refined Kendo compared to brute MMA

[Havamal]

The best budo feedback, that you can surivive from, comes from sparring in UFC-style MMA format, in a dojo with considerate bushido and, even better, in competition, if you're fit enough.

MMA involves more spirit, depth of skill, and strength then at least one Kendo person in our Forums suggested this month.

That's what I like about Kendo -- frequent feedback, kind of like MMA, tho' a bit lighter on sharing pain.

"I hurt, therefore I am," a Hapkido motto. BTW, I am a beginner in Kendo.

Kindly comment, please....

[verissimus]

I would, but I didn't really understand what you're trying to say...

[ender84567]

I think he is trying to say he is an internet tough guy, and possibly a mall ninja. I cant really tell, I am no longer fluent in teenager.

[John Seavitt]

The best budo feedback ...

I think I consider "sport fighting" and "budo" to be pretty distinct.

John "someone's gonna explain 'considerate bushido' to me, right?'

[Havamal]

I think I consider "sport fighting" and "budo" to be pretty distinct.

John "someone's gonna explain 'considerate bushido' to me, right?'

You're right, sport fighting" and "budo" are not the same, thought from the similar source

[Havamal]

The best martial arts feedback, that you can surivive from, comes from sparring in UFC-style MMA format, in a dojo with considerate bushido and, even better, in competition, if you're fit enough.

MMA involves more spirit, depth of skill, and strength then at least one Kendo person in our Forums suggested this month.

That's what I like about Kendo -- frequent feedback, kind of like MMA, tho' a bit lighter on sharing pain.



Kindly comment, please....

I was trying to compare Kendo with other martial arts. Sorry about the lack of spell check

[hl1978]

To be quite honest, the people I have met who practice MMA were a lot more straight forward, less passive agressive and were less likely to condone/behave in the manner that I have witnessed in the more traditional martial arts styles and listed on the kendo-world forums.

[Havamal]

I think he is trying to say he is an internet tough guy, and possibly a mall ninja. I cant really tell, I am no longer fluent in teenager.
o

Good one, touche.

And funny, really.

No, I am not a tough guy, though I would like to be fit and have a good understanding of martial arts.

[Havamal]

... "someone's gonna explain 'considerate bushido' to me, right?'

In a dojo, we are considerate in that, foremost, we use control to prevent injury, adjusting the level of pain appropriate to the partner.

I've found that I learn much from sparring with MMA players.

[Havamal]

I would, but I didn't really understand what you're trying to say...

So sorry, I was in a hurry.

I would like to compare Kendo sparring vs. martial arts sparring, in gaining feedback with a partner that's hitting back.

Hope that's more clear.

[Havamal]

To be quite honest, the people I have met who practice MMA were a lot more straight forward, less passive agressive and were less likely to condone/behave in the manner that I have witnessed in the more traditional martial arts styles and listed on the kendo-world forums.

---- thank you very much for considering my question -----

[Havamal]

... I cant really tell, I am no longer fluent in teenager.

I am still conversant in "teenager."

I actually coach teenagers and I think they listen to me. At least they seem to do what I ask.

[hl1978]

---- thank you very much for considering my question -----

Its probably a cultural thing. While MMA is a ruleset rather than an art, the schools that practice it are very much results oriented. There far less of the wish fufillment/roleplaying (an attraction for some to be sure) and it is much more upfront on what you are there to do. Thats not to say that MMA is perfect, it has its own problems. Kendo and other do arts have to reconcile violence with character building.

As for skill its an apple and oranges thing, but you have to be conversant in a wide variety of techniques and ranges than you do in kendo. On the other hand with only 4 basic targets, its not exactly easy to score a point in kendo either.

