Electronic scoring what do you think?

[Mick]

Last night at the dojo a discussion started about electronic scoring (like the scoring used in fencing). Not sure how it got started, I think it was an excuse for a break because we were all exhausted.

Anyway some of the comments were, " How can you electronically score zanshin"? and " Well at least a men ippon would be a men ippon!, unlike the Takanabe/Ushimura final" (a bit harsh I thought).

I don't think I would like Kendo going in this direction. What are your thoughts?

I have done a search through the forum and can't find much on this. Apologies in advance if I have missed a thread!:silly:

[Kokoro777]

If its used as an adjunct to traditional refereeing then I think it can only increase the number of 'correct' decisions. So if someone makes a proper strike but without zanshin, the referee can simply override the decision. I'd advocate video monitoring and GPS too :wink:

[b8amack]

*vote to move to flames*

[Mick]

C'mon, my 7th post and you want to discard me into the flames! This is a legit subject and a possibly a path Kendo could take one day. I feel it is something worth discussing, even as awful as it sounds.

[b8amack]

The thread, not you.

[FastKendo]

This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.

[hl1978]

I will put on my engineer hat. If budgets were unlimited, and the scoring equipment could be made lightweight I can think of some interesting possibilities.

You could go beyond a simple electrical connection to determine a "touch" and all of the associated problems (whipping so that the side of the blade contacts for a score). You could utilize pressure plates and set a threshold amount of force for a cut, or a duration of contact to ensure a push/pull motion. This could be adjusted for different weight classes/age groups, or the thresholds could be adjusted if one wanted to simulate armoured vs unarmoured combat. Some issues could arise with respect to ai-men etc, a simple electrical system might be able to signal who hit first, however in an ai men situation, both people are essentially "dead", so a threshold would need to be set to allow for overlaping contact.

You would need some intelligence for nidan waza, if a kote was scored electronically good, but the men was not considered "correct". This would account for the need for live shimpan as well.


This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.

That is a neat idea.

[MiddleEarthNet]

As a fencer, I can say that in fencing competitions, the time lost to faults with electrical equipment is significant. And believe me, arguments and wrong desicions are just as common.

Taking on a more general look - I wonder how/if kendo will adapt to new technologies.
For instance, rather than eletronics on the competitors, an electronic score board could show scores clearly and be updated at the press of a button.

A little off topic but the carbon fibre shinais are an example of using modern materials (I am aware that many people are not fond of these).

[IronWarrior]

I don't like the idea, it's not Kendo and isn't what Kendo is about, kinda craps upon the values of Budo don't you think?

High-speed camers I wouldn't mind.

[dillon]

Making contact is only one of many criteria in yuko-datotsu. Kendo is also a progression and criteria are adjusted to the level of the players and competition and so far humans are the best machines for scoring this.

Having done fencing before, sabre fencing (probably the closest to kendo) was the least reliant on electronics, at least 15 years ago.

[ShinKenshi]

This could be good. Or simply adding a vibrating flag, if the hit is landed, then the correct flag will softly vibrating and the rest is depend on the shimpan's judgement. But to add a very light, thin and durable devices are challenging.By and large, this seems to be among the more sensible suggestions for electronic signaling that I can recall. You still have the shimpan making the final decision and, combining this idea with hl1978's engineering idea, could allow for a very unobtrusive aid that could allow for additional confirmation that a senshu's strike did in fact land. That being said however, there is the problem of being able to create a system that could tell the difference between a hit that is too shallow/deep and one using the monouchi. This would probably require the addition of some sort of sensor to the shinai.

We could go on all day about any sort of unobtrusive electronic aid for use during taikai but in the end, I feel that because of criteria for yuko-datotsu that can't be electronically measured, any sort of electronic scoring device would be extremely difficult to implement. It also would cast doubts on the shimpan's abilities as a kenshi, especially at high profile events such as the WKC or the All Japan Championships. I'm not saying that shimpan, as human beings, are infallible, but from a kendo standpoint, anything that seems to favor point scoring over technique should not be used.

[MikeW]

Don't need it, don't want it (electronic scoring).

[Kokoro777]

kinda craps upon the values of Budo don't you think?I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.

[IronWarrior]

I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.

Not so sure of that, Samurai's used to battle each other to test their skill, these could be seen as "competitons" to an point. These battles took two forms, the first was to the death before Shini's and Bogu's was created and afterwards where they wouldn't kill the other Samurai.

[Josh Reyer]

I think having competitions and point scoring did that a long time ago.
Given the winner's reaction at the end of this match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NctTvFqGPWM), compared to that of this match (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbFpcx6xJvg), I don't think that's true. Kendo remains budo above all else.

Really, I don't see the point to electronic scoring, or even flags. Kendo refereeing is already tremendously accurate and efficient, despite a highly demanding set of criteria. For every Takanabe-Uchimura bout (which at worst is a judgment call, not a grievous error) you have a Takanabe-Teramoto bout. Electronic scoring wouldn't improve accuracy, at least, not enough to offset the drawbacks to having it.

[pgsmith]

View from the outside ...
Depending upon electronics lessens a person's ability to perform without them. This has been proven in a number of scientific studies. Since Kendo is ultimately about improving the self, not winning competitions, why would you even consider implementing something that actually lessens the self rather than improving it? If your kendo is only about winning competitions, then I can see why you would advocate any technology which improves the point accuracy. If your kendo is actually about the stated goals of kendo, then human error from shimpan would be something very much worth keeping.

Just my opinion.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I will put on my engineer hat. If budgets were unlimited, and the scoring equipment could be made lightweight I can think of some interesting possibilities.[snip]That's all just fantasy for now. I can't see it being practical or affordable. Any automation of the scoring would have to be simplified immensely to make reliable, affordable equipment. Even then it would be an expense and a burden to kendo clubs. As soon as electronic scoring happens, people will tailor their play to make the machines score, which will take kendo even further into the realm of pure sport than we want to go. Not to mention that we would all be forced to use some horrible electrified version of a carbon shinai along with some wired-up version of bogu - thanks, but no thanks.

This affects more than the players - an important element of kendo is acting as shimpan - understanding what is and is not a point and making those calls under pressure. Electronic scoring would also take away or limit that valuable experience.

[michaelm]

Since no one has posted it yet, discussion should at least be framed by the official rules:

Article 17. YUKO DATOTSU is defined as the accurate striking
or thrusting made to DATOTSU spots with the SHINAI at its
DATOTSU-BU edge with KIAI
(spirit and positive voice), the right posture, and ZANSHIN
(mental and physical alertness against the opponents attack;
positive follow through of attack and strike),
a. One handed DATOTSU and DATOTSU in retreat, however,
must be executed after a clear positive strike.
b. GO-NO-WAZA (DATOTSU countering an opponent's DATOTSU)
as a counter or parry to TSUBA-ZERIAI (when both opponents
establish contact with TSUBA) must be clear and precise.

2. An accurate DATOTSU in the following instances shall be valid:
a. When a DATOTSU is made immediately after a player
loses their grip on the SHINAI or drops it.
b. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the opponent steps
out of bounds (court).
c. DATOTSU made simultaneously when the match is
signaled as ended.
3. DATOTSU in the following cases will not be considered valid:
a. AIUCHI (valid DATOTSU made mutually and simultaneously
by both opponents).
b. DATOTSU made to an opponent who is parrying his opponent effectively.

[Missingno.]

Has anyone (on this forum or not) actually tried using anything like this? I sure would like to actually see some system like this in action. Maybe I'll try to throw something together this winter or next summer if I can find a way to make it without spending too much money. I have a few ideas floating around in my head already...

[hyuna]

Kendo refereeing is already tremendously accurate
I have never seen any kind of objective analysis of the accuracy of kendo refereeing. To measure it as accurate, we would have to look at a set of actual calls and to compare them against a set of idealized calls to see how often they match up. I don't know for sure that there is any corpus of such idealized calls, or that there is even a consistent way to draw them up. Even kodansha can reasonably disagree about whether or not a particular point should be taken or not.


why would you even consider implementing something that actually lessens the self rather than improving it?
This is a really, really interesting point. Learning to do shimpan is very difficult and studying how to do it generates a lot of insight about kendo. I have never thought of acting as shimpan as a form of keiko before, but you have made me see that it is, in some sense, exactly that. From that sense, taking away the difficulties and pressures of acting as shimpan with electronic aids maybe directly affects the development of high level kendo skill. That's a new thought for me.

[Missingno.]

I will put on my engineer hat. If budgets were unlimited, and the scoring equipment could be made lightweight I can think of some interesting possibilities.

You could go beyond a simple electrical connection to determine a "touch" and all of the associated problems (whipping so that the side of the blade contacts for a score). You could utilize pressure plates and set a threshold amount of force for a cut, or a duration of contact to ensure a push/pull motion. This could be adjusted for different weight classes/age groups, or the thresholds could be adjusted if one wanted to simulate armoured vs unarmoured combat. Some issues could arise with respect to ai-men etc, a simple electrical system might be able to signal who hit first, however in an ai men situation, both people are essentially "dead", so a threshold would need to be set to allow for overlaping contact.

