sports chanbara

[niall]

Article on sports chanbara (sword fighting with air-filled sticks) from this week's Japan Times:

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20101017x3.html

The founder of chanbara says:

"The problem with kendo is that it has too many rules," said Tanabe, 67, adding that in many countries, it is practiced only by a small group of fanatics.

Hmmm... :rambo:

[ScottUK]

To each their own - but I just don't see how people can call Sports Chanbara a martial art.

I reckon I would enjoy growing an Errol Flynn 'tache, learning the rapier and swinging from chandeliers much more...

[ender84567]

I dont think the problem with kendo is the rules, I agree with the small group of fanatics however. The problem is not the rules but the fact that there are too many ed grubermans' that wanna beat people up right now cause they got the pajamas. And they aren't willing to put the time/effort in to actually learn kendo.

Also he is quoted as saying its useful for defense to which I have to reply BULLSHIT

[ScottUK]

I reckon Chanbara could be used for defence once the apocalypse has come around...

[Kokoro777]

Its just flailing around with lengths of foam! Its looks like fun, so they shouldn't try and justify it with anything profound or spiritual-it is what it is. But it does make you wonder if this is more like what actual sword-play degenerated into on the battlefield. I wonder if the IOC are investigating it for inclusion.

[ender84567]

I reckon Chanbara could be used for defence once the apocalypse has come around...

Lord Humongous laughs at your puny foam sword.

[ScottUK]

Hehe I meant after the apocalypse and we are back to using clubs...

[pgsmith]

"The problem with kendo is that it has too many rules," said Tanabe, 67, adding that in many countries, it is practiced only by a small group of fanatics.
That's certainly true enough, but I wouldn't label it a problem myself. What I think is funny is how Tanabe's attitude has changed over the years as spochan has gotten more popular. He used to say that he started it so that kids could have fun and get interested in the sword arts without the difficulty and expense associated with kendo. Now he's changed what he says to try and make spochan look more serious and sports-like, rather than simply flailing each other with foam boffers.

Ah well, it's said that success changes us all, but I've never had enough success myself to find out if that's true first-hand. :)

[ender84567]

Hehe I meant after the apocalypse and we are back to using clubs...

You keep your club. I'll keep my distance with my sawed off double barrel in my V8 interceptor.

[ScottUK]

Gonna be a hell of a sitting duck with no fuel, bitch. I will load up my trebuchet.

(good to see Chambara is generating another pointless thread - no offence, Niall)

[ender84567]

you probably need at least 3 shots to range me in.

[ScottUK]

...over a longer range than a sawn-off. ;)

[ender84567]

Plenty of time to unpack the mauser and adjust the scope though.

[ScottUK]

While you were unpacking I would run at you with my rubber chanbara sword...

(proves point)

[ender84567]

Well quickly remebering you are from the UK I would break out a flag and plant it in the ground... and we all know that means I win.

[ScottUK]

(damnation)

[hl1978]

"The problem with kendo is that it has too many rules," said Tanabe, 67, adding that in many countries, it is practiced only by a small group of fanatics. "

There is some truth to this in terms of limited appeal. The startup costs to participate in kendo are signifigantly higher than other martial arts. Since kendo may or may not be of use for self defense, unless you live in a place with a strong knife culture (say the philippines or south america) it is harder to justify. Given the recent popularity of MMA in the west in the past 20 years, point fighting kickboxing tournaments have lost some of their popularity and "no rules" or perhaps more limited rulesets have become more popular. Likewise the matches are of limited appeal to the non-enthusiast whereas empty hand striking or grappling to a lesser extent is much more "exciting" to the layman and olympic fencing's electronic scoring makes it easier for the non-enthusiast to understand how a point was awarded.

Sport chanbara is accessible in terms of costs, but I have no idea how it is taught. If I did more research, I am sure I could find out if there is a defined curriculum or what percentage is formal instruction versus lets just all go at it with foam swords. I do think the concept is not bad for JSA practicioners who don't practice kendo, but I think a less floppy training tool might be better for that sort of pressure testing /free form environment. I'd personally love to be able to try cuts to the thighs, upwards cuts and other style cuts that we practice in iaido. Chanbara seems fine for its audience, but heck its name alone shouldn't have one come to think that it is a "serious" study of japanese swordsmanship. That being said, if someone showed up at the dojo with some chanbara swords for fun, I would have a go at it after class!

[pgsmith]

Sorry Ender,
The computer gods won't allow me to rep you for that excellent response!

[krys]

Chanbara seems fine for its audience, but heck its name alone shouldn't have one come to think that it is a "serious" study of japanese swordsmanship.You think that but then they start to call it 'japanese swordmanship', 'new and safer version of kendo', 'the modern kendo', 'modern martial art and combat sport', and then invent the new name 'spochan', so suddenly it is very serious now.

[krys]

I'd personally love to be able to try cuts to the thighs, upwards cuts and other style cuts that we practice in iaido.On youtube you will find films on 'how to make a foam sword'. I made a few.

[snooz2k2]

Thing is : when chanbara will enter the Olympics (I am sure they will, one day), it will certainly wipe out Kendo and drain its membership, and we will all end up doing that stuff ... ... So better get accustomed to the idea. :-)

[Missingno.]

Thing is : when chanbara will enter the Olympics (I am sure they will, one day), it will certainly wipe out Kendo and drain its membership, and we will all end up doing that stuff ... ... So better get accustomed to the idea. :-)

You're joking, but I'll gladly take that bet if you want.

[Anonymous]

You know, they actually have nerf swords and battle axes now...

[hl1978]

On youtube you will find films on 'how to make a foam sword'. I made a few.

I think one of the other JSA groups at our dojo uses them on occasion. There is some video out on youtube with some of the members of the budokai utilizing them. As you can see in the below video they don't deform like the sports chanabara ones. How well have yours held up?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INB1odZkZo0&feature=related

[alfanator]

Looks like fun! I did this with my cousins growing up with broom sticks and with my kids with nerf swords (and nerf guns).

Not sure if it is worth subscribing into the spochan federation and get sucked into some pyramid scheme just to play nerf wars.

Wait a minute, maybe i could start my own spochan organization and make a bunch of money from me padwans and selling pipe insulation swords too....I shall call it "7 minute Samurai chanarara yamaba jedi bubushishi ryu of the ninja clan McCloud" mu hahahahahaha.

[Agricola]

I think one of the other JSA groups at our dojo uses them on occasion. There is some video out on youtube with some of the members of the budokai utilizing them. As you can see in the below video they don't deform like the sports chanabara ones. How well have yours held up?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INB1odZkZo0&feature=related

That looked pretty good you were able to practice Kendo without the bulky armour, the combat was also easier to watch, atleast for a layman such as myself. The Kendo bogu and shinai were developed in a bygone age, if there is a governing body (I'm sure there is) perhaps they should consider changing things for these times? Using shinai made as in this video would allow users to have armour that is far cheaper, I understand that it's tradition and in the spirit of Kendo to wear the armour but it could be a fraction of the cost it is today.

Also why not introduce electrics? In olympic fencing you no longer need a wire to attatch you to a box, high level competitions have wireless now. Also a fabric is being developed and will soon be on the market that can detect hits without the need to be wired to anything, all things that could help in Kendo. Making a shinai that is conductive with bogu that have conductive points at the areas you score would help judging and spectating.

