Shinai's not allowed in College dorms, due to weapon policy??

[bloodstained]

Hey everyone,

This is the kendo club prez at UMBC, our club just started this semester so everyone's pretty new to everything haha. But like the topic says, recently we've been having an small issue with students being allowed to have shinai's in their dorms. It seems to be just 1 or 2 RA's that are quite anal about policy and regulations.

Now it seems that they're saying the shinai's are weapons and thus are prohibited in dorms. However reading over the housing policies it states:


Weapons of all types are prohibited. This includes any potentially dangerous object or substance including, but not limited to:

* any firearm (including any weapon or instrument from which a shot, projectile, or other object may be discharged by force, whether operable or inoperable, loaded or unloaded);
* any deadly weapon, defined as any instrument, item, or material readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury;....

The rest is just stuff about guns, bombs, etc..

But yeah, this does not seem to qualify the shinai to be categorized in the weapon's policy. And just to double check, weapons, mean something used to injure, defeat, or destroy. While it can be argued that shinai's are used to defeat opponents, luckily in our current case, the Kendo club focuses on only training and disciplining through rigorous motions, not attacks. (school prohibits clubs to do combat, until recognized as sports club which we have to wait 1 year, blah blah, policy/regulations)

So going back to the policy, it should be logical to infer that shinai's are acceptable. If not, its easy to extend on the policy and argue why other sports equipment such as tennis rackets, lacrosse sticks, etc... aren't prohibited.


So can I get some feedback on my reasoning? I want to make sure its sound just in case I have to argue my point of view.

Also, if anyone else has had this issue, please feel free to comment, Id like to get as much info as possible. Doing a storage at this point is unlikely since the majority of storage is approved only for sports clubs which we are not. We're a hobbies club...(long story)

Now it seems that keeping the shinai wrapped has worked so far, I think their might be something about this, keeping things wrapped/concealed? But I haven't been able to find anything about that.


Anyways, all feedback, etc... is greatly appreciated!

[verissimus]

Do they allow fencing gear? If so, there's your case.

Is there anything specific in the rules regarding uncovered shinai? Is it possible to convince the RA that the shinai will always be in the shinai bag when in the dorm?

[Reiver]

Shinai were developed so as NOT to cause death or serious injury, so people could learn swordsmanship without getting sliced. In and of itself a shinai is an item of safety equipment.

[dillon]

Overzealous bureaucrats are overzealous.

Remember two things about bureaucrats: they hate a fight but they hate being embarrassed more.

As a temporary measure perhaps the members not having problems can hold the shinais of members who are having problem while you get this sorted out. I would prepare a presentation showing what kendo is and what it isn't with explanation of the equipment and the arguments others have suggested on this thread. With this, go have a chat with the problem RAs. Speak to them individually so that they have no idea how many other RAs think like they do so they get the impression they are really a small minority or a unique case (tell them most other RAs aren't having a problem with shinai). If this doesn't appeal to their logic then perhaps it shows you won't be pushed over and they better just give up.

If this doesn't solve the problem then escalate and get some people on your side. Get the support of some student senators, a letter from your regional federation president explaining how shinai pose no significant danger to anyone (certainly less than baseball bats or hockey sticks) and perhaps a sympathetic administrator (student activities secretary for example). Have them support your case with letters or even coming along to discussions. This shows the RAs that you have bigger (and official) guns/sword than they do.

Be careful though in escalating that it doesn't escalate against you. If it's just a small problem with 1 or 2 RAs you don't want it to become a policy change that then gets shinai b& from all dorms. It might in fact be better to just stay under the radar on this one depending on attitudes at your uni. That's something you and your club has to judge and perhaps a senior student senator or sympathetic administrator with more political experience can help you decide.

In all cases don't get personal with the RAs. As I said, bureaucrats hate being embarrassed, even more than fighting. Never say "YOU are unreasonable" but impersonalize it and say "this interpretation is unreasonable and you don't seem to be an unreasonable person". Appeal to their sense of mercy and make them think it was really their idea. Remember the goal is to get your equipment into the dorms and not to bring down RAs. If they think it's personal they will go get their own big guns and they might be in a position to get bigger ones than you.

[FastKendo]

Overzealous bureaucrats are overzealous.

Remember two things about bureaucrats: they hate a fight but they hate being embarrassed more.

