Traditionnal School

[Nagi David]

in this book : Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions
by Ellis Amdur. The author seems to say, as far as I understand well, that Atarashii Naginata is more a sport than a martial art. This way of practising Naginata with bogu is quite poor compare to the diversity of movement of the old school. He even says it's a shame that hits need 3 shimpan to be judge, because the fighters receive so many hits that are not valid, that in a real fight he would have been dead for a long time.

Don't you think that fight would be more interesting if fighters had to defend all the hits?

[Jakob Ryngen]

One problem is that the shiai-naginata is so light that it is too easy to hit with it. The shinpan have to decide whether a hit a valid naginata technique or just a touch with a stick. A heavier naginata would solve that problem somewhat but also make the sport more dangerous especially if the whole body would be a datotsu. I think it is possible to make some changes in the rules, such as changing to a heavier naginata and allowing more datotsu, to make naginata more "realistic" and interesting.

[R A Sosnowski]

Very good points, David and Jakob.



in this book : Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions by Ellis Amdur. The author seems to say, as far as I understand well, that Atarashii Naginata is more a sport than a martial art. This way of practising Naginata with bogu is quite poor compare to the diversity of movement of the old school. He even says it's a shame that hits need 3 shimpan to be judge, because the fighters receive so many hits that are not valid, that in a real fight he would have been dead for a long time.

Don't you think that fight would be more interesting if fighters had to defend all the hits?

At least Naginata Jigeiko has some defense; Kendo Jigeiko seems to have almost none. However, Naginata follows Kendo - it is "fencing" and not "dueling." I do agree with David - I would like to see a better balance between the offensive and defensive techniques.



One problem is that the shiai-naginata is so light that it is too easy to hit with it. The shinpan have to decide whether a hit a valid naginata technique or just a touch with a stick. A heavier naginata would solve that problem somewhat but also make the sport more dangerous especially if the whole body would be a datotsu. I think it is possible to make some changes in the rules, such as changing to a heavier naginata and allowing more datotsu, to make naginata more "realistic" and interesting.

As Jakob and I both know (both of us being rather large specimens of humanity :D ), Shiai-naginata are pitifully light compared to a real Naginata (analogous to a Shinai compared to a Katana/Shinken). Lightness is part of safety, and yet this same lightness allows for unrealistic techniques in order to score "legal points" that could not be done with live or replica wooden weapons.

With Naginata embedded in the Phys. Ed. curricula of Japanese schools, I don't think we'll see the introductions of more realistic weight weapons in the future.

However, I think that both Kendo and Naginata can take a lesson from Western Fencing. The first step in Fencing in foil. It is unrealistic, given its rules of give and take, but it allows one to practice the basics in a controlled setting using a lighter-than-normal weapon. As I see it, Jigeiko/Shiai in both Naginata and Kendo, as they are currently practiced, are analogous to Foil Fencing. What we need is the development of analogues of Saber and Epee fencing - there are more targets available, weapons are a more realistic size & weight, and defence is as important as, if not more important than, offense.

One place to look is the pre-WWII practices; I know Kendo was more realistic and I suspect that Naginata was too.

FWIW.

[Khabbi]

Another question to ask is the "fun factor"
Kendo and Naginata are both fun ( I never tried Naginata but I guess its fun).
Would the realism of new heavier weapons and new point areas make it more or less fun ?

With heavier weapons and new point areas , there would be a need for more and maybe better pads and protection , a whole new bogu with more parts .With more bogu , you would be less flexible , taking away some of the douling feeling ( if u ask me ) .

But more strike areas would be in a way more like in the old days , faster matches with less of crashing together stuff ( kendo) . It would make the shiais "cleaner" , but the new bogu would sett it back one step because of its clumsieness

if this makes any sense at all , plz send 1$ to Happy dude ( simpson joke) :smiley:

[xvikingx]

One place to look is the pre-WWII practices; I know Kendo was more realistic and I suspect that Naginata was too.

FWIW.
I often wonder what pre-war naginata was like. For some reason I always had this image of it always being koryu style. If sensei has some time tomorrow night I will inquire.
As far as fun factor goes, I enjoy just how it is. However I like what Mr. Sosnowski had to say about giving it more of epee/ sabre feel. I think I would enjoy that.

