Tournaments and Shinpans and Instant Replay

[Kendo-Militia]

Today in most sports, referees are only human and make mistakes. We see it even in our tournaments. Would instant replay help Kendo or hurt it? And as participants in Kendo tournaments, do we accept bad calls as part of Kendo? We have all won and lost due to poor referees. What can be done to correct this?

[Khabbi]

instant replay is not instant (lol) . the match would have to be stoped , video checked , then the judges would have to go and check the video , then judge , and then the match could continue .

Nothing is perfect , but the way we do it is fine , i wouldent want it to go the fencing way either , with big batterys stuck to the bogu or a "cable" stuck to your bogu , flashing nobs lol

old school is fine

[AlexM]

Just forget about defeat and move on. Take it up at the next shinpan seminar if you have to... Nothing says bad sportsmanship like whining about about the refs. It's just kendo after all. Your life or livelihood doesn't depend on it. Win or lose and move on to the next match.

Besides, it's been my limited experience that alot of the problems are in points that are "not given" rather than casses of undeserved ippon. How would instant replay solve this? Have a video review judge out of bounds that could call a stop to the match and ask the shipan to look at what he has on a little video monitor. It's ridiculous, impractical and and unnecessary.

Taping matches for review at shinpan seminars would probably be beneficial... but ippon don't come accross so well on video sometimes.

[Kendo-Militia]

I agree with you guys on the sportsmanship part of it. I do agree not to make a fuss during the match or after the match. But doesn't it bother you guys that shinpans that you know do not qualify to shinpan are judging your matches and at the very next shinpan seminar, they are not there either? I had an incident in a match where my actions cause a competitor to lose. I raise my flag, the two other shinpans followed my actions. I brought my flag down before it went completely up and waved off the point. But it was too late. The other two shinpans scored the point. After that match, one of my senpais who is also a friend of mine's father came up to me to tell me I need to be more careful. And continued to tell me other shinpans will follow my actions. I will accept my part on my mistake for calling a bad point, but should these other shinpans be on the court?

[Ralutin]

Today in most sports, referees are only human and make mistakes. We see it even in our tournaments. Would instant replay help Kendo or hurt it? And as participants in Kendo tournaments, do we accept bad calls as part of Kendo? We have all won and lost due to poor referees. What can be done to correct this?

Hi,

There's no way that would happen here in our Southern California tournaments. Our tournaments usually run (timewise) on the long side due to the large volume of kenshi and any logistical snafus that arise. If you add in instant replay, even if it's just for the final and semifinal matches, the tournament will easily turn into a two-day, or more, affair. Like the previous poster said, accept the judges' decision as final and move on. There will be many other tournaments for you to prove your mettle and if you still have issues, take it up with your sensei/sempai or bring it up at a kendo board meeting or shimpan seminar.

[Ralutin]

But doesn't it bother you guys that shinpans that you know do not qualify to shinpan are judging your matches and at the very next shinpan seminar, they are not there either? I had an incident in a match where my actions cause a competitor to lose. I raise my flag, the two other shinpans followed my actions. I brought my flag down before it went completely up and waved off the point. But it was too late. The other two shinpans scored the point. After that match, one of my senpais who is also a friend of mine's father came up to me to tell me I need to be more careful. And continued to tell me other shinpans will follow my actions. I will accept my part on my mistake for calling a bad point, but should these other shinpans be on the court?

If you were the 'head' shimpan and knew you had called a bad point, you should've stopped the match, called 'gogi' and explained yourself to the other shimpan.

Just my ni yen...

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you were the 'head' shimpan and knew you had called a bad point, you should've stopped the match, called 'gogi' and explained yourself to the other shimpan.

Just my ni yen...
That gets into a pretty gray area. You've already waved off the point, so you've explained your actions. If the other shimpan are always just following your lead, then your gogi is essentially to tell them they're crappy refs. Depending on your relative rank/age/politics this may be a bad thing to do.

[Jin-e]

instant replay is not instant (lol) . the match would have to be stoped , video checked , then the judges would have to go and check the video , then judge , and then the match could continue .

