New Kendo kata in UK

[Musha]

Hi all, I was thinking of posting this a wile ago but after reading the BKA news letter I thought I would ask people what they thought. Last year some one came to another Dojyo I go to now and again and said he wanted to show us the new Kata that Sumi sensei a high ranking Japanese sensei that leads most Seminar in the UK. The News letter says

"For some years now Masatake Sumi sensei has been developing new ways to aid in the instruction of beginners. On the kodokan seminar a few years ago each of the participating teams was asked to develop forms that could be used to help teach the basics of kendo.

After considerable research in Japan and abroad Sumi sensei has influenced the development of new methods and a set of kihon specifically designed to prepare students for shinai kendo in armour. These methods and the kihon were introduced to the UK during the 2003 kodokan seminar."

Then it goes on to saying what the forms are http://www.kendo.org.uk/newsevents/newsletter/february04/

I really don't understand why we have to learn to do normal strikes with a bokken in forms when what we had before doing them with shinai against a partner in armour. I like the traditional kata and feel that if you look at it, you will understand all the basics of kendo.

What are other peoples views on this?

[Dan Shea]

I really don't understand why we have to learn to do normal strikes with a bokken in forms when what we had before doing them with shinai against a partner in armour. I like the traditional kata and feel that if you look at it, you will understand all the basics of kendo.

Hi Musha,

The use of bokuto in paired kata has several purposes:

Traditionally koryu use paired kata with bokuto as their primary training method since Kendo armor did not exist.

Using a bokuto is much closer to using a sword than a shinai is. The length, weight and overall balance are closer to that of a shinken.

In order to learn proper form for cutting the use of a bokuto as a training aid helps immeasurably as compared to a shinai. A shinai is a great training tool for using as a striking implement against an armored opponent, but it does not adequately simulate the use of a real sword with respect to things such as blade alignment.

It is my belief that this move was done in part to facilitate a gradual move back towards traditional koryu style training, which places more of an emphasis on the proper use of the sword and not so much emphasis on striking an opponent.

I could be off base in my assumptions, but it is my belief that the use of a bokuto as a training tool increases one's understanding of the sword and its use and helps serve as a training tool to augment the current kendo curriculum.

My dojo has always practiced paired kata with bokuto followed by Iaido kata practice followed by kendo practice. All three serve their purpose.



Paired kata with bokuto enforce proper sword techniques.


Iai further enforces mental and physical conentration along with proper sword technique.


Kendo gives us the opportunity to put this technique into practice against an armored opponent.

All three serve to strengthen and reinforce one another.

I hope that helps a bit.

[Musha]

Hi Dan Shea,

Thanks for your post. Sorry if I am wrong but am not sure if you know what I mean. In stead of the first Ippon kata Uchidach into Hidari Jyoudan Shi into Jyoudan step in Uchi cuts Shi does nuki and Cuts. But now both stay in Chudan Uchi cuts men steps back then back again, cuts Kote steps back then cuts do steps back.
I'm not sure if you do the same in your Dojyo but I would expect Shidachi to do some movment to make it more realistic. Even if I am probably not doing perfect Do strikes in this new Kata it still seems very boring and pointless, I can do these types of Suburi at home with no partner at all and it feels the same as this new Kata :(.

[Dan Shea]

Hi Dan Shea,

Thanks for your post. Sorry if I am wrong but am not sure if you know what I mean. In stead of the first Ippon kata Uchidach into Hidari Jyoudan Shi into Jyoudan step in Uchi cuts Shi does nuki and Cuts. But now both stay in Chudan Uchi cuts men steps back then back again, cuts Kote steps back then cuts do steps back.
I'm not sure if you do the same in your Dojyo but I would expect Shidachi to do some movment to make it more realistic. Even if I am probably not doing perfect Do strikes in this new Kata it still seems very boring and pointless, I can do these types of Suburi at home with no partner at all and it feels the same as this new Kata :(.
My only advice would be to think about the differences between practicing alone and with a partner.

With the partner you have a better sense of maai since they are there in front of you moving. Also the use of the bokuto enforces the aspects of using a sword to cut an opponent.

I'll use Shidachi as attacker and Uchidachi as defender for my description below.

If Shidachi is attacking and Uchidachi is defending, the Uchidachi does not just stand there, he should be changing his distance from you and you should be compensating in order to land your blows on your opponent. Much like kirikaeshi. The Uchidachi sometimes runs at me and forces me to move backwards faster in order to maintain distance. Or the Uchidachi pulls away faster to force me to increase the length of my gait while attacking. The subtle changes in the maai help train a person to deal with the types of compensation that have to occur in order to deliver proper cuts.