Whatever this chanbara is (I'm not sure myself) I think the tools used are an example of the way forward for Kendo. The way I see it is that when the bogu and shinai were first brought about they were created with only practicality in mind, they broke with tradition or the norm. Now in this day and age the tradition of wearing them has perhaps become a liability itself when so many more practical alternatives are here.

[ben]

I disagree, for a whole lot of reasons.

b

[The great I AM]

That looked pretty good you were able to practice Kendo without the bulky armour, the combat was also easier to watch, atleast for a layman such as myself. The Kendo bogu and shinai were developed in a bygone age, if there is a governing body (I'm sure there is) perhaps they should consider changing things for these times? Using shinai made as in this video would allow users to have armour that is far cheaper, I understand that it's tradition and in the spirit of Kendo to wear the armour but it could be a fraction of the cost it is today.

Also why not introduce electrics? In olympic fencing you no longer need a wire to attatch you to a box, high level competitions have wireless now. Also a fabric is being developed and will soon be on the market that can detect hits without the need to be wired to anything, all things that could help in Kendo. Making a shinai that is conductive with bogu that have conductive points at the areas you score would help judging and spectating.

Whatever this chanbara is (I'm not sure myself) I think the tools used are an example of the way forward for Kendo. The way I see it is that when the bogu and shinai were first brought about they were created with only practicality in mind, they broke with tradition or the norm. Now in this day and age the tradition of wearing them has perhaps become a liability itself when so many more practical alternatives are here.If you want to practise without the issues of kendo armour, then don't do kendo. If you want to hit people with big rubber implements then do spochan.

Kendo is what it is, and to change it would be to make it not kendo, so why would we, who love fiercely what we do, advocate that? It would be like saying "I like rugby, you should allow outfield players to carry the ball in football". And armour isn't really a liability, within the confines of what kendo is, if you have even just a little experience with it. Once you get enough time with it, it's quite normal.

And as for why that stuff was created, Tanabe is a commercialist, and his stuff was created for a mass market that he developed. I'll stick with my kendo where the development of it, it's equipment, it's rules and it's ettitquette have a history behind them, and not a dollar sign.

[ScottUK]

Last two posts:

Nail. Head. Hit upon.

(EDIT: Ah, Ben - I preferred the original unedited post)

[Josh Reyer]

The fukuro-shinai has existed for 450 years, long before kendo bogu were invented, for the express purpose of doing full-contact practice (be it kata or shiai). It is, IMO, far, far, far superior than foam swords or the silly things sports chambara uses. So, the question becomes, with this technology available, why were the modern kendo bogu and shinai invented? And the answer is, because the goal of kendo is not point scoring.

[Agricola]

If you want to practise without the issues of kendo armour, then don't do kendo. If you want to hit people with big rubber implements then do spochan.

Kendo is what it is, and to change it would be to make it not kendo, so why would we, who love fiercely what we do, advocate that? It would be like saying "I like rugby, you should allow outfield players to carry the ball in football". And armour isn't really a liability, within the confines of what kendo is, if you have even just a little experience with it. Once you get enough time with it, it's quite normal.

And as for why that stuff was created, Tanabe is a commercialist, and his stuff was created for a mass market that he developed. I'll stick with my kendo where the development of it, it's equipment, it's rules and it's ettitquette have a history behind them, and not a dollar sign.

I wasn't suggesting no armour nor that you don't practice Kendo. What I was suggesting is changing the shinai so that it more resembles the shape and feel of a katana but is safer than a bamboo shinai. Using modern materials such as the swords demonstrated in the video or perhaps plastics you could easily achieve that, the result would mean you could make bogu from cheaper materials. If people want to keep using the traditional bogu and bamboo shinai then fine but not all can afford the traditional gear.

What I'm saying is it lowers the entry level for Kendo financialy, if you tell a parent they will have to shell out £200 - 400 on bogu that the child will no doubt grow out of in 3 months 99% will dismiss Kendo as an option. I think Kendo hurts itself due to the costs, I'm not saying change Kendo forever and burn the rule book I'm saying give your everyday person and parent a cheaper option. If they like it and stick with it then maybe at a certain level you can upgrade to a proper set?

I'm just saying that alot of the talk dismissing such ideas is counter productive to any sport or art form, all things need to evolve and change to suit their enviroment. The guy in the article did have a point about Kendo being too niche, if fencing hadn't evolved in the last 150 years we'd still be wearing a pair of wire mesh goggles and getting our faces slashed to ribbons with points de arrets being rammed up our noses!

[ScottUK]

if fencing hadn't evolved in the last 150 years we'd still be wearing a pair of wire mesh goggles and getting our faces slashed to ribbons with points de arrets being rammed up our noses!Only if you were crap at it.

Have you ever considered that kendo's anachronism is what makes its' tradition so interesting (and important)?

Why don't we replace the shinai with a paintball lance? Why don't we introduce wired swords and aluminium-impregnated bogu? In fact, why don't we all get sponsored by Adidas?

Because it would suck big hairy donkey balls, that's why. Just leave kendo to evolve at its own pace, just one milimetre at a time.

[ben]

I would also challenge the assumption that there is a "modern" substance that can stand up to the kind of abuse that bamboo can. One of the potential shortcomings of the katana-shaped boffers in the video posted above is that they seem to have very little tensile strength. A bamboo shinai, when it delivers a thrust, is capable of propelling a full-grown man backwards quite some distance, and can do so without breaking or shattering. When bamboo fails it splinters, but it does not shatter or explode (at least I have never seen such a thing). The inner fibres are not toxic (although splinters are indeed nasty). And bamboo is 100% biodegradable and a totally renewable resource. The same cannot be said for most plastics, nor carbon fibre.

As for cheaper materials making armour more affordable, they would also make armour less safe, less durable and less comfortable. Kendo does not deal in touches as does fencing. Admittedly some points in HS and uni kendo can be a bit light, but basic training always aims to cut, not touch. So we cannot dial down the level of force to allow more lightly made bogu without compromising the art itself. b

[hl1978]

The fukuro-shinai has existed for 450 years, long before kendo bogu were invented, for the express purpose of doing full-contact practice (be it kata or shiai). It is, IMO, far, far, far superior than foam swords or the silly things sports chambara uses. So, the question becomes, with this technology available, why were the modern kendo bogu and shinai invented? And the answer is, because the goal of kendo is not point scoring.

I'm not sure if I understand you. Sure I understand the goal of kendo is not point scoring (outside of shiai), and certainly one's equipment will effect how one practices. Could you expand on your thoughts a bit further?

[hl1978]

I would also challenge the assumption that there is a "modern" substance that can stand up to the kind of abuse that bamboo can. One of the potential shortcomings of the katana-shaped boffers in the video posted above is that they seem to have very little tensile strength. A bamboo shinai, when it delivers a thrust, is capable of propelling a full-grown man backwards quite some distance, and can do so without breaking or shattering. When bamboo fails it splinters, but it does not shatter or explode (at least I have never seen such a thing). The inner fibres are not toxic (although splinters are indeed nasty). And bamboo is 100% biodegradable and a totally renewable resource. The same cannot be said for most plastics, nor carbon fibre.

As for cheaper materials making armour more affordable, they would also make armour less safe, less durable and less comfortable. Kendo does not deal in touches as does fencing. Admittedly some points in HS and uni kendo can be a bit light, but basic training always aims to cut, not touch. So we cannot dial down the level of force to allow more lightly made bogu without compromising the art itself. b

Carbon fibre shinai?