I totally agree. Kendo would'nt be the same anymore

[Ralutin]

That gets into a pretty gray area. You've already waved off the point, so you've explained your actions. If the other shimpan are always just following your lead, then your gogi is essentially to tell them they're crappy refs. Depending on your relative rank/age/politics this may be a bad thing to do.

Good point, Neil. Being the 'head' shimpan during a match is always sticky when the other two shimpan are your seniors. That's always something to consider.

[Kendo-Militia]

Good point, Neil. Being the 'head' shimpan during a match is always sticky when the other two shimpan are your seniors. That's always something to consider.
My point regarding this is, is there a solution for poor shinpans? We all have them in our federations, we all experienced them, and we all watch them. Should there be more stricter requirments to be a shinpan? Or if there was strict requirments, will each federation have enough shinpans to hold a tournament? Or do we accept poor shinpans as part of Kendo and move on? I hate being a shinpan of a match and think if I make a mistake, it could cause someone to lose the match. Isn't that the reason we have 3 shinpans. So that hopefully not all 3 make the same exact mistake.

[Ralutin]

My point regarding this is, is there a solution for poor shinpans? We all have them in our federations, we all experienced them, and we all watch them. Should there be more stricter requirments to be a shinpan? Or if there was strict requirments, will each federation have enough shinpans to hold a tournament? Or do we accept poor shinpans as part of Kendo and move on? I hate being a shinpan of a match and think if I make a mistake, it could cause someone to lose the match. Isn't that the reason we have 3 shinpans. So that hopefully not all 3 make the same exact mistake.

Ultimately, these shimpan issues should be handled by your regional federation and the national federation if it gets really bad. Unless you're a dojo head instructor or board member, there's not much you can do other than register your complaints with the higher-ups. :confused2

[Kendo-Militia]

Ultimately, these shimpan issues should be handled by your regional federation and the national federation if it gets really bad. Unless you're a dojo head instructor or board member, there's not much you can do other than register your complaints with the higher-ups. :confused2
If it only was that easy. I have sat there next to court judges and heard them complain about the shinpans but yet they don't say anything when the shinpan comes off the court. Often times they will use these shinpans only until the quarter or semi finals and change them out. I understand why the court judge makes this move but isn't every match just as important?

[Ralutin]

Often times they will use these shinpans only until the quarter or semi finals and change them out. I understand why the court judge makes this move but isn't every match just as important?

As screwed up as it is, it seems logical: If I were in a quarterfinals match or higher (yeah right!:P), I wouldn't want those incompetent shimpan in there judging my match. You'd also figure that in the lower rounds, the points would be a bit easier to judge, so why not let the more inexperienced shimpan deal with those matches?

Hmmmm...maybe THAT's why I haven't been able to get through those lower rounds? :ponder:

[AlexM]

As screwed up as it is, it seems logical: If I were in a quarterfinals match or higher (yeah right!:P), I wouldn't want those incompetent shimpan in there judging my match. You'd also figure that in the lower rounds, the points would be a bit easier to judge, so why not let the more inexperienced shimpan deal with those matches?


I think it's just the opposite. The points are tougher to distinguish between two lousy competitors (mostly because there are so few valid strikes). The higher the level the more clear the points become.

The true problem in judging is when judges are either:
A) Not independant: they glance over at their fellow shinpan before raising a flag. This to me just denotes a lack of courage on the part of some shinpan (and quite frankly it reflects negatively on their kendo): you either think there's a point or not. Don't look over at the other guy to find out what he thinks. Have the courage to make mistakes.
Watch a match at an amateur tournament... you'll often times see one shinpan deferring to another one tacitely by always looking over to him when there is a point. There always seems to be one dominant shinpan per court.

B) Downright prejudice on the part of the judges: Some judges (not all and not even most) expect player A to win over player B as a matter of course and simply lower the threshold of ippon for player A and raise it for player B. This is once again related to the notion of shinpan having enough courage to cause an upset.

Once you're scared of making a judging mistake, or worried about what the IKF will think, you can't judge. Hell, in my opinion you can't even do kendo with that kind of an attitude.