Neither side should be standing there and going through the motions or the entire kata becomes pointless. By using subtle changes in maai the entire kata becomes an invaluable training tool forcing you to attain a better grasp on the concept of maai and how your strikes correlate to your position relative to your opponent.

You can't really accomplish that type of training performing by yourself, you need the uchidachi to be there to provide a moving live target.

The other aspect is that by using the bokuto even if maai is not continuously varying is that you are practicing cutting techniques and reinforcing proper sword handling.

I hope that helps.

[Dan Shea]

I forgot to mention in a paired kata where the footwork is fixed, the maai can still change. Subtle alterations of the distance between the Shidachi and Uchidachi coupled with variations in the tempo of the kata have the desired effect of training a person to learn to compensate. You might have to increase the length of your step 1/4" in order to properly land a men strike. Sounds minor but that 1/4" could be the difference between a dead opponent or a dead you! :)

I'm a big supporter of paired kata as a training tool. It has worked for hundreds of years and when done properly serves as a great tool for teaching maai, footwork, ettiquette, etc. It's a matter of perspective. If you go into it with the attitude that it is boring or that it serves no purpose, that is exactly what you'll get out of it. If you attempt to utilize that time with a partner as a training tool to focus on different aspects of kendo, you will benefit immensely.

Again I hope that helps and sorry for responding to my response! :)

[Khabbi]

Look at it like this:

Kendo Kata + More Kata = Alot of Kata !

Fun + More Fun = Alot of fun !

\'o)

[Musha]

People are still not reading what I wrote correctly :(.

After considerable research in Japan and abroad Sumi sensei has influenced the development of new methods and a set of kihon specifically designed to prepare students for shinai kendo in armour. These methods and the kihon were introduced to the UK during the 2003 kodokan seminar."

This is a new Kata were two people do very basic strikes as normal as your partner just stands there and opens MEN, then KOTE, Do and only moves back to avoid SUKI. This is not KIHON KENDO KATA and I started this topic because I really like KIHON KENDO KATA and not the new KATA. The first form is as follows :(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

KIHON KEIKO HO (Basic forms practice method)

Kihoni Ichi shikake men kote do tsuki

Motodachi Take three steps to the centre,Receive men

Chudan, To maai, Receive kote

Chudan, To maai, Receive do

Chudan, To maai, Step back and receive tsuki

Step forward to the centre

Separate to the nine step distance.

Kakari te
Take three steps to the centre

From issoku itto no maai cut men step back to apply zanshin (20%) Then step back to issoku for kote.

Step in and cut kote, 2 steps back

Step in and cut do, 2 steps back

Step in and thrust to the throat then immediately pull the hands back to Chudan, To maai, 2 steps back

Separate to the nine step distance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[mingshi]

See... not everyone knows

Traditional vs New
Kendo Kata vs Bokuto Kihon
10 vs 9
Uchidachi/Shidachi vs Motodachi/Kakarite
Ya/To vs Men/Kote/Do/Tsuki
Other Kamae vs Chudan all the way
No modern waza vs Modern Waza (Hiki waza, tsuba-zeriai)
Easy vs Very easy
etc.

[Dan Shea]

I read what you wrote correctly.
I was subtly trying to hint that perhaps you are looking at it the wrong way. :)

By coming in with the mindset of "This is boring, I don't like it." You've already made up your mind. What's the point of asking the question is you've already made up your mind? :)

By entering with an open mind you can find ways that this kata will improve your kendo.

Anyway, enough of my rambling, I need to go home and do some suburi.
Problem with a computer related jobs is too much time in front of a computer!

Best of luck with your kendo and a good night to all!

[slidercrank]

I really don't understand why we have to learn to do normal strikes with a bokken in forms when what we had before doing them with shinai against a partner in armour. I like the traditional kata and feel that if you look at it, you will understand all the basics of kendo.

... and I started this topic because I really like KIHON KENDO KATA and not the new KATA.
First, your terminology is a bit off. It's Nihon Kendo Kata you like. It's Kihon Keiko Ho that you dislike.