The technology is out there to create carbon fibre from renewable resources. One of many such examples is US Patent application 2010/0047153. Further elements can be found in US 2008/119663 and PCT WO 2006/087084 just to name a few. Likewise carbon fibre recycling does exist, it just isn't economically competative at this point (separation of materials instead of just running it through a chipper) as it is cheaper to create new carbon fibre (roughly half the price when I looked into it), which is true of recycling in general. Its funny that this came up as I have looked into carbon fibre manufacturing costs for some car parts projects, and the recycling issue is well known considering that entire aircraft fuselages are being made out of it, the Boeing 787 for example, and it needed to be considered as part of its design life.

We have talked about it in the past, but there are all sorts of materials which could be used to improve bogu, microfibre for example, has excellent moisture wicking and antimicrobial properites. This stuff has been known for a LONG time (DuPont started looking into this in the 60's) see US patents 3699958,6258455 etc.

[ender84567]

carbon shinai suck the floppy donkey dick attached to the big hairy balls, and there are modern materials in bogu, clarino for one, but the various I leather and neo leathers being used now dry faster, and are in several respects better than traditional deerskin. My men has a dacron kawa to enhance moisture absorption as well. So they are already out there using them to improve bogu.

[ShinKenshi]

I wasn't suggesting no armour nor that you don't practice Kendo. What I was suggesting is changing the shinai so that it more resembles the shape and feel of a katana but is safer than a bamboo shinai. Using modern materials such as the swords demonstrated in the video or perhaps plastics you could easily achieve that, the result would mean you could make bogu from cheaper materials. If people want to keep using the traditional bogu and bamboo shinai then fine but not all can afford the traditional gear.

What I'm saying is it lowers the entry level for Kendo financialy, if you tell a parent they will have to shell out £200 - 400 on bogu that the child will no doubt grow out of in 3 months 99% will dismiss Kendo as an option. I think Kendo hurts itself due to the costs, I'm not saying change Kendo forever and burn the rule book I'm saying give your everyday person and parent a cheaper option. If they like it and stick with it then maybe at a certain level you can upgrade to a proper set?

I'm just saying that alot of the talk dismissing such ideas is counter productive to any sport or art form, all things need to evolve and change to suit their enviroment. The guy in the article did have a point about Kendo being too niche, if fencing hadn't evolved in the last 150 years we'd still be wearing a pair of wire mesh goggles and getting our faces slashed to ribbons with points de arrets being rammed up our noses!The argument that cost puts off people is a moot point. Look at the costs for ice hockey, lacrosse, American football, and other such equipment heavy sports. Do parents of children who want to play scoff at the costs and tell their kids they can't play? Do you see a decline in popularity of said sports due to the cost of equipment and practice time? On that note, it is worth mentioning that the aforementioned sports have much higher total costs associated with them (ice hockey not only has equipment costs but ice time fees as well, just as one example).

Artificial materials are being introduced to bogu and shinai already so your argument that kendo isn't evolving is also without merit. Shock absorbing materials such as sorbothane are currently being used in some bogu sets and carbon shinai are also available (albeit they're terrible in my opinion, just don't come close to the feel of a bamboo shinai). New artificial leathers and materials are also being integrated into bogu (look at Miyako Kendogu for a prime example) making them lighter and dry faster.

As Scott said, it's the adherence to tradition that makes kendo, and other traditional martial arts, so appealing. Take it for what it is and stop thinking that unless it's modern, shiny, and new it's crap.

Here's another thought. You sound like someone who thinks the purpose of kendo is to teach people how to fight with a sword and as such, it should replicate that feeling as closely as possible. I direct your attention here (http://www.kendo-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm). If you want to learn how to kill someone with a sword or how to properly handle one, start training in a koryu because you aren't going to learn that in kendo.

[Agricola]

I would also challenge the assumption that there is a "modern" substance that can stand up to the kind of abuse that bamboo can. One of the potential shortcomings of the katana-shaped boffers in the video posted above is that they seem to have very little tensile strength. A bamboo shinai, when it delivers a thrust, is capable of propelling a full-grown man backwards quite some distance, and can do so without breaking or shattering. When bamboo fails it splinters, but it does not shatter or explode (at least I have never seen such a thing). The inner fibres are not toxic (although splinters are indeed nasty). And bamboo is 100% biodegradable and a totally renewable resource. The same cannot be said for most plastics, nor carbon fibre.

As for cheaper materials making armour more affordable, they would also make armour less safe, less durable and less comfortable. Kendo does not deal in touches as does fencing. Admittedly some points in HS and uni kendo can be a bit light, but basic training always aims to cut, not touch. So we cannot dial down the level of force to allow more lightly made bogu without compromising the art itself. b

I suppose the biggest hurdle is the thrust, with cutting the shinai could be made from anything such as carbon fibre or plastic however the thrusts in Kendo pose a problem. How did the shinai in the video hold up when doing thrusts? I was just making suggestions so that it would be easier to get people into kendo and make it cheaper for kids, later on when you're certain you can graduate to a full bogu with bamboo shinai? Kendo does kind of price itself out of the market when it comes to martial arts, you can call the chanbara guy commercial but they don't give away bogu if you know what I mean?

Bogu is very expensive and most parents can't afford it. I couldn't afford to buy bogu for my son, it costs enough to keep replacing his clothes and shoes as it is and a bogu just isn't going to happen. I'm just saying take a leaf out of his book and make it cheap to get into, fencing does exactly the same as this guy and has foam weapons for kids to get them into it. The guys in the video seemed to be sparring safely with the air foam swords add some cheap plastic bogu and voila anyone can do kendo. If later on they decide they want to spar with the big boys they can invest in the proper gear and parents don't need to get a mortgage.

I don't understand why this idea would offend anyone if it brings more into the dojo and helps the sport/art grow?

[ender84567]

Bogu for children is not that expensive at all. e-bogu has a set for $250, and you typically buy large for children and pad it out and let them grow into it. As was mentioned ice hockey is way more expensive (where the term hockey dad comes from which means your dad will buy you whatever you need). Advanced material shinai and even chanbara swords are way more expensive than a bamboo shinai ($25 for a basic model) and in reality that is all you need to get started. You dont need bogu on day one. Many clubs also have rental sets, and for children there is a lot of reselling/borrowing if it is a group with a large amount of kids. All of your arguments are pretty much invalid.

Also as far as pricing out of the market, kendo dues are pretty cheap compared to your normal TKD stripmall that wants you to sign a 3 year contract at $500 a month or some such garbage.

[ScottUK]

I dunno if I am in a minority here - but don't you think you should take up traditional Japanese sword arts before commenting on points of tradition and modernisation?

Being the PR Officer of the British Kendo Association, it is my job to 'help the arts grow' - but not by sacrificing tradition, and definitely not by introducing something that our Japanese teachers do not advocate. That is just too high a price just to bring a few fantasists and jedi wannabe in to raise the bums-on-seats quota.

[ender84567]

I dunno if I am in a minority here - but don't you think you should take up traditional Japanese sword arts before commenting on points of tradition and modernisation?


Second.