[R A Sosnowski]

I often wonder what pre-war naginata was like. For some reason I always had this image of it always being koryu style. If sensei has some time tomorrow night I will inquire.
As far as fun factor goes, I enjoy just how it is. However I like what Mr. Sosnowski had to say about giving it more of epee/ sabre feel. I think I would enjoy that.

I have two old books (pre-WWII) on Naginata, one on Tendo Ryu and the other on Jiki-shinkage Ryu. From the pictures in both, is is evident that Isshu Jiai was a common practice. It is unclear if there was also Naginata vs. Naginata (I need a good translator for the text).

There is a Datotsu diagram in the latter book; in addition to the strikes we are familiar with, this one also includes the front and center of the Do (presumably as Tsuki), and either side of the neck on the Men flaps.

[IsahoNaginata]

I would definately like to see matches in which heavier wooden weapons were used. I have actually known guys who practice kendo using shinai without the bogu. They just agree to not strike at the head of collar. I have also been hit by shinai unarmored before and the experience was really not all that bad - though admittedly the person doing the striking was not kendoka.

I think the added danger of using wooden weapons such as bokken and wooden naginata instead of lighter bamboo weapons could be offset by improving the materials that the bogu is constructed from. I have been wanting to see bogu made using very light but highly durable and protective plastics for a quite some time now.

I think that by making weapons out of wood and other such materials and that by making bogu out of -lighter- but more durable and protective materials the pracitce of the sport would be greatly improved and more striking points could be used and even more technique brought in. I would certainly enjoy it even more then. :)

I think that bogu designed in the fashion of ashigaru armor would be much more efficient at protecting the body in such a match than the bogu design that is currently in use today. There is just a greater range of movement in ashigaru style armor.

[kendophx]

... It is unclear if there was also Naginata vs. Naginata ...

I do not believe that Naginata on Naginata was that common.

Naginata was mainly a stationary defense, i.e. line up around the castle and defend the gates. The attackers would come in three waves. First wave; soften everybody up with archery. Second wave; cavalry charge meaning maybe some naginata on horseback vs. naginata on the ground (but usually yari and tachi were the weapons of choice on horseback.). Third wave; hack your way in, using mostly swords, and thereafter the battle plan degenerates into fire and chaos.

Remember also, many castles included twisting entries/paths that would make actually carrying in a naginata offensively very difficult. You would have to pull the ebu vertical just to turn a corner.

In Tokogawa era, most fighting was street brawling between 2 swordsmen. The police had witch collars that are fairly long. But think about Japanese cities. They have very narrow streets, not much room for two naginata-no-hito to line up and go at it.

By the time of the Meiji era, Japanese were experimenting with things like western education (including PE). Atarashii naginata is more closely related to the development of universal education than it is to the continuation of a koryu. Consider the lack of coeducation in Meiji era. Most of the teachers of upper class girls, conducted in a single sex educational environment, were themselves daughters of samurai families who had learned koryu styles of naginata. All the students in those single sex settings were learning naginata, with the teachers taking on the role of “bushi” swordsman, for the koryu techniques. Naginata vs. naginata gave the girls an enjoyable way to actually practice their techniques in a competitive setting, just as in Europe women vs. women competitive sports were seen as a healthier alternative to a corseted and sedentary lifestyle previously prescribed for upper class women.

[R A Sosnowski]

I would definately like to see matches in which heavier wooden weapons were used. I have actually known guys who practice kendo using shinai without the bogu. They just agree to not strike at the head of collar. I have also been hit by shinai unarmored before and the experience was really not all that bad - though admittedly the person doing the striking was not kendoka.
...


Just as an aside, there is a group of folks out there who do not practice Kendo, but use Shinai as a fencing weapon without Bogu. Check out shinai.org (http://www.shinai.org/) or Rossmoor Shinai (http://www.geocities.com/rossmoorshinai/). Reading the "Rules" is both interesting and enlightening.

I wonder if there are groups out there doing the same thing with Shiai-naginata.



I think the added danger of using wooden weapons such as bokken and wooden naginata instead of lighter bamboo weapons could be offset by improving the materials that the bogu is constructed from. I have been wanting to see bogu made using very light but highly durable and protective plastics for a quite some time now.
...