And to address your main question:

As Dan has said, Nihon Kendo Kata originates from koryu. Many of its movements and cuts are not done in today's kendo keiko at all. Thus, to remind today's kendo students of the root of the art that they are studying, Kihon Keiko Ho was created to demonstrate why some of the modern kendo waza's are done the way they are. Indirectly, Kihon Keiko Ho also shows why one should not do some of the other moves and cuts that you often see in modern kendo competitions, because those moves and cuts deviate from the "way of sword," ie, when you try to do those with a bokuto, you will see the ill-logic of it.

Specifically, let's take kote uchi as an example. In Nihon Kendo Kata, you cut kote in nihonme and ropponme. The cuts and footwork in nihonme are not used in modern kendo keiko at all. And while the suriage kote in ropponme is used in kendo, that kata contains other elements that are not. In Kihon Keiko Ho, all practices that involve kote uchi use scenarios that every kendo student is familiar with, straight kote, de-kote, etc.

Doh uchi is another example. You cut doh exactly once in Nihon Kendo Kata. And really, nowadays who cuts doh like that in ji-keiko? In contrast, look at the doh cuts in Kihon Keiko Ho: straight doh, hiki doh, nuki doh, and kaeshi doh. All of them are used in today's kendo.

So you asked, why do something with bokuto, when I can already do it with shinai? The answer is, to remind you that shinai is just a substitute sword. You should always do with shinai only what can be done with bokuto, and not do with shinai what cannot be done with bokuto. Kihon Keiko Ho reinforces that point.

[Kirin]

Hi -

Bokutoh ni yoru Kendo Kihon Waza Keiko-hou is still new in Japan too.
In April 2003, Tadanori Ohta sensei, one of most active promoter of this method, demonstrated this during course of 9th Nabeshima Cup at Dallas, Texsas.
Prior to Dallas trip, Ohta sensei stopped at Colorado Springs, and he also gave demonstration at Mark Uchida sensei's dojo.

Uchida sensei has detailed guide :
http://www.mushinkankendo.com/kendo_kihon_waza.html

Hope this helps :)

[emitbrownne]

Hi Dan Shea, Even if I am probably not doing perfect Do strikes in this new Kata it still seems very boring and pointless, I can do these types of Suburi at home with no partner at all and it feels the same as this new Kata :(.
Kata has spirit and intent.. suburi is exercise.
A partner, by recieving learns your range .... observes your cuts are accurate and measures your spirit/pressure.

If you are just going through the mechanical motions, then your kata is pointless.

thanks for listening.. enjoy the film

[JSchmidt]

"If you are just going through the mechanical motions, then your kata is pointless."

What he said!!

[Musha]

That’s what every one says, I have heard it 100s of times :D.

Thanks for the link Kirin but it still seems very unrealistic and pointless to me. The web site gives the impression that because the Nihon kendo kata is irrelevant and too hard for some people, we should give it up and do this new more simple and relevant kata.
I know it was thought up by the top people in Kendo but I don't think the old Kata is at all irrelevant even if the techniques are not exactly the same as in jigeiko.

I think kendo is it's self very unrealistic. I once read that the difference between kendo and Iaido was that in Kendo you stop at the point you make contact but one the other hand in Iaido you cut straight down. The reason for this is that in a real battle or if you look at films such as 'Kill-bill' you would slice into some ones most vital organs and then move onto another opponent. Although in kendo the idea is to carry on with one person as long as possible until you get a valid cut.
At least the old Kata could help you understand this idea. The new kata is just kendo with a bokken and no armour, if you know what I am getting at :D.

[JSchmidt]

"or if you look at films such as 'Kill-bill' "

Bzzzzzzztttttttttttttttttttttttt! Wrong answer. You just completly invalidated your whole reply by including a serious reference to a hollywood movie. (And especially "Kill-Bill")

[PhilMcLaughlin]

That’s what every one says, I have heard it 100s of times :D.

>> - Might be worth listening then !


Thanks for the link Kirin but it still seems very unrealistic and pointless to me. The web site gives the impression that because the Nihon kendo kata is irrelevant and too hard for some people, we should give it up and do this new more simple and relevant kata.
I know it was thought up by the top people in Kendo but I don't think the old Kata is at all irrelevant even if the techniques are not exactly the same as in jigeiko.