[Agricola]

The argument that cost puts off people is a moot point. Look at the costs for ice hockey, lacrosse, American football, and other such equipment heavy sports. Do parents of children who want to play scoff at the costs and tell their kids they can't play? Do you see a decline in popularity of said sports due to the cost of equipment and practice time? On that note, it is worth mentioning that the aforementioned sports have much higher total costs associated with them (ice hockey not only has equipment costs but ice time fees as well, just as one example).

Artificial materials are being introduced to bogu and shinai already so your argument that kendo isn't evolving is also without merit. Shock absorbing materials such as sorbothane are currently being used in some bogu sets and carbon shinai are also available (albeit they're terrible in my opinion, just don't come close to the feel of a bamboo shinai). New artificial leathers and materials are also being integrated into bogu (look at Miyako Kendogu for a prime example) making them lighter and dry faster.

As Scott said, it's the adherence to tradition that makes kendo, and other traditional martial arts, so appealing. Take it for what it is and stop thinking that unless it's modern, shiny, and new it's crap.

Here's another thought. You sound like someone who thinks the purpose of kendo is to teach people how to fight with a sword and as such, it should replicate that feeling as closely as possible. I direct your attention here (http://www.kendo-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm). If you want to learn how to kill someone with a sword or how to properly handle one, start training in a koryu because you aren't going to learn that in kendo.

Well the sports you mentioned are all niche sports, certainly outside of North America just as Kendo is outside of Japan/Korea. The places parents do send their kids to play is where it is the national sport Canada or U.S.A and is supported through schools/colleges/universities and goverment grants. Try getting into those sports outside of North America and you'll hit the same road block. I see no popularity for American football outside the U.S.A, Ice Hockey is very unpopular outside maybe a 5 countries in the world and lacrosse is just non existant. So really your point is moot, if you think cash is not an issue in these hard times then I envy you.

I said Kendo needs to evolve to fit the times, the price needs to come down. Having new materials that just cost the same as before won't help increase accessability, if a gi for karate cost £400 and your kid grew out of it in 3 months then Karate would be about as popular as Kendo is right now.

I read your link about Kendo, although interesting it has nothing to do with this discussion which is about a sport/martial art that's pricing itself out of the market right now and during an economic depression. I was interested in discussing some other approaches but it seems few are interested in that and for some reason seem to show an irrational fear of discussing it like adults.

[ScottUK]

1) Kendo does not NEED to evolve.

2) Kendo as a martial art may be expensive, but my hang gliding is costing a damn sight more - somewhere around x10 cost. I guess it comes down to this - do you want to do kendo or not? It is still cheaper than golf or horse riding.

Maybe F1 racing should evolve to meet my needs of racing next to Jenson and Lewis on my budget of £500 a year?

This is getting stupid, gents. Don't make me order people to stand in the corner with dunce hats on.

[ScottUK]

I see no popularity for American football outside the U.S.AOh, and I am a qualified (BAFRA) referee for UK American Football, and we have over 150 teams here.

You can read more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAFA_Community_Leagues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Universities_American_Football_League

Once again, your argument is full of fail.

[ender84567]

Well the sports you mentioned are all niche sports, certainly outside of North America just as Kendo is outside of Japan/Korea. The places parents do send their kids to play is where it is the national sport Canada or U.S.A and is supported through schools/colleges/universities and goverment grants.

Try wrong, there really arent govt grants or school support for most of these sports. Maybe at the collegiate level, but you arent going to get someone to pay your way unless you started young. Growing up in michigan I know plenty of people that did all 3 lacross, hockey and football (and in a couple cases sailing as well). Their parents somehow were able not only to buy them equipment but also pay for the various fees and trips involved.



Try getting into those sports outside of North America and you'll hit the same road block. I see no popularity for American football outside the U.S.A, Ice Hockey is very unpopular outside maybe a 5 countries in the world and lacrosse is just non existant. So really your point is moot, if you think cash is not an issue in these hard times then I envy you.

Maybe you just need to spend your time looking for a job instead of posting on a kendo forum then if cash is that tight for you in these hard times.



I said Kendo needs to evolve to fit the times, the price needs to come down. Having new materials that just cost the same as before won't help increase accessability, if a gi for karate cost £400 and your kid grew out of it in 3 months then Karate would be about as popular as Kendo is right now.

doubtfull, kendo is a much higher level art, this is a discussion that happens all the time, in karate or TKD its possible to show up and after a month of practice by virtue of being faster and stronger win tournaments. That will never be the case in kendo, there is a lot of patience involved until you get 'good' at it, and because of this is will always be less popular than arts that have competitions that have devolved into point sparring.




I read your link about Kendo, although interesting it has nothing to do with this discussion which is about a sport/martial art that's pricing itself out of the market right now and during an economic depression. I was interested in discussing some other approaches but it seems few are interested in that and for some reason seem to show an irrational fear of discussing it like adults.

Here you go with economic depression again, well go find a job and get off benefits then. Basic needs are always more important than activities and if you are below the poverty line you shouldnt be doing things like karate/TKD either because its an extra monthly fee. Arguments can be made for everything, it comes down to if its important to you, you find the money and make sacrifices elsewhere. Its not a true barrier to entry (see above, you only need a shinai to start). Maybe you should go try kendo before you start worrying about our image problem. Fencing has the same issue, except you need the equipment to start. I looked into my local fencing club and they want $600 equipment fee to get outfitted for the first practice, compare that to my first kendo practice that cost me $30 and included a shinai...

[EndureForte]

To each their own - but I just don't see how people can call Sports Chanbara a martial art.

I reckon I would enjoy growing an Errol Flynn 'tache, learning the rapier and swinging from chandeliers much more...

Agreed. Probably get more chicks that way too.

[ScottUK]

...and after all, this is the real reason we become armoured killing machines.

I am stunned that the ZNKR missed that out on their Purpose of Kendo statement.

[The great I AM]

I suppose the biggest hurdle is the thrust, with cutting the shinai could be made from anything such as carbon fibre or plastic however the thrusts in Kendo pose a problem. How did the shinai in the video hold up when doing thrusts? I was just making suggestions so that it would be easier to get people into kendo and make it cheaper for kids, later on when you're certain you can graduate to a full bogu with bamboo shinai? Kendo does kind of price itself out of the market when it comes to martial arts, you can call the chanbara guy commercial but they don't give away bogu if you know what I mean? Actually, where kids are concerned, to a certain extent, they do. Kids are very well supported in the first couple of years. Basically any dojo with provision for kids in the UK will have lender sets that kids can use before making any commitment. And if my kids sticks with kendo for a couple of years that is enough of a commitment from him for me to be happy spending hundreds of quid to keep him so.


Bogu is very expensive and most parents can't afford it. I couldn't afford to buy bogu for my son, it costs enough to keep replacing his clothes and shoes as it is and a bogu just isn't going to happen. I'm just saying take a leaf out of his book and make it cheap to get into, fencing does exactly the same as this guy and has foam weapons for kids to get them into it. The guys in the video seemed to be sparring safely with the air foam swords add some cheap plastic bogu and voila anyone can do kendo. If later on they decide they want to spar with the big boys they can invest in the proper gear and parents don't need to get a mortgage.Keeping with Kids, I can buy armour locally for kids at under 32,000JPY. Here, and for kids armour, that's not a huge investment for a year or so before the next set might become necessary, but that's here. Most bigger clubs will have a connection with an armour shop or company, or someone will have a contact, that anyone could recommend, to get a deal from for kids.