[ben]

There's an interesting argument to consider that MMA is at a point now where kendo was during the early Meiji era and the time of gekken and Sakakibara Kenkichi. Gekken must have gone through a period of 'improvisation' while the rules and conventions were sorting themselves out. Over a decent period of time we get modern kendo with its rules (both written and unwritten). This article (http://kojutsukan.blogspot.com/2010/09/insidious-effect-of-training-methods-on.html) looks at the effects of UFC becoming more and more codified (defined by its own rules). It is interesting to consider that in 150 years, MMA may be as codified as kendo is. b

[Havamal]

There's an interesting argument to consider that MMA is at a point now where kendo was during the early Meiji era and the time of gekken and Sakakibara Kenkichi. Gekken must have gone through a period of 'improvisation' while the rules and conventions were sorting themselves out. Over a decent period of time we get modern kendo with its rules (both written and unwritten). This article (http://kojutsukan.blogspot.com/2010/09/insidious-effect-of-training-methods-on.html) looks at the effects of UFC becoming more and more codified (defined by its own rules). It is interesting to consider that in 150 years, MMA may be as codified as kendo is. b

Thank you for your article: http://kojutsukan.blogspot.com/2010/09/insidious-effect-of-training-methods-on.html

Martial arts, as a business model marketed to mostly working people with limited time and income, benefitted from compartmentalizing and liability insurance-proofing the martial arts, budo.

With limited resources, amateurs focusing one aspects (at a time period of years) of martial arts enble some understanding and a lot of benefit from a limited study, but in the olden days only the leisure class and the dedicated could learn real, comprehensive, martial arts, that had no modern, artificial divisions on weapons, unarmed stand-up striking, take-downs, and ground fighting.

While kata builds good form, distancing and effectively penetrating defenses can be best understood by some form of "fighting" (AKA sparring) that balances technique, spirit, and pain, with managing the risk to injury.

For me, the "sharing" of pain by sparring to reveal our true selves in action serves as useful element of learning, the "do," along with Zazen practice and kata (forms).

What struck me is that both Kendo and MMA spend a good portion of their time in "sparring" and both pursuits reveal the depth of understanding of the mind and body.

[John Seavitt]

While kata builds good form, distancing and effectively penetrating defenses can be best understood by some form of "fighting" (AKA sparring) ...

Old discussion, I suppose, but - is this true? How would one know? How do you know? Do you assert that an understanding of maai ("distancing and effectively penetrating defenses") isn't taught in kata? Folks can certainly do as they like, of course, none of it is life and death nowadays, I'm just asking.

I certainly expect that practicing sparring would make one better at sparring, of course, but ... kendo/boxing/MMA, one can be pretty certain that the other guy hasn't brought a knife, yes? Before anyone feels obliged to pile on, sure - in Japanese koryu, too, I'm not going to spend my time worrying about getting shot in the middle of training, either. After having some modern budo and koryu experience, I thought doing kendo was great, and admire the skill sets of some of the serious exponents I've seen; but I don't think it's the only way to get "it", and there's other things that have some other aspects of "it" along for the ride. Heck, I'm never going to box, but sheeeeit - Foreman/Ali, Zaire(DRC)? IMHO, YMMV, so on and so forth.

I can't comment on Hunter's point about some of the people stuff, though it wouldn't surprise me if he has a point about at least some folks. I'm sure there's places to do serious work in more traditional curricula, sport-fighting settings, and modern budo alike, and places where people are wrapped up in other stuff. Feet, get to voting.

John "still - 'bushido'? really?"

[Havamal]

Kyudo...i do not have time to practice this, but as is practiced, archery, on its own, would be hilariously impossible to make contact without destruction: "somebody will get hurt real bad" (Paintball guns, don't laugh too hard, might be a substitude? humor intended).

Kendo/kenjutsu, Judo/jujitsu, or karate/gungfu/tkd/etc all provides a means to work on "mushin" state of mind, to dicipline the ego and fear, to make holistic contact balanced with safety from chronic injury.

This Lounge does provoke thoughtful answers like no other forum.

While i enjoy polishing my mind abd getting my arse beaten during MMA-type sparrind, in a dojo, I would not want to play that in competition, but Kendo seems viaable; howecer, does Keno games promote mushin? (my guess is yes, but be careful)

[ender84567]

kyudo doesn't really work as an argument because hitting the target isint the goal.

[John Seavitt]

kyudo doesn't really work as an argument because hitting the target isint the goal.

