Japan has the root of kendo.

[masamune]

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete-Acropolis/6963/english.html

This site will explicate how Kendo, the Japanese fencing, has gone through centuries of development to become what it is today, and demonstrate how groundless and preposterous some Koeans' insistence about the origin of kendo is. They are intentionally fabricating and distorting the history of kendo. Just with paraphrasing kendo into kumdo and replacing kendo terminology with korean pronauceation, they are propagandizing kumdo is a Korean original culture and deceiving many people in USA and other countries. Moreover, reciting their elfish ideals , they do not follow the ideals of the kendo quite as the rest of the world does. Most of kumdo leaders' argument are nationalistic, and a considerable amount of revisionist history can be found regarding kumdo. It seems to be due to Korean national sentiments against past Japanese rule. We worry about the extension of the false rumor in contradiction to the historical fact,and protest against the intrigue filled with malice.

[Khabbi]

take a chill pill :smiley:

[gUnDaL]

WOW!! you "protest"!!!! i protest that you are a dumbass so stop complaining because you cant do anything about it

[Katsuya]

WOW!! you "protest"!!!! i protest that you are a dumbass so stop complaining because you cant do anything about it

We got your message, so what about koreans, whats wrong with the pronounciations that the koreans are using, or is it that you are racist. Im not bashing on you,or it might be that im not taking your message to correctly.

[xvikingx]

日本の人種問題を要らない！

[aru-ma]

We've heard this one a million times before, there are more than enough threads like this in this forum with both sides of the argument and personally I'm tired of seeing new kendo v kumdo thread poping up now and then, please put your argument on an existing thread.

[Shiro]

I think this link has already been posted on this forum too. But it's just for the sake of information, not to flame you :D.

[Hai_hai]

One post by this member.

Fortunately, Japan has the root of ninja. HAI-YAAA!

[JimB]

日本の人種問題を要らない！
Ok, I am learning the Hiragana and Katakana and I have been trying to decipher your post for some time now. I know the romanji for some of the following:
日 - ?
本 - ?
の - no
人 - ? (kanji for person?)
種 - ?
問 - ?
題 - ?
を - wo
要 - ?
ら - ra
な - na
い - i
I have no idea what the kanji are. Please post a translation as I would love to know what it is you said. :)

[Ben F.]

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete-Acropolis/6963/english.html

Moreover, reciting their elfish ideals , they do not follow the ideals of the kendo quite as the rest of the world does. Most of kumdo leaders' argument are nationalistic, and a considerable amount of revisionist history can be found regarding kumdo.

OK...first of all, try spell check. "...elfish ideals..." I thought you were talking about Koreans not Elves.

Secondly, Koreans are hardly the only ones guilty of rewriting history to meet their own nationalistic desires. Rape of Nanking ring a bell with anyone?

[Hattori Hanzo]

Does it matter?

Personally to me it seems like the whole.....Taco Bell is not real mexican food! No it's not it's Americanized mexican food, same could said of Kumdo it's Koreanized Kendo, maybe it does have it's own roots? Of course the only thing taco bell roots you to is the toilet seat.

[xvikingx]

日 - ni
本 - honn
の - no
人 - jin
種 - shu
問 - monn
題 - dai
を - wo
要 - i
ら - ra
な - na
い - i

Do you want me to translate further or would that be giving it away?

[Yowai]

Why in the bloody hell would the "root" of Kendo matter to any reasonable person?


Most of kumdo leaders' argument are nationalistic
As opposed to Japanese Kendoists? You crack me up.

[Shiro]

As opposed to Japanese Kendoists? You crack me up.

I went to the Nakakura Cup & winter seminar in Brussels, among the japanese delegation members there were 5 or 6 hachidan, a couple of nanadan and a whole bunch of rokudan. And there was Sagawa sensei (9th dan iaidoka who was in the military before and during ww2)...... They wouldn't have bothered to come over if they were really nationalistic.......

[xvikingx]

I went to the Nakakura Cup & winter seminar in Brussels, among the japanese delegation members there were 5 or 6 hachidan, a couple of nanadan and a whole bunch of rokudan. And there was Sagawa sensei (9th dan iaidoka who was in the military before and during ww2)...... They wouldn't have bothered to come over if they were really nationalistic.......
Not necessarily... Yukio Mishima, a kind of nationalistic Japanese fella' :silly: , traveled all over the "Western" world, had his books translated into foriegn languages, and often addressed foriegn guests.

