To rei or not to rei

[Eldritch Knight]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?

[Will]

We do a third rei, to each other...beginners and senseis.

[stuartwilson]

Sounds like he has an axe to grind. Why don't you suggest that all bow in respect to all the sensei who came before (no matter where they came from), who passed down this art for us to enjoy?

[xvikingx]

Or you could just do what he says, practice kendo, and keep your religion to yourself. Think of the flip side of this coin; what if this guy came to your Japanese dojo and said, "I don't believe in your dojo god, I think I should only bow once".
Just forget about it and try to get some good keiko done.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It depends on what sort of dojo you are. If the dojo is shinto, then there should be a shrine (kamiza) and at the start and end of class you turn to the shrine (kamiza-ni) and rei. But most dojo are secular and just bow to the front (shomen-ni, rei). This bow shows respect to the dojo and for the training, and has nothing to do with ancestors or previous wars or whatever. I suggest you do this one.

[Halcyon]

you may not like it, but he is still your sempai. follow his lead. it's not like you'll be in college forever. once you're out of school, you can find a dojo that's more in line with your preferences.

[Eldritch Knight]

It depends on what sort of dojo you are. If the dojo is shinto, then there should be a shrine (kamiza) and at the start and end of class you turn to the shrine (kamiza-ni) and rei. But most dojo are secular and just bow to the front (shomen-ni, rei). This bow shows respect to the dojo and for the training, and has nothing to do with ancestors or previous wars or whatever. I suggest you do this one.

I like this idea. I think my sensei's still pretty set in his ways, but I'll propose it to him.

you may not like it, but he is still your sempai. follow his lead. it's not like you'll be in college forever. once you're out of school, you can find a dojo that's more in line with your preferences.

I'd be perfectly content with this, but the fact is, he's marketing kumdo as kendo. I know that they're virtually identical in practice, but they're worlds apart in theory and spirit. It seems intrinsically wrong to leave out the bow of respect towards a higher cause (or being) when practicing a Japanese martial art.

[amatsuda]

Perfect timing that this topic came up...I was thinking of starting a new thread on this same topic...Our Dojo's experience is similar but from another perspective....In our case, the Dojo observes Shomen-ni-rei, but there are students who refuse to bow during shomen-ni-rei.

As many of you may know, many Dojos in the United States continue to practice at Buddhist Temples. Many of the Dojos rent the multi-purpose or basketball gymnasium of the Temples/Churches and have no direct connection between the Dojo and the temple. The relationship is analogous to a basketball team renting the same gym to practice.

Within the new influx of beginners there are people who refuse to bow during the shomen ni rei. It appears they have no problem with bowing towards the Sensei(gata) and Otagai ni rei as well as when entering the Dojo. However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons.

When asked why they do not wish to bow, their response is that they are Christian and they feel that by bowing towards the altar, it is a form of worship. I also believe that the reason behind this comes from references to images and idols, and bowing in the Exodus Chapter (Ch.20) of the Bible.

Exodus 20:3 – Thou shall not have [worship] other Gods before me, Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth, and Exoduct 20:5 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me.

About every other class, the Sensei responsible for teaching the class will explain in detail the reasons/purpose for each of the bows the dojo does at the beginning and end of each practice. It is explained to the class that there are three terms that can be used for this rei. Shinzen ni rei – Bow towards the Buddhist Altar 2. Kamiza ni rei – Bow towards the Shinto Shrine, 3. Shomen ni rei – Bow towards the front. Even though there is a Buddhist altar right there, it is explained to them that the dojo chooses to use the secular term, ‘shomen ni rei’.

They are also told that this is the non-religious term that is used and it is not a form of worship but a sign of respect and appreciation towards the Spiritual Center or Front of the Dojo and also to those who have made it possible for us to practice Kendo today; including the Kendo masters of the past, present, and future.

