Double Layer Keiko Gi?

[Sakabato]

I'm about to get my Keiko Gi, but I've been having some debates on what to get. This is one of my options: http://www.e-bogu.com/Shoaizome_10000_Hakama_Double_Layer_Set_p/ebo-com-hak-10000combo-.htm I was wondering if the double thick layer of cotton would be helpful? Winter is also coming up which means it'll get colder. I'm the type of guy who gets cold easily. Even in hot weather I tend to feel slightly coldish, so sometimes it is common for me to walk with a sweater on under the sun (Weird?). I also wondered if the thick layer of cotton would be helpful to lessen (Slightly) the strikes of a shinai when someone has poor aim? Such as when you get hit in the ribs or the elbows? I would think that the extra padding could be slightly helpful... no? It would be nice if someone could mention some cons and pros regarding this type of double layer gi (Aside from the price).

Thanks guys (In Advance!) I really appreciate your comments.

[ender84567]

I dont really notice temperature that much, but i prefer the double layer gi in both winter and summer because it is more absorbent and wicks sweat better.

[b8amack]

If you're getting cold, then it's just the thing. Can't say it makes much of a difference on errant rib strikes, though.

[alfanator]

Its biggest benefit is preventing you from turning into a smurf, the inner second layer is quite thin. I do not think it offers too much more protection or warmth over single layer indigo dyed of the same weave. Consider wearing the white under gi (forgot what it is called in Japanese) or a v-neck short sleeve sweat wicking T-shirts, seen some people use that, not sure if its kosher though.

[ender84567]

Its biggest benefit is preventing you from turning into a smurf, the inner second layer is quite thin. I do not think it offers too much more protection or warmth over single layer indigo dyed of the same weave. Consider wearing the white under gi (forgot what it is called in Japanese) or a v-neck short sleeve sweat wicking T-shirts, seen some people use that, not sure if its kosher though.

Not true, you may be thinking of the hidritex type with the inner lining, which are also usually chemically dyed. this is an actual double layer indigo dyed gi they are looking at, will turn you blue. Doesn't matter if its single or double layer. The double layer are considerably thicker than the singles when you are comparing 2 high end shoaizome gi.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Not true, you may be thinking of the hidritex type with the inner lining, which are also usually chemically dyed. this is an actual double layer indigo dyed gi they are looking at, will turn you blue. Doesn't matter if its single or double layer. The double layer are considerably thicker than the singles when you are comparing 2 high end shoaizome gi.It depends on which brand you get. On some of the nicer ones, the inner layer is dyed differently and you definitely are less blue.

[alfanator]

I got the Osakura brand double layer indigo. The inner layer is light blue and it did not turn me as blue as the single layer i got some years ago from Koei except around the collar where the outer layer is folded in. And it has a nice soft comfy breathable looser weave on the outer layer. Might not be good for keeping you warm though, but I am usually only cold for about the first 10 mins in the dead of winter with no heat in the gym.

[Inner_Silence]

hey, Ive bought this keikogi+hakama (http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=539&CatID=26) about a year ago. I can say that Ive used them a lot and it still looks awesome. the double layer gi is very interesting. I can tell that there is a big difference between the double layer adn the single layer that I have. the double layered is very soft but also its very heavy, we train in a closed space that gets really hot in summer, if I transpire a lot, after an hour the gi really absorbs the water and you start to feel the weight. after a while you get used to it, but I feel its just too hot to be healty. anyway this only happens once a week and only when its really hot.

in winter its awesome, Ive never felt cold with that, even when its freezing, that reduces the chances of getting injured. most of the times we train when its already at night so I generally use it. only in really hot mid days I would use something else.

also I think that the softness and thicness of the cloth absorbs wrong hits in the elbow or under the arms.

also its important, when you practice shiai sith someone an you have a really awesome gear it makes you feel good and it may make your opponent think that you are stronger than he is.

so, if you ask me, I say go for it.

[Sakabato]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.

So, aside from the double layer Keiko Gi I should invest in a sweat absorbent undershirt? I've been wondering about this but... is the dye used for these Gis harmful when absorbed by the body? I ask because they tend to stain a lot on your skin.

Do you guys ever think about wearing a heavier Gi everyday for practice then when tournaments come around wear a light (Summer?) Gi? The weight differences wouldn't be too great, but it could help by a small margin, I think.