You would need some intelligence for nidan waza, if a kote was scored electronically good, but the men was not considered "correct". This would account for the need for live shimpan as well.

Instead of pressure plates on bogu, how about a strain gauge in the shinai to measure how much it bends? That way you'd just need wire mesh on bogu target areas and the bottom slat of the shinai. It would be both light weight and affordable.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Learning to do shimpan is very difficult and studying how to do it generates a lot of insight about kendo. I have never thought of acting as shimpan as a form of keiko before, but you have made me see that it is, in some sense, exactly that. From that sense, taking away the difficulties and pressures of acting as shimpan with electronic aids maybe directly affects the development of high level kendo skill. Yes, this is the point I was trying to make above.

[ShinKenshi]

View from the outside ...
Depending upon electronics lessens a person's ability to perform without them. This has been proven in a number of scientific studies. Since Kendo is ultimately about improving the self, not winning competitions, why would you even consider implementing something that actually lessens the self rather than improving it? If your kendo is only about winning competitions, then I can see why you would advocate any technology which improves the point accuracy. If your kendo is actually about the stated goals of kendo, then human error from shimpan would be something very much worth keeping.

Just my opinion.I agree completely. People can create new and innovative pieces of equipment to try to improve the accuracy of judging a valid point but if such a thing is created, it takes away the need and drive to improve your own ability to judge a point. There have been plenty of people who have won or lost a match here and there due to inexeprienced shimpan but, unless you have tried your hand at being one, I don't think you can truly appreciate how difficult of a job it is. I've given it a try at a shimpan seminar and it was a huge eye opener for me. I began to understand that it is more difficult than people think it is so before you go pushing for technological additions to shiai, go and try being shimpan a few times first.

Having said that, I also agree with others in that adding sensors to bogu and/or shinai pushes kendo into being more about winning rather than improving yourself. To me, in many cases, if you lost because someone struck a dubious point, then in a way you had lost before they even began striking. If you don't win before striking and are just peppering your opponent with hits and relying on speed alone, then you're ignoring a larger part of what kendo is.

[ShinKenshi]

Instead of pressure plates on bogu, how about a strain gauge in the shinai to measure how much it bends? That way you'd just need wire mesh on bogu target areas and the bottom slat of the shinai. It would be both light weight and affordable.This would require wiring every single competitor's bogu and shinai, increasing the amount of time it takes to run a tournament. Also, where would you put the transmitters? I can easily see them getting smashed, knocked off the competitors, and (as others have said) an overall change in tactics to trigger the sensors. Bottom line is that any possible device that people want to try to use to indicate a hit is going to be too obtrusive to be of any use and will result in people being only concerned with winning taikai whatever the cost. It's just a very, very slippery slope.

[FastKendo]

While I agree with the majority here as every arguments are reasonable, my idea were only to add a a quick information to shimpans and only for them, that the strike is hit at the correct target and using the correct part of the shinai. About the tenouchi, zanshin, etc, none can substitute the shimpans judgement.
I also aware that it may cost a lot more, the bogu is already expensive and adding any unnecessary cost would seems not an option. Maybe someday, or is there any cheap and yet reliable technology in the current time?

About the development of high level kendo skill, I can't say anything about it as I'm definitely not even a yudansha. But no need to apply this technology outside the major tournament, that means, every shimpan will still able to learn a great deal at the dojo or perhaps at the regional tournament.

Having said that, I think the effort may not really worth to do since the result will only decisive quiet sometimes. But if the technology is there, cheap, plain, and simple, why not? The budo is still there, the personal development is still there, it's just one of those tournament's tools.

[Missingno.]

This would require wiring every single competitor's bogu and shinai, increasing the amount of time it takes to run a tournament. Also, where would you put the transmitters? I can easily see them getting smashed, knocked off the competitors, and (as others have said) an overall change in tactics to trigger the sensors. Bottom line is that any possible device that people want to try to use to indicate a hit is going to be too obtrusive to be of any use and will result in people being only concerned with winning taikai whatever the cost. It's just a very, very slippery slope.

Have you seen a strain gauge? They are very light and discreet. Yes, you would have to have a wire running through your shinai. From an engineering standpoint, I see this as more efficient than having individual pressure pads for each target area. It's not a perfect idea obviously, I'm just brainstorming.

How about a force sensor hooked to the tsuru to measure tension? When a hit happens, the shinai will bend, thus instantaneously decreasing tension in the tsuru. Again, all you would need is wire mesh on bogu target areas and the monouchi of the bottom slat, and you have valid target + required force = "valid hit" portion of yuko datotsu.

Again, definitely not a perfect system, but I'm trying to be creative. There are many possible solutions tho this problem. I'm confident that there are ways of measuring the "ken" part of "ki-ken-tai-ichi" without drastically changing the spirit and aesthetics of kendo. Whether or not it would be good for kendo is subject to debate, but I would at least like to attempt to rig up a prototype and try it for myself just for fun.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I could throw up a bunch of technical objections to your scheme, but I will say simply, no. Don't want it. Unnecessary and worse.

[Missingno.]

I could throw up a bunch of technical objections to your scheme, but I will say simply, no. Don't want it. Unnecessary and worse.

Please do, I'd hate to waste my time on something that doesn't work.

[verissimus]

Please do, I'd hate to waste my time on something that doesn't work.

1) False readings? Your shinai can flex around your opponent's shinai.
2) How do you make it tamper-proof?

It opens a can of worms, and you'd need dedicated technicians on stand-by. No one in my dojo has that kind of expertise.

[Halcyon]

Referees in professional American football use instant replay. Major League Baseball umps do not. You may recall this saga earlier this year:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/mlb/2010/06/jim_joyces_response_to_mistake.html

I thought both the ump and the pitcher showed tremendous class in responding to this bad call. There was something quite human and heartwarming about the whole episode that gave me pause, and made me think about how it could be one reason why baseball is still America's national pasttime even though football has overtaken baseball in the number of TV viewers.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Please do, I'd hate to waste my time on something that doesn't work.You're wasting your time anyways.

[pgsmith]

There are many possible solutions tho this problem.
Perhaps you are seeing a problem where the more senior folks see none at all. That, I think, is a problem. :)

Just for grins, lets see a show of hands of those yondan and above that believe there is a problem to be corrected with shimpan actually being able to see valid hits.

Let's hear it ...

[turboyoshi]

I also wouldn't want to see this but I'm not really worried about raising the question because I also believe it will be impossible to convince the FIK to allow this sort of thing in kendo.
However for the sake of discussion, even if you can rebut the technical objections, there are other reasons for not attempting to introduce point measuring devices into kendo. My main 2 objections would be thus:
Firstly, kendo is not about competition and doing things that focus on the competitive aspect of kendo is not how kendo, as an art, will improve. Kendo would end up like judo or fencing and I don't know anyone who thinks that would be a good thing.
Secondly, there will be lots of false positives if you're only measuring contact, You would end up making more work for the shinpan rather than less. The shinpan will have to ignore so much that eventually, they'll just end up ignoring the technology completely.

[Fudo-Shin]

Perhaps you are seeing a problem where the more senior folks see none at all. That, I think, is a problem. :)

Just for grins, lets see a show of hands of those yondan and above that believe there is a problem to be corrected with shimpan actually being able to see valid hits.

Let's hear it ...For what it's worth, I'm only a lowly nidan but I don't think there is any problem with shimpan anyway, even at my level. And yes, I am competitive and I have had bad calls go against me in matches that were important to me. My reaction in the past has at first been inwardly (and outwardly to a point) negative but soon after that my resolve was to not even let aite get close enough or control me that way to lose like that in future matches, which I believe is part of the lesson of accepting bad calls, as well as humility.

This whole takanabe/uchimura thing I believe has been overlooked by many. The shimpan saw that takanabe had set up uchimura for that opening and executed and followed through, he obviously broke uchimura's composure. Whether he cleanly made contact with men or kote is somewhat irrelevant as it was a decisive cut anyway as shown by uchimura'a reaction. Personally, I think that super slo-mo video is a bad angle to illustrate whether or not he made clean contact with the men anyway, the shinai seems to have bent over his kote and still made contact with men, either way it's ippon and we simply have to accept the decision even with the luxury of slo-mo in retrospect.

My point in all this being that shimpan can and do still see things that no machine will ever see, the big picture being the main example. So, no to electronics from me, it's not needed and will take kendo further away from it's purpose, hence the old boys will never let it happen.

[b8amack]

This would just be another method to cast doubt on the shimpan. Who out there, if it wasn't for super slo-mo would doubt that Uchimura got nailed? Having an electronically controlled flag... first of all, how would that even work, with tsuba-zeriai? THere'd be readings all over the place, and hiki waza would very quickly become THE best way to score a point. Then there's all the misfires those things get. I fenced. The button gets stuck, people hit the floor.... and those are just the accidents, never mind the flickers and others who learn to game the gear so it sets off. I think it's a horrible idea, and would hope that if this did ever happen (and the only reason it would ever happen would be Olympic money-chasers) that there would be an immediate split in the FIK between people who did that shit kendo, and the rest of us.