[Shiro]

Not necessarily... Yukio Mishima, a kind of nationalistic Japanese fella' :silly: , traveled all over the "Western" world, had his books translated into foriegn languages, and often addressed foriegn guests.

Wasn't he the one that committed seppuku in the 60's or 70's?

[xvikingx]

That's the guy.

[Shiro]

I doubt he did that for fun....... someone knows why he did it?

[xvikingx]

That is more than I care to write. Check out the link in my other failed thread Yukio Mishima (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1674&highlight=yukio+mishima) or read some of his books.

[mingshi]

Early in the morning, Mishima addresses the envelope containing the final installment of "The Decay of the Angel" the final volume of his life-work "The Sea of Fertility" (which had taken him six years to write) to his publisher and places it on a table in his foyer. At 10 a.m. he phones a couple of reporter friends and asks them to come to Ichigaya. At 11 a.m. Mishima and his four cadets arrive at the Ichigaya Headquarters of the Eastern Army. He steps onto the balcony and reads his "Manifesto" trying to rouse the soldiers to take action and rise up to save Japan, but is mostly unheard and jeered. After shouting "Long Live His Majesty the Emperor!" three times, Mishima commits seppuku (ritual disembowelment) in the office of General Kanetoshi Mashita at 12:15 p.m. Morita tries three times to ritually behead Mishima but fails; the head is finally severed by Hiroyasu Koga. Morita (25 years old), then tries to follow Mishima in committing seppuku; although the cut is much too shallow to be fatal, he gives the signal, upon which Koga also ritually beheads Morita. The Mishima Incident is over. (Nov 20, 1970)
...brought to you by The Yukio Mishima Cyber Museum (http://www.vill.yamanakako.yamanashi.jp/bungaku/mishima/index-e.html)

Looking at the root of anything is, as everyone says, "why does it matter?". Maybe I should dig up "China has the root of Japanese Architecture"? This is a meaningless statement. What am I trying to justisify by saying it? There is a Chinese saying, I forget the exact wordings, but it was from Nganzi(sp?), "When planted in the North of the river, Mandarins taste bitter." The soil is different, and you can't expect the taste is the same.

Nationalistic people are everywhere. Another level of that is patriotism. An extreme level is xenophobia and racism. The question is, can you put the love of your country/race into something positive for the others? Do you want to spread your national cultural activity (such as Kendo) to different parts of the world, or do you only think people in your own country is worth learning these things? Time to be considerate, and stop being tunnel-vision! :evolved:

In the meantime, for those who haven't read the research paper on Kumdo vs Kendo, please check KW online (http://www.kendo-world.com)...

[mystic_kendoka]

wat was the rape of nanking? and what does 日本の人種問題を要らない mean?

anyways im korean, so that'll affect my view quite seriously, but anyway i think kendo is kendo and kumdo is also kendo... that sounded lame... wat i mean is i think kumdo comes from kendo... there..

or rather what i also think is, and maybe i read it somewhere too, that kumdo has korean roots but was only a form of iaido with bokutos. haedong kumdo i think it was called, then when japan invaded korea, the bogu and shinai were introduced, and therefore kumdo which was a non contact art, became a full contact sport... like modern kendo...

so the roots of kendo is from japan, and the roots of kumdo is from korea... i think that leaves everyone happy.. doesnt it? ;)

[Dan Shea]

There is a Chinese saying, I forget the exact wordings, but it was from Nganzi(sp?), "When planted in the North of the river, Mandarins taste bitter." The soil is different, and you can't expect the taste is the same.
It's funny because that saying has to do with the Canton people being angry at the northerners who essentially came in and usurped authority. (At least if my teachers and sources are correct)

or rather what i also think is, and maybe i read it somewhere too, that kumdo has korean roots but was only a form of iaido with bokutos. haedong kumdo i think it was called, then when japan invaded korea, the bogu and shinai were introduced, and therefore kumdo which was a non contact art, became a full contact sport... like modern kendo...
Actually I think it went more along the lines of...Japan invades Korea teaching Koreans kendo, and decades later Korea tries to justify kendo to its populattion who is angry at Japan for being occupied as claiming some kind of heritage from Hwa-rang warriors who while actually existing, have nothing to do with kendo. It was a political rewriting of history to benefit nationalist causes.

It's not very interesting, as it is a tired same old thing countries have been doing for centuries. Just imagine what England would say if America claimed to have invented English...

Total BS for politcal reasons in my book means double plus ungood!!!!!

Oh well...have a good night people!