Another question I've got about the Gi is regarding the Senui (Back Stitch) technique used on the back. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--6.jpg Does this offer any sort of comfort or flexibility for the Gi itself? Close to about all the other Gi's I've seen sold do not have this feature. In fact, I've looked at other people's Keiko Gi and I've yet to notice this feature on any of their uniforms. In the Gi's description it states the technique is used on Kimonos, so what does it offer to us during practice?

Next question is about the quilting at the bottom. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--5.jpg What is it for exactly? They say it is for comfort, so I'm guessing that part on the Gi tends to rub a lot against your body? Or is it to help against blows delivered by Shinai that somehow slip past the armor?

Oh, Another thing I noticed is that the outer layer is darker than the inner layer. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--4.jpg The inner layer is lighter so does this mean it will be less likely to stain than with other Keiko Gis?

Inner_Silence that Keiko Gi looks really nice too. They seem to cost about the same, but look quite different. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--4.jpg compared to http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=229&CatID=26 Mainly the grain finish that looks like linked chains. I do wonder how that feels compared with this Keiko Gi. The dyeing process is BUSHU which according to ebogu "Made in Saitama prefecture, in the Bushu area. This area of Japan is famous for Bushu Shoaizome dyeing process. Very popular among the top ranking Senseis." They use that for the Hakama they sell in the combo but not for the top Gi itself. I live close to Ebogu so I can pick stuff up from there rather than spending $ on shipping.

As a final note would a Gi like this stand up to the daily wear in practice and last longer than a cheaper 60-100 $$ type?

Oh one final question, I keep seeing 8,000 10,000 and 11,000 in some of these uniforms. Is that the number of stitches? What does it stand for exactly? If it is more stitches does that offer a better fit?

[ender84567]

Hi guys, thanks for your replies.

So, aside from the double layer Keiko Gi I should invest in a sweat absorbent undershirt? I've been wondering about this but... is the dye used for these Gis harmful when absorbed by the body? I ask because they tend to stain a lot on your skin.

Indigo shouldnt be harmful, I dont wear anything under the gi, it interferes with the gi's absorbtion/wicking imho. Indigo is naturally antiseptic.




Do you guys ever think about wearing a heavier Gi everyday for practice then when tournaments come around wear a light (Summer?) Gi? The weight differences wouldn't be too great, but it could help by a small margin, I think.


No, As i said before, I always wear the thicker gi for sweat absorbtion.




Another question I've got about the Gi is regarding the Senui (Back Stitch) technique used on the back. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--6.jpg Does this offer any sort of comfort or flexibility for the Gi itself? Close to about all the other Gi's I've seen sold do not have this feature. In fact, I've looked at other people's Keiko Gi and I've yet to notice this feature on any of their uniforms. In the Gi's description it states the technique is used on Kimonos, so what does it offer to us during practice?


No idea, its likely just marketing speak, I havent noticed any additional flexibilty/comfort with this gi over others.





Next question is about the quilting at the bottom. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--5.jpg What is it for exactly? They say it is for comfort, so I'm guessing that part on the Gi tends to rub a lot against your body? Or is it to help against blows delivered by Shinai that somehow slip past the armor?

Makes the bottom part softer, most of the higher end gi's will be quilted on the bottom.




Oh, Another thing I noticed is that the outer layer is darker than the inner layer. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--4.jpg The inner layer is lighter so does this mean it will be less likely to stain than with other Keiko Gis?

Yes, this is what neil mentioned above, you still get blue however.





Inner_Silence that Keiko Gi looks really nice too. They seem to cost about the same, but look quite different. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--4.jpg compared to http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=229&CatID=26 Mainly the grain finish that looks like linked chains. I do wonder how that feels compared with this Keiko Gi. The dyeing process is BUSHU which according to ebogu "Made in Saitama prefecture, in the Bushu area. This area of Japan is famous for Bushu Shoaizome dyeing process. Very popular among the top ranking Senseis." They use that for the Hakama they sell in the combo but not for the top Gi itself. I live close to Ebogu so I can pick stuff up from there rather than spending $ on shipping.

As a final note would a Gi like this stand up to the daily wear in practice and last longer than a cheaper 60-100 $$ type?

Last about the same in my experience but the nicer gi's tend to age better than cheaper ones.