I kind of get the same effect doing the Kata of Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo. We do the Kata with intent. There were at least two threads in the Jodo section on e-Budo.com about Jodo and armored practice:


Have you guys ever put on Kali armor and gone ape on each other? (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23695) and
Randori question (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15520)


Enjoy.

[R A Sosnowski]

I do not believe that Naginata on Naginata was that common.

[SNIP HISTORY lesson :D]


Sorry. That is not the question I was asking. Let's look at the quote again.



I have two old books (pre-WWII) on Naginata, one on Tendo Ryu and the other on Jiki-shinkage Ryu. From the pictures in both, is is evident that Isshu Jiai was a common practice. It is unclear if there was also Naginata vs. Naginata (I need a good translator for the text).


In the context of pre-WWII Koryu Naginata practice, I wonder if there was any Naginata v. Naginata in Jigeiko using Bogu.

There were a few Naginata v. Naginata Kata in at least one of the Koryu (Toda-ha Buko-ryu).

Consider that if I have a bunch of people in Bogu with either Shinai or Shiai-naginata, and they pair off there are three possibilities:


Shinai vs. Shiai-naginata (Isshu Jiai)
Shinai vs. Shinai (Kendo)
Shiai-naginata vs. Shiai-naginata


I wonder if this last possibility occured in pre-WWII Koryu practice in styles with and without Naginata vs. Naginata Kata.

HTH.

[xvikingx]

I have two old books (pre-WWII) on Naginata, one on Tendo Ryu and the other on Jiki-shinkage Ryu. From the pictures in both, is is evident that Isshu Jiai was a common practice. It is unclear if there was also Naginata vs. Naginata (I need a good translator for the text).
So they did have a shiai style keiko in addition to the koryuu kata practice? About the book; if you are able to fax or email me a portion of the book(s) I could give it a whirl. I translated a chunk of the handbook, Mrs. Hashimoto acceptance speech, and Mr. Kondo's speech at the 2003 WNC. It would be good practice and a good read.


There is a Datotsu diagram in the latter book; in addition to the strikes we are familiar with, this one also includes the front and center of the Do (presumably as Tsuki), and either side of the neck on the Men flaps.
Sounds like fun. I imagine the neck shots would not feel too good though.

[R A Sosnowski]

So they did have a shiai style keiko in addition to the koryuu kata practice? About the book; if you are able to fax or email me a portion of the book(s) I could give it a whirl. I translated a chunk of the handbook, Mrs. Hashimoto acceptance speech, and Mr. Kondo's speech at the 2003 WNC. It would be good practice and a good read.

Please send me your e-dress in a PM and we can continue this off-forum.

[kendophx]

... that Atarashii Naginata is more a sport than a martial art. ...
I have read several of Mr. Ellis' books. He has nothing kind to say about modern kendoo either. I enjoy his books for the depth of experience they contain, but filter out what I perceive as sneering.

The argument of koryu vs. atarashii is a religious one and has no single answer that will satisfy everyone. For me it is kendoo, for you it may be chadoo. I promise not to attack your teahouse with my sword, if you promise not to throw hot tea in my dojo.

As to how to keep kendoo true to its origins of demonstrating skill with a sword, my suggestion was to have every shinsa candidate perform tameshigiri. It is very difficult to treat kendoo as playing tag with sticks when you have to place equal importance on the practice of actually cutting something.

{And yes, the folks at the grocery store always wonder why I buy my pumpkins after Halloween!}

I believe that every kendoist has something to learn from the koryu. But remember, the people who invented kendoo, as a way of demonstrating their skill against swordsmen from other schools, were the people who actually depended on the koryu for their livelihood. Why would a modern bugeisha know better than they do?

I also know that if kendoo returned to it pre-war form involving legs sweeps, body throws, et cetera, I would have to give it up. As a 5’3” female, I do not stand a chance against such full body contact … why I’d probably want to use a longer weapon than a 3.8 shinai to keep those “rather large specimens of humanity” away from me in competition …. Hmmm. Where might I find a longer, bladed weapon? Hmmmm.

[xvikingx]

Will do...

[kendophx]

Sorry. That is not the question I was asking. ...

I'm sorry I misunderstood your question. I hope you get some answers from the translation of your material.