[ben]

Interesting idea for a discussion, even if I think it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." It's always good to have a sound set of reasons to resist what many others might see as "inevitable".

The only way I could see electronic scoring incorporated into kendo shiai without undermining completely the role of the shinpan is as a kind of instant and private feedback for shinpan only. Shinpan would still need complete discretion to overrule what technically might have been yuko datotsu, so the crowd would not need to know the raw technical response. But some form of indicator of, say, who struck first in an aiuchi situation could be helpful.

However as others have said, you're then denying people the need to improve their skills and perception to the point where they are able to judge aiuchi situations with the naked eye. Shinpan-ing is undoubtedly keiko. I introduce it to my students early and they all say what a difference it makes to their awareness of what a ippon really looks (and 'feels') like. They understand exactly and without explanation how this can help their kendo.

It reminds me of a discussion on road safety that we're having in this country. Apparently in some towns in Europe, traffic lights and even stop signs have been removed. The result is a drop in road accidents in those towns, at those intersections. Reliance on technology can reduce the mindfulness and effort people put into a given activity. In this sense I'd kendo is quite advanced in maintaining a "low-tech" stance on competition.

b

[ben]

One thing I think technology could still be used for, and perhaps you engineers could think about this one, is how to train shinpan outside shiai.

In Australia we don't have nearly as much chance for shinpan to practice their skills. At a recent seminar, Nakata Yuji sensei started by asking, "So how many of you would shinpan at more than 50 taikai a year?" When he found out that the most anyone did was 3-4, he was a bit taken aback, but then realised the gulf between Japanese kendo and kendo outside Japan. Given that the only way to get good at being shinpan is practice, is there anything we can do to assist that process?

I always thought a kind of interactive game should be possible. Footage of actual matches where the shinpan decisions had been edited out. You hit a button and maybe even give a voice response, within a certain time frame. At the end of the match, you find out what the "Hanshi" response would have been and analyse the differences. You'd need good sound and HD video. Ideally projected onto a large screen. Perhaps it could be a Wii game (red and white Wii controllers? :P)

This is an example of technology coming to the aid of kendo, don't you think?

b


Double post, sorry.

[D'Artagnan]

At a recent seminar, Nakata Yuji sensei started by asking, "So how many of you would shinpan at more than 50 taikai a year?"

To be fair that is a hell of a lot... 50 matches a year maybe, but 50 taikai? WOW! He might have been winding you guys up there... I don't know anyone who does that many. Even school teachers...

[b8amack]

It reminds me of a discussion on road safety that we're having in this country. Apparently in some towns in Europe, traffic lights and even stop signs have been removed. The result is a drop in road accidents in those towns, at those intersections. Reliance on technology can reduce the mindfulness and effort people put into a given activity. In this sense I'd kendo is quite advanced in maintaining a "low-tech" stance on competition.

Population of those towns? Sounds like a statistical aberration due to novelty. Of course, I'm coming from a place where red lights and stop signs mean HONK before accelerating through the intersection, and so I'm hardly objective. As a question, though, what happens to the legality when two people crash at an intersection where there were no stop lights? How do you prove fault?

[UnimportantHero]

I vote for chalk!

Put chalk on shinai. It will leave a little puff mark on the bogu and... and... wha... why are you looking at me like that...?

(Sometimes all I can do is make a joke. For what my opinion is worth though, electronic scoring would encourage a certain kinda play that I do not think would be all that helpful for improving kendoka as kendoka.)

[Koban]

For instance, rather than eletronics on the competitors, an electronic score board could show scores clearly and be updated at the press of a button.


They have one in the Nippon Budokan. It too has it's problems, this year at the All Japans, there were a number of problems with it, wrong pictures going up, same people supposedly fighting each other. Was good fun at the time.

But a small machine that clubs could buy for scoreboarding would be good, but you could do that with a laptop and a projector I suppose.

[shred_lord]

I always thought a kind of interactive game should be possible. Footage of actual matches where the shinpan decisions had been edited out. You hit a button and maybe even give a voice response, within a certain time frame. At the end of the match, you find out what the "Hanshi" response would have been and analyse the differences. You'd need good sound and HD video. Ideally projected onto a large screen. Perhaps it could be a Wii game (red and white Wii controllers? :P) Now that is an excellent idea. Even though it's hard to judge ippon from video; I would definitely buy this.

Maybe you could have this shot from a shimpans-eye-view, with the other two shimpan present. This would allow us to call spit decisions also get a feel for how we should move around the court (something most beginner shimpan are also not very good at).

Can anyone say Xbox Kinect? or Nintendo Wii? or PlayStation Move?

[Agricola]

There will be many new light weight touch sensitive soloutions coming out for fencing soon that would easily carry over to kendo. I don't know exactly how many judges you have in kendo but in fencing it's three. One judge stands and makes calls and instructs the fencers whilst two will sit at a desk monitoring the camera feedback with the ability to do slo mo replays. Also there is the electrics which is merely an aid and allows the judge to concentrate on what the fencers are doing rather than what they're hitting.

I find many of the resons given against trying such a method in competition to be flawed, saying it would lower the quality of judges seems at best an assumption. The judges cannot see everything, they are human, why not have two guys seperate watching a camera and they are the only ones that can see when the electronics are activated? How would this harm a kendo competition? It would aid a good judge or perhaps make a bad judge lazy, in that case the good judge will be improved as for the bad judge he was always bad and perhaps he got away with it before when he should of been weeded out?

The argument that Kendo isn't about winning might be true for some but not for others, I'm saying it isn't an absoloute truth because someone even of high rank says so. For some it may be primarly a way of keeping fit, having fun, learning a sword art, a martial art, winning in combat others developing their mind or character. Whatever your primary reason is it is all those things wether you like it or not. Perhaps for some competition and winning is of little importance and different scoring is unimportant to them so why would trying a different method matter? To those who do enjoy the competition side why not support a trial? If it doesn't work keep trying until one that is suitable is found?

Remember modern Sabre (closet to kendo in style) didn't take on electronic scoring until the late 1980's decades after foil and more than 50 years after the first electric epee was used in an Olympics. It isn't like the governing body has to make a snap decision now, I think they should look into the possibilities and try it out if it doesn't help then just drop it and no harm done. If you tried it out in a small closed competition here and there just for the purpose of testing it out then why would it matter? It would make a difference to those that do enter competions (good or bad is to be seen) as they are certainly practising kendo that day for the purpose of victory.


If Kendo isn't about winning ... why keep score?

[ben]

...
If Kendo isn't about winning ... why keep score?

For external feedback. It lets you know whether your technique was effective enough to convince someone else of its effectiveness.

In Japanese there is a concept called en (縁). It has many meanings but in this context it means a "connection". It's why, at the beginning of a match when the shinpan are ready, no-one signals you to step into the shiaijo. You must find en with your opponent and step in together. From that moment there is a connection. The shinpan also need to have en with the shiaisha. It is just the shiaisha and the shinpan. No TV screens. No 3rd umpire. No little man in a pit next to the shiaijo with extra data and the ability to override decisions. So important is the desire for en between shinpan and shiaisha that even though the shinpanshunin and the taikaikaicho are therectically higher on the hierarchy of the competition, they really don't have the power to overrule the shinpan.

All this may just be cultural stuff, but it is the culture of kendo. Just as the desire for technological progress and the right to celebrate loud and flamboyantly is part of the culture of fencing.

b

[rfoxmich]

I'm thinking of a paraphrase of a John Madden quote:

"This shiai has the two things I hate most about kendo carbon shinai and electronic scoring"

(Original quote: "This game as the two things I hate most about football -- artificial turf and a domed stadium")

[rfoxmich]

To keep competitive people practicing until they figure out what kendo is for.



If Kendo isn't about winning ... why keep score?

[FastKendo]

To keep competitive people practicing until they figure out what kendo is for.

then why 8th Dan's taikai also based on the same way of scoring? So far I think winning is a part of Kendo. In other words, Kendo isn't always about winning.

but I'm not sure

[ender84567]

then why 8th Dan's taikai also based on the same way of scoring? So far I think winning is a part of Kendo. In other words, Kendo isn't always about winning.

but I'm not sure

"The purpose of practicing Kendo is:

To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for Improvement in the art of Kendo;
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
Thus will one be able to love his country and society,
To contribue to the development of culture,
And to promote peace and prosperity among all people."

point to the part where it says you are supposed to win taikai? Now winning the party, that clearly is a part of associating with others :-P

[Fudo-Shin]

It is about winning, but in the right way. Tapping or manipulating a sensor is not, in essence, the right way. That's why you need shinpan to discern the differences, what Ben said before really hits the nail on the head also.