Oh one final question, I keep seeing 8,000 10,000 and 11,000 in some of these uniforms. Is that the number of stitches? What does it stand for exactly? If it is more stitches does that offer a better fit?
Its the weight of the cloth, the higher the number (in lbs or # is how it is usually listed) the heavier/thicker the cloth. This is usually more important for the hakama. The heavier the weight the stiffer it is, and the better it holds the pleats.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another question I've got about the Gi is regarding the Senui (Back Stitch) technique used on the back. http://www.e-bogu.com/v/vspfiles/photos/EBO-COM-HAK-10000COMBO--6.jpg Does this offer any sort of comfort or flexibility for the Gi itself? Close to about all the other Gi's I've seen sold do not have this feature.It's normal on better-quality keikogi, and you see the same feature on good judogi. For kendogi it allows a better fit, although of course buying only from a few stock sizes like e-bogu sells you may not see this. Other manufacturers will offer half-sizes and long sizes.

As a final note would a Gi like this stand up to the daily wear in practice and last longer than a cheaper 60-100 $$ type?Maybe. Frankly they last pretty long, probably you will want to buy a new one due to fading or just wanting a new one before they wear out past usability. What you will find with a good double-layer is that it is more comfortable, fits better, looks better and protects better. Once you use one you probably won't want to go back to single-layer unless it's for a hot summer.

Oh one final question, I keep seeing 8,000 10,000 and 11,000 in some of these uniforms. Is that the number of stitches?That's for hakama, it refers to the thread density of the material. Higher means heavier/stiffer.

[Sakabato]

Hi guys, Thanks for the replies again.

So that's nice to know about the indigo dye. Talking about long or short sizes... this is for people with a long/short torso? Or?.. So does E-Bogu have a short selection for Kendo uniforms? Is there any other place I should be looking into? Somewhere that has nice Keiko Gis for sale that are worth the price? I think I'll be able to spend around 300$$ or more on the uniform so I should make the buy count. Any links to other high end places will be welcomed.

Thanks again guys!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Long sizes are for slimmer people. Most Japanese sizing seems to assume that if you are a size 5 you are overweight as well as tall. So at 6' tall and 185 lbs I prefer a 4L as I'm usually swimming in a 5. The downside is that the nicer keikogi are often sized only for Japanese people, so getting a size bigger than 4 is an issue for some brands.

Tozando has a nice selection of double-layer keikogi here (http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/266.htm).

[turboyoshi]

Indigo is naturally antiseptic.


I've heard this before but I find it hard to believe. Is there any actual evidence to support that? I suspect most of it's alleged antibacterial properties has to do with the fact that the dye keeps rubbing off and therefore revealing cleaner dye underneath. After that point, I bet it's just as unsanitary as any other gi would get. I worry that people would decide to wash their gi less thinking it's got some mojo self-cleaning properties built-in.

[Sakabato]

Hi Neil,

Well, I've got to say this set looks to be quite nice http://www.tozandoshop.com/Tournamentists_Choice_Gold_Zen_Kendo_Gi_Hakama_p/set140.htm The price though did go higher than I expected. That set reminds me of the other that was mentioned earlier from the UK http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=539&CatID=26 A 11,000 Hakama and double layer Keiko Gi. One dyed with Bushu Shoaizome and the other with Bushu Aizome.... Is there a difference between Shoaizome and plain Aizome?.... So what exactly justifies the additional 281.00$$ in price difference? Is it the brand name? Is that what you are paying for after a certain point with more expensive Keiko Gi? Well, at least with the Tozando Gi you get a Kendo Obi.... Is that even necessary? Or is it just for showing off? It would be nice if they offered a free shipping option after a certain point of spending.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The Tozando price is about what I'd expect to pay for that quality. That particular model is the "bio" keikogi, which is treated with enzymes to be very soft. One downside of that particular model, if is similar to the one I had from Koei, is that the material is so soft it's easy to snag a thread and pull a loop out. Very comfy, looks gorgeous but quite heavy and hot. As to why the 9 circles stuff is so much cheaper I can't say exactly but you are not comparing brand to brand there. If you want more detail contact Andy Fisher, he's the rep for Tozando/Miyako around here. PM d'artagnan here.

If you want a nice one for everyday use look at the Jin. It's still double layer but a lot lighter.

[Sakabato]

Hi Neil,

I see, I looked at the JIN type Keiko Gi. Is it just me or does it look slightly purpleish (Violet?). So then with that I'd have to pick up a Hakama on the side. On a side question, what type of Keiko Gi do you currently use that is double layer? And about the Kendo Obi... what is the purpose of it? Is it for added tightness and comfort? The other model included one.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm using Jin. You will find that the natural dye varies, it can start out looking quite purple especially in hakama. I don't use an obi. Usually only iaidoka use them, the purpose is to hold the saya firmly and to lend support.