Kendo is not so important that you should be worried about the consequences of missing a call... it happens. So judges: Have the courage to call or not call ippon! :D We can all live with blown calls when it's a question of speed, we can't live with men refusing to do anything unless someone else does so first. :)

Instant replays can't fix the two problems I've mentionned. Only shinpan seminars where that type of behaviour is discussed (and ridiculed) can help fix that kind of a problem.

BTW, remarkably few sports actually have instant replay integrated into the judging: Baseball, baketball, soccer, rugby, tennis, fencing, etc... no instant replay for the judges.

[litige]

BTW, remarkably few sports actually have instant replay integrated into the judging: Baseball, baketball, soccer, rugby, tennis, fencing, etc... no instant replay for the judges.[/QUOTE]

T'as oublié notre sport national!!!!!!!!!

[AlexM]

BTW, remarkably few sports actually have instant replay integrated into the judging: Baseball, baketball, soccer, rugby, tennis, fencing, etc... no instant replay for the judges.

T'as oublié notre sport national!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE]

Lacrosse?

[Karaken]

There is a simple solution but it's hard to implement.
If you have a chance to watch Kumdo match video, shimpans don't make any mistakes. The reason is because they're all certified shimpans ( normally 5 dan and up but there's a separate test for being a shimpan).
Now, can we implement it here in US, CAN or Europe? Not really, sometimes we don't even have enough 3 dans to judge and some of them have never taken a shimpan seminar :-(

Center

[AlexM]

There is a simple solution but it's hard to implement.
If you have a chance to watch Kumdo match video, shimpans don't make any mistakes.


huh? Kumdo shinpan don't make any mistakes??? Yes, and they can leap tall buildings in a single bound too. :p

I've seen videos of a Korean collegiate competition: I would not want those guys judging anything. They had no idea what zanshin was apparently as you could hit the other guy and fall down or block afterwards and still get the point. And I seem to remember that there were some really bad calls and non-calls too.

A shinpan seminar is not worth a hill of beans (what is a hill of beans worth???) if shinpan then lose their independance out of fear of making mistakes or go into a match prejudiced (as I wrote in my previous post). But apparently kumdo shinpan are above that. :rolleyes:

[litige]

T'as oublié notre sport national!!!!!!!!!

Lacrosse?[/QUOTE]

Le hockey, mais, p-ê que Lacrosse en ont... Yo no sé

[JSchmidt]

"If you have a chance to watch Kumdo match video, shimpans don't make any mistakes."

Hmm?. I've seen Japanese shimpans make mistakes both in All Japan and All Japan Police taikai.

Granted, they are less obvious mistakes, but they still happen.

Any kind of competition where judgement is required, mistakes will happen. The question is what you do to minimize those mistakes.

Jakob

[kendokamax]

I think if there is a doubt and you are head shinpan you should always be ready to ask for goki (?). It is not unrespectfull or anything , you just simply ask a second time if the point was good or not, then If they still keep the same opinion the point should be given.

I had a shinpan class here during last semester and the teacher was insisting on asking for goki if anything was unclear. Like someone who would give a flag and then lower it to deny the point. I did a lot of mistakes during the training shiai. We always had to give an opinion if one of the judge was giving one. So if one person would raise a flag the two other judge would have to either give the point or deny it on the spot. If one person was not acting, then goki(?) would be call imidiately, and the head judge would ask : was there a point?

So you should not care whatever rank the other judges are !! If you are judging the same match your judgement is as good as theirs right?

[misterkurukuru]

i dont think it will take too much time to have instant replay( IR) if there was a rule for it. say it it will only be used during the semi finals and finals , and each player gets one IR for the semi and finals combined. I dunno i wouldnt ask for IR unless the call was really bad. You know when the other person tagged you, and you know when you did not get touched...if you werer only given one, i dont think it would be a bad idea...most of the sensei that make the biggest mistakes are the older ones that do not abide by the new rules, or the ones( old and young) that think your fingers are a valid point. ohh and if you call for an IR and there is no change in the call, you should get charged a hansoku for wasting everyones time. i think american football has a good IR rule.