[FastKendo]

"The purpose of practicing Kendo is:

To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for Improvement in the art of Kendo;
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
Thus will one be able to love his country and society,
To contribue to the development of culture,
And to promote peace and prosperity among all people."

point to the part where it says you are supposed to win taikai? Now winning the party, that clearly is a part of associating with others :-P

Since to win the taikai (or even having just 1 valid point), one need to mold the mind and body and have a vigorous spirit through correct and rigid training. And to pursue the winning, one have to keep striving for improvement in the art of Kendo and to hold in esteem human courtesy and honor (or his point will be stripped off). Is there anything wrong with that perhaps?

Personally I'm pursuing my own personal development, winning a taikai is not my objective. I often change my mindset (style) once I got better information about "correct kendo" even my performance is decreasing for a while (compared to my fellow newbie) and resulting my loss in a few important matches. But since the taikai is legal, why we tends to reject any idea about improvement of it? And to do it, it's not necessarily to suppress the cultural aspect of kendo. That vibrating flag for example, while it may not a valid solution, I can see it's rejected before even really considered just like another ideas.

Well, please enlight me.

[ender84567]

I could train to win taikai easly, but I would no longer be striving to improve in the art of kendo, My kendo would actually get worse, but I have no doubts I would win more medals. Hell I'm big enough, I could just push everyone out of this shiaijo 4 times and consistently win 3rd place or better.

[MikeW]

I find many of the resons given against trying such a method in competition to be flawed, saying it would lower the quality of judges seems at best an assumption. The judges cannot see everything, they are human, why not have two guys seperate watching a camera and they are the only ones that can see when the electronics are activated? How would this harm a kendo competition? It would aid a good judge or perhaps make a bad judge lazy, in that case the good judge will be improved as for the bad judge he was always bad and perhaps he got away with it before when he should of been weeded out?

The argument that Kendo isn't about winning might be true for some but not for others, I'm saying it isn't an absoloute truth because someone even of high rank says so. For some it may be primarly a way of keeping fit, having fun, learning a sword art, a martial art, winning in combat others developing their mind or character. Whatever your primary reason is it is all those things wether you like it or not. Perhaps for some competition and winning is of little importance and different scoring is unimportant to them so why would trying a different method matter? To those who do enjoy the competition side why not support a trial? If it doesn't work keep trying until one that is suitable is found?

The argument that kendo is not about winning is a basic idea. If you ask Takanabe or Uchimura sensei whether kendo is about winning I wager they would say it is not as important as other aspects of kendo. As I see it there is absolutely no need for electronic scoring. Now, perhaps as a training tool for aspiring shinpan it might have some use, but even there it would have limited use I believe. Those that enjoy competition more than the basic values of kendo should play some sport rather than get involved in budo (IMHO). I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy shiai, it is a measuring gauge you can use to see how you stand against others on any given day. But it is not the core value of kendo. The 3 shinpan on the shiaijo are plenty and video or electronics are not needed at all.

[MikeW]

Ran out of editing time on the last post but I wanted to add...

I would go on to say that if electronics were involved the shinpan would not pay attention to them anyways. There are many times a hit is to the correct area but is missing other aspects of yuko datotsu, likewise if a hit has excellent qualities of yuko datotsu but is slightly off mark it may still be called an ippon. This is the way of kendo. In Uchimura/Takanabe instance for example, say it really did not make clean contact with Uchimura's men. From the aspects of yuko datotsu it had all the other qualities needed for ippon and on top of that if it were a sword fight Takanabe's sword would have severed Uchimura's wrist and still made it to the head. So in effect, all aspects were present, perhaps not perfectly but enough to fulfill the requirements for a valid strike.

[ShinKenshi]

From what's been said here and any other thread talking about the possible use of electronic scoring/sensors for use during taikai, there are two primary arguments against it: it would cause a shift in focus away from development of technique towards only winning taikai and the myriad of difficulties in trying to implement any sort of technology effectively. On the flip side, the arguments in favor of using such technology boil down to improved accuracy of awarded ippon and, in some cases, improvement in the judging abilities of shimpan. Frankly, I don't think people who are entrenched on either side aren't likely to be convinced of the other's position.

While I can see the logic and reasoning behind both sides, I remain against the use of scoring sensors embedded in bogu and shinai due to the logistical issue it presents. The time it would take to get each competitor wired up would compound with each and every match (and would become even worse in the team division), resulting in a much longer block of time needed for each taikai. I'm sure many of us have participated in a taikai or two that ran longer than was originally scheduled and the underlying frustration of trying to keep everything running as efficiently as possible.

I reiterate my earlier point that unless you've tried your hand at being a shimpan, you run the risk of greatly underestimating the challenges that you have to face, especially if you're shushin. You have to constantly watch to see if you need to call wakare, if a competitor is actively setting up their opponent for a point rather than just trying to be faster, and then making a snap decision based on all of that the moment a strike is attempted. If any kind of electronic sensors are integrated into shiai, people will get so caught up with point-grabbing that they'll forget what kendo is all about. It isn't going to stop anyone from trying to create some kind of sensor or alternative scoring system but one is created, it'd have to be easy to swap out from person to person, be unobtrusive as possible, cheap, and reliable.

I think a very good point was made earlier about experience and overall number of taikai one participates in. The more you go to, the more you become aware of what a valid ippon looks and feels like. In Japan, you have a great deal more opportunities to attend and and participate in taikai compared to elsewhere in the world where you only average 3 to 5 a year at best. Mock shiai at your own dojo could help but then you become used to your dojo-mates and learn to recognize what they do, possibly giving you a false sense of being able to accurately judge an ippon.

This isn't something that isn't going to be solved quickly, nor is it something that's going to go away. Best thing we can do, in my limited opinion, is to impartially debate it with well thought out reasons for and against it.

[ender84567]

Expounding on what david said something also not counted by people who have no shinpan experience is things look different inside a shiai jo. Sitting in the bleachers or sidelines it is very easy for me to see whats going on and make calls for points, but when I have been in the shaijo holding flags it becomes much more difficult, Sometimes you are on the wrong side to see the point well, and this is made more difficult by your proximity, also you are not just focused on looking for points, the task loading involved in watching for hansoku and listening for time compounds the difficulty. I was very surprised the first time I had to shinpan (and it was a mock match even) how hard it was to judge a point.

[FastKendo]

I could train to win taikai easly, but I would no longer be striving to improve in the art of kendo, My kendo would actually get worse, but I have no doubts I would win more medals. Hell I'm big enough, I could just push everyone out of this shiaijo 4 times and consistently win 3rd place or better.

Like I said, kendo is not always about taikai, but it clearly a part of kendo. It takes some part of our improvement although may not the major part.
But somehow I doubt we can win by only pushing out our opponent, or anybody successfully did it constantly?


Ran out of editing time on the last post but I wanted to add...

I would go on to say that if electronics were involved the shinpan would not pay attention to them anyways. There are many times a hit is to the correct area but is missing other aspects of yuko datotsu, likewise if a hit has excellent qualities of yuko datotsu but is slightly off mark it may still be called an ippon. This is the way of kendo. In Uchimura/Takanabe instance for example, say it really did not make clean contact with Uchimura's men. From the aspects of yuko datotsu it had all the other qualities needed for ippon and on top of that if it were a sword fight Takanabe's sword would have severed Uchimura's wrist and still made it to the head. So in effect, all aspects were present, perhaps not perfectly but enough to fulfill the requirements for a valid strike.

this is why I'm doubting my own idea, too much effort but small gain. But, we'll never know..

[pgsmith]

But since the taikai is legal, why we tends to reject any idea about improvement of it?
This was the point I tried to make earlier. The only people that tend to believe that any sort of electronic scoring would be an improvement, are those without sufficient understanding of what they're doing to know better. I've not heard anyone with any experience even suggest that any form of electronic scoring would be an improvement of any kind. Perhaps you should be thinking more on how to improve kendo internally rather than from the outside.

[b8amack]

*edit*(nvm)

[hl1978]

This was the point I tried to make earlier. The only people that tend to believe that any sort of electronic scoring would be an improvement, are those without sufficient understanding of what they're doing to know better. I've not heard anyone with any experience even suggest that any form of electronic scoring would be an improvement of any kind. Perhaps you should be thinking more on how to improve kendo internally rather than from the outside.

I've been around the block a while with both point fighting (been judging tournaments for 14 years) and full contact fighting and I would say it depends on the implementation. As I said earlier, if the sky was the limit budget wise, you could design equipment that encouraged proper technique than tippy tappy fighting wether it is kendo or striking. I don't think it is needed to substitute for judging, but as a supplement it could be useful. Like everything else related to martial arts, a lot of people are satisfied with things being "good enough" or traditional, but as an engineer, I am paid to think, "How can we do this better through the application of technology?" Granted that doesn't always mean designing an overly complex system either!

It would make an interesting senior engineering design course project though. I made a wokring speed controlled snowboard, basically a snowboard with a braking system as one of my design projects in school.

[ender84567]

Like I said, kendo is not always about taikai, but it clearly a part of kendo. It takes some part of our improvement although may not the major part.
But somehow I doubt we can win by only pushing out our opponent, or anybody successfully did it constantly?