I don't understand why this idea would offend anyone if it brings more into the dojo and helps the sport/art grow?Because the suggestion is to turn what we do into some mass produced brand of garbage for the pure purpose of making it cheaper.

[b8amack]

I wasn't suggesting no armour nor that you don't practice Kendo. What I was suggesting is changing the shinai so that it more resembles the shape and feel of a katana but is safer than a bamboo shinai. Using modern materials such as the swords demonstrated in the video or perhaps plastics you could easily achieve that, the result would mean you could make bogu from cheaper materials. If people want to keep using the traditional bogu and bamboo shinai then fine but not all can afford the traditional gear.

What I'm saying is it lowers the entry level for Kendo financialy, if you tell a parent they will have to shell out £200 - 400 on bogu that the child will no doubt grow out of in 3 months 99% will dismiss Kendo as an option. I think Kendo hurts itself due to the costs, I'm not saying change Kendo forever and burn the rule book I'm saying give your everyday person and parent a cheaper option. If they like it and stick with it then maybe at a certain level you can upgrade to a proper set?

I paid a lot more for my first epee than I did for my first shinai. My first fencing jacket cost about as much as my first cheap tetron hakama + keiko gi. Shoes for fencing cost me more than going barefoot, of course. Yes, the bogu costs more, but receiving even bad tsuki hurts a lot less than a poor epee lunge to the chest. I like to think that safety has something to do with that. I can't imagine parents deciding not to put their kids in an MA or sport because of the cost of safety equipment.

I've also never seen a kid grow out of their bogu at anything approaching 3 months, sorry. Don't just pull figures from thin air.



I'm just saying that alot of the talk dismissing such ideas is counter productive to any sport or art form, all things need to evolve and change to suit their enviroment. The guy in the article did have a point about Kendo being too niche, if fencing hadn't evolved in the last 150 years we'd still be wearing a pair of wire mesh goggles and getting our faces slashed to ribbons with points de arrets being rammed up our noses!

1) Fencing is pretty damn niche. I fenced. Fencing's great fun. You can't just go down to the park and pick up a match, though.
2)Fencing changed. Evolved is a little self-congratulatory. Devolved could be as easily argued. All the flicking in foil now turns me off.
3)Kendo has made modern concessions to safety. By and large, though, shiai (point matches) are an extremely safe contact sport.

[Agricola]

Actually, where kids are concerned, to a certain extent, they do. Kids are very well supported in the first couple of years. Basically any dojo with provision for kids in the UK will have lender sets that kids can use before making any commitment. And if my kids sticks with kendo for a couple of years that is enough of a commitment from him for me to be happy spending hundreds of quid to keep him so.

Keeping with Kids, I can buy armour locally for kids at under 32,000JPY. Here, and for kids armour, that's not a huge investment for a year or so before the next set might become necessary, but that's here. Most bigger clubs will have a connection with an armour shop or company, or someone will have a contact, that anyone could recommend, to get a deal from for kids.

Because the suggestion is to turn what we do into some mass produced brand of garbage for the pure purpose of making it cheaper.

If the Dojo is providing kit then yes that's the soloution, then I suppose aslong as the Dojo can saddle the expense it's fine. I know from fencing it can be a real bummer when you don't have your own kit and have to use club gear, sometimes it's hard to find clothing that fits (my son is left handed ... Nooooo!). I don't know how it is for bogu but I assumed it would be more difficult and I have no idea how most dojos in the UK provide for it, I'd be interested to know how you guys deal with club kit and getting enough in for when you have alot of people join.

Again I didn't consider clubs linked to armourers, it happens in fencing but I had no idea how it works in Kendo.

I was interested in just making it cheaper without cheapening it. I suppose alot comes down to the dojo and how well they support newcomers and children, still it can't be cheap for the dojo and you'd have to be lucky to live near a one that's well stocked?

[Agricola]

I paid a lot more for my first epee than I did for my first shinai. My first fencing jacket cost about as much as my first cheap tetron hakama + keiko gi. Shoes for fencing cost me more than going barefoot, of course. Yes, the bogu costs more, but receiving even bad tsuki hurts a lot less than a poor epee lunge to the chest. I like to think that safety has something to do with that. I can't imagine parents deciding not to put their kids in an MA or sport because of the cost of safety equipment.

I've also never seen a kid grow out of their bogu at anything approaching 3 months, sorry. Don't just pull figures from thin air.




1) Fencing is pretty damn niche. I fenced. Fencing's great fun. You can't just go down to the park and pick up a match, though.
2)Fencing changed. Evolved is a little self-congratulatory. Devolved could be as easily argued. All the flicking in foil now turns me off.
3)Kendo has made modern concessions to safety. By and large, though, shiai (point matches) are an extremely safe contact sport.

I don't know much about Kendo so if you guys could exuse some of my errors as just ignorance, Fencing once you get into it seriously does start to cost I agree and is pretty niche but it does have things like foam swords for kids classes without (in my opinion) having cheapened the sport. I suppose I'm just reacting like most parents would when you look at the price of Bogu and a big "WTF???!!!!!" goes of in your mind. I guess fencing kind of lets you down easier since you can buy one piece at a time whereas bogu comes in a set?

[ScottUK]

Most people are lucky to live near a dojo full stop. The rest will just work itself out.

Do you plan to practice kendo?

[Missingno.]

Yes, the bogu costs more, but receiving even bad tsuki hurts a lot less than a poor epee lunge to the chest.

I agree with all points but this one. I've never seen anyone forcibly stabbed to the floor in epee. I've never seen anyone brought to the ground gasping for air from a bad epee attack. As far as thrusting goes, shinai are quite a bit more dangerous.

[MikeW]

Well the sports you mentioned are all niche sports, certainly outside of North America just as Kendo is outside of Japan/Korea. The places parents do send their kids to play is where it is the national sport Canada or U.S.A and is supported through schools/colleges/universities and goverment grants. Try getting into those sports outside of North America and you'll hit the same road block. I see no popularity for American football outside the U.S.A, Ice Hockey is very unpopular outside maybe a 5 countries in the world and lacrosse is just non existant. So really your point is moot, if you think cash is not an issue in these hard times then I envy you.

I said Kendo needs to evolve to fit the times, the price needs to come down. Having new materials that just cost the same as before won't help increase accessability, if a gi for karate cost £400 and your kid grew out of it in 3 months then Karate would be about as popular as Kendo is right now.

I read your link about Kendo, although interesting it has nothing to do with this discussion which is about a sport/martial art that's pricing itself out of the market right now and during an economic depression. I was interested in discussing some other approaches but it seems few are interested in that and for some reason seem to show an irrational fear of discussing it like adults.

People that want to do kendo will overcome the initial financial hardship if they want to do it bad enough. Purchase used equipment for the first set and save a lot of money. I bought my daughters ( and my own) first bogu sets used at about 70 per set. For people that are very poor they can come and practice kihon without bogu until they are able to purchase (and are ready) for bogu. I don't see a need to popularize kendo by sacrificing some of the aspects that make it unique.