>> Nope youve definietly got the wrong end of this
>> Youve listed the first form out of 9
>> These forms have been introduced as a counter to some pretty poor attitudes to kendo itself and a lack of awareness of basic technique with a sword
>> If you think its boring then you have a problem
>> there are two really important aspects in this practise
>> Firstly how to cut (posture, hands, feet, distance - particularly distance)
>> Try this - put a band of insulating tape on the mono uchi then video yourself and see how many times you get the distance right - its illuminating
>> Secondly WHEN to cut - motodachi should hold kamae & then move to create an opening - that is when to cut - not half or 1 second after

I think kendo is it's self very unrealistic. I once read that the difference between kendo and Iaido was that in Kendo you stop at the point you make contact but one the other hand in Iaido you cut straight down. The reason for this is that in a real battle or if you look at films such as 'Kill-bill' you would slice into some ones most vital organs and then move onto another opponent. Although in kendo the idea is to carry on with one person as long as possible until you get a valid cut.
At least the old Kata could help you understand this idea. The new kata is just kendo with a bokken and no armour, if you know what I am getting at :D.


It IS kendo with a bokken and no armour - thats the whole point

I think you would do well to ask your sensei about some your misconceptions as to what kendo is - particulary the point you make above about stopping the cut - that is way off the mark

best of luck

[Khabbi]

I have a hard time trying to think of a way Kendo Kata and Kill Bill could be writen down at the same time in a thread

nothing could be farther apart

[GMason]

Hi everyone,

As far as I have been told and understand it, and Phil will be able to confirm this. I'm sure.

One of the main uses of the new Kihon Keiko Ho, is to improve the cutting of the kendoka, and I say cutting !!!!

All to many times you see people (Me included) hit when doing either Shinai Kendo or Kendo Kata. this is not correct and is not a vaild point.

Eric...... If you look at the people who went to the last Sumi Seminar you will see they all have electrical tape wrapped round their bokuto, this is done in order to check your DATOTSU BU (if using shinai terminology). I believe the last Sumi seminar in the UK concerntrated on this ALOT, and explained that with out a correct cut i.e distance, Datotsu Bu and timing. Kata and shiani kendo is reduced to hitting with a big stick.

So in a nutshell ... Kihon Keiko Ho is design in my limited knowledge to .....

Improve your Kihon.......
Improve your cutting........
Improve you distance.......
Improve you Timing........

Eric I will be at Keiko tonight so if you have any simple questions... I will try to answer them.

[Musha]

Although Kill bill was made by a Chinese choreographer I really think it is good and Quentin tarantino' is on of my best modern Film makers :D. I was going to say Azumi a recent Japanese Samurai film but I guess no one had heard of that one :D. Any way

Thanks for your reply Gareth. I do remember now people having tape around the end of there Bokken to mark the hit point. If you put it in the way that it was an activity that was done at a seminar to help with Maai it seems more logical and I would not mind doing that.
Although I got the impression that we would be concentrating on that from now on, instead of the old Nippon kendo kata. I think some one even said we would have to do the new Kata in Gradings too :(.

See you tonight, I hope I can stay behind longer because my mother has to rush me home some times because she has to get up early for work.
Maybe I could even try doing Nito if I am lucky, I asked last week but there was no time. I also made a mess of being Sempai uug :( haha.

[GMason]

The Kihon Kata in Gradings is a rumour as far I know, I think it is all a matter of opinion, if they are going to be added to the grading curiculum. Some people I have spoken to have said they think they may be introduced in a year or two up to Nidan.... others Sandan. I don't know of any announcement as of yet as to what will happen.

But I do not believe they would ever replace the Nihon Kendo No Kata, as one of the points of the Bokuto Keiko Ho is to reinstill the values of the traditonal keiko i.e using Bokuto... so removing Nihon Kendo No Kata would be a step backwards...

Yep see you tonight...... Hmmmm Nito.... good luck !!!

[Kirin]

That’s what every one says, I have heard it 100s of times :D.

Thanks for the link Kirin but it still seems very unrealistic and pointless to me. The web site gives the impression that because the Nihon kendo kata is irrelevant and too hard for some people, we should give it up and do this new more simple and relevant kata.
I know it was thought up by the top people in Kendo but I don't think the old Kata is at all irrelevant even if the techniques are not exactly the same as in jigeiko.

I think kendo is it's self very unrealistic. I once read that the difference between kendo and Iaido was that in Kendo you stop at the point you make contact but one the other hand in Iaido you cut straight down. The reason for this is that in a real battle or if you look at films such as 'Kill-bill' you would slice into some ones most vital organs and then move onto another opponent. Although in kendo the idea is to carry on with one person as long as possible until you get a valid cut.
At least the old Kata could help you understand this idea. The new kata is just kendo with a bokken and no armour, if you know what I am getting at :D.