[xvikingx]

As a 5’3” female...
I knew I knew you! Since you seem to be so intent on keep you identity a secret I will just call you A&W. After I help you out with your shikake-oji before your exam at the WNC you can't even say "hi". I'm hurt. Next time we meet we are doing jigeiko.
:devious:
Even Isahonaginata, who studies in SoCal, wouldn't tell me where she practices. What's up with that? Are you guys (ladies) worried you will be "found out" or something. Hell, at the last shingetsukai taikai/thingy Tanaka-sensei still brought up the time I mixed words with Mr. Sosnowski and Marcia Toyohara. Who cares?! The whole point of the forums is to bring the budo community a little closer.
A&W, you broke my heart. :cry:

[IsahoNaginata]

I'm sorry, I did not know that you asked. :(

As of this (or next) Saturday I will begin training all over again at the Pasadena Cultural Centre, assuming that Mikuni-Sensei allows me into her class of course.

I am still very new to naginata in general though, so I do not think I will be matching with anyone anytime soon! :) Though I do have some experience chinese weapons such as the horse cutter so if someone -really- wanted to I suppose I could make use of my naginata in -that- fashion... heh... :D

[xvikingx]

I'm sorry, I did not know that you asked. :(
No worries. I was half-way screwing around. I sent you a PM a while back but I guess you didn't get it. Tell Mikuni sensei I say hi! (My name is Leiv. Pronouced just like Leif with a long A sound) She is such a nice lady. I attended both the Gardena and Torrance dojos but I trained with Mikuni sensei a few times on Saturdays just before I moved. Good luck and have fun with naginata! Also make sure you go to the SCNF seminar in August; you will learn so much and you can test for kyuu grades.

[Nagi David]

R A Sosnowski
could you send it to me too by email : daviddhose@yahoo.com
thanks...

[Jakob Ryngen]

There is a Datotsu diagram in the latter book; in addition to the strikes we are familiar with, this one also includes the front and center of the Do (presumably as Tsuki), and either side of the neck on the Men flaps.
Really interesting stuff! I have been told that the mune (upper part of the do) once was a datotsu even in Atarashii Naginata and then mainly for tsuki. The problem with that area is that it does not make a sound on impact and it hard to judge. We use if for fun though! The shikake ooji waza does imply that the back once was a datotsu but I do not know how (and if) it was protected.
The main difference from Monbushu and Atarashii Naginata would be that a solid (and thus heavier) naginata was used in shiai.

[R A Sosnowski]

I have two old books (pre-WWII) on Naginata, one on Tendo Ryu and the other on Jiki-shinkage Ryu. From the pictures in both, is is evident that Isshu Jiai was a common practice. It is unclear if there was also Naginata vs. Naginata (I need a good translator for the text).

There is a Datotsu diagram in the latter book; in addition to the strikes we are familiar with, this one also includes the front and center of the Do (presumably as Tsuki), and either side of the neck on the Men flaps.

I found two Datotsu diagrams in the former book. The second diagram looks just like one for Atarashii Naginata. The first diagram is a sight to behold. I count 28 points all together (Atarashii Naginata has 12 total: Shomen, right & left Sokumen, right & left Kote, right & left Do, right and left outside-Sune, right & left inside-Sune, and Tsuki to Nodo).

Additional points in the first diagram include:


right & left Yokomen (side of the head on the edge of the grill)
right & left Men-baton (cloth part of the Men) at the junction of the neck and shoulders
right & left sides at the level where the Mune (embroidered part of the Do) meets the body of the Do [I looks like the Pec's to me - it's not on the Mune but just off]
right & left upper arms (between the shoulder and elbow)
the right & left sides of the Tare just below the Do and above the side flaps of the Tare
the right & left undersides of the Kote
the right and left mitt (the top of the hand part)
the front center of the Do just below the Mune
the center flap of the Tare where the Zekken goes.


I'm definitely going to send this off for a translation - it will be very interesting to know what the context is here.

Curiouser and curiouser.

[AlexM]

in this book : Old School: Essays on Japanese Martial Traditions
by Ellis Amdur. The author seems to say, as far as I understand well, that Atarashii Naginata is more a sport than a martial art. This way of practising Naginata with bogu is quite poor compare to the diversity of movement of the old school. He even says it's a shame that hits need 3 shimpan to be judge, because the fighters receive so many hits that are not valid, that in a real fight he would have been dead for a long time.