Sure, I've seen someone who took a third that got there without scoring a single point, he managed to push everyone out of the shiaijo (mudansha) I've also seen a few finals that was decided by shiaijo (though these people were more opportunists than trying it as a consistent technique).

[ender84567]

doubt it, senior engineering projects are poorly concieved and implimented, done with extremely limited budget by people who typically have no real design experience, being guided by professors who have never been outside of academia. If your engineering solution is always adding more technology I wouldn't hire you. If you can make it work in a more simple manner your dtucp goes down, MTBF goes up, and everyone makes more money.

[hl1978]

doubt it, senior engineering projects are poorly concieved and implimented, done with extremely limited budget by people who typically have no real design experience, being guided by professors who have never been outside of academia. If your engineering solution is always adding more technology I wouldn't hire you. If you can make it work in a more simple manner your dtucp goes down, MTBF goes up, and everyone makes more money.

You doubt that it would make an interesting senior design project, or you doubt that a non simple electrical circuit design would work (nor did I indicate an unlimited budget for university students either)? I don't think anyone here is advocating the same solution as what is used in fencing. You will also note in my post that I said that utilizing technology doesn't always mean utilizing an overly complex solution.

I'm not a kid straight of of engineering school....

[FastKendo]

This was the point I tried to make earlier. The only people that tend to believe that any sort of electronic scoring would be an improvement, are those without sufficient understanding of what they're doing to know better. I've not heard anyone with any experience even suggest that any form of electronic scoring would be an improvement of any kind. Perhaps you should be thinking more on how to improve kendo internally rather than from the outside.

Yes that's right, I've never heard any experience suggesting something like this. But I also understand, in the current sentiment, to offer something like this will also seems like "doubting" the ability of Hachidans. Nobody wants to do that. And I think I should be more clear, that improvement is addressed to the taikai aspect only. Thanks for the suggestion anyway.



Sure, I've seen someone who took a third that got there without scoring a single point, he managed to push everyone out of the shiaijo (mudansha) I've also seen a few finals that was decided by shiaijo (though these people were more opportunists than trying it as a consistent technique).

That's interesting. Please put me and him on a match, LOL..
We can consider it as anomaly, and even so, the idea has nothing to do with those push-er. But I understand your point.

[JSchmidt]

I could train to win taikai easly, but I would no longer be striving to improve in the art of kendo, My kendo would actually get worse, but I have no doubts I would win more medals. Hell I'm big enough, I could just push everyone out of this shiaijo 4 times and consistently win 3rd place or better.

Not if the shinpan have any clue what they're doing.
There's very very few shortcuts to winning in shiai and while you can get some short term gain, by practicing pushing/dodging/etc, it will be just that...short term gain, that wont take you very far.
If you want to win, you need to train harder, faster, smarter...and that will undoubtedly improve your kendo in all aspects, not just the shiai portion.
Finally, kendo isn't about winning. Shiai is mainly about winning, but even then, there's still plenty of room for the non-winners to learn and grow from the experience.

[ender84567]

Not if the shinpan have any clue what they're doing.
There's very very few shortcuts to winning in shiai and while you can get some short term gain, by practicing pushing/dodging/etc, it will be just that...short term gain, that wont take you very far.
If you want to win, you need to train harder, faster, smarter...and that will undoubtedly improve your kendo in all aspects, not just the shiai portion.
Finally, kendo isn't about winning. Shiai is mainly about winning, but even then, there's still plenty of room for the non-winners to learn and grow from the experience.

To continue to play devils advocate sure I could, I would have sandbagged and could still be mudansha, much easier to win there, not to mention If i practiced all the bad habits and tricks that can be used in shiai I doubt I would have progressed thru ranks as quickly as i did.

[hyuna]

This was the point I tried to make earlier. The only people that tend to believe that any sort of electronic scoring would be an improvement, are those without sufficient understanding of what they're doing to know better. I've not heard anyone with any experience even suggest that any form of electronic scoring would be an improvement of any kind. Perhaps you should be thinking more on how to improve kendo internally rather than from the outside.
Ok, I'll bite: I think there are situations where an electronic supplement would help scoring accuracy.

There are many times where a miss that should not have scored gets a point. Although electronics would register a lot of false positives, I don't think that a well designed sensor system would register very many false negatives. Therefore, they could probably help keep misses from scoring.

I don't know if there are any stats, but, for example, note that red's kote can be seen by two shimpan, but white's can only be seen by one. One might guess that this gives red an advantage, and a sensor could help negate any such advantage.

Of course, experience helps with the problem, but the reality is that there are many more inexperienced shimpan than experienced ones. So, some aid may give a net improvement in accuracy.

I don't know if it is worth the hassle, though, and even though I can see a benefit, I don't think I support electronics for shiai.

I do think there is a place for electronics in training, but not so much as a judging aid. I think beginners could benefit from getting direct and immediate feedback as to whether or not they hit the datotsu-bui with their datotsu-bu, with correct hasuji, and correct timing and I think electronics could provide that feedback. In that way, it may help small clubs without access to experienced sensei improve their technical skills.

[Winter67uk]

Leaving aside the controversy regarding it's use, electronic scoring seem like an fairly simple engineering problem. I'd be interested to hear from those with some expertise.

Do sensors exist that could collect data relevant to yuko datotsu? If so, are those sensors small enough to be worn by the kendoka or applied to a shinai? Can telemetry from kendoka be transmitted quickly enough to be relevant to the shinpan?

It seems to me that wiring up the scoring areas - men futon, kote futon, either side of the do and the tsuki-dare is fairly trivial. Again, wiring up a shinai to register contact with a scoring area by the mono-uchi is also pretty straight forward. Duration of contact could be easily measured as well.

Some sort of measurement of force is required. The only solution for edged weapons I'm aware of (and this knowledge is 20 years out of date) is the blade deflection sensor in the hilt of a western sabre.

I presume a small battery powered unit worn on the kendoka's back would collect data and transmit it to a base station, like modern Olympic foil and epee fencing.

It doesn't seem like a big deal to develop a system that could accurately measure and report at least some of the aspects of yuko datotsu - or am I missing something?

[ShinKenshi]

It doesn't seem like a big deal to develop a system that could accurately measure and report at least some of the aspects of yuko datotsu - or am I missing something?By and large, yes. Your statement takes care of shinai and target contact but it doesn't address everything else that is required for yuko-datotsu. Can you suggest an electronic method of measuring zanshin or proper form? Take a look at MichaelM's post for a more official and detailed answer (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/23850-Electronic-scoring-what-do-you-think?p=429562&viewfull=1#post429562).

[ShinKenshi]

Ran out of edit time.

The moment you shift focus to only the contact portion of yuko datotsu, younger and newer kenshi will begin to ignore all the other aspects that, in my opinion, are just as important if not more. Like the old song goes, as far as Article 17 is concerned, you can't have one without the other.

[Winter67uk]

By and large, yes. Your statement takes care of shinai and target contact but it doesn't address everything else that is required for yuko-datotsu. Can you suggest an electronic method of measuring zanshin or proper form? Take a look at MichaelM's post for a more official and detailed answer (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/23850-Electronic-scoring-what-do-you-think?p=429562&viewfull=1#post429562).

Thanks David, it was Michael's post that prompted my own. I should have said so in my previous post.

Without wading in on the should we/shouldn't we debate, my question is this: would it be easy to engineer a system to measure the basic physical aspects of yuko datotsu (contact, force, duration, etc.), and allowi the shinpan to focus on spirit, opportunity, posture, zanshin, etc?

[turboyoshi]

my question is this: would it be easy to engineer a system to measure the basic physical aspects of yuko datotsu (contact, force, duration, etc.), and allowi the shinpan to focus on spirit, opportunity, posture, zanshin, etc?

The real problem is, can we engineer such a way that would not produce a high count of false positives? Without that added criteria, you only create a larger burden on the shinpan. Also, Shinkenshi's point still holds, that by only focusing on the physical attributes, you modify the competitor's methodology to a more physical fighting style that does not reflect the essence of what kendo is supposed to be. As a training aid, it might still hold value but for taikai, I see it creating problems rather than solving them.

[Winter67uk]

I don't have a problem with a system that correctly reports the physical elements of the cut, but is ignored by the shinpan because the zanshin (or kiai, or seme, or whatever) isn't correct. In practice, the system output might be available only to shinpan, not kendoka (like FastKendo's vibrating flags in post #6). Indeed, the output might only be available to the senior shinpan for purposes of review after the match.

I'm really thinking about how much effort would be required to prototype a system for testing. Is it a spare-time garage project, or does it need more resources than that?

[b8amack]

Thanks David, it was Michael's post that prompted my own. I should have said so in my previous post.

Without wading in on the should we/shouldn't we debate, my question is this: would it be easy to engineer a system to measure the basic physical aspects of yuko datotsu (contact, force, duration, etc.), and allowi the shinpan to focus on spirit, opportunity, posture, zanshin, etc?