That's not true of all, or even most, historical and extant kyudo koryu, though 'accurate', at least to some extent, of the highly Zen-affiliated Heki-ryu widespread in North America. Even they have targets, so ...

"Tea and Zen are one" is a popular saying amongst chanoyu practitioners, and Rikkyu's tea is certainly deliberately a vehicle of Zen, but if there ain't tea in the bowl when you hand it to the guest, you can be as enlightened as the Buddha and still be a lousy host.

John

[kurisu]

When considering "budo", every time I score ippon on my opponent or he scores ippon on me, that strike is considered a killing strike and it happens in the blink of an eye. The budo in kendo is to kill your opponent. With MMA, the goal and mindset is not to kill, but to knock out or submit your opponent, I don't see much budo there. I'm sure there are techniques that can kill a person, but you don't spar or train that way. As for budo, I would rather slice someone to kill them than choking someone or bashing thier skull in or what ever other hands on brutal way MMA folks would go about killing someone.

[Havamal]

When considering "budo", every time I score ippon on my opponent or he scores ippon on me, that strike is considered a killing strike and it happens in the blink of an eye. The budo in kendo is to kill your opponent. With MMA, the goal and mindset is not to kill, but to knock out or submit your opponent, I don't see much budo there. I'm sure there are techniques that can kill a person, but you don't spar or train that way. As for budo, I would rather slice someone to kill them than choking someone or bashing thier skull in or what ever other hands on brutal way MMA folks would go about killing someone.

With a Kendo match, due to bogu armor and flexy stick, you can move at full speed, and not kill and think that you could have: Remind me of Point-Karate players. That's carrying a bit of more delusions than MMA players.

With MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone that you could have killed. MMA deals with more hurt, takes more spirit. Tell us you're a Kenjutsu player smoting with a bokken and armor then perhaps I will compare thee to a MMA player's experience.

MMA's the most honest of combative sports: I see more budo in cage "fighting" games. Perhaps, if I am fortunate enough to get a basic understanding of Kendo, say in ten years, I may better understand and sympathize, but now I just don't see how that could be.

I do think and hope Kendo will facilitate that "mushin" mind

[kurisu]

With a Kendo match, due to bogu armor and flexy stick, you can move at full speed, and not kill and think that you could have: Remind me of Point-Karate players. That's carrying a bit of more delusions than MMA players.

With MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone that you could have killed. MMA deals with more hurt, takes more spirit. Tell us you're a Kenjutsu player smoting with a bokken and armor then perhaps I will compare thee to a MMA player's experience.

MMA's the most honest of combative sports: I see more budo in cage "fighting" games. Perhaps, if I am fortunate enough to get a basic understanding of Kendo, say in ten years, I may better understand and sympathize, but now I just don't see how that could be.

I do think and hope Kendo will facilitate that "mushin" mind

Bogu and flexy stick are so we don't kill each other. That was the reasoning behind them in the first place.

[yoda-waza]

With a Kendo match, due to bogu armor and flexy stick, you can move at full speed, and not kill and think that you could have: Remind me of Point-Karate players. That's carrying a bit of more delusions than MMA players.

With MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone that you could have killed. MMA deals with more hurt, takes more spirit. Tell us you're a Kenjutsu player smoting with a bokken and armor then perhaps I will compare thee to a MMA player's experience.

MMA's the most honest of combative sports: I see more budo in cage "fighting" games. Perhaps, if I am fortunate enough to get a basic understanding of Kendo, say in ten years, I may better understand and sympathize, but now I just don't see how that could be.

I do think and hope Kendo will facilitate that "mushin" mind

MMA, the most honest of combative sports that takes more spirit because it deals with more hurt, might leave your mind more in a state of mush than mushin. Or maybe that's football, or boxing, or...

[Havamal]

MMA, the most honest of combative sports that takes more spirit because it deals with more hurt, might leave your mind more in a state of mush than mushin. Or maybe that's football, or boxing, or...

State of mush mind may very well be true more most of the MMA players.
The players I met and practiced with are almost all clearheaded, down-to-earth, practical minded martial artists.