As a temporary measure perhaps the members not having problems can hold the shinais of members who are having problem while you get this sorted out. I would prepare a presentation showing what kendo is and what it isn't with explanation of the equipment and the arguments others have suggested on this thread. With this, go have a chat with the problem RAs. Speak to them individually so that they have no idea how many other RAs think like they do so they get the impression they are really a small minority or a unique case (tell them most other RAs aren't having a problem with shinai). If this doesn't appeal to their logic then perhaps it shows you won't be pushed over and they better just give up.

If this doesn't solve the problem then escalate and get some people on your side. Get the support of some student senators, a letter from your regional federation president explaining how shinai pose no significant danger to anyone (certainly less than baseball bats or hockey sticks) and perhaps a sympathetic administrator (student activities secretary for example). Have them support your case with letters or even coming along to discussions. This shows the RAs that you have bigger (and official) guns/sword than they do.

Be careful though in escalating that it doesn't escalate against you. If it's just a small problem with 1 or 2 RAs you don't want it to become a policy change that then gets shinai b& from all dorms. It might in fact be better to just stay under the radar on this one depending on attitudes at your uni. That's something you and your club has to judge and perhaps a senior student senator or sympathetic administrator with more political experience can help you decide.

In all cases don't get personal with the RAs. As I said, bureaucrats hate being embarrassed, even more than fighting. Never say "YOU are unreasonable" but impersonalize it and say "this interpretation is unreasonable and you don't seem to be an unreasonable person". Appeal to their sense of mercy and make them think it was really their idea. Remember the goal is to get your equipment into the dorms and not to bring down RAs. If they think it's personal they will go get their own big guns and they might be in a position to get bigger ones than you.

Can't agree more. Peoples who design the regulation (or everybody who has "a position") tends to have a special ego. Just be careful for not to disturb it and focus to your goal.

a baseball bat, or even a pen, is more deadly than a properly maintained shinai.

[MikeW]

Appeal your case to the Dean of student services or resident halls if your campus has one. Of course be polite but factual, stress (as mentioned above) that shinai (and bokuto) are not weapons in a similar vein as fencing equipment, baseball bats and hockey sticks are not weapons. If the club is an officially sanctioned student org or club you should not have any problem. Every campus and administration are different. We have had no problem with this at University of North Carolina although an occasional student will ask about the rules. I always tell people it is better (both for the shinai and the comfort of people around them) to carry their shinai and bokuto in a bag.

[rfoxmich]

This sort of thing can often be a misunderstanding as well. The question I always start with is "What is the concern" The rest goes on from there. I remember a case where we were trying to organize a summer camp at MSU and were initially told that we would not be able to use the building we wanted to use because of the nature of kendo.

When I asked what the concern was I was told that the floors had been recently re-finished and they didn't want that finish destroyed by all of the banging of stick on the floor we would normally do.

I responded by simply sending a Youtube video of kendo and assuring them we would not be intentionally banging our 'sticks' on the floor. Problem solved. Summer camp held. Good time had by all.

In this case, ask what the concern is and if the concern can be adequately addressed, whether these pieces of 'sports equipment' (as I like to call them) can be stored in the dorm. Work with these guys, not against them. You don't want them looking for excuses to pound on your membership. You want them to see how reasonable you are and how accommodating you are... maybe you'll agree that the shinai will be locked in a storage closet and taken out only by students on their way to practice (the concern might be that in a room they could be taken by anybody visiting the room and used to cause damage and injury to others). Maybe you'll agree that shinai will be stored out of sight and in their bags ..if so be sure your members understand and will stick to whatever agreement you come to.

You will tend to gain points with the RAs and the administration if you take this approach, rather than going over the RA's heads unless there's a clear impasse you can't resolve. Even if you do have to go over their heads... apologize about it.. let them know that you wish you had not had to do that but that you were not certain their decisions were correct and that you were just looking after the needs of your club and your membership.

[UnimportantHero]

Had this problem once upon a merry old time keeping Wushu weapons at USC and all I can say is... Good luck. Granted, ours were actually metal, but still. Your best bet might actually be to request a locker someplace on campus, ideally near to where your club practices, where the club can keep the shinai and so forth locked up and safe.

[Curtis]

Get a field hockey stick bag and put them in there with a stick and the shinai in a bag if all else fails.

[IronWarrior]

Or just don't tell them you have them?

