Dojo Financial Question

[Rularn]

I am curious to know how people are handling their dojo finances. A sensei and I are trying to start up classes locally and will be renting out a space. Since our classes/club will be non-profit, everyone who practices with us will be sharing in the expense of the rent.

Are most people handling their cost this way? With one person taking in all of the money and then paying the rent out of their own name? Or would it be easier to register as a non-profit organization and do the money that way since it wouldn't put the finanical responsibilities on any one person should attendance drop one particular month? Or is there a better way of doing this that I am not seeing? One thing I don't want to do is register as a business and have to worry about licenses, insurance, and whatnot.

All of the other places I've practiced at did not have a building rental fee and so I never had to worry about monthly membership cost. Any information would be appreciated.

Rularn

[Neil Gendzwill]

Don't charge fees month to month. Charge per term, or per year. We used to do it per 4 month term (sep-dec, jan-april). That way you know where you stand financially. If people quit early, just consider it a club subsidy. If you're truly non-profit, the fees should be reasonable anyways. Just don't forget to allow for extras like insurance, club supplies, etc.

If you can swing a club discount from an equipment supplier, you can sell equipment and make a little money for the club. We do this with beginners' shinai - it's the only thing we sell that we make any money from, again we think of it as a club subsidy. Once they're with us for long enough to want better equipment, they get it at cost. It's a good deal for them, too, as the shinai we sell are better quality and still cheaper than they can get locally through retail.

[tango]

We tried paying on a term basis --- bi-annual dues ... but it didn't work out for us, so we went back to paying on a month-to-month basis.

Our one-night-a-week class is at a community center. We charge $10/mo. ... even if/when we are able to get a second night a week, it'll still be $10/mo. ... cash money goes to sensei and then he hands it directly to the woman in charge of the community center.

We've never bothered trying to establish it as a business, so we've never worried about establishing a non-profit "thing". ... although I think we tried something similar to that once. We charged $15 or $20 per month... $10 went to paying the community center and the other $5 or $10 would go in a separate bank account. Our thought was to try and save up money that would help rent a van or something when we decided to travel to a taikai or goshghu.. or help pay some costs to have another sensei come visit our dojo.. stuff like that..

Anyway, sensei opened a separate bank acct in the name of the dojo, registering it as a non-profit org ... this was so we didn't have to deal with paying any taxes on any interest earned in the bank account.

It kinda sorta didn't work out very well, though, as people would come and go in the class, so we abandoned that project because it was more hassle than it was worth.

Now, it's just $10/mo. in cash. Done deal. Works out very well for us now.

Good luck!

[tango]

I should add that Neil has a good point about paying quarterly or bi-annually so you know where you stand financially.

Our club is in perhaps a little bit of a unique situation in that the community center doesn't charge us a flat fee per month... it only charges us by the person. I don't know how they (the community center) keep up with it, but we haven't had any problems with it. Also, we've been fortunate that everybody's continued to come back to class month after month.

[Kirin]

I am curious to know how people are handling their dojo finances. A sensei and I are trying to start up classes locally and will be renting out a space. Since our classes/club will be non-profit, everyone who practices with us will be sharing in the expense of the rent.

Are most people handling their cost this way? With one person taking in all of the money and then paying the rent out of their own name? Or would it be easier to register as a non-profit organization and do the money that way since it wouldn't put the finanical responsibilities on any one person should attendance drop one particular month? Or is there a better way of doing this that I am not seeing? One thing I don't want to do is register as a business and have to worry about licenses, insurance, and whatnot.

All of the other places I've practiced at did not have a building rental fee and so I never had to worry about monthly membership cost. Any information would be appreciated.

Rularn

Not just monthly renting fees, you should consider little extra ...pool money for future seminar hosting, inviting high ranking sensei from other dojos or Japan, little curtsey donation or placing ad to local/reginal or national level tournament/seminar, or even future club bogu purchases.
Also, if you are under AUSKF, I think they require one big check for national dues & insurance, same with regional federation fee.

To be non-profit, it requires BOD (board of directors) under charter by-laws and also good idea to have an auditor.

28yrs ago, our dojo started out with 3-4 members and sensei.
Now we have 40+ paying members (25 active) plus 15 beginners (guess all saw The Last Samurai lol)
Running dojo is hard work but it is very rewarding to see everyone develop and see sweaty faces after practice :)

Good Luck

[Neil Gendzwill]

We're part of the programming at the local Y now, so they take care of all that stuff for us, thank God. We run our seminar once a year and charge enough for that to pay for all the sensei we invite and the other costs associated with that. Plus we make a little money from equipment as I mentioned before.

Being an official non-profit org (at least here in Canada) means keeping formal books and filing tax returns and all that hoopla. Not worth it, IMO.