Let's look at an inspiring player, such as Georges "Rush" St-Pierre* who is a martial artist first that plays UFC games professionally: I surmise that his Kyokushin karate and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu develops his "budo" and may have have waza that can achieve, "one shot, one kill" so mentioned by the late Gichin Funokoshi.

*http://www.gspfightclub.com/en/biographie.php

One that deals with more hurt could be closer to "truths".

No doubt, tough, Kendo is sublime, frustrating, and fun and a whole lot less hurtful then MMA

[Josh Reyer]

With MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone that you could have killed.

In an MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone with a punch that would have broken your hand in a real fight.

[Bokushingu]

In an MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone with a punch that would have broken your hand in a real fight.

If they train on the Heavy bag as much as regular boxers, then i doubt they would break their hand in a real fight. The first six months of heavy bag training your knuckles and wrist hurt a lot and soon after you get over the pain, your fist hardened & become extremly dangerous. after 6 years of boxing as an ameatuer, i was fooling around with guy and hit him without gloves & it felt like his skull caved in -- when he went down, i thought he was dead...most scariest moment in my life.

MMA fighters are extremly dangerous outside the ring. they can do some serious damage, especially to an untrained fighter without hurting themselves.

[Havamal]

In an MMA match, due to padding on the knuckles, you can move at full speed and knockout someone with a punch that would have broken your hand in a real fight.

MMA padding rules are for mainly marketing, to gain regulatory access to more states. Some urban liberals, such as my sister, a professor, wanted to ban the UFC league in the '90s. Bloody faces limit access.

Trained MMA fighters with good waza hardly ever break their hands.
"Real" fights from trained people rarely go past one (or two) solid bare knuckle direct hit(s) (or kicks) to the head.

On one amateur UFC bout, my friend's game lasted 6 seconds: one head punch KO, the hand did not break.

Personally, I can barely handle the hurt in a dojo session (weird feeling: getting knee'd to the chest after being taken down, painfully fun with people you know, but I would not want to compete in MMA).

I am curious about Kendo competition, at the appropriate time...

[ender84567]

kendo competition is relatively pain free.

[kurisu]

State of mush mind may very well be true more most of the MMA players.
The players I met and practiced with are almost all clearheaded, down-to-earth, practical minded martial artists.

Let's look at an inspiring player, such as Georges "Rush" St-Pierre* who is a martial artist first that plays UFC games professionally: I surmise that his Kyokushin karate and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu develops his "budo" and may have have waza that can achieve, "one shot, one kill" so mentioned by the late Gichin Funokoshi.

*http://www.gspfightclub.com/en/biographie.php

One that deals with more hurt could be closer to "truths".

No doubt, tough, Kendo is sublime, frustrating, and fun and a whole lot less hurtful then MMA

I'm not sure what your definition of budo is, but I tend to think of it as Norma Hisashi puts it in the Kendo reader:

"Budo was devised for and deployed in situations where ones life itself was at risk. For this crucial reason it differs greatly from sport, and it is in this point that the true value of Budo is to be found."

I don't see MMA as a life or death. Maybe in extreme situations, but overall as a way of waging war, I just don't see it. As long as man has been warring, weapons of some sort have been used. Empty hand has always been a last resort. I'm not totally discounting it as budo, but I don't see it as a primary way.

When it comes to mushin, that comes from training in anything, it doesn't even have to be a martil art. What ever it is, it's still will take about the same time and effort to obtain. Trying to obtain mushin in kendo will take many many years of training. To act without thought, you first have to be able to do the action. Just to be able to do the action correctly takes years to accomplish. Mushin is what we strive for to make us better at what we are doing, we don't do things to help us have better mushin (expect practicing what ever we practice).

[JSchmidt]

If they train on the Heavy bag as much as regular boxers, then i doubt they would break their hand in a real fight.

Hmm, a friend of mine is a former pro boxer and states the force they're punching with would break their hands...and still often do, despite the gloves.

[IndigoGirl]

More spirit in MMA, eh?
Screw the spirit, I prefer to do a martial art that I can still do at the age of 70 or 80. At that age a MMAist is either dead or a drooling demented cripple.