I honestly don't think they check your bedrooms do they? lol

[Anonymous]

Honestly, just don't display the damn things openly to begin with. I guarantee that people are keeping things that are a hell of a lot more dangerous than shinai in their dorm rooms.

[MikeW]

Ron (rfoxmich) has the best first step advice. Make an appointment or go to talk to the RA's that are complaining and see if you can come to an understanding. If not then escalate higher up the administrative chain as I suggested in my earlier post.

[b8amack]

The real problem sounds like your club's classification as a hobby and not a sports club. If you protest, eventually it'll come out that your club does combat, and by your uni rules, that's illegal for non-sports clubs. Assuming I read your first post correctly. Sports clubs also get storage space. You really need to protest your classification as a hobby club, to my thinking.

[Kendoka]

If a "weapon" is defined somewhere, is the shinai included? If not, good - that's sorted.
Keep the shinai in a bag (its better for it anyway). The bag is similar to bags for golf and hockey sticks, fishing rods, pool cues etc.
A shinai is less deadly than a baseball bat or golf stick used for bad things.
Tell them that kendo is sport.
I tell airline people that the things in the bag are "bamboo sticks used for Japanese fencing". They then usually say something about gardens, smile and let me through.

[bloodstained]

Being a typical college student, the stress has been ever increasing. I just want to thank you all for the great advices given. Being able to find some guidance has helped ease the burden a lot. Thanks especially to dillon and rfoxmich.

It seems that the issue with shinai's haven't escalated since I haven't heard any new news yet. My first step will be what you all told me, I'll go talk directly to the RA's that have concerns and see if I can't sort out the misunderstanding.

Ironically, the RA's were having most trouble with seems to have been a ex kenjutsu practitioner.

Also, another RA that stopped and questioned us seemed to have the stereotypical perspective that having something out of the ordinary would automatically be considered "use for violence."

I don't mean to whine, but like I said, I've been pretty stressed out lately, so Ill probably talk to the RA's within this week. Ill prepare and do as much homework as possible for a small presentation with the RA's.

Ill keep in touch!

[bloodstained]

Hey everyone,

I have an update to our situation.
So it looks like the issue with shinai's has grown over the last couple days.
One of my friends happens to be a desk staff at the dorm, he told me that the staff
had a meeting to discuss general things and the shinai issue came up.

The way that my friend explained it, sounds like the RA's are quite ignorant and will
not be giving in. The 'this is what the rules say, if you don't like it, go to talk to this person' or 'ill take your proposal into consideration' kinda person.

I'll talk to my head instructor at my dojo and try to address the specific concern the RA's have. (It sounds like they think the shinai is an actual sword) However to actually try to resolve the issue, I'm thinking of going to talk to the campus chief of police and get a letter from him then talking to the judicial board regarding the issue.

Ill get back to you as things progress

[dillon]

Oh dear. So they're organized and talk to each other. Did something instigate them or did the issue come up on its own?

Have they seen an actual shinai? Maybe show them one along side a baseball bat. Show them some armor too so they can see that actually if a shinai were all that much of a threat even the armor wouldn't be much help (can't safely strike anyone in armor with a bat). Invite them to watch a practice.

A shinai isn't exactly nunchuku, tonfa or even a staff. Perhaps as a bargaining chip you can offer that all shinai when outside of the dojo will remain in locked bags (I'm sure some shinai bags are lockable). It increases costs but if that's acceptable it could settle the issue.

Anyway, sounds like they've taken the "rules are rules, we don't make them" attitude. They're covering their rear so they have to be convince that there's nothing to cover against. Based on what you've said though, I have a feeling that they won't be happy until someone higher up officially declare that shinai are ok so they don't have to worry about getting in trouble.

Unfortunately, this kind of bureaucratic defensiveness is especially prevalent in the US (and increasingly so in the UK as well). There may also be a mob rule mentality about these things as people responsible for enforcement may feel that they're safer banning something questionable (in their eyes) to the dismay of a few than risk an incident and get bad press for the many.

If you can get campus police to give their blessing then I should think this ought to satisfy the RAs . Who else is in a better position to declare what is and is not a weapon than officers of the law (other than the courts and lawmakers... yeah right maybe).

You could also poke holes in their logic (i.e. baseball bats could also be weapons). But before going down that route think whether they're likely to then simply declare baseball bats also illegal in which case you'll have a bunch of people who will hate you.