[Yowai]

"1) i wouldn't be talking about spelling mistakes if i were you..
2) most people here do kendo not kenjutsu..
3) i am korean, and kendo originally comes from korea, and the japanese stole it (among loads of other things) when they occupied korea for 50 years, through dictatorship and torture.. the origin of the japanese sword it self is n 80% copy of the korean blade, the art in which to use it was made in korea, so dont u go and f**king start about japanese honour..."
(mystic_kendo http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30173#post30173)


Hahahahahahahahahahahaha. Nice try mystic_kendo, but your idiocy really stood out this time.

[mystic_kendoka]

thank you...

[Eldritch Knight]

Having studied kendo in Japan, I tend to agree that it originated in Japan. I've seen kumdo being practiced (as a matter of fact, I'm adjusting to it right now, with a small amount of discomfort) and find it to be very similar to Japanese kendo, but with a more Korean touch to it (less emphasis on respect, fortitude, and higher powers, and more emphasis on strength, agility, and ability). As far as I've seen, it lacks the soul that I see as integral in kendo, and replaces it with a more militaristic edge. Of course, I don't claim to be an expert on either, but I adhere to this view based on what experiences and understanding I do have.

[Yowai]

Respect, fortitude, higher powers, and soul? Spoken like a true tea-sipping Wapanese Kendo zealot. Wake up from your sick anime samurai fantasies...

Ack. I just can't do it as nicely as Confound.

Anyways, nevermind claiming not to be an expert, Eldritch, because I would be more worried about your pea-sized anime rotten brain.

[mystic_kendoka]

i'd say kumdo is more competitive and focusses on shiai (shihap) more than kendo as well... i agree when you say it lacks respect and etiquette...

[Ben F.]

wat was the rape of nanking? and what does ???????????? mean?

I was offering that particular event as an example of the Japnese's own use of revistionist history, since that is what the thread's initiator seems to be so upset about.

As for what it was, here you go:

http://www.tribo.org/nanking/

Probably don't need to go any further than the picture on the homepage.

[Old Warrior]

My anecdotal experience tells me that most Kumdo Dojangs are operated for profit (the one I attend is this way). And, the fees we pay are probably 4 times the amount of most Non Profit Dojo's. From what I can see, our school is run with plenty of respect and overwhelming politeness, but without rigidity. There would be no point in being unkind or overly harsh to the paying students.

I have been corrected many times for mispronounciations, and then unknown breaches of etiquette (leaning my shinai against the wall, touching the tip to the ground, etc.). But, there is never punishment or such strict discipline that it reminds me of my military service.

[Keith Hong]

An example of how Kumdo people view what they do.
When Kumdo people ask you, in Korean, how long you've been practicing Kumdo - they say "how long have you been working out?"
It's like lifting weights at the gym to them.
Definitely not 'budo'.

P.S. I am a Korean living in Korea going to a Kumdo Dojang - I know what I speak of.

[xvikingx]

Keith,

How do you view kumdo/ kendo? I noticed that you call it kendo in your profile.

[Old Warrior]

Last week I patronized a local business owned by Korean immigrants. The owner, a very distinguished looking woman in her fifties was having a discussion with a customer about her son's taekwondo class. I joined in and said, I wish I was younger, I'd love to participate. Somewhere in the conversation I mentioned that I had studied Kumdo for some time and the woman commented:

Oh, a very classical art, takes much more concentration and skill to
learn than taekwondo. Very good for the mind.

Now, I am no linguist, but here was the impression of someone who did not appear to be involved in the martial arts but was giving an outsider's view. This person obviously held the pursuit in some special regard.

[samurai999]

Respect, fortitude, higher powers, and soul? Spoken like a true tea-sipping Wapanese Kendo zealot.

I don't about you, but kendo has taught me about respect. How? To respect the people who teach you, to respect the people who take care of you, to respect the things around you, and to respect my ancestors before me.

About soul? I wouldn't put it that way, but it has taught me what it takes to overcome some of my hardships. Hardships such as me getting laid off and rupturing my achilles. It gave me the right state of mind to proceed past those times in my life and to succeed.

Sounds cheesy? Maybe to you, but I think kendo has taught me many things to apply in life as well as in practice. According to what was said by Mr Hong, maybe this is the difference between kumdo and kendo.

Tea sipping? Oh yeah. Green tea calms my nerves, it is healthy for you, and it reduces your risk of getting cancer later in life.

Tim

[litige]

Well said Tim. For long we heard yowai reply on stupid comments...

[mero]

Masamune, you are a racist propagandist.

Kumdo as it is practiced in dojangs and competitions are indeed Japanese in origin.