Well said.
But you are only looking at kendo kata from more advanced view.
When I talked to Ohta sensei, he memtioned that Kihon Waza Keiko-hou was developed for beginners (His definition for beginner was up to 3dan) especially youth in kendo.
1) Using bokken, it help learn your tenouchi & maai.
2) Wanted to create more realistic, and basic move of kendo
(how often do you take migi-jodan? tuki kaeshi (osae) tuki? hassou and waki-gamae w/ men kaseshi men? suriage men with stepping back? jodan zanshin other than hikiwaza? nuki-do with kneeling down?)

Sole purpose was to use basic everyday kendo waza with proper posture and tenouchi.
So this is not something replacememnt of Kendo Kata, this is more of supplement tool for teaching beginners.

FYI, some of youth program in west Japan already started to implement this into rank examination

[mingshi]

Some people I have spoken to have said they think they may be introduced in a year or two up to Nidan.... others Sandan. I don't know of any announcement as of yet as to what will happen...
Ouch!
Do they want more people to pass or fail?

I see the Bokuto Kihon as a slow-down, quiet and controlled version of our daily bogu keiko. If you are doing your kendo in Bogu right (say, distance, timing, kikentai-ichi, yuko-datotsubu, waza, etc.), their is no way you can mess up the Bokuto Kihon.

Kendo Kata has a lot more specific requirements, say, no. of steps to take, "other" kamae, blade angle, creating openings, ZANSHIN...

If anyone is going to fail their Kendo Kata, they can't pass the grading anyway.

"Okay, so you can do nidan-waza in bogu keiko, can you do me a kote-men with bokuto?" Of course it's a YES. Whats the point of asking the same question twice?!

I can understand the need to have a "form" for bogu kendo kihon like tsuba-zeriai and hiki waza. Sometimes people do need to slow down a bit and take a look at how they stand like without the Men on. However, it will be excessive if it becomes a grading requirement.

(They'd better introduce Iaido to beginners then... or something else like, ninjitsu for that matter... :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: :ninja: )

[JSchmidt]

"If you are doing your kendo in Bogu right"

But are you?. Are you absolutly happy with the kendo you are doing in bogu?.
I'm mostly ambivalent on this issue. I agree that Kendo no Kata is not easily understood and it's only now I'm starting to realise the lessons it is teaching.
I also agree that it might seem irrelevant to the beginner, but on the otherhand, you have to start with it somewhere...and when you reach 2nd/3rd dan, you will have done it so many times, that you (hopefully) wont have to worry about which foot to move when, etc, but can actually start focusing alot more on the more esoteric areas (pressure, seme, etc).

[Hyaku]

Asking questions here in Japan I was undr the impression that Bokutoh ni yoru Kendo Kihon Waza Keiko-hou was for begginers.

There was an all out drive to try and get Kendoka to do Seitei kata Iai some years ago.

Our local ZNKR teacher who had received a few dans grades to take up seitei as opposed to koryu brought along 30 Iaito to a an adults club comprised of Kendo teachers that had formed a club to practice with each other. Apart from me who had already done it. the trained for a while after kendo. Two actualy passed Shodan.

To be honest Kendo people who do it full time do not have time to do iaido.
The whole year seven days a week has a full itinerary to keep up.

I would have thought this was another attempt to do a similar thing but still keep it within the realms of Kendo.

[Bleda]

At our dojo we use both Nihon Kendo Kata and Kihon Keiko-hou. Kihon is an invaluable tool for beginner students. It teaches the basics in a very easy form that makes it easy to catch errors before they are intergrated into a students technique. We also do it with both shinai AND bokkuto to give students a feel for the different distances and also for the inherent differences between a shinai and bokkuto.

The bokkuto forces the student to do the strikes more precisely since the proper cutting distance is so small on the bokkuto when compared to the relatively large area of the shinai. You can get away with a 1/2 step off using a shinai since the cutting distance is so long but 1/2 step with the bokkuto and you completely missed.

[JSchmidt]

I think you got the distances wrong. You need to take a larger step when using shinai, due to the longer distance.

Jakob

[Bleda]

By proper cutting distance i ment the area between the nakayui and the sakigawa of the shinai as compared to the relatively small 4 inches that would be the equivalent on a bokkuto. Not exactly sure what the term for it is in japanese sorry =/.

[Wout]

well I think it is kensen (which translates as spirit of the sword, think so) or mono-uchi