When I am responsible for explaining the rei, I tell them my personal feeling or emotion that goes through my mind and spirit when I perform this bow. I tell them that when I bow, I am expressing my respect and gratitude for the existence of the Dojo, the people who have made it possible (e.g. Family, Kendo Masters, the people who built the facility,temple/dojo, etc.), and the opportunity of being able to practice Kendo itself (i.e. the physical ability to resume Kendo after an auto accident and being carried away in the ambulance, or access to a Dojo as many people do not live near a Dojo, etc.). Even though I am Buddhist, I am positive that the same feeling would apply if I went to practice at a Dojo which practices in a YMCA or a Christian Church and may quite possibly have a Cross on the Wall.

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?

Amatsuda

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[mystic_kendoka]

my dad thought the same too (im korean) that it might be bowing to the emperor or something... but if he is teaching kendo and not kumdo, he should follow kendo-ic traditions... if he has a problem with following kendo and its etiquette and traditions, he should either quit or rename the dojo as a kumdo dojo...

[sminki]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?

Most Koreans will not have a problem with hanging the host-country flag and do a salute to the flag thing. I don't know how your sempai might feel about it if a Japanese flag would be hung, but you could mitigate by hanging all three or just the host country flag. I myself am Korean and Christian so I have problems with bowing to any sort of shrine (let alone a Japanese shrine). In the case of "shomen-ni-rei" at a dojo without a shrine, I'll oblige. As a sidenote, I'll mention that our dojo is a Japanese dojo, but don't do that "shomen-ni-rei" thing. So I don't think it's actually essential to having a true dojo and I don't think I'm the only one.

Better yet, what are you going to do about the sonkyo situation?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?
Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

[LNGUYEN]

I don't know why people having problem with bowing. The Asian thing is the bowing is to show respect, not worship. You bow to the elders, to your teachers, your parents, and that is what I believe the purpose of rei in the dojos. I am a Christian but I don't have problem bowing budha, why? because, to me Budha is not God, but was still great Man once and there is nothing wrong to show respect to great Man. I will bow to any great person in the world as long as he is doing something for the humanity. Many people don't think that way and or don't have enough knowledge to see the different. I saw many Christian people who didn't show some respect in the temple and vice versa, they acted like since they are Christian, Budha is evil and Some Budhist didn't show some respect when they came into the church. Let say, if you are a Christian what do you think if Budha would be in Heaven or Hell? and If you are Budhist, what do you think if Jesus Christ would be in Nirvana or in Hell?

[JSchmidt]

"However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons. "

Bah..when in Rome, etc...
I'm about as strong an atheist as one can be, but I still go follow the traditions whenever visiting a shrine, temple, church, whathaveyou.
It's not a question of beliefs, but a question of basic respect.

Jakob

[sminki]

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

Good point. However, I do think that in certain instances (as I've said, I don't really have problems when it is "shomen" and thus secular) it is more than simple reiho or reigi as a matter of custom and respect and tradition but rather becomes reiho and reigi as a matter of religion. One could make the argument that "hey it's a respect thing" or "hey it's follow the traditions thing" but I have serious reservations against bowing to show respect to some "dojo-god" that I don't believe in and it played a part in my choosing a dojo. Showing respect to the dojo as a place of learning where one should be humble and respectful - totally fine. Additionally, I think this bowing to the dojo gods particularly sets off something in Koreans because they have been forced to pay respects at shinto shrines during Japanese occupation of Korea in early to mid 1900s.

Which brings me to a thought for Eldrich Knight. If you pose this as a matter of paying respect to the dojo and keep it as a secular matter and not bowing to the dojo-kami, your sempai may be more receptive. As I've said, the respect to dojo part is done in Korean dojos by bowing upon entering and leaving. Tell him that it is another form of paying respect to the dojo. If you insist on having a shrine and a dojo-kami, I don't think it'll ever get resolved between you and your sempai.

Then again, why should kendo be associated with a religion anyway (other than the fact that Japan historically has been Buddhist/Shinto therefore kendoka have been Buddhist/Shinto by default)? If it simply is a matter of people practicing kendo being Buddhist/Shinto as opposed to kendo having some deep roots in Buddhism/Shinto, shouldn't this change as kendo has become more global? I realize that this is like asking whether chicken or the egg is first, but hasn't kendo been developed to the extent that it has no direct ties to Buddhism/Shinto? I further realize that kendo probably was influenced by Buddhist/Shinto principles, but are things essential to kendo truly lost just because the concept of a dojo-kami is left out of practice? There are other ways to respect the dojo, the art, the principles, etc. without having to bow to a shine for some made-up god.