[litige]

Just a little story I heard form a guy . Some guy, i don't remember the name, was in a competition of some sort and faked a do. With his shinai it hitted is own do while passing his opponent very quickly and with a lot of zanshin, so he got the point.

À AlexM et Kendokamax. Si vous voulez plus de détails et une imitation, demandez à Martin quand vous allez le voir.

[Karaken]

huh? Kumdo shinpan don't make any mistakes??? Yes, and they can leap tall buildings in a single bound too. :p

I've seen videos of a Korean collegiate competition: I would not want those guys judging anything. They had no idea what zanshin was apparently as you could hit the other guy and fall down or block afterwards and still get the point. And I seem to remember that there were some really bad calls and non-calls too.

A shinpan seminar is not worth a hill of beans (what is a hill of beans worth???) if shinpan then lose their independance out of fear of making mistakes or go into a match prejudiced (as I wrote in my previous post). But apparently kumdo shinpan are above that. :rolleyes:

Well I should have said less mistakes. However your observation has a hole. Kumdo has different category of point - Zanshin isn't very important there. I stand by my comments. They make far less mistakes because they are all trained and certified Shimpans.. ( I don't think AJKF shimpans have separate categories of Shimpan certification - Not that I doubt their ability to judge ).

I agree single Shimpan seminar is not going to help a lot but the point is more effort you put in to learn how to judge and spent more time judging, you'll be better at it.. I don't think anyone can argue that point.

Center

[misterkurukuru]

I know how to do that move. Its a kata te do, and you just rush at the the guy,bring your hand down to hit your own do, and then bring it back up to do zanshin. you use a kind of scooping move with your hand to get the shinai past the other person. usually they will be moving foward, so the waza works....in so cal we do not take kata te do, so this wza is pretty useless, you can do the same move with men if you are fast enough.

[Karaken]

"If you have a chance to watch Kumdo match video, shimpans don't make any mistakes."

Hmm?. I've seen Japanese shimpans make mistakes both in All Japan and All Japan Police taikai.

Granted, they are less obvious mistakes, but they still happen.

Any kind of competition where judgement is required, mistakes will happen. The question is what you do to minimize those mistakes.

Jakob

Exactly my point, certified shimpans WILL make less mistakes.

Center

[kendokamax]

I think instant replay would suck.

takes too much effort, too much time, kendo is an amateur sport.

Even sports that do have instant replay , well that is only on a professional level and all these sports are viewed by spectators on TV.

The thing is that people who would watch these sports on TV would have the chance to watch the instant replay over and over if one judgement of the judge was wrong, and to keep them quiet and make the whole thing more interesting they made the judge able to watch the replay too and rejudge their decision!!! oh my god !!!

[misterkurukuru]

The thing is that people who would watch these sports on TV would have the chance to watch the instant replay over and over if one judgement of the judge was wrong, and to keep them quiet and make the whole thing more interesting they made the judge able to watch the replay too and rejudge their decision!!! oh my god !!!

and your point is?

"and to keep them quiet and make the whole thing more interesting"
them meaning the people who watch these sports right...

"they made the judge able to watch the replay too and rejudge their decision!!! oh my god !!!"
Who are they?

[slidercrank]

There is a simple solution but it's hard to implement.
If you have a chance to watch Kumdo match video, shimpans don't make any mistakes. The reason is because they're all certified shimpans ( normally 5 dan and up but there's a separate test for being a shimpan).
Now, can we implement it here in US, CAN or Europe? Not really, sometimes we don't even have enough 3 dans to judge and some of them have never taken a shimpan seminar :-(

Center
So do they use only certified shimpans on every kumdo match world-wide? Are there that many godan's and above whereever there's a kumdo dojang?

The problem of shimpan certification in US, CAN and EU is that there won't be enogh godans around to run a tournament, except for the national level tournament.

[AlexM]

So do they use only certified shimpans on every kumdo match world-wide? Are there that many godan's and above whereever there's a kumdo dojang?