I think no. Unlike in fencing, where all valid targets are fair game to all attacks, kendo has conditional allowances. You can score with the tip of the shinai, but only on the throat protector. The left kote is not a valid target until the arm raises a certain height above the norm (or drops, apparently, if rarely). Only portions of the sword may make valid strikes, but unlike in epee, what these areas are depend on the target area. The head mask is a valid target, but only certain portions of it. Definitely more complex than the wiring system for fencing.

It also seems easy to get those false positives. A deflected or poorly aimed thrust hits the top of the men (a valid target area, but not to thrusts) little flag goes up. Everyone in the audience laughs at how ridiculous that is. The upper part of the sword brushes against the throat protector in an awkward tsuba-zeriai stalemate. Flag goes up. Everyone starts grumbling by now at how shitty the equipment is, never mind distracting.

Fine. You say make it only for the judges, but how does MORE information, much of it contradicting what they are trying to focus on, help them? I can imagine it only making their attention weaker.

And then there's the sound issue. Points are often recognized by sound, to tell the nature of the hit. Does the new equipment change the sound that is made? It seems likely, and that's a serious problem. Does it register these differences in sound, or does it solely set off as a result of pressure?

[b8amack]

To continue to play devils advocate sure I could, I would have sandbagged and could still be mudansha, much easier to win there, not to mention If i practiced all the bad habits and tricks that can be used in shiai I doubt I would have progressed thru ranks as quickly as i did.

This is the biggest problem I have with the NA shiai system. It discourages grading for competitive types who are largely concerned with taikai. Over here, you're either divided by age group (and gender) or not at all (except by gender). I'm in my 30's, so age group pretty much runs the gamut of ranks, and you have no idea whether you'll be facing a godan or a gokyu, in your next match. Which is how it should be. Keeping a mudansha division allows sandbagging, and it's great that you choose not to, but there must be some losers out there who choose not to grade to do better in taikai.

[turboyoshi]

Keeping a mudansha division allows sandbagging, and it's great that you choose not to, but there must be some losers out there who choose not to grade to do better in taikai.

I actually think it would be more difficult to sandbag in the NA arena. We have a smaller pool of kendoka and not so many tournaments. I don't think you'd be anonymous enough to get away with that kind of behavior for very long. And besides, we have so few opportunities to test that we tend to take them whenever we can, assuming we are otherwise eligible to test.

[D'Artagnan]

I think the most important reason for not introducing electronic scoring is the point raised by Neil and Jakob... I.e. the ability to call what points are valid or not isn't really the most important thing to consider. Basically refereeing matches, under the current system is just as important for a Kendoka as partaking in matches... I have never seen a strong Shiai player who does not regularly shinpan... Also, I have never seen a good Shinpan who does not (or did not when they were younger) regularly partake in Shiai...

Basically, whether electronic gadgets etc. will make it easier to tell whether hits make contact or not is not really relevant to anybody... I personally believe that 'winning and losing' plays a huge role in Kendo, and it is extremely important, but introducing electronic equipment will remove the important part of Kendo that is being a Shinpan, and therefore the quality of play will quickly degenerate. At the moment, the only way to be a successful Shiai player (i.e. one who wins alto - particularly in higher-level matches) is to develop good Kendo. You can't win the All Japans/WKC with 'tricks'... But I am sure that would change if the role of Shinpan were to be removed or altered...

[michaelm]

I appreciate the healthy discussion here. This could have easily gone down in flames.

We know that kendo is not stale and is continually evolving. As electronic components continue to shrink, get more advanced, and become more accessible/affordable to the masses these discussions will inevitably arise. Someday, they might even invent a globally accessible forum where people can easily share ideas about kendo...in English no less ;). (Seriously, do you remember how hard/expensive it was to get kendo material not in Japanese even as recent as 10 years ago?)

And to those that think Japanese kendoka have an aversion to technology, just flip through some issues of kendo magazines, there's some pretty interesting studies using cool technology to measure physical aspects of kendo. As an example, look at this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7FTBjwmMIY#t=6m21s) where they examine movement and measure the force of fumikomi. There's also the interesting video shot from inside the men of Sumi sensei with a tiny camera. So it's not like advancements and accessibility of technology can't be used to better understand kendo.

I'm just against using this type of technology in a shiai context even only as an adjunct determinant of who wins and loses. I think electronic scoring will reduce kendo more than enhance it, if only for the reason that kendo is much more than about who wins and loses. Shiai is a part of kendo whether we like it or not, whether we're good at it or not, and to the outside world, it is the most visible part of kendo. So shiai is a key part of how we kendoka are perceived, who it attracts, and how it will grow. The more we make shiai exclusively about winning and losing, the more divorced it will be from the other components of kendo, and the more divided the shiai/anti-shiai camps will get.

I know my opinion is centered on the immeasurable cultural aspects and traditions of kendo including all the rituals of shiai, and I think Ben's wonderfully articulated post (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/23850-Electronic-scoring-what-do-you-think?p=429608&viewfull=1#post429608) about en only touches the tip of the iceberg of how shiai is more than just winning and losing. I am honestly not very successful at shiai in terms of being able to win, but I enjoy it and learn a lot from it regardless. A shimpan's flags will always give me more to reflect on than a beep from and electronic scorekeeper.

I'm often told, "Hitting is the easy part. What you do before and after is more important."

[D'Artagnan]

...sandbagging...

Sorry for the double post, but I just picked up on this... This is an interesting concept, and I have seen a few people try it in the past...

However, without opening a whole new can of worms, I personally believe that this sort of thing isn't really possible... People who avoid gradings (for whatever reason - 'sandbagging', fear of failure etc.) only progress to a certain point, and never progress to a level that is more than just being 'good for a X kyu/dan'... I have seen guys who have practiced for 20 odd years (enough time to acquire 5-6dan) who are still Shodan.... and guess what, they are still doing Shodan Kendo... 2dan at best...So they don't tend to do much better than other good players at Taikai even when the division is split by grade...

Here in Japan, the majority of Taikai for 'normal' people are split either by Age, Grade or both. But you don't tend to see 'sandbagging' because it is simply not possible...

[b8amack]

Sorry for the double post, but I just picked up on this... This is an interesting concept, and I have seen a few people try it in the past...

However, without opening a whole new can of worms, I personally believe that this sort of thing isn't really possible... People who avoid gradings (for whatever reason - 'sandbagging', fear of failure etc.) only progress to a certain point, and never progress to a level that is more than just being 'good for a X kyu/dan'... I have seen guys who have practiced for 20 odd years (enough time to acquire 5-6dan) who are still Shodan.... and guess what, they are still doing Shodan Kendo... 2dan at best...So they don't tend to do much better than other good players at Taikai even when the division is split by grade...

Here in Japan, the majority of Taikai for 'normal' people are split either by Age, Grade or both. But you don't tend to see 'sandbagging' because it is simply not possible...

That's what I'm saying. But in NA you see mudansha divisions, nidan and under yudansha divisions... seems like there'd be a LOT of opportunity to sandbag, there. Probably the people who do it don't even tell themselves they are. Gradings are expensive. They're happy just to do kendo. They're comfortable where they are. And of course those are all true, because the ranked divisions keep beginners comfortable and happy. Although I guess they are good for allowing beginning shinpan a place to cut their teeth.

[b8amack]

(I should add that I have never participated in a North American taikai, and so have no idea what I'm talking about, except for having been in many fencing and tennis tournaments WITH sandbaggers).

[ben]

Sure, I've seen someone who took a third that got there without scoring a single point, he managed to push everyone out of the shiaijo (mudansha) I've also seen a few finals that was decided by shiaijo (though these people were more opportunists than trying it as a consistent technique).


This is a shameful thing for the shiaisha in question, but it is even more a failing of the shinpan who allowed this to happen. I would hope that there was a lot of soul-searching by all the shinpan after this competition, and that the regional federation put training in place to make sure that this situation never happened again. b

[Mick]

Firstly my apologies, didn't mean to start a flame thread....but I suppose I should have known better with this topic!

On the flip side, this has been a fantastic read I have enjoyed it immensely. For what it is worth our dojo had consensus on electronics only going so far as a scoreboard. Basically to let you know who is red/white, ippons, a countdown or count up whatever the case and most importantly who is on next (that can get a bit confusing sometimes).

I will try and avoid future flames but again this discussion has been great!

[ShinKenshi]

Firstly my apologies, didn't mean to start a flame thread....but I suppose I should have known better with this topic!

On the flip side, this has been a fantastic read I have enjoyed it immensely. For what it is worth our dojo had consensus on electronics only going so far as a scoreboard. Basically to let you know who is red/white, ippons, a countdown or count up whatever the case and most importantly who is on next (that can get a bit confusing sometimes).

I will try and avoid future flames but again this discussion has been great!Don't apologize, this hasn't even been moved to the flames section so no need to be sorry. In fact, I'm glad you started this thread because it has provoked a very good, and healthy discussion on the subject and, in some ways surprisingly, it hasn't degenerated into hostility. Sometimes it's worthwhile to ask questions like these because, as long as people behave, you generate a very healthy discussion.