Any thoughts?

[James]

...but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo...

As Amatsuda san says this topic seems to be coming up a lot recently - maybe armageddon is approaching?

tonight I had this enquiry:
...A couple more questions - I'm Jewish(Orthodox) and I always wear a headcovering, would that be a problem for the practice?

Also what is the significance of the josegi? If there's the slightest religious significance, I can't acknowledge it by bowing (bowing to sensei/sempai/people training in the same dojo as a form of greeting/respect etc is fine), would that also be a problem?*...

Eldritch I don't think the kami is 'essential to having a true dojo', but I understand that may have been the way you have been taught. I think it is good to acknowledge something else than the people there; the founders of the dojo and those who have been before to make it possible - hey if you are starting a dojo that might be you! Or just the dojo as an entity.

There are lots of dojos that just have a flag etc. for the dojo (rather than a country flag etc.) and do shomen ni rei (that's what we do).

Unless you have a Japanese flag or a kamidana, I think that you could come to some accomodation with your sensei. Otherwise if you are insisting on having a shinto kami being respected; the thing that is 'essential' to a dojo is that they are rarely a democracy, and he is your senior.

Hope you work it out,
James

BTW I told the Jewish guy to come and watch a practice to see a tenegui and men being put on and to decide for himself.

[Kirin]

Perfect timing that this topic came up...I was thinking of starting a new thread on this same topic...Our Dojo's experience is similar but from another perspective....In our case, the Dojo observes Shomen-ni-rei, but there are students who refuse to bow during shomen-ni-rei.

As many of you may know, many Dojos in the United States continue to practice at Buddhist Temples. Many of the Dojos rent the multi-purpose or basketball gymnasium of the Temples/Churches and have no direct connection between the Dojo and the temple. The relationship is analogous to a basketball team renting the same gym to practice.

Within the new influx of beginners there are people who refuse to bow during the shomen ni rei. It appears they have no problem with bowing towards the Sensei(gata) and Otagai ni rei as well as when entering the Dojo. However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons.

When asked why they do not wish to bow, their response is that they are Christian and they feel that by bowing towards the altar, it is a form of worship. I also believe that the reason behind this comes from references to images and idols, and bowing in the Exodus Chapter (Ch.20) of the Bible.

Exodus 20:3 – Thou shall not have [worship] other Gods before me, Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth, and Exoduct 20:5 - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me.

About every other class, the Sensei responsible for teaching the class will explain in detail the reasons/purpose for each of the bows the dojo does at the beginning and end of each practice. It is explained to the class that there are three terms that can be used for this rei. Shinzen ni rei – Bow towards the Buddhist Altar 2. Kamiza ni rei – Bow towards the Shinto Shrine, 3. Shomen ni rei – Bow towards the front. Even though there is a Buddhist altar right there, it is explained to them that the dojo chooses to use the secular term, ‘shomen ni rei’.

They are also told that this is the non-religious term that is used and it is not a form of worship but a sign of respect and appreciation towards the Spiritual Center or Front of the Dojo and also to those who have made it possible for us to practice Kendo today; including the Kendo masters of the past, present, and future.

When I am responsible for explaining the rei, I tell them my personal feeling or emotion that goes through my mind and spirit when I perform this bow. I tell them that when I bow, I am expressing my respect and gratitude for the existence of the Dojo, the people who have made it possible (e.g. Family, Kendo Masters, the people who built the facility,temple/dojo, etc.), and the opportunity of being able to practice Kendo itself (i.e. the physical ability to resume Kendo after an auto accident and being carried away in the ambulance, or access to a Dojo as many people do not live near a Dojo, etc.). Even though I am Buddhist, I am positive that the same feeling would apply if I went to practice at a Dojo which practices in a YMCA or a Christian Church and may quite possibly have a Cross on the Wall.

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?