Really if you have further questions about Tozando's gear, contact Andy. He will be happy to help.

[Lloromannic]

Depending on your location, a double layer can get unbearably hot. I know that here in Katsuura we would have died if we wore one in the summer. Also, do look into some of the korean vendor sites because as it happens, most dogi and hakama are made there and then imported into japan at a rather large markup.

[Sakabato]

I'm using Jin. You will find that the natural dye varies, it can start out looking quite purple especially in hakama. I don't use an obi. Usually only iaidoka use them, the purpose is to hold the saya firmly and to lend support.

Really if you have further questions about Tozando's gear, contact Andy. He will be happy to help.

Yeah I tried to send him a PM but got this:

"D'Artagnan has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."

So... I guess I'll just have to wait and see if he clears any space. Regarding Koei, I visited their site, but could not find any sort of catalog with their items. The main page mainly states to send an e-mail to them for an item inquiry. I use firefox maybe the site doesn't work properly with my browser? Or do they only work through e-mail? You mentioned that you got a Keiko Gi set from Koei before and that it was similar to the one I showed you from Tozando. How much did they sell it to you for?

[D'Artagnan]

Hi!

Sorry, I need to clear out my inbox...

I am planning to write an in-depth guide about Hakama and Kendogi, similar to the one I wrote for Bogu, but I haven't had time to sit down and do it recently. So I'll put some points here in the hope that it helps. If there is any more info I can provide, feel free to email me on fisher@tozando.com.

Single vs. Double Layer -

Single Layer Kendogi are generally cheaper than double layer Kendogi, they are lighter and cooler to wear, but offer less protection from missed-strikes and are less durable. Good quality Single-layer Kendogi look very similar to Double-layer Kendogi when worn, so are popular amongst people who often feel hot in practice, or during the summer. Also, cheaper models are popular with beginners and university students due to their low cost. As you would expect, the Single Layer means that you are more likely to turn blue, as it does not have the second, lining-layer.

Double Layer Kendogi are generally more expensive, and refer to Kendogi which have a lining layer, usually made using a different coloured cloth (usually lighter blue) which offers more quilting, and therefore more protection, durability and doesn't turn you as blue. However, this makes the Kendogi warmer to wear and may not be suited to hotter climates or summer practice. Generally double-layer Kendogi are considered to look more 'correct'.

Backseam (Setsugi/背継) -

A seam which runs along the length of the spine is a feature offered 'mainly' on higher-end Kendogi. It is not something that is going massively affect the performance of the Kendogi, however, it has two main purposes -

Firstly, it makes the Kendogi easier to keep-flat against your back when tying the Hakama, making it easier to ensure it does not bunch-up at the back.

Secondly, it makes it less likely to move at the point where it is tucked into the Koshi-ita of the Hakama during keiko, therefore, it is easier to maintain the correct appearance also.

Ishi-zashi -

Most double-layer Kendogi and some better quality single-layer Kendogi, feature 'Ishi-zashi' at the bottom section. This is basically a large, diamond-shaped stitching pattern, and is mainly decorative, but also offers improved comfort.

Hakama Cotton -

There are various 'grades' of cotton used to make Hakama, the most common ones are #8,000, #8,800, #10,000 and #11,000. Much like Bogu, there is a HUGE misunderstanding that this number equates to the quality Hakama/Cotton. It literally ONLY refers to the weight of the cloth, and has nothing to do with the quality. The heavier the cloth, the thicker and obviously heavier the Hakama will be. However, it does not really relate to how well the Hakama will hold the pleats, rather that is down to the quality of the tailoring.

Thanks to the way the dying process affects the cotton, most Hakama feel 'stiff' and quite coarse when brand new, however, a good quality cotton (no matter which weight) will become much softer/smoother and more comfortable over time, this will also help the Hakama 'hang' correctly. Poor quality material will retain its cardboard-esque texture throughout its life, and will always feel quite rough and be less comfortable to wear - this will also affect how well it holds the pleats.