The problem of shimpan certification in US, CAN and EU is that there won't be enogh godans around to run a tournament, except for the national level tournament.

Well said Slidercrank. Local tournaments don't exactely have a whole slew of go-dan to offer.. and an even smaller amount of those have been to many shinpan seminars. That's reality.

Certified or not kumdo and kendo shinpan make mistakes. Well, not so much mistakes actually, as "inconsistencies" in their judging.

Zanshin is not a part of kumdo??? Funny, the kumdo people here that I've seen seem to think so. And that doesn't mean that there were no blown calls in the video of a collegiate tournament that I saw.

Hypothetical question: You get an undeserved point in tournament... like say you hit kote on the arm and not the leather. Do you go up to the shinpan and say: "I didn't deserve the point, let's continue." Where is the players' responsibility in all this? Even if you try to avoid "doing zanshin" and showing off that you got the point... would you still say: "I didn't get ippon, let's keep going."?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hypothetical question: You get an undeserved point in tournament... like say you hit kote on the arm and not the leather. Do you go up to the shinpan and say: "I didn't deserve the point, let's continue."

Nope, you're not the judge. Take the good calls and the bad, for and against you, with grace when they're against you and with humility when they're for you. Save the self-judging for jigeiko.

Besides, the judge might well give you an off-target point intentionally. I know I do upon occasion (for mudansha).

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=Neil Gendzwill]Nope, you're not the judge. Take the good calls and the bad, for and against you, with grace when they're against you and with humility when they're for you. Save the self-judging for jigeiko.

I agree with this but it does not feel good to win by having poor calls.

[Karaken]

Well said Slidercrank. Local tournaments don't exactely have a whole slew of go-dan to offer.. and an even smaller amount of those have been to many shinpan seminars. That's reality..

Duh, I said it's hard to implement and we don't even have enough 3 dans..


Certified or not kumdo and kendo shinpan make mistakes. Well, not so much mistakes actually, as "inconsistencies" in their judging.

I thought the point was about ridiculous calls by novice not occasional mistakes by well trained shimpans..


Zanshin is not a part of kumdo??? Funny, the kumdo people here that I've seen seem to think so. And that doesn't mean that there were no blown calls in the video of a collegiate tournament that I saw.

Zanshin is of course a part of Kumdo. However, in my observation, wasn't a big part of "Point" during Kumdo tournament - less than Kendo torny. And they make far more consistant in judging. ( Zashin or not their judging is very uniform )


Hypothetical question: You get an undeserved point in tournament... like say you hit kote on the arm and not the leather. Do you go up to the shinpan and say: "I didn't deserve the point, let's continue." Where is the players' responsibility in all this? Even if you try to avoid "doing zanshin" and showing off that you got the point... would you still say: "I didn't get ippon, let's keep going."?

Tell that to Miyazaki, I remember at least 3 very crucial point he received that wasn't a good hit. However, he had a very good form and more importantly, he claimed the point ( Zashin ? )..

Center no matter what..

[misterkurukuru]

If we could take all the hits that did not have zanshin, we would need the to up the points to 7 points. Its too easy to hit without zanshin...but you are right, with good zanshin you could hit the shoulders and still get a point for it. I think most bad calls come from judges that get tricked by the zanshin. Maybe thats why we need instant replay...in so cal there is no shortage of 5 dans and above. Its just that they have to judge the whole time so they get tired.maybe the 3 dans judge for 0-4 kyu (and adult group) and the 4dans to judge 3kyu- 2 dan, and then have the 5 dan and above judge for 3 dan and above. This way the higher ranking shinapns wouldnt get so tired at the end of the tournament.

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=misterkurukuru]If we could take all the hits that did not have zanshin, we would need the to up the points to 7 points. Its too easy to hit without zanshin...but you are right, with good zanshin you could hit the shoulders and still get a point for it. I think most bad calls come from judges that get tricked by the zanshin.