[Josh Reyer]

I'm not sure if I understand you. Sure I understand the goal of kendo is not point scoring (outside of shiai), and certainly one's equipment will effect how one practices. Could you expand on your thoughts a bit further?
Imagine doing a regular kendo practice without bogu and using fukuro-shinai. It would be painful and dangerous. Strikes to the head would have to be avoided. Striking while avoiding the opponent's shinai would increase in importance, and while that's an important part of kenjutsu, in a free practice situation that can lead to "playing tag". That is not the goal of kendo: the goal of kendo is to make a true, full cut (or strike, if you will) regardless of what the opponent does, even if it means you'll get struck somewhere a half-second later. Painful, negative feedback from being repeatedly hit about the head, shoulders, and arms without bogu, as well as concern for the health of oneself and one's partner, will hinder that training. So, bogu. It allows free uchikomi. Full strikes to the head, arms, and body. It opens up the use of tsuki to the throat. But a fukuro-shinai is too weak to repeatedly bang against bogu. The leather will quickly wear down, and slats will break easier. Hence, the sturdier modern* kendo shinai -- no fukuro, and the slats are made of thick individual segments of bamboo fit together.

With simpler, lighter bogu, you can have free practice with fukuro-shinai. Maniwa Nen-ryu does it for one, as has Yagyu Shinkage-ryu historically. (Incidentally there's the story of the 5th soke, Yagyu Renya, who would come home so covered with bruises and welts from his childhood free practice sessions that the next day he couldn't even tie his obi.) However, you can't get the full vigor and abandon that you get with a typical modern kendo practice. Particularly when you consider that in koryu you would ideally be practicing almost always as teacher and student, senior and junior, allowing for at least one person with a measure of control. With the modern kendo bogu and shinai, you can have (relative) beginners practice together.

(*Of course, though I say "modern", kendo equipment in essentially its current form dates back to the end of the Edo period.)

[b8amack]

I agree with all points but this one. I've never seen anyone forcibly stabbed to the floor in epee. I've never seen anyone brought to the ground gasping for air from a bad epee attack. As far as thrusting goes, shinai are quite a bit more dangerous.

Really? I've never seen anyone gasping for air, but stabbed to the floor? Yeah. I have. And I totally disagree. The epee is a solid metal bar, thin or not, with a lot less give than a shinai has. Even doing jodan, when getting tsuki'd in the side of the neck, armpit, chest... everywhere BUT the do-mune or tsuki-dare, it felt like, and getting some huge bruises, I would remember having worse from epee.

[Neil Gendzwill]

if a gi for karate cost £400 and your kid grew out of it in 3 months then Karate would be about as popular as Kendo is right now.Local karate/TKD schools are charging $100/month for kids these days. We charge $90 for the 8 month season. So in one year, you can pay for two sets of kids' bogu from the savings. You have to look at the whole cost.

As far as new materials and tech go - Hasegawa has been trying to replicate bamboo shinai for over 20 years now and the results are still a big fat fail. Nobody who understands kendo wants to see it scored electronically. Kendo is what it is. If you want to try to push something else, goferitdude.

[Missingno.]

Really? I've never seen anyone gasping for air, but stabbed to the floor? Yeah. I have. And I totally disagree. The epee is a solid metal bar, thin or not, with a lot less give than a shinai has. Even doing jodan, when getting tsuki'd in the side of the neck, armpit, chest... everywhere BUT the do-mune or tsuki-dare, it felt like, and getting some huge bruises, I would remember having worse from epee.

I don't know what kind of epee you're using, but the kind I fence with bend quite a bit. They have much more give than a shinai when thrusting, probably because they're made for thrusting. I can easily bend an epee with my hands, can't really say the same for a shinai. That must have been some kind of epic fleche that ended with a broken blade and a bell guard punch if it had enough force to knock down a grown man.

[ShinKenshi]

I don't know much about Kendo so if you guys could exuse some of my errors as just ignorance, Fencing once you get into it seriously does start to cost I agree and is pretty niche but it does have things like foam swords for kids classes without (in my opinion) having cheapened the sport. I suppose I'm just reacting like most parents would when you look at the price of Bogu and a big "WTF???!!!!!" goes of in your mind. I guess fencing kind of lets you down easier since you can buy one piece at a time whereas bogu comes in a set?If we were dealing with only a sport then there is less of an impact in terms of the "cheapening" factor but we're talking about kendo, a martial art that has deep ties with tradition. Would you envision traditional Japanese tea ceremony using an electric kettle, a plastic ladle, and a recyclable paper cup? Following your original train of thought, you would find nothing wrong with that because it is keeping up with modern society and wouldn't cheapen it. Yes, this example is comparing apples to oranges but it get's the point across.

The reason why I pointed you towards the Concept of Kendo was because I wanted you to try to understand more where we as kendo practitioners come from, why we are so adamant about maintaining tradition, and why using foam swords is a bad idea. We aren't focused on who scores first during a tournament but rather with who defeats their opponent and then strikes with proper form and technique. Many kendo practitioners would agree they'd rather be defeated beautifully by maintaining proper technique than win looking like a human pretzel trying to hit whatever may be open.

If a parent were to look at the total cost of fencing equipment, you'd get the same sticker shock as you have when looking at bogu prices. If a parent were shown how much each individual piece of bogu would cost then you would probably get that same easy let down you have described. And as a side note, yes you can get each piece individually but that's mostly for higher end pieces where you want to shell out more money for better protection of more critical areas (commonly the head and forearms since cheaper stuff tends to protect your torso and hips just as well).

[D'Artagnan]

To expand on Neils point, the cost for kids really isn't as high as you would imagine...

Yes there is an initial outlay to buy the armour, but let's take the typical example of a child starting out in Kendo -

-Starts at 6 yrs old, does 1 year of footwork and un-armoured cutting practice.
-Starts wearing Bogu at 7, parents buy them their first Bogu. This costs less than 35,000 JPY and will last them until they are 12 or 13.
- They outgrow the previous Bogu and buy a new one, price dependant on budget, however at this stage it is possible to buy a Bogu that will last them into adulthood.

This is the EXACT route that my wife and both her brothers went though, infact my wife is still using the same Bogu she received when she was 13, she is now 31...

So for your first outlay of 35,000 JPY, if spent wisely will last for 5 or 6 years, so 5833 JPY per year... that's about 45 quid in real money (or the same as a PS3 game)- if you factor in shinai and possible other equipment (hakama, Dogi etc.) you are still looking at less than 120 quid a year... Practising is generally free for kids so that's about all...

You might say that the kid could quit after a 2 weeks of wearing Bogu, and then it is a waste of money, but thing is 99 out 100 kids doing Kendo simply do not have the option to quit.

Thus the main reason less kids are taking up Kendo than they were, is not really because the equipment costs money, more it is because it's hard, it stinks and it basically isn't 'cool'...

Therefore, there is no reason whatsoever for the All Japan Kendo Federation to look to sanction dramatic alteration to the rules and/or equipment - bearing in mind they will swiftly ban any piece of equipment if it is not considered 'in keeping' with tradition (such as different coloured Mengane etc.).

'Why?' you may ask, simple, because that is how it is, that is the Japanese way - Kendo is indeed Japanese, it is a particularly traditional Japanese Budo, and is run by the Japanese governing body. Often it does not conform to the general western mindset - rather the western mindset must conform to it, that is what makes it what it is.

Naturally the above refers to how things are in Japan, but then outside of Japan there are (comparatively) an EXTREMELY small number of kids doing Kendo, therefore there is even less reason for the AJKF to addressing an issue which does not affect 99.9% of junior Kendoka...