[Bokushingu]

Hmm, a friend of mine is a former pro boxer and states the force they're punching with would break their hands...and still often do, despite the gloves.

Yeah i think after a while it starts to wear down. you devlop nasty pains and tenderness that last a life time. My best friend made it to the pro's. but after 10 or so, fights he had to retire from the knuckles being pushed into his hand...he could barely hold a pencil in his right hand.

[Havamal]

More spirit in MMA, eh?
Screw the spirit, I prefer to do a martial art that I can still do at the age of 70 or 80. At that age a MMAist is either dead or a drooling demented cripple.

Agreed...

...although Kendo, on the surface, does do not much to install confidence in deterring self-defense, but is a fun way to build up life, holistically.

MMA sparring in a dojo's a good workout and satisfying, but there a limit...rare to see someone over 50, though I did roll with a 65 year old yudansha in jujitsu that played strongly.

If I had to choose two arts: I'd say Jujitsu (or Judo) and Kendo -or- Jujitsu (or Judo) and Karate (not full-contact MMA) are good for regenerative, long life practices.

I see myself gravitating towards Jiujitsu and Kendo.

[Neil Gendzwill]

...although Kendo, on the surface, does do not much to install confidence in deterring self-defense, but is a fun way to build up life, holistically.If you're studying martial arts for a lifetime for self-defence, you're a nutbar.

[ender84567]

Judo/jujitsu is not a good lifelong practice, usually too hard on the knee. Have you seen the way the 80 year old judo sensei walk?

[Havamal]

If you're studying martial arts for a lifetime for self-defence, you're a nutbar.

it's a good side benefit: if you can't see that than you're a clueless idealist.

main reason is that hand-to-hand sparring is FUN, a rush of a "conversation"

[Havamal]

Judo/jujitsu is not a good lifelong practice, usually too hard on the knee. Have you seen the way the 80 year old judo sensei walk?

hmmm... good point.

I'm still "young," I still want to throw a spinning hook kick that can connect or do a take-down.

adding Kendo now is the right time

[Neil Gendzwill]

it's a good side benefit: if you can't see that than you're a clueless idealist.It's not even that, a lot of the time. Kendo has almost zero self-defence application other than general fitness and mindset. If you were really interested in self-defence, Japanese martial arts of almost any flavour is probably not the efficient way to go.

[Havamal]

It's not even that, a lot of the time. Kendo has almost zero self-defence application other than general fitness and mindset. If you were really interested in self-defence, Japanese martial arts of almost any flavour is probably not the efficient way to go.

Hmm. I perhaps miss-understood you earlier: Sorry about that, if I did. Well, Japanese Karate has not proven to be efficient as I had hoped: too much focus on "tag" and safety over practicality and "stress-testing" that I have come to appreciate from my first school, a kickboxing Taekwondo.

Judo or (Jiujitsu with their MMA) offers more fun contact.

Thus my conclusion, do more Kendo (with lots of safe contact - when they let me) and Jiujitsu (and get some of the guys to sparr MMA with me, keeping me humble), but I can see my attendance in Karate dojo declining, though it's hard to quit after all these years.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I think a lot of people get into martial arts thinking it will make them, if not Bruce Lee, at least able to hold their own in a fight. The truth is that these days, you don't want to be in a fight, and there are a ton of bad things that can happen that no amount of training will help with. Situational awareness and good cardio fitness probably are the most important things. Avoiding situations and getting out of them if they develop - this is what you need. 20 years of practicing that reverse punch (or triangle, or whatever) doesn't help when you get hit from behind with a beer bottle. But there are a lot of other benefits to that 20 years of training.

People look at karate and kendo and say one is good for self-defence and one is not. But I think the real reasons for the practice of both are the same, and in the long run self-defence ends up being about as important in karate as kendo - which is to say, hardly at all.

[Havamal]

Can some moderator correct the headline spelling on this thread? "refinded" is giving me a headache, oie!