[Rularn]

Being an official non-profit org (at least here in Canada) means keeping formal books and filing tax returns and all that hoopla. Not worth it, IMO.

Judging from the requirements for non-profit incorporation, it doesn't seem worth it here either. I just want to be able to practice Kendo with sensei and share that opportunity with others who are interested... not have to worry about a BOD or bylaws/charter or tax exemption or whatnot. It may be possible in the future with more people but definitely not something one person could handle all by himself.

In any case, has anyone had any problems just running their finances through individual management? Like just one person collecting money and paying the rent and stuff? I know Tango mentioned his sensei did it, but that was for a community center that probably handles all of that non-profit stuff? How about just renting out a space from a place that isn't involved with your activity? I think we may end up just doing it informally... I don't think the feds are gonna get worked up on our small-scale activities.

[Kirin]

Judging from the requirements for non-profit incorporation, it doesn't seem worth it here either. I just want to be able to practice Kendo with sensei and share that opportunity with others who are interested... not have to worry about a BOD or bylaws/charter or tax exemption or whatnot. It may be possible in the future with more people but definitely not something one person could handle all by himself.

In any case, has anyone had any problems just running their finances through individual management? Like just one person collecting money and paying the rent and stuff? I know Tango mentioned his sensei did it, but that was for a community center that probably handles all of that non-profit stuff? How about just renting out a space from a place that isn't involved with your activity? I think we may end up just doing it informally... I don't think the feds are gonna get worked up on our small-scale activities.

Aha..... you are from Arkansas.. I just noticed it.

How is Mr. Beaupre ? I probably met you at our tournament last April.
Give me a PM. Will give you more advice.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think we may end up just doing it informally... I don't think the feds are gonna get worked up on our small-scale activities.
Yeah. We keep a bank account under the club's name, with signing authority going to whoever is the treasurer (whoever being Doug, you may see him post on iaido-l once in while). This has been going on for 20-odd years and we've yet to get a Revenue Canada guy knocking on our door enquiring about the bank account or club. Maybe if there were some large sums of money going through there but I doubt we even rotate through $5K a year on that account.

[Rularn]

Yeah. We keep a bank account under the club's name, with signing authority going to whoever is the treasurer (whoever being Doug, you may see him post on iaido-l once in while). This has been going on for 20-odd years and we've yet to get a Revenue Canada guy knocking on our door enquiring about the bank account or club. Maybe if there were some large sums of money going through there but I doubt we even rotate through $5K a year on that account.

Well, from what I gathered... even opening a bank acount in the name of the club seems complicated as they require a EIN and articles of incorporation or non-profit status... which leads back to by-laws and legal consultation.

[Rularn]

Actually... does any of the US Federations (AUSKF/SWKIF) help with this stuff? Something like becoming a small branch under one of the above organizations... as we are all basically doing and promoting the same thing, etc etc. The goal, mission statement, and bylaws should basically be the same anyway... and though activites/accounts are separated at the local level, it shouldn't be a problem for it to be all under so and so's federation name, right?

I don't know... figure it is unneeded work for small places in the states if they want to start a club and are not associated with a community center/school.

[Kirin]

Actually... does any of the US Federations (AUSKF/SWKIF) help with this stuff? Something like becoming a small branch under one of the above organizations... as we are all basically doing and promoting the same thing, etc etc. The goal, mission statement, and bylaws should basically be the same anyway... and though activites/accounts are separated at the local level, it shouldn't be a problem for it to be all under so and so's federation name, right?

I don't know... figure it is unneeded work for small places in the states if they want to start a club and are not associated with a community center/school.

SWKIF will have spring kendo seminar/testing at Oklahoma in April.
We also have BOD meeting there and you might want to join us :)
There will be many representatives from each dojo (small & large) in region so you can compare and case study their experiences.

I PMed you with my e-mail and phone #
if need more info, you know where to find me :)

[tango]

Actually... does any of the US Federations (AUSKF/SWKIF) help with this stuff? Something like becoming a small branch under one of the above organizations... as we are all basically doing and promoting the same thing, etc etc. The goal, mission statement, and bylaws should basically be the same anyway... and though activites/accounts are separated at the local level, it shouldn't be a problem for it to be all under so and so's federation name, right?

I don't know... figure it is unneeded work for small places in the states if they want to start a club and are not associated with a community center/school.

As far as the SEUSKF is concerned (and anybody can correct me on this if I'm wrong), you can apply to the federation to become a member dojo of that federation. I don't think it brings any particular perks as far as opening up a dojo, though.. like, they don't send you federation money to help start the club. And I don't think even joining the federation covers you on insurance for your individual club... only at regionally and nationally-sponsored tournaments/goshgu/promotionals...