[hugo]

Hey everyone,

Anyways, all feedback, etc... is greatly appreciated!

If they also people to have baseball bats, there's another argument. A baseball bat can, and has on numerous occasions, caused more harm than a shinai or even a bokuto.

These sorts of rules tend to get implemented because at least one foolish person decided to make a YouTube video using a shinai for something potentially dangerous.
The trick is to convince people that the aforementioned sort of nut has nothing to do with Kendo.

[tagonagy]

UMBC? University of Maryland Baltimore Campus? May be what happened at Johns Hopkins last year has something to do with the RA's fear of Shinai.
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-09-16/news/0909150076_1_samurai-sword-samurai-weapon-pontolillo

[Theodore]

Take them apart when not in use. Then the staves become gardening supplies. ;-)

[SanguineKendoka]

My student hall of residence didn't allow televisions, toasters, mini-fridges, smoking, fairy lights, desk lamps, alcohol or drugs.

Didn't stop us though. The place was full of televisions, toasters, mini-fridges, smokers, fairy lights, desk lamps, alcohol and drugs.

[E-ronin]

I agree with one of the prior posts as a club respectfully bring the subject to the Dean of Students he/she will generally be a lot more open minded if Kendo is described for its long standing tradition and that every Ivy league school has great Kendo clubs. If it is decided that you are not allowed to bring your shinais into the dorms maybe there could be a compromise and a storage locker or space in a equipment room could be used for storage.

[Toshiro Mifune]

I also agree with brining it to the attention to the Dean of Students. Most likely and it is not too uncommon you have some idiot that hit people with shinai. Be it a crazy anime Otaku or Samurai wannabe who bought a shinai from somewhere. They didn't ban shinai but I remember in college we had some freshmen tellling people he was in the kendo club and he would hit people with his shinai. Needless to say I had a brief conversation with him and he stopped. He didn't start kendo and might have still hit a couple people but at least I didn't hear anymore about the crazy freshmen from the kendo club hitting people with his shinai. Goodluck with your case especially if you start practicing iaido and they won't let you bring your iaito in the dorm.

[TimothyO]

http://www.umbc.edu/studentlife/orgs/fencing/

UMBC has a fencing program...using metal weapons. Find out how they store their wePons (and they do call them weapons) and propose the same.

If they still refuse ask the administration's staff responsible for diversity why European fencing weapons are allowed but Japanese fencing weapons are prohibited...perhaps via a lawyers letterhead.

[dillon]

I think the tendency to seek or to threaten to seek redress through legal recourse is the root of the problem to begin with. While it may work in the short term (fight fire with fire), in the long run it contributes further to our contemporary defensive litigious culture (not that a few thousand American kendoka collectively deciding to forgo litigation is going to change the general American culture).

Also it may have the effect that they decide to ban fencing... which as I said in an earlier post, won't get you any more friends. I still think it far better to try to educate the authorities as to what kendo is and is not, pointing out that shinai are certainly less useful for harming someone than many mainstream sports equipment.

[TimothyO]

I agree with you regarding the relative lethality of kendo and other sports equipment. My sons would be expelled for wearing their bogu to show and tell but can wield a baseball bat during recess. Go figure.

As for whether or not a society is excessively litigious, that issue is irrelevant to these students and such concerns are very easy to express...until one needs a lawyer to represent his or her own interests! But all of that talk is jumping the gun...errr...shinai. The students deserve equal access to university grounds under the same terms and conditions of their European fencing classmates.

[Electronegative]

*SIGH*

Final update
I'm the Vice-president of UMBC Kendo club.
After being ignored by the University for a whole year, today we met with the person who is suppose to be final decision maker,
His response "NO"
Although Kendo doesn't exactly come to mind when you think of college sport nor many people are familiar with it, his explanations where totally... How shall I put this...Ignorant
He said that although there have been no historical incidents involving a shinai, allowing us store them in dorms would set a precedent:
What kind of precedent you saY?
I don't know...like; allowing fencing club swords, which is understandable, but then he completely lost when he said, archery club allowing their bows/arrow (mind you we don't have an archery club) and .... ski/shoot club (we don't have this club either) requesting to allow their rifles in dorms.
Apparently what we are asking him is just for "OUR CONVENIENCE" and if it's for convince why not allow liquor stores on campus?
Also he highlighted this page on the formal document, which I think is irrelevant seeing how NO SHINAIS where involved
http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/1474-kokushikan-university?