Dye -

The Dye used to colour the Hakama and Kendogi is an important, but often over-looked point. Cheaper garments are dyed using synthetic dye, which does not have the same colour as genuine shoaizome, nor will it change colour in the same way over time. 'Aizome' literally means 'indigo dye' and 'Shoaizome' is 'real' indigo dye, though the terms are generally used interchangeably for items dyed using genuine, Japanese-type indigo dye. 'Bushu' refers to an old area in current Saitama prefecture where traditional, Japanese indigo dying has been famous for hundreds of years.

In Japan, Aizome-dyed goods and wears are popular in many walks of life not just in Kendo, and are appreciated for their beautiful colour, as well as their link to the days of old. Good quality Aizome is said to contain natural anti-bacterial and de-deodorizing properties. Therefore clothes dyed using Aizome do not need regular washing, rather they should be washed (comparatively) rarely in order to keep the expensive dye from fading. For this reason, it is said that Aizome clothing was the choice of the Bushi (warriors), who would spend long periods away at battle, with little access to washing facilities. Thus, partly due to these qualities, and partly for the sake of tradition, Aizome is considered the best choice for Kendo garments.

The exact colour of Aizome varies, but to the experienced eye it is distinguishable from synthetic alternatives. Different levels of quality are also in existence, with better ones offering a 'nicer' colour, as well as tending to fade less.

Aizome means that you WILL turn blue. These days, most garments have been pre-washed and pre-fixed, however, it tends to make little difference. Many people like to 'set' the dye by soaking the garment in vinegar when it is new, some people say it works, some people say it doesn't. There is also a view held by many practitioners the turning blue process is an important 'rite of passage' in ownership of your Kendo equipment. In that, one must 'bear' the discomfort of having the skin turn blue, and once the dye stops running the garment can be finally considered 'one's own'...

Price -

So what actually determines the price? To be honest, in the current market it can be really hard to tell good deals from rip-offs... There are now LOADS of cheap, Made in China, 'Aizome'-dyed Double Layer Kendogi / #11,000 Hakama on the market, and it is confusing because looking at the specifications they look great, and sometimes they are - but like with most things in Kendo (and life), ultimately you get what you pay for.

Generally expensive garments are expensive for the following reasons -

- They are made by skilled tailors - often in Japan.

Therefore they tend to fit nicer, last longer and look better (i.e. hold the pleats).

- They are made using good quality fabric.

Therefore they are comfortable, last longer and look better (again holding pleats)

- They are dyed using GOOD Aizome

Therefore they look better in terms of colour, they will age better and will not require frequent washing.

So with that being said, it is not unusual to find a hakama like this -

http://www.tozandoshop.com/Deluxe_Bushu_Indigo_Dyed_Cotton_Hakama_p/001-khzs[22].htm

being more expensive than some #10,000 or even #11,000 Hakama that are on the market these days.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope it's helpful!

Andy

[Sakabato]

Hi Andy,

Yes! Your inbox does need a little clean up :). I tried sending another PM just now after seeing your post, but the box still seems full. Thank you for this detailed post you made. It answered several of my questions. I will check out your Online Kendo Shop Miyako Kendogu. I like how it offers free international shipping on items. If Tozando had something similar I wouldn't have second thoughts on making a purchase.

[alfanator]

Thanks Andy, great write up. Quick question, How does one differentiate between good and poor Indigo?

[D'Artagnan]

Hi,

Actually it can be quite hard to determine the quality of the Aizome, however, in general there are 3 main ways -

- Price - This would seem to be the most obvious, and the easiest method. Basically (in general) the more you pay for a garment, the better quality Aizome will be used.

- Colour - Quite hard to judge, especially when you can't compare it face to face with other Hakama, however, lesser-quality Aizome tends to be slightly more 'red-ish' in colour, with top quality Aizome being a deep, rich blue.

- Smell - Believe it or not, good quality Aizome has a very strong smell, which to non-kendoka can be thought of as a bit unpleasant, however, experienced Kendo-ka generally 'appreciate' the smell of a good Aizome.

Like I said, determining the good quality and poor quality dyes is quite tricky, especially when the garments are new. However, in time the quality of the Aizome will become obvious with how the colour changes over time.

Hope that helps anyway!

[ender84567]

- Smell - Believe it or not, good quality Aizome has a very strong smell, which to non-kendoka can be thought of as a bit unpleasant, however, experienced Kendo-ka generally 'appreciate' the smell of a good Aizome.


Man I love that smell. mmm, they should make it into a cologne...... then again I also love the way my bogu smells when it has been heated in the sun... and it just kinda wafts in the air.... smells like victory.