This is the sad reality of Kendo. You can trick Shinpans into giving points. And only gets easier when you need to convince one shinpan and the other 2 nuckleheads to follow. I'm not usre if instant replay will solve anything but it really is getting sad going to tournaments and watching these bad shinpans out there. And because of bad shinpans, good shinpans are over worked which may cause them to make bad calls. misterkururu your advise on having different dans judge different groups sounds like a winner. But what do you do during Championships where it is Shodan and up? OH gawd the bad shinpans we get there.

[AlexM]

maybe the 3 dans judge for 0-4 kyu (and adult group) and the 4dans to judge 3kyu- 2 dan, and then have the 5 dan and above judge for 3 dan and above. This way the higher ranking shinapns wouldnt get so tired at the end of the tournament.

Up here no one below 3rd dan can judge for a kyu division match (adult or not) and to judge the sho-dan and up categories you need to be 5th dan. So that's the reality around here... I can't imagine that it's much different in SoCal. Of course, high dan ranking doesn't mean you won't make mistakes... (one of the judges responsible for Miyazaki's famous "phantom men" on Eiga? None other than the great Chiba sensei himself, 8th dan, from the Tokyo Police: Jodan extrodinaire and former All-Japan champion.)

Of course I would never dispute a call by the refs!!!! My teamates would kill me! We like to say that we don't do kendo to win... but if you lose you have to find you're own lift home :( . But then... would I show zanshin after a bad point? I've done it before... maybe: I've gotten kote on the knuckles, but I don't think I exagerrated on the zanshin. It's not like I wanted to get an undeserved point.

When in tournament some of the etiquette of kendo goes out the window I suppose... No longer willing to give the adversary a point.

Forget instant replay... it sounds too complicated and time consuming (we all know how tournaments tend to end LATE).

[mingshi]

Don't forget... With only one camera angle you would only see a 2D surface. Sometimes that can be manipulative, and not as accurate as it sounds, even if you can do things in slow motion.

(Reality check: most soft porno are filmed that way...)

... So you need 3 cameras for each court, and they have to be able to move around. Why not have each shinpai wearing a spy-cam on their head? :rolleyes:

[Ralutin]

(Reality check: most soft porno are filmed that way...)




Okay, I'll be the first one to say: Sounds like you have some experience in this field...:D

2nd zinger that you'll be getting from alot of the guys in here: How you doin' ?! ;)

[Kendo-Militia]

[QUOTE=mingshi]Don't forget... With only one camera angle you would only see a 2D surface. Sometimes that can be manipulative, and not as accurate as it sounds, even if you can do things in slow motion.

(Reality check: most soft porno are filmed that way...)

Your leaving yourself open for allot of .................... nevermind.

Ok so let's say there is no cameras or instant replay, what can be done to help correct poor shinpans or judgements?

[AlexM]

Everyone should note that Mingshi edited her post because of "explicit material"... so what exactely was written before she changed it? :D

[Kendo-Militia]

Everyone should note that Mingshi edited her post because of "explicit material"... so what exactely was written before she changed it? :D

Alex but what if she was a he? And you guys are all going crazy about her writting.

[AlexM]

Mingshi...

He/she just called you a guy.

Dude, you are so dead. When Mingshi gets angry, she really gets angry: I heard she bit off Khaw Meng Lee's ear when he called her "fat" and broke a certain Team USA's hand when he got too "close" to her at the WKC. :D She's got an iaito coming in the mail too.

Disclaimer: Everything I have written is fictional... she bit off Meng's left finger and only broke tenken's/Chinen's hand during one of her (many) drunken rages at the WKC.

Look around: there's a photo of Mings floating around the boards somewhere... cross reference with beer, WKC and drunk.

[Tenken]

[Quote:AlexM] Dude, you are so dead. When Mingshi gets angry, she really gets angry: I heard she bit off Khaw Meng Lee's ear when he called her "fat" and broke a certain Team USA's hand when he got too "close" to her at the WKC. She's got an iaito coming in the mail too.

Oh really? She did something like that? Brake my hand? I never heard of that. :devious: I guess some people has been saying wierd things about me while I was laying low.

Oh and by the way, Mingshi IS a she, not a he. (Just for your info.)