[Winter67uk]

Don't apologize, this hasn't even been moved to the flames section so no need to be sorry. In fact, I'm glad you started this thread because it has provoked a very good, and healthy discussion on the subject and, in some ways surprisingly, it hasn't degenerated into hostility. Sometimes it's worthwhile to ask questions like these because, as long as people behave, you generate a very healthy discussion.
Seconded, rep++ applied. Carry on.

[rfoxmich]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Onischenko

[ender84567]

I don't have a problem with a system that correctly reports the physical elements of the cut, but is ignored by the shinpan because the zanshin (or kiai, or seme, or whatever) isn't correct. In practice, the system output might be available only to shinpan, not kendoka (like FastKendo's vibrating flags in post #6). Indeed, the output might only be available to the senior shinpan for purposes of review after the match.

I'm really thinking about how much effort would be required to prototype a system for testing. Is it a spare-time garage project, or does it need more resources than that?

depends, what is your engineering experience, the main problem I see with this is two fold, number one is requirements definition, thats the main problem with this thread, what exactly is the sensors going to detect? What kind of filtering for false positives? What type of software? Second biggest problem is packaging, you need to provide something ideally wireless, low power consumption high density, and low weight to not affect the current gear. Its fine to do something crazy for a one off, but something actually produce-able should be a goal often overlooked by younger engineers. An engineer can make anything work in the lab/garage. Now will it work with a decent yield in volume production with minimal failures in the field? It is certainly do-able, but development of such a system is not the trivial problem that some of the above posters are making it out to be.

[hyuna]

Dealing with false positives and distractions is very easy -- don't report positives except as confirmation. That is, if the false negative rate is acceptably low, then you use the signal not to take points, but to disallow non-points. There are several ways to implement this in a way that would not require judges to deal with false positives. For example, the flag could be equipped with accelerometers so that it knows when it is raised. If it is raised but no point was detected, the flag gives some indication (vibration), telling the shimpan to put the flag back down. Another (cheaper) possibility is to have the signal displayed on a board that shushin monitors. shushin checks the board after flags go up but before calling the point. A new flag signal could be introduced so shushin can communicate to fukushin that there was no scoring contact. I doubt very much that this would be burdensome.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well putting on my engineering hat - if the only goal of the system is to let shimpan know contact has been made on-target, then there needn't be any sort of equipment in the shinai itself, just pressure-sensitive contacts in the kote, men and tsuki. Doh can be judged sufficiently by sound. This way avoids making people use carbon shinai or wiring up bamboo shinai in some bizarre way.

[ender84567]

is it an add on or an integrated sensor? do you need to get a bogu manufacturer involved to consult? How are you going to provide power to the sensors? What is the MTBF requirement of the sensors? One time use? fielded lifetime of 20 years? What is the pressure threshold for a correct hit? There are huge systems questions involved with this. Even just pressure sensors its a complicated problem. Again I think a one off is easy to do, but a actual workable system is a huge leap. No offense but software guys rarely are able to wrap their heads around hardware design issues, and that's 50% of the reason I have employment. I think implementation is a moot point anyway as any spec would have to be top down, and I doubt anyone at the IKF level would seriously consider going to such a system

[hyuna]

is it an add on or an integrated sensor? do you need to get a bogu manufacturer involved to consult? How are you going to provide power to the sensors? What is the MTBF requirement of the sensors? One time use? fielded lifetime of 20 years? What is the pressure threshold for a correct hit? There are huge systems questions involved with this. Even just pressure sensors its a complicated problem. Again I think a one off is easy to do, but a actual workable system is a huge leap. No offense but software guys rarely are able to wrap their heads around hardware design issues, and that's 50% of the reason I have employment. I think implementation is a moot point anyway as any spec would have to be top down, and I doubt anyone at the IKF level would seriously consider going to such a system
I agree with everything you said. I think there are plenty of reasons not to do electronics. I just don't think that "no value" is not one of them.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No offense but software guys rarely are able to wrap their heads around hardware design issuesI didn't say it would be easy or feasible, just that you reduce the problem significantly by getting rid of the shinai sensors. There's a whole pile of issues we could discuss in addition to the ones you raise. One of the nice things about fencing equipment is how limited it is mechanically. For foil/epee you've just got the button on the end of the weapon - if it fails it's relative easy/cheap to replace. Bogu's a different story - it has to take a beating day in and day out. So you'd probably either want something that added on to the bogu for tournaments (clunky) or have a set just for tournament (expensive) or...

Basically it's a very complicated solution that is (IMO) in search of a problem.

[pgsmith]

Basically it's a very complicated solution that is (IMO) in search of a problem.
Very well put Neil. From a hardware developer's perspective, the current level of technology is insufficient to produce the necessary solution. In essence, people are talking about a pressure sensor that is lightweight, unobtrusive, and robust enough to be beaten repeatedly with a stick without a failure. It is not outside the realm of possibility that the technology for this could actually be developed. However, developing technology is very expensive. If there's no clear cut problem to be solved leading to a good return on the investment, then there's no incentive to develop the new technology. Unless someone can convince the military that this technology will help them! :)

[rfoxmich]

Yes.... Kote squeaky toys. That should do it.


Well putting on my engineering hat - if the only goal of the system is to let shimpan know contact has been made on-target, then there needn't be any sort of equipment in the shinai itself, just pressure-sensitive contacts in the kote, men and tsuki. Doh can be judged sufficiently by sound. This way avoids making people use carbon shinai or wiring up bamboo shinai in some bizarre way.

[rfoxmich]

Offense taken ;-)
Q: How many software guys does it take to change a light bulb? A: None that's a hardware problem.
Q: How many hardware guys does it take to change a light bulb? A: Don't bother, we'll get the software guys code a work-around.




i No offense but software guys rarely are able to wrap their heads around hardware design issues, and that's 50% of the reason I have employment.

[pgsmith]

Yes.... Kote squeaky toys. That should do it.
Outstanding! :D Especially for a software guy!

Unfortunately can't give rep for that.

[Winter67uk]

...a pressure sensor that is lightweight, unobtrusive, and robust enough to be beaten repeatedly with a stick without a failure...

Hmm, good point. I think this rules out duct-taping my iPhone to my right kote for the proof-of-concept. Although I may still use it to do the software.

Joking aside, I'm can accept that the system will do without input from the shinai for now (although I believe it's the easiest component to build, and I bet Neil couldn't tell it from a unwired shinai in the dark.)

So our test system could be one target, let's say men, with associated data collection unit and base station. No need to do the telemetry wirelessly for the first test, that could come later.

For the sensor I was thinking of a three-layer jobby. The bottom layer has a bunch of thin wires running in one direction. The top has the same running at 90 degrees to the bottom. The middle layer insulates top from bottom, except it's becomes conductive under pressure. Preferably the more pressure, the more conductive.

Or is it just a grid of little on/off switches? I don't know. I do know it would have to be flexible a) to wrap around the relevant target and b) to cope with the shinai contact.

Anyway, does this exist? Apart from my iPhone?

[FastKendo]

Anyway, does this exist? Apart from my iPhone?

Well.. NASA may know better. But Japanese reputation to create an applicable technology is also well known, just ask them.
As for the software, since the incoming data is relatively simple, I guess it's only need a few "if-then-else" and calibrated each a few matches depends on its durability.

[Winter67uk]

...As for the software, since the incoming data is relatively simple, I guess it's only need a few "if-then-else"...

Agreed, I think the software is fairly tractable. If my iPhone can recognize finger swipes and other gestures I presume that technology's already mature.

However I like rfoxmich's low-tech air displacement sensor. If it squeaks, it can be measured. Maybe we don't need hundreds of data points to evaluate a given cut.

One problem with the kendo squeeky is that it would run out of breath. Multiple yoko-men cuts during kiri-kaeshi would leave it panting!

What we're really tying to track is a transitory contact patch between shinai and target. There are lot of industries that like to measure contact patches on the fly - golf ball manufacturers, tyre manufacturers and ski manufacturers, for example.

I'll send a few emails around to various corporations over the next few days and post any interesting replies here.

[Winter67uk]

Ahh, here we go:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/109852105/footscan_foot_pressure_analysis_system.html

4 sensors per square cm, 300 Hz scan rate, and a USB interface. And if you can walk on it presumably you can whack it with a stick.

[Winter67uk]

...and a little further searching along the same lines turns up these guys:

http://www.tekscan.com/medical/system-fscan1.html

Not sure about sensors/square cm or scan rate, but they've already worked out the wireless telemetry bit. The "paper thin" sensor element would have to be ruggedized for kendo though (or applied under the men/kote futon?) I presume if the sensor element can be shaped to fit a shoe, it can be shaped to fit the various kendo target areas.

I'll ping 'em an email.

[b8amack]

Ahh, here we go:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/109852105/footscan_foot_pressure_analysis_system.html

4 sensors per square cm, 300 Hz scan rate, and a USB interface. And if you can walk on it presumably you can whack it with a stick.