[Sakabato]

Hi all,

So I've been looking around at different Keiko Gi and really liked the one from Tozando http://www.tozandoshop.com/Tournamentists_Choice_Gold_Zen_Kendo_Gi_Hakama_p/set140.htm however, I was pretty turned off by the international shipping charge (About 54$ bucks UPS and 75$ EMS). I e-mailed Koei to check if they had anything similar, but never got an answer from them. So what happened was that I stumbled upon www.boguzen.com and spotted the exact same Keiko Gi which is manufactured by Sankei. Co in Japan, 3.00$ cheaper, and free shipping on orders over 100$ in the USA (400$ for Europe and apparently provide discount for other international customers). Sooo... I think I will go with them, unless something better arises. I did e-mail Tozando asking if they had any sort of free shipping option when you place a purchase over a certain amount of money, but was told no option existed. They did tell me that they provide a discount on orders over 100,000 yen (1,227 USD) to international customers. As to how much that discount is they couldn't really say. The one down side is that Boguzen does not provide a Kendo Obi belt (Priced 36.82 at Tozando) like Tozando does. Though as Neil mentioned earlier "Usually only iaidoka use them, the purpose is to hold the saya firmly and to lend support." So I won't worry too much about it. Everyone at both sites were really helpful, thank you Andy.

[alfanator]

Not true, you may be thinking of the hidritex type with the inner lining, which are also usually chemically dyed. this is an actual double layer indigo dyed gi they are looking at, will turn you blue. Doesn't matter if its single or double layer. The double layer are considerably thicker than the singles when you are comparing 2 high end shoaizome gi.

I took a close look at my old Koei gi and you are correct, it is double layer and it did turn me blue for weeks when new. The new ones from Osakura and onlinekendo did not, so Neil is correct that it depends on the brand and specs. I much prefer the latter :)

[Sakabato]

Hi all,

I visited two local bogu suppliers and checked their Keiko Gi. I got to say that as you work your way up in price the quality of what you get greatly differs. The cheapest Gi I looked at first felt pretty rough to the touch, kind of like a rough set of jeans, and lacked detail. The color too seemed much more darker and plain. Then as I went up the line detail became more apparent, the colors of the Gi became easier on the eyes, and the stitching/detail stood out. What I noticed the most was the feel of the fabric. Top of the line Gi have a feel similar to soft cotton balls. All the Gi were made out of cotton. The addition of the back stitching + quilting at the bottom + double layer is also very nice. Even the fabric itself has more detail. After looking at them I think getting a well priced Keiko Gi is worth the extra $$$. I also wondered if anyone have had any experiences with the following Gi http://www.zen-sankei.co.jp/en/syou.php

[naj]

I live and train in Japan and for summer, the difference between thickness of various materials matters a lot. Our dojo does not have air con, so there is often high humidity and temperatures close to 40C. In double layer, one can easily overheat and literally lose consciousness (not that it ever happened to me, but it is a cause of body overheating). In single layer, the sweat in contact with the skin still does what it's supposed to do (cools down the skin) and helps to control the body temperature. I never ever had problem like this living anywhere else, until moving to Japan.

[AndreiB]

Thanks for the information all - can anyone advise if it is rare to see double layered gi in Australia? From my experience even light training in the middle of winter will get you to a reasonable level of warmth. It just sounds like the double-layered clothing might not match the hotter climate, even though it may be considered more 'correct' dress.

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you want to wear double-layer in hotter weather, consider a lighter one like the Jin. When I first got it I was a bit disappointed as it was much thinner than other double-layers I had used. But I'm very happy with it as a daily wear keikogi, even in summer. Granted, our summers are not Australian or Japanese ones. Anything over 30 is quite a hot day here.

[Sakabato]

Hi all,

I'm thinking if it gets too hot in the summer I'll just switch to a single layer. I live in Los Angeles, so I am not sure how the weather here compares to Japan. I am not sure if the Dojo I practice at has AC; it might! However, last time it was pretty hot, but once you entered the Dojo it felt much cooler. Maybe it is because it is pretty spacious. I'm guessing the main problem would be humidity. On another note... would a hand stitched Keiko Gi be cooler and lighter than a machine stitched one?

Here is a question: Are the top Kendogi from E-Bogu OEM? Are they made in Japan? or made somewhere else? Is "Tessin" a brand manufactured in Japan?