He did acknowledge that we were persistent.
He also acknowledge that he contacted other college clubs(that we told them about) and they said they hand no problems with their Kendo club.

*SIGH*
this would not be a problem if the University provided some decent storage space for us, but seeing how we're not a sports club(we are on the waitlist, bc they have max # clubs as sports club) only storage we could get is long term storage which we will not have regular access before/after practice.

GAAHHH this just makes this more complicated right before school starts!!!!!

Seeing how KW forum was cited in his document( Honestly is forum really a reliable source of citation?) I would not be surprised if he was reading this

[Electronegative]

We have officially been told to bugger off, and there is nothing that will change their mind.

[Dervish]

Wow. Just wow.

I read this thread for the first time earlier today (2 hours ago?), including the "final decision", and I am taken aback by what I believe is the sheer ignorance displayed by this school's personnel.

You offered lucid, logical points, of course.

This seems to be a discouraging turn of events, but I wouldn't give up just yet. Without knowing who made this decision, I would say if I were in your position, I'd go further up the administrative ranks, and bring it to the University's President if I had to. Let some very high ranking members of the university's administration commit their leaps of logic to paper. I know you said "the person who is suppose to be final decision maker", but in my personal experience regarding dealing with bureaucrats, most that fancy themselves to be the "final decision maker" are easily overridden by their superiors.

I understand there is a concern that if you continue to make the point about baseball bats and western fencing foils being allowed while kendo shinais aren't, that the school might ban those too and people may get mad at your club. Of course, I don't think that would make much sense, but I also think anything's possible. If the university ends up banning baseball bats and fencing foils and forces everyone to use only plastic dining forks and kindergarten scissors just because you made a logical argument about a right and privilege that students in just about every civilized university from the prestigious Ivy League to Podunk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podunk) state levels take for granted, in my opinion, I don't see how you could possibly be faulted for that kind of ridiculous scenario.

[hl1978]

Just leave shinai in a shinai bag and no one will be the wiser. My old roomate used to carry his rifle to practice inside a lacrosse stick bag and no one had a clue either.

[Electronegative]

We used to do that, carrying everything in bags, but they still called on us.
And according to this person, this year during RA and Residential Life training they will specifically address shinai and Kendo club.
They will also include shinai to banned list i.e. you get caught you loose your housing on campus.
I didn't realize how ignorant/stupid the administration of my school is until today.

[Jiyoui]

golf bag, pvc pipe, art student carrying tube

Disassemble after every practices so it looks like you're only carrying pieces of wood.

[Kendoka]

The incident where the guy was assaulted has nothing to do with doing kendo. Anyway, the kendo club reformed and continues.

A shinai is hardly a 'deadly weapon'! If you hit someone with a desklamp it would hurt as much.

Viewing this continuing issue from a long way is very interesting.

[dillon]

I wouldn't try under the radar storage. It just takes one person to get found out to get a bad reputation for the rest of you and the door shut forever.

Seeing as you're now in a nothing to lose position, you don't have to be afraid to offend anyone, least of all this official. Go over the person's head, get petitions signed, call alumni (who may bring it up when writing their donation checks), get parents to complain. Get the school paper to write about it. PR, PR, PR. You have nothing to lose. The school on the other hand will want your alumni donation one day.

And if all else fails, well be glad uni isn't forever (unless you're on an academic career track).

In the meantime, see if a sympathetic teacher with an office near the practice hall can't store the shinai for you in their office. I have a couple of friends who teach at a uni (not kendo) and they're just as frustrated with school bureaucracy as the students (though usually in different ways).

[hl1978]

We used to do that, carrying everything in bags, but they still called on us.
And according to this person, this year during RA and Residential Life training they will specifically address shinai and Kendo club.
They will also include shinai to banned list i.e. you get caught you loose your housing on campus.
I didn't realize how ignorant/stupid the administration of my school is until today.

I'd get a pledge not to donate to the school going.

[MikeW]

@Electronegative, sorry to hear the problems you've had. I would ask if they allow hockey club players to keep their twigs in their rooms, do golfers keep their clubs in rooms and do baseball players keep their bats in room? All of these are as, or more, potential to cause bodily harm than shinai or bokuto. As the faculty adviser and instructor for the kendo club at UNC Chapel Hill and board member of the SEUSKF I have not heard of any other college clubs in our federation having this problem. It probably won't do any good but if you think it would help out at all you can feel free to have them contact me (PM me if you want to follow up on this). Oh, and perhaps you can ask if the sports dept can allow you some storage space where the fencing club stores their weapons or something like that (if you haven't already). I know you're not a sports club but at UNC they allow some space to student orgs as well so you might want to investigate that further.