US $8,000 - 15,000 / Unit

[Winter67uk]

US $8,000 - 15,000 / Unit

I expect the medical supply company is worse. But I wonder if that sensor is proprietary to them or if it can be aquired seperately....

[E-ronin]

I don't like the idea of electronic scorring. I had this discussion with a 70 year old European fencer with over 50 years of fencing and in his opinion it has ruined his sport. He said it removed the style and tradition and has turned it into a game of tag. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Kendo.

[Shinsengumi77]

I don't like the idea of electronic scorring. I had this discussion with a 70 year old European fencer with over 50 years of fencing and in his opinion it has ruined his sport. He said it removed the style and tradition and has turned it into a game of tag. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Kendo.

Considering my experiences with sabre fencing, I agree. Once I talked to an old timer who said the same thing, and his teachers were the people who fenced first blood, and inherited battlefield sabre tactics from the big wars.

On the other hand, when he first saw me in my keikogi and hakama, he scowled and muttered something about me having been tainted by a barbarian's sport. ;) His friend has been doing kendo for many years, I've heard. So maybe he's jealous that all the people who get bored of fencing turn to Kendo. XD

[FastKendo]

I don't like the idea of electronic scorring. I had this discussion with a 70 year old European fencer with over 50 years of fencing and in his opinion it has ruined his sport. He said it removed the style and tradition and has turned it into a game of tag. I would hate to see the same thing happen to Kendo.

Kendo have yuko datotsu, zanshin, etc. Tagging alone is far from getting any point. Based on our latest discussion, we're not trying to replace the shimpans, we're trying to give them more information..


On the other hand, when he first saw me in my keikogi and hakama, he scowled and muttered something about me having been tainted by a barbarian's sport. ;) His friend has been doing kendo for many years, I've heard. So maybe he's jealous that all the people who get bored of fencing turn to Kendo. XD

hahaha.. LOL

[FastKendo]

While the current informations are almost enough for the shimpans, adding this information could lead to a bit better judgement as we intend to.

*but the price is very high :(

[E-ronin]

I once had my best match during a team competition against a very strong fencer in our region, I had a men strike that was not counted by the judges but many people afterwards told me that was a valid point (High ranking Senseis) maybe electronic scoring would have shown it was a point but I don't feel cheated by not getting it. Kendo is so much more than just scoring. Kendo is able to except modern training methods and some advances in materials used for equipment but electronic scoring of any kind could and probably would change it moving further into just being a sport. It might sound cheesy but I love Kendo for what it is and maybe I'm selfish but I don't want it changed at all, in the beginning I always wanted to win but now I don't care. I can tell when I've had a good day win or lose and somewhere along the way I started to understand that fencing is not about the other person at all at a certain level it's about losing your ego and letting go to be able to advance (mushin/no mind). This is what could be lost with any type of fundamental change and I don't mean in the near future because it would not change the people who already have the correct path started for them but that is why I pointed out the discussion I had with the Euro-fencer. It didn't change him but he watched as it changed his sport over the generations. I want to be doing and teaching kendo in my seventies and have the same feeling about it as I do today. A Sensei I know said that Kendo was the most difficult thing in his life how lucky he is to have found it.
Ok that's my totally disjointed and rambling rant, I'm sure that many people would disagree but I would love to see a poll on the subject and have the results broken down via rank. I don't think I truly started to understand and appreciate what Kendo is until I was a little higher in rank and now I feel like I could start learning correctly.
Oh and I'm also to cheap to shell out the extra $$ for electronic bogu lol.

[michaelm]

Here is your electric kendo (Yikes!)

2:48 into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhCYIlwgpEs#t=2m48s

[Winter67uk]

Here is your electric kendo (Yikes!)

2:48 into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhCYIlwgpEs#t=2m48s
Jeez. Maybe Neil would be able to tell the difference in the dark.

[Obukan_dude]

here is your electric kendo (yikes!)

2:48 into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhcyilwgpes#t=2m48s

HOLY FRAK!!!! Cylons are doing kendo!!!!! Noooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Missingno.]

Here is your electric kendo (Yikes!)

2:48 into this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhCYIlwgpEs#t=2m48s

Are you kidding me? That's awesome!

[FastKendo]

Are you kidding me? That's awesome!

I second to that. It's awesome for a clip, and they really do kendo.

[The great I AM]

No really, us martial artists never do anything untoward with electronics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11775465)

[rfoxmich]

We don't need electronic sensors.. We just need a replay official. ;-)

Imagine the following sportscasters...we'll call them Dan and John.

Dan: "Welcome to the 2020 world kendo championship finals ---- of Japan vs +++++ of Korea. What can we expect to see tonighty John?"
John: "Well Dan first of all this match will have the two things I hate most about kendo, carbon shinai and a reply official. While the shinpan on the court will be making the primary calls, they can be overruled if the replay official can find indisputable evidence they've made a mistake. As far as the kendo goes, ---- and +++++ are two kenshi at the height of their careers. Both are very agressive. Expect to see fireworks early on."
Dan: "The competitors have entered the shiajo and the shinpan are about to get this match underway."
Dan: "Oh...that was very nearly a men by ----- but no flags go up"
John: "----- has used his first challenge to ask the replay official for a ruling. Let's have a look at this again"
Dan: "Remember there must be indisputable evidence an ippon occured to overule the ruling on the field"
"John: "The replay official has the same camera angles we have. Thanks to the boys in the booth for getting us this angle which probably shows the clearest views. It's very close but you can see it's not quite in"
Dan: "Let's look at it from this angle... I don't think this can be over turned."
John: "Not as good as the first.."
.... 10 more camera angles are shown with varying discussion every other time the phrase "indisputable evidence to overturn the ruling on the field" is trotted out... about 5 minutes pass including 3 commercial breaks.

Dan: "The replay official has a verdict"
Shushin "After further review, the ruling on the field stands, red did not score an ippon.. hajime"
Dan: "This is a true test of the concentration of the competitors"
John: "You have to wonder if they are going to be able to get back into the flow of the match after such a long review"
Dan: "Oh no...the Japanese competitor is down!!!"
John: "You hate to see this happen at any level"
Dan: "Hopefully he'll be able to continue"
John: "He's still down.. you know I wonder if the long delay played a role in this injury..letting both competitors get cooled down"
Dan: "-----'s being carried off darn you hate to see this"
John: "..at any level.. but especially to win the world championships in this way..has to feel a bit hollow"
Dan "Our thoughts go out to ----- and his family along with our hopes for a speedy recovery."
John: "Well that just about wraps it up. I'm sure this will ignite a store of controversy about the adoption of replay officials"
Dan: "Nonetheless, I do think it's clear that the use of replay officials has had a positive effect on the correctness of calls at all levels of kendo"
John: "We'll have to agree to disagree there."
Dan: "On now to world championship tiddly winks... you can catch all of the plays on tonights edition of Sports-Cellar now back to the Jeff in the studio jef..."

[kanyil]

No really, us martial artists never do anything untoward with electronics (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11775465)

And of course judges are infalliable, all decisions are correct and nothing dodgy ever goes on in the non-electronic world...

[ShinKenshi]

Well, looks like some people in Korea have gone and done it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rITjPCOiFn0) No idea who the two wearing the bogu are but perhaps someone who speaks Korean could provide a translation.

[JSchmidt]

And of course judges are infalliable, all decisions are correct and nothing dodgy ever goes on in the non-electronic world...

In fact, that story was seemingly not because athlete cheated, but that the officials screwed up,

[Missingno.]

Well, looks like some people in Korea have gone and done it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rITjPCOiFn0) No idea who the two wearing the bogu are but perhaps someone who speaks Korean could provide a translation.

Why do they keep kicking each other?

[ShinKenshi]

Why do they keep kicking each other?No idea, I'd like to know that myself.

[rfoxmich]

My TKD contacts tell me that a while back the _word_ came down from on high (Korea) that 'Korean' TKD dojos needed to add Kumdo to their curriculum. This fostered a bunch of weekend kumdo instructor certification seminars...the addition of kicking to TKD-Kumdo is a probably and logical outgrowth of that farce.

Why do they keep kicking each other?

[Kenzan]

Food for thought:

The discussion of adding electronics to scoring seems to be about eliminating ambiguity.
I submit that ambiguity exists as a facet of living, and and Kendo practice also reflects the facets of life,
including ambiguity.

[Anorymous]

Food for thought:

The discussion of adding electronics to scoring seems to be about eliminating ambiguity.
I submit that ambiguity exists as a facet of living, and and Kendo practice also reflects the facets of life,
including ambiguity.

I do believe that this choice is better left to each participant to make. If they do not want the judges to be unsure of their decisions, I say let them.

[Kenzan]

I do believe that this choice is better left to each participant to make. If they do not want the judges to be unsure of their decisions, I say let them.

Which is why before every Shiai, each participant agrees to accept the decision of the judges as final.
It is up to each participant to either accept or not accept those conditions.