But this site reaks of WWII Japanese Empire glorifying revisionism and ethnocentric racism that is plaguing Japanese politics and mainstream culture these days. What a disgusting site.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete-Acropolis/6963/english.html

This site will explicate how Kendo, the Japanese fencing, has gone through centuries of development to become what it is today, and demonstrate how groundless and preposterous some Koeans' insistence about the origin of kendo is. They are intentionally fabricating and distorting the history of kendo. Just with paraphrasing kendo into kumdo and replacing kendo terminology with korean pronauceation, they are propagandizing kumdo is a Korean original culture and deceiving many people in USA and other countries. Moreover, reciting their elfish ideals , they do not follow the ideals of the kendo quite as the rest of the world does. Most of kumdo leaders' argument are nationalistic, and a considerable amount of revisionist history can be found regarding kumdo. It seems to be due to Korean national sentiments against past Japanese rule. We worry about the extension of the false rumor in contradiction to the historical fact,and protest against the intrigue filled with malice.

[mystic_kendoka]

lets stop talking about this then...

PS wat does masamune mean? is it a sword? in FFTA its a katana..

[Musha]

I think he was a person :).

[hobbit]

Wasn't he a noted swordsmith?

[mystic_kendoka]

it would help if the user masamune would bother to answer.. oh well.. i was thinking about this thread "japan has the root of kendo"

and i found the reply "korea has the leaves, branches, stem ,bark and flowers of kendo" :devious:

[samurai999]

http://www.samurai-archives.com/masamune.html

here's what i found about masamune. Seemed like a swordsman to me. :)

As for roots. Trees can't grow without roots. :D

Tim

[mystic_kendoka]

which would u prefer? roots? or flowers?

another way of thinking

what are you more likely to present to your wife/girl friend? flowers? or carrots?

[kendosa]

The way of sword to the free of mind to win finally, was there in many places.
Why do we use bogu, sinai and some Japanese terms because it's good tool here to use on the way of sword.

It's good right?

It's better everybody's.

It's influenced by many oriental cultures which are not originated from Japan.
Like "zen" from china which are ideas combined and born from Buddism and Toaism.

And I always bow to respect the exellent Japanese kendo stlye.

Is true love of kendo partially blind? Please let it free.

[samurai999]

Point is.. I don't look at the finished product all the time (though it is usually what we want). I just try to appreciate where the stuff came from. Its easy to look at the end result and say "cool!", but without the root, none of this stuff would be available.

As for girlfriends, flowers, but seeds, maybe, if you imply that you're gonna be with her for a while i guess. Anybody with a girlfriend care to add? LOL :D

Tim

[mystic_kendoka]

seeds... i do hope for your sake that you havent tried this..

[Snobody]

i was thinking about this thread "japan has the root of kendo"
and i found the reply "korea has the leaves, branches, stem ,bark and flowers of kendo" :devious: But you can't claim that Japan lacks leaves and branches and all that gunk too. So the analogy can go something like this: There are two plants, one with roots and one without. In the ground they both look the same, but once a strong gust of wind comes along I think the rootless one just might topple over.
To take this a tad further, one could say that Kendo has both the above the surface plant parts-the literal whacking of sticks, and the roots that give it strength- tradition and respect grounded in history. Whereas Kumdo is the art and science of whacking sticks. Does it acheive the same thing as Kendo? In terms of smacking people with bamboo rods, yes. But once you want more than that...

Then again there's always the case where a stem cut off from another plant is stuck into the earth and it grows its own roots...that seems to be the case with the revisionist history given to Kumdo. It's all well and good, but I think that credit should be given where it's due. Kendo is Japanese, and it's hard tio say otherwise.

Flowers are pretty, but roots hold earth together.

By the way, if your girlfriend happens to be a gardener, she might appreciate seeds.:wink:

[samurai999]

seeds... i do hope for your sake that you havent tried this..

Thats where your words try to eloquently explain why you did this. LOL :D


Tim

[Hotei]

Personally, I wouldn't care if Kendo had originated in Cuba or on Mars. The lessons, the discipline, the excersize, the head rush, the pounding heart, these things would still be the same. . . At least for me.

I guess it does kind of come down to "Are you in it because it's Japanese?" If not, I wouldn't think it would matter. If so, will you quit if someday, someone comes forth with rock-solid evidence that Kendo originated someplace else? Or will you take it, in it's contemporary Japanese* form and run with it?

*(I'm not insinuating that I have knowledge one way or the other. The Kendo I study is Japanese; That's what I know.)