Amatsuda

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

We used to do "kamiza ni mukatte rei" or "shinzen ni ......"
...and this issue came up.
Along with senseis and some senior members we decided to to "shomen ni rei"

Those who refused to do rei, 3 korean members, now they accept this method. FYI, those guys were refusing 'cause of christian reason, not histolical thingie.... at least thats what they said.......

[Chopstix]

This issue has crept up in other martial arts like aikido for example. I'm under the impression that dojos outside japan tend to be secular in the sense that we rei in acknowledgment of the spirit of the training hall, founders, the Way etc. It makes sense to adopt shomen-ni rei in such dojos not only because it resolves any religious differences but also because it's logical. Personally I rei in respect of the Way (amongst other things). As an example, the front of many aikido dojos has "Ai-Ki-Do" i.e. "Way of Harmony" in caligraphy on the wall.

In my dojo, my sempai says shinzen-ni rei, and I've already seen one beginner refusing to bow at that time.

[Chook]

We're users of shomen-ni-rei. We're taught that it's, very simply put, a bow to the dojo for letting us train there.

[Khabbi]

Batman ,, umm I mean Jakob is right " when in Rome" .

If you cant follow the "rules" then why dont you quit ? . Today it seems that you have to make everyone happy , Its not the dojo that has to change its you , and if you dont like it ,quit .

"I dont bow , i dont like japanes ppl , I wont abey your rules , i dont care , now change everything in the dojo so i can start kendo"

get a grip ppl ! geeeeez

[jfluh9]

We bow three times at the beginning and end of practice.

1. to sensei
2. to shinzen (ssensei says that you can bow to your god that you beleive in or just bow for the sake of bowing. He lets us know that it is whatever we want it to be)
3. To each other.

[samurai999]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?

I don't believe that it is towards a "Japanese God" but rather to give respect to all the "old warriors" who fought and practiced before us and to the other gods who protect the dojo and it's practicioners.

The war atrocities thing IMHO is out of context. I'm pretty sure that Japan committed atrocities in Korea, China and other Asian countries but when bowing to shomen or shinzen, I thought it was to the same god. I think the only difference is that Korea is heavy into Catholicism than Buddhism compared to Japan and I think that this would play a bigger role.

Also, there are some Muslims that practice with us and they bow to shomen. I would think that they would reject bowing to "shinzen" the most since if they do bow to the Buddhist God (and therefore bow away from the Muslim Holy Land), they would be disrespecting Allah. I have not seen anybody (yet) refuse to bow to shomen due to religious reasons.

My 0.02$ US for whatever it is worth.
Tim

[Hattori Hanzo]

We generally bow when coming on and off of the wood(dojo floor)

[Kendo ISB]

We bow to the shomen, sensei. at the beginning, of course after practice we also bow....

[amatsuda]

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

Neil, you have practiced at our Dojo before and you have seen the dojo and altar so you probably understand the situation the best. This issue appears that we are not the only Dojo experiencing the same thing.

I myself am Korean and Christian so I have problems with bowing to any sort of shrine (let alone a Japanese shrine). In the case of "shomen-ni-rei" at a dojo without a shrine, I'll oblige. As a sidenote, I'll mention that our dojo is a Japanese dojo, but don't do that "shomen-ni-rei" thing. So I don't think it's actually essential to having a true dojo and I don't think I'm the only one.

SMinki...You mentioned in a follow up post regarding the reluctance to bow due to nationality and occurrances during the Japanese occupation...However, Could you elaborate a little more on the reasons for your reluctance to bow because you are Christian? Is it related to the example I mentioned before?

Also, you mentioned that if "Shomen-ni-rei" is observed in a dojo without a altar/shrine you will oblige....Does this mean that your feeling is different when bowing or not bowing? Would your feeling be different if the practice was held in a Christian Church or if there was a Cross at the front?

Please don't get me wrong..I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything...nor am I making any judment on your reasons....

I am searching for honest feedback from a Christian perspective...

Thanks in advance...

amatsuda

[Andoru]

Even if there's a shinto/buddhist kamizen at the front, as a christian I would STILL take it to mean that I rei in respect of the spirit of the dojo, way of the sword etc