These are the same people that will tell you that kendo is not budo because it's not "'realistic". Just tell them to grow up and stop being obsessed with their fantasies about killing people in a "real" fight.

Does naginata stress that practice is good for a person's personal development? Then it's budo, end of story. They can take they're objections to the Japanese if they insist on it.

These people think that you can only improve yourself through knowing how to "kill" someone with medieval weaponry. The Japanese have outgrown this attitude: Why are so many Westerners still clinging to it?

Sorry for my slightly off-topic rant.

[kendophx]

...
the right & left undersides of the Kote ...


I always ASSuME'd these were valid if the naginata-no-hito was out of chudan.

{If a kendo-ka steps out of chudan, the underside of the kote is valid; e.g. you can go for kote on a person fighting from jo-dan}

Is this not the case?

The tsuki to the Do just below the Mune was a valid kendo point for many years. I was told IKF eliminated it on grounds of safety. If you hit and hold a little too high, the tip will ride the curvature of the Do and the tip can go under the throat guard, even if the kendo-ka has his chin tucked.

[R A Sosnowski]

I always ASSuME'd these [the right & left undersides of the Kote] were valid if the naginata-no-hito was out of chudan.

{If a kendo-ka steps out of chudan, the underside of the kote is valid; e.g. you can go for kote on a person fighting from jo-dan}

Is this not the case?


Good Question. The AJNF booklet on "Naginata Tournament Regulations" is no help here; Articles 18, DATOTSU (Strike) Spots, and 19, YUKO DATOTSU (Valid Strike), just say 'Kote.' In the AJNF "Sports V Course - Naginata," translated into English by Dr. Alex Bennett, the Datotsu diagram on p. 30 does not clearly indicate the spots. However, in the Japanese version, "Naginata Kyoshitsu," the Kote is clearly marked as that point in the wrist-guard just behind the mitt on the upper side.

As I have not yet began Shimpan training (this Summer), I do not know for sure. I do know, however, that Kote is one of the rarely called points in Shiai.




The tsuki to the Do just below the Mune was a valid kendo point for many years. I was told IKF eliminated it on grounds of safety. If you hit and hold a little too high, the tip will ride the curvature of the Do and the tip can go under the throat guard, even if the kendo-ka has his chin tucked.

The Ishizuki-tsuki in Naginata was also eliminated several years ago using similar reasoning - a slightly low strike would ride up the Mune and under the Nodo tab.

[kendophx]

... After I help you out with your shikake-oji before your exam at the WNC you can't even say "hi". I'm hurt. ...

Gomen Kudasai.

Leiv who Left - I assure you it was not intentional.

I have tried all of the e-ddresses I knew for you before you left SoCal, so we could take our personal greetings off-line. None of them seem to work.

I will check with Sensei and try again.

[kendophx]

.... Don't you think that fight would be more interesting if fighters had to defend all the hits?

I know of some kendo sensei who have this kind of intra-dojo competition. I was told it can get pretty fast and furious, but never have seen it personally. (And how frequent of an occurance, I do not know either.)

Sensei's reasoning for this type of training: teach the kendo-ka to focus.

From a competitive point of view, you never want to loose a match because you thought a men was safely too far off-center to be point quality, then have your opponent snap it in at the last split seond, with you just standing there.

With any hit being point quality, you must react instead of think. {With me being an analytical type, sensei is ALWAYS chiding me "Fight don't think!". My response "Can I think about that and get back with you?" :rolleyes:}

I had the opportunity to ask the sensei if this meant the quality of the attacks would go down as people cast good form aside just to hit. This is how I understood his response, so if I misrepresent him, I apologize in advance...

1)If the form is so easily cast aside, the attacker really doesn't know the form. So this should be a lesson for them to pay attention to form during next practice.

2)Things that are "over refined" stagnate and die and he did not want this fate for kendo. {Although this is where the too-light-to-be-realistic shinai problem really comes into play.}

I assume a similiar lesson could be learned from a 1-hit/1-point naginata shiai.

The counter point of view was a dan women's match I saw in SoCal. One of the competitors threw a hasty tsuki, and the receiver, a very strong kenshi, just stood poised and unshakable in chu-dan while her opponent's shinai wiggled purposelessly against her do. If it were a "real sword" she would have had to react, yes. But in its own "bamboo and leather sword" way, it was a beautiful display.