[Electronegative]

Thanks for helpful replies everyone!
Right now we are trying to work out some storage compromise with sports club, they said that it's long term storage, but we will work something out with them.
This is our number one priority for now seeing how school is about to start and we don't want to keep the shinais in car for obvious reasons.
In our formal proposal letter we did include how some of the things like baseball bats, lacrosse sticks, hockey sticks....etc. are allowed, but this person was completely ignorant and kept saying those things are irrelevant to kendo blah blah blah....
We did get some help and support from our faculty adviser, who is a 2nd Dan in Kyudo and more or less familiar with Kendo and Japanese martial arts in general.
WE WILL FIGHT THIS INJUSTICE!!
of course not attack but it will be something like dillon and hl1978 suggested.

[ipkalium]

I'm also a college student and have the same problem last year when I was still living in dorm. I ends up having the school add a new rules to the "weapon regulation", where they ban anything thing that looks like a weapon is not allowed in the dorm. I'm not saying that you shouldn't argue with them (and yes you should), just to let you know they can do something similar if they really don't want to see "sword" in the dorm.

[LarsCW]

If they have issues about you having a shinai at the dorm ask if you could get a place where you could store them. Ofcourse this would limit your chances to exersize but that's better then no exersize at all.

It might help if you make it clear that the practise of kendo doesn't only improve physical health but also your mental health which will help you to be a better student. Setting up strict rules for any participating might also be an option they would go for.

[bloodstained]

Hello all,

An extreme amount of things have happened since the last time Electronegative(Electro. abbrev) updated.
Coming back from study abroad, him and I have worked tirelessly to find a solution to this predicament.
This will get quite long so please bear with me, I'll do my best to organize for reading efficiency.

During the summer Electro worked on communicating with ResLife in order to try to speak with higher ups so
we could kill the problem at its source. However it seems that our continual attempts for an answer as well as
our usual practices have created some buzz within the higher ups. It's things like this that make you wish
people were more organized and communicated better, or just would simply ask rather than go in circles:

in Nov. 2010
"Ok, so there's all sorts of debate and drama about a martial arts
student group (Kendo Club) whose equipment is currently defined as a weapon
under our policies so we don't allow them to keep their equipment in their res hall rooms.
My first question is whether this group is actually a recognized student org?"

in June 2011
"...So this group has come back to the surface again. As I continue this
conversation with them about our policies can you help me get a better
understanding of what, if any, space is available on your side of campus
for clubs to store their items?"

in End-June 2011
"Hello XXXXXXX

......
As I have had further conversations around this issue with folks in residential life I am understanding that this is a Student Code of Conduct policy that we are talking about, not a residential life rule. That makes it a little more challenging than just changing the definition of your equipment. Have you spoken with anyone in Student Judicial Programs about this policy and their procedures for proposing a change? "

--------------------
To summarize, it took them nearly a year to communicate with each other, the information we could have given them if they had asked us, within a day.
The policy is related to ResLife because it directly affects the Residential Areas. I (the President), knew that going to the Judicial board might happen.
But I wanted to contain this within ResLife, if it went with Judicial, I knew the outlook would only be worse.
With all the support we had, all we wanted to do was open the eyes of ResLife higher ups to the actual truth, if this had happened technically there wouldn't
have even been a need to change the policy as those in charge now understood that Shinai's do not fall under the weapons category.


Nevertheless, the issue continued to escalate and now the matter was handed to the Director of Judicial Programs:

"Mr. XXXX & Mr. XXXX, (For the sake of anonymity just in case)

I have consulted with other offices on campus and prepared a response to your request. I can convey this to you in person, by phone, or via e-mail. Your choice. I have a lot of open time on my calendar Tuesday and Wednesday. Thursday is starting to fill up. I will be out of the office starting Monday, 7/25 through Monday, August 1. Please let me know how you would like to proceed. "
------------------------------
We knew with this sort of response and diction that he had an answer and it was not the answer we were looking for.
When we went in to see him, he showed some possible concern, and briefly inquired about our past and the history of the situation.
Though it seems that he was already bent on "No" and was not willing to listen to any possible solution we gave. But instead said to
try again in the future.