Also, in terms of countries outside of Japan, particularly the UK, cost is definitely not the main reason why there aren't more kids doing Kendo. I would suggest it is more related to -

-The paperwork/difficulties involved in having a club which is legally ALLOWED to accept children.
-If they actually ARE able to open a club which can take kids, then Instructors struggle to effectively teach Kendo to them, because the kids are generally a bit soft, and you get in trouble if you are 'too hard' on them or you make them do something they don't want to, or get's them out of breath. The effect of this being that the kid doesn't improve and then gets bored, tells parents they want to quit because Kendo is boring/hurts/whatever, which then leads to:
-Parents are kind to their kids, and let them quit when they want to. This is doubled by the fact that parents, unless they do Kendo themselves, tend not to 'get involved' in the activity with the child. Rather they drop them off, enjoy the time while they are at extended daycare, and then pick them up, possibly asking them 'if they had a good time'. Rather than taking an active interest in the child's progression, or lack of it... thus when the kid wants to bail out, the parent says 'oh OK'...

Kendo is a hard activity, both physically and more importantly emotionally, particularly for children. Most parents don't want to put their kids through it when they find out that is what it involves...

Kids quit stuff they don't get good at, and getting good at Kendo is for the most part, not fun...

Back to the cost-thing...I would be willing to bet that there are FAR more kids involved in sports that cost FAR more than Kendo (such as Horse-riding, Go-karting, Golf, Fishing...),and yes I realise that Kendo is a niche sport, but then so is let's say Kayak'ing (if that is the right word...), now don't get me wrong, I know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about Kayak'ing, so I don't know if they can make it cheaper or not, or what the effects of that would be, but I am pretty confident in thinking that it is probably both more expensive AND more popular with both adults and kids than Kendo is - I am sure it is growing faster too...

Lastly, the cheapest equipment is currently made in the cheapest possible way. There are no 'super materials' which are super cheap AND super durable - at least none which can be applied to the Kendo Bogu, or the construction of the shinai. Both the Bogu and the Shinai are designed the way they are because that is what is required for the practice of Kendo. When considering this it is important to note that the rules of Kendo practice and competition, particularly in relation to what justifies a 'valid' strike are EXTREMELY strict and complicated, and the design/construction of the equipment are actually closely linked to those rules. So changing the equipment would mean changing the rules, and if you change both the equipment and the rules, do you not then end up with a different activity?

As someone already mentioned about Football and Rugby, if you take a Rugby ball and change the shape, and then tell the players they can't pick it up, then you end up with a football match... or if you take a Shinai and change it to nerf-stick, remove the use of Bogu and change the rules accordingly, then you have Spochan... Not that there is anything wrong with Spochan, but it's simply not the same activity as Kendo...

[JSchmidt]

Well the sports you mentioned are all niche sports, certainly outside of North America just as Kendo is outside of Japan/Korea.


Hockey a niche sport? Compared to what?
Just because the UK is crap at it, hardly makes it a 'niche' sport.

[krys]

As you can see in the below video they don't deform like the sports chanabara ones. How well have yours held up?
pvc tubes + insulation + tape.
More sturdy than chanbara ones so it was possible to utilize some techniques. However after some use two of them broke. I had some ideas on how to prevent that but got bored with the chanbara stuff.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, kendo is usually way cheaper than going to the movies on a regular basis, or pretty much any other martial art I've done. I pay $10 a month for both kendo and naginatado, as opposed to what I'm currently paying for a decent boxing gym and muay that at about $50 and $80 a month. Only "expensive" part about kendo is the bogu, and that's a purchase you'll rarely ever have to make after that.

[hl1978]

doubtfull, kendo is a much higher level art, this is a discussion that happens all the time, in karate or TKD its possible to show up and after a month of practice by virtue of being faster and stronger win tournaments. That will never be the case in kendo, there is a lot of patience involved until you get 'good' at it, and because of this is will always be less popular than arts that have competitions that have devolved into point sparring.


What evidence do you have to support the opinion that kendo is a higher level art?

[ender84567]

its not my opinion but that of several TKD blackbelts that practice kendo.

[Agricola]

To expand on Neils point, the cost for kids really isn't as high as you would imagine...

Yes there is an initial outlay to buy the armour, but let's take the typical example of a child starting out in Kendo -

-Starts at 6 yrs old, does 1 year of footwork and un-armoured cutting practice.
-Starts wearing Bogu at 7, parents buy them their first Bogu. This costs less than 35,000 JPY and will last them until they are 12 or 13.
- They outgrow the previous Bogu and buy a new one, price dependant on budget, however at this stage it is possible to buy a Bogu that will last them into adulthood.



OK I didn't realize that bogu can be grown into at that rate, I just assumed it would be replaced like other clothing would. I think people (like myself) need to be informed about something like that, I assumed that if I purchased one for say my son (12) he'd out grow it within 6 months. Well I stand corrected, I guess it's as much ignorance that holds people back than anything?

To the other poster I was interested in doing either Kendo or fencing with my son, there was no dojo close by but a few fencing schools so we did fencing. That's not to say that something like Kendo doesn't interest me in fact all sword arts do, I was just making assumptions on the cost of Kendo which I've been corrected on.

[Cutie_honey]

its not my opinion but that of several TKD blackbelts that practice kendo.

if its not your opinion, you might want to make that clear in your posts.
It sure sounded like your opinion when you wrote this



.
doubtfull, kendo is a much higher level art, this is a discussion that happens all the time, in karate or TKD its possible to show up and after a month of practice by virtue of being faster and stronger win tournaments. That will never be the case in kendo, there is a lot of patience involved until you get 'good' at it, and because of this is will always be less popular than arts that have competitions that have devolved into point sparring.

[Anonymous]

I was just making assumptions on the cost of Kendo




This is why people usually are usually advised to do a little research before making any comments.

[Shinsengumi77]

What evidence do you have to support the opinion that kendo is a higher level art?

No idea if this is helpful here or not, but I once heard that equivalency of armed martial arts to unarmed martial arts is skewed a bit. Something like, to be on equal grounds, an unarmed martial artist should be (I think) three ranks higher in technical ability than an armed martial artist.

I can't remember where I heard it or if it even means much, but if this is true than the original statement would have some merit.

[Charles Lockhar]

So for your first outlay of 35,000 JPY, if spent wisely will last for 5 or 6 years, so 5833 JPY per year... that's about 45 quid in real money (or the same as a PS3 game)- if you factor in shinai and possible other equipment (hakama, Dogi etc.) you are still looking at less than 120 quid a year... Practising is generally free for kids so that's about all...

You know, that's a key point, in my opinion. The folks I've talked to who say that kendo is too expensive to get into are the same ones who could easily buy two kits or more for the amount of money they have invested in their gaming systems (PS3, Wii, games, &c.). The only people you're really helping out by making cheap bogu are those who don't stick around, because it'll cheaper to get in and then easier to leave. Folks with a serious interest will want better gear that'll last them long term.

Or I could be very wrong...

-Charles

[EndureForte]

I was just making assumptions on the cost of Kendo which I've been corrected on.

The truth is that in kendo--and most martial arts in general--you usually get what you pay for. Bogu is expensive sometimes, yes. Classes and dues are an unfortunate side of most any club/dojo these days. Pay to play is the name of the game. Why?

The simple truth is that the gear for kendo that you buy is made to protect you from harm. If you pay for good bogu, you will be well protected. If you cheap out (and I say this from the experiences of a few people in the club here in town), practice will really hurt.

And the fees? I don't know of any Sensei in our region here that make any kind of a living teaching kendo. Dues go to the establishment, or to pay utilities. By being present for practice, you are taking part of light, temperature, air, and the time of the sensei/ sempai who could be doing other stuff. So essentially, you're just covering your end.

I'm not trying to talk down to you at all, and genuinely hope that you and your son begin practice (which I'm sure everyone else here wants as well). Consider the money part of things just keeping accounts balanced though, whatever you decide to do.

[verissimus]

This is why people usually are usually advised to do a little research before making any comments.

I thought that's why we have KW forums... :glasses:

[b8amack]

I don't know what kind of epee you're using, but the kind I fence with bend quite a bit. They have much more give than a shinai when thrusting, probably because they're made for thrusting. I can easily bend an epee with my hands, can't really say the same for a shinai. That must have been some kind of epic fleche that ended with a broken blade and a bell guard punch if it had enough force to knock down a grown man.

Ah, you mean the impact of the blow. No, I meant crumpling from pain. Thing's half a shiv, sometimes. And no, not a fleche. Lunge from what we would call chika maai. Practice accidents where someone was (sure, foolishly) not wearing a cup. Never seen someone take an epee lunge square to the throat, and I hope never to. I get the feeling you'd see your gasping for air in that situation.

[Anonymous]

I thought that's why we have KW forums... :glasses:


Or google even.

[The great I AM]

If the Dojo is providing kit then yes that's the soloution, then I suppose aslong as the Dojo can saddle the expense it's fine. I know from fencing it can be a real bummer when you don't have your own kit and have to use club gear, sometimes it's hard to find clothing that fits (my son is left handed ... Nooooo!). I don't know how it is for bogu but I assumed it would be more difficult and I have no idea how most dojos in the UK provide for it, I'd be interested to know how you guys deal with club kit and getting enough in for when you have alot of people join.

Again I didn't consider clubs linked to armourers, it happens in fencing but I had no idea how it works in Kendo.

I was interested in just making it cheaper without cheapening it. I suppose alot comes down to the dojo and how well they support newcomers and children, still it can't be cheap for the dojo and you'd have to be lucky to live near a one that's well stocked?You'd be surprised just how well dojo can get by these days. I helpde start a uni club that within about 3 years was over flowwing with surplus armour, because of crafty work with donations and begging. We've learnt to survive extremely well as a breed without complaining about lack of funds (that same uni club had to survive it's first year from literally zero. The uni paid for nothing, and the hard work of the people involved at the time kept it afloat).

Also, without wishing to come across as finger pointing, forms of the word "assume" feature too much in your posts for your opinion to carry enough weight to be taken seriously, sorry.

[hl1978]

No idea if this is helpful here or not, but I once heard that equivalency of armed martial arts to unarmed martial arts is skewed a bit. Something like, to be on equal grounds, an unarmed martial artist should be (I think) three ranks higher in technical ability than an armed martial artist.

I can't remember where I heard it or if it even means much, but if this is true than the original statement would have some merit.

Are you referring to a fight between an armed martial artist versus unarmed? Way too many variables there. If it is in terms of skill in ones own art, its really hard to make a comparason. Its my experience that it takes longer to grade in most non-weapons arts than weapons arts even initially since most empty hand arts require you to go through each kyu grade and tend to have longer time in grade requrements. For example, it is really difficult to compare a shodan in kendo versus a judo shodan in terms of skill level considering how quickly you can become a shodan in kendo or even be awarded godan in kendo even if you are getting extra points in judo (http://shufujudo.com/Portals/0/Documents/2010ShufuSeniorPromotionalRequirements20090831.pdf ).

Now as wacky as it sounds, you are basically working on the same thing in judo, kendo, karate etc even if the waza is different and I am not talking about personal development, more along the lines of "how do I manipulate the other persons center to unbalance them and control their movements". Otherwise there would not be so much common terminology between arts. Likewise in grappling arts, you have to think several moves ahead of your opponent like in a chess game, even bluebelts in BJJ (1-3 years experience) are thinking 2-3 moves ahead of their opponents and I am not sure if someone is thinking that many moves ahead that early in kendo either, nor if they even would be since we usually dont have chains of waza to that degree in a single exchange.

[Missingno.]

Ah, you mean the impact of the blow. No, I meant crumpling from pain. Thing's half a shiv, sometimes. And no, not a fleche. Lunge from what we would call chika maai. Practice accidents where someone was (sure, foolishly) not wearing a cup. Never seen someone take an epee lunge square to the throat, and I hope never to. I get the feeling you'd see your gasping for air in that situation.

Oh, a groin shot. I stand corrected. I didn't think about that.

It is much more difficult to get past the neck protector of a fencing mask than a tsuki-dare.

[Maro]

I've actually done Chanbara a couple of times. My old instructor once trained with Tanabe Sensei.

It was a good laugh to muck around with the kit for half an hour but that was it. The inability to parry/block makes them useless in context.

Fun for playing with but nothing compared to Iai (I don't say Kendo as I don't practice it - time pressures rather than monetary sadly)

[Agricola]

Also, without wishing to come across as finger pointing, forms of the word "assume" feature too much in your posts for your opinion to carry enough weight to be taken seriously, sorry.

You're right, I'm interested in discussing it here so that I can test those assumptions. I don't take any offence to being corrected, I guess when it comes to spending that kind of money I just assume the worst and then if I'm corrected it it's a happy suprise?

Atleast now I know that if a dojo started up close to me I could and my son could afford it, thankyou.

[ScottUK]

You have one close to you. Some good teachers there too. Why don't you attend it?

[Maro]

You have one close to you. Some good teachers there too. Why don't you attend it?

I can't second this enough.

Just do it (as they say)

[Bailemor]

You're right, I'm interested in discussing it here so that I can test those assumptions. I don't take any offence to being corrected, I guess when it comes to spending that kind of money I just assume the worst and then if I'm corrected it it's a happy suprise?

Atleast now I know that if a dojo started up close to me I could and my son could afford it, thankyou.


If you had done a google search you would have come up with the Portsmouth Kendo Club (http://www.membership.kendo.org.uk/html/dojo_details.php?dojo1=00185) or (http://www.portsmouthkendo.com/) i did a search and found this within less than a minute, you could not have looked hard enough.

[ScottUK]

I have suggested this a couple of times (with no reply). I think Mr Agricola is a fantasist...

[Maro]

Indeed, the name gives it away

[ScottUK]

Heh, had to Google that...

[Maro]

Old school indeed!

[Agricola]

I have suggested this a couple of times (with no reply). I think Mr Agricola is a fantasist...


Well I'm sorry if I didn't see your question before or was just too lazy to answer, but as I said there is no Kendo club in a convenient travelling distance and since I've been doing fencing for over a year now I'm pretty certain I couldn't manage doing both. I need everything I've got just to concentrate on fencing right now.

I just looked it up since you mentioned there was and it seems that one is very close, perhaps I didn't see it before or perhaps they've moved to that location within the last year? I may have actually seen it before but since the fencing club was half the distance I probably forgot about it. Perhaps I'll visit sometime and have a nose about and ask a few questions, I think it'd be interesting to talk to them and watch what goes on.

As for my name I've always used it for the internet, me a fantasist? Absoloutley! If I were to accept reality I'd go crazy!

[ScottUK]

They've been there for ages.

Go attend - or don't. If you do, stay and chat awhile on the forums. We like budoka here.