[Havamal]

I think a lot of people get into martial arts thinking it will make them, if not Bruce Lee, at least able to hold their own in a fight. The truth is that these days, you don't want to be in a fight, and there are a ton of bad things that can happen that no amount of training will help with. Situational awareness and good cardio fitness probably are the most important things. Avoiding situations and getting out of them if they develop - this is what you need. 20 years of practicing that reverse punch (or triangle, or whatever) doesn't help when you get hit from behind with a beer bottle. But there are a lot of other benefits to that 20 years of training.

People look at karate and kendo and say one is good for self-defence and one is not. But I think the real reasons for the practice of both are the same, and in the long run self-defence ends up being about as important in karate as kendo - which is to say, hardly at all.

Looking back at all the years, since I started "budo" in ernest, I've hardly made contact in fights or in imminent fights, but I have prevented several fights, saved a person from a beating, walked off few, shaking, but resolved and I think this is so because i have been prepared and ready - or just been lucky.

When we did a demo at school, we were impressed with the Kendo demo and I had then resolved to take it up, but after I had focused on unarmed fighting.

One waza, i've used several times, is the ability to take (air)falls and rollouts, esp. as I ride mountain bikes in Downieville, CA, a real "meca" for pedalers. That's one self-defense skill I know that works.

[Anonymous]

If I want self defense I *do* have a CCW permit.

[hl1978]

Hmm. I perhaps miss-understood you earlier: Sorry about that, if I did. Well, Japanese Karate has not proven to be efficient as I had hoped: too much focus on "tag" and safety over practicality and "stress-testing" that I have come to appreciate from my first school, a kickboxing Taekwondo.

Judo or (Jiujitsu with their MMA) offers more fun contact.

Thus my conclusion, do more Kendo (with lots of safe contact - when they let me) and Jiujitsu (and get some of the guys to sparr MMA with me, keeping me humble), but I can see my attendance in Karate dojo declining, though it's hard to quit after all these years.

You can always look into kyokushin or enshin karate if you want a more "traditional" style that goes with heavy/full contact. Enshin is basically a kyokushin offshoot with throws. Both allow kicks to the heads but no punches to the head, full punches to the body. Go on youtube for the sabaki challenge to see their tournaments. They're usually open to any style.

If you find 70's karate videos it tends to be a lot more like how kyokushin still trains today, and less point oriented.

On a related note, learning how to do breakfalls helped a lot when I fell off my motorcycle.

[Havamal]

If I want self defense I *do* have a CCW permit.

Good for you and your community.

More citizens should take on that burden and priviledge.

That permits nearly impossible to gain in my community.

[ben]

Good for you and your community.

More citizens should take on that burden and priviledge.

That permits nearly impossible to gain in my community.

Let's not go there. Gun control/lack thereof is a surefire (oops!) way to consign a thread to the flames. On par with religion, the Nazis and 11/9.

b

[Anonymous]

Let's not go there. Gun control/lack thereof is a surefire (oops!) way to consign a thread to the flames. On par with religion, the Nazis and 11/9.

b

Bahahahaha.)

[Havamal]

...Kyokushin or Enshin karate if you want a more "traditional" style that goes with heavy/full contact.

If you find 70's karate videos it tends to be a lot more like how kyokushin still trains today..

On a related note, learning how to do breakfalls helped a lot when I fell off my motorcycle.

Neither Kyokushin or Enshin are near me.

Yep, I have that 1976 Kyokushin "Fighting Black Kings" dvd.

Hmm: motorcycle's good. I used to ride.

[Havamal]

Bahahahaha.)

Other than "polishing" the mind, "'Karate' is for when you're out of bullets."

[Anonymous]

Other than "polishing" the mind, "'Karate' is for when you're out of bullets."

No, thats what escrima and my bayonet are for.

(I 've been doing kyokushin for something like 3 years, did wado ryu for another 10, and to be honest neither is nearly as useful as paying attention to your surroundings to begin with, and not getting involved if you really don't know whats going on.)

[Brian Pettett]

Can some moderator correct the headline spelling on this thread? "refinded" is giving me a headache, oie!

That one among many others...