Here is his reasoning:
Shinai is a training equipment, like a tennis racquet, and not a weapon: Using this logic, we would also have to permit residence hall
storage of sabers or foils for the Fencing club, or other martial arts accessories such as nunchaku. If we had an Archery Club or a
Paintball Club, we would also be obligated, using your logic, to permit residence hall storage of their materials. Once we make an exception for
one group, it becomes a precedent that will be cited by others, and we do not wish to establish this precedent. Furthermore, if the reasonable UMBC
student would perceive a shinai as a sword or weapon, then it is a sword or weapon. If the reasonable UMBC student should see a Kendo Club
member walking down a residential hallway dressed in full bogu and equipped with a shinai, and possibly think to themselves "Here comes someone
in a costume with a weapon" then we have the problem of a symbol which could cause students to fear for their safety.

Kendo Club members would be responsible with their shinai, and the storage privilege would never be abused: I understand you are speaking for yourself, but my concern would be for some rogue Kendo Club member in the future who might dishonor the kendo tradition by using the shinai to harm another. See, for example: http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/1474-kokushikan-university?highlight=university%20death
To allow shinai to come into the residence halls would create a foreseeable risk, and potential liability for the Univ.

There have been no documented problems with shinai being used to harm another on campus. : Perhaps true for our campus, but not overall. See above.

Other campuses have approved shinai storage in residence halls: I could only verify that one of the two institutions you cited were allowing storage
of shinai in residence halls. I consulted with the colleagues via a listserv, and the consensus of those who responded was that they do not or would not
expand authorization for the possession and storage of shinai on campus.

Oh, and its possible he was recording & videotaping us during this convers. My Vice Pres. noticed a mic and cam pointed at us.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
After that, we decided it was time to take the offensive. We contacted multitudes of colleges and clubs and requested their aid via a formal
letter addressed to our UMBC President. We too ourselves, sent him a letter regarding this situation needing his intervention.
I believe we received around 6 letters of support from other colleges. In the end he delegated the responsibility to the VP of Student Affairs.
Meeting with her, threw us into a whole other ballgame.

Basically, she was able to see us in a more reasonable light and asked how would we measure or determine what would be too dangerous or not
to keep in dorms. Another club on campus is the wushu club, however their club main focus is on a enlightening aspect, training similarly to tai chi and
only doing forms. However this included use of sabers, broadswords, etc... And so technically on paper they were similar to the Kendo club. But obviously
we saw their equipment as more dangerous than ours. As she continued to explain the gateway risks of allowing shinais, I started to realize that
maybe shinai's would be better off not being in dorms.

I felt that should it have been allowed, it would have led to a too great of potential risks of those with more harmful intents sneaking things through
shinai bags. Though at that time I didn't come to this conclusion yet, and my VP still felt that we had been wronged. Gotta hand it to him though,
I respect him alot for his incredible zeal.
(Later on around the current time frame, we found out that an ex member of ours formed an "under the table" ninjutsu club. He too was fighting to get shinai's through, but so that other martial art club equipment would be allowed. We have warned one of his members of the consequences should the school find out and urged them to quietly disappear before local authorities got involved. All we know now is that they are possibly still holding practices. )


Eventually we got to the biggest issue we nor anyone except the VP of student affairs knew about.
No physically active clubs are allowed to practice, where we had been practicing for about a year.
This pretty much dumbstruck us both, and we have been trying ever since then (End of august) to find a place to practice.
Apparently, the area we were practicing in was never meant for martial art clubs, but over the course of years, this message
got lost in translation. Now that the VP of student affairs found out about us, we no longer have practices and have to work on
finding a place to practice.

The VP of student affairs, gave us her support and help as she too wanted all pertaining clubs to find the more appropriate space, which
was to be the Athletic building. However when it comes to athletics, especially ours, we found a stark reputation of inconsistencies, organization,
documents missing, and almost no handbook of policies for sports orgs.

Ironically enough, if they took more careful concern when I first urged to become a sports club, they would have noticed the loop hole where
those that wished to be sports clubs had to be an interest group for a year before applying. However these interest groups were not allowed to
do anything regarding combat, competition, etc... Should that loop hole been realized, this situation with now the Club and not just the shinai
would have been confronted a year ago.

[bloodstained]

As of now, we are working with the assistant director of events, who is talking with the athletics dept. to work on changing the schedule to accommodate
space for the Kendo Club. We are to expect an answer by this weekend. If this doesn't happen, there isn't much for us to do except focus our attention
on the many flaws of Athletics and fight another fight. But we'll hope for the best and hope the best happens.

I know this has been long, but I have tried my best to stay unbiased and show just plainly how the situation grew.
It is my greatest hope that no other club ever has to go through what we are still going through, even after a year.
Lesson so far is, if something isn't going right or the way it supposes to, stand up and say it now, rather than going with the
flow. I feel that should I have taken a stronger stand with that unusual loop hole a year ago, things could be different.

I tried to get the mainpoints across, there was too much info, Electro. if you see anything I left out feel free to add.

We'll keep you updated until we can finally reach the conclusion of this issue.

[Electronegative]

To sum up Chris' (bloodstained's) post : intellectually disabled people run UMBC.
For now with our practices cancelled we are carpooling as many members possible to our mentor Baltimore-Annapolis dojo.
Hopefully we'll get some space by the end of this week.
As for the "ninjutsu club", they tried to become official, but were deemed "too violent for University club", which I pretty much agree, I mean c'mon ninjutsu "art of assassination and espionage" don't know what the guy thought when he tried to start it. They are practicing randomly everywhere on campus, which is Very much so a liability issue for the University, they tried to piggy back off our shinai proposal to allow their "Martial arts" weapons, which I'm kind of glad it didn't go through, but at least they should give us a proper storage (I'm keeping all shinais in my car trunk, in dark garage).

We'll update you guys when we get the word from scheduling people.

Mirsaid P.

[dillon]

My head is dizzy from reading this.

I wish you best of luck, gambare!

[LarsCW]

So basically what they are saying is that when the baseball team walks around in their gear and someone would be affraid of the bat they would nolonger be allowed. I'm pretty sure that more people have been beaten to death with baseball bats then with a shinai.

This all I am understanding here is that they are affraid of a rogue element something you could never defend yourself against. The only thing you could do is set rules for kenshi and ban the kenshi who goes against those rules.

Fear towards martial arts is something extremly hard to fight against.

I do not know if any of you tried to talk to teachers to find support with them. if a teacher would testify that you are good students and follow the rules this might speak for you. Have you for example set some sort of grade average kenshi need to have to participate?

With such grade average they might look in a different way at a kendo club as all would have an above average grade. Or atleast above the set grade.

[Kendoka]

Unbelievable! Remembering a motto of an old friend "Those who are stupid, should be terated gently".

My sister once hit someone with her school bag, oh, and I know someone who once threw a book at a person. But best dont mention that or they'll ban all them too.

[hl1978]

How does the UMBC fencing club handle storage of its gear? What about other martial arts clubs?

How are lacrosse sticks, hockey sticks, baseball bats and golf clubs stored? Are they prohibited from storage in dorms? I assume that the adminstrators are aware that these items can cause more damage than a shinai which is designed to flex?

How does UMBC ROTC store its ducks (rubber m16's) and M1's used for drill? If they have m16s used for training exercises how is storage handled? We had some interesting things happen when we utilized ducks for training exercises on campus, along with dummy LAWs and claymores.

How does the UMBC color guard handle storage of its rifles?

[Electronegative]

Fencing club gets a storage in GYM building because they are classified as "Sports" club. This is one of the administrative BS where they set maximum of 25 sports clubs slots, and everyone else has to wait. But our club has made aware of people in higher ups how ridiculous their system is, and they have been working with us to fix these things. So far it's looking good, we probably will get practice space and storage inside the Athletics building by the end of the semester if not in few weeks. Before that we were practicing outside of gym (only sports clubs can practice there).

[Theodore]

Fencing club gets a storage in GYM building because they are classified as "Sports" club. This is one of the administrative BS where they set maximum of 25 sports clubs slots, and everyone else has to wait. But our club has made aware of people in higher ups how ridiculous their system is, and they have been working with us to fix these things. So far it's looking good, we probably will get practice space and storage inside the Athletics building by the end of the semester if not in few weeks. Before that we were practicing outside of gym (only sports clubs can practice there).

Do you have any alumni who do kendo and have pull with the University (e.g., donors)? If so that might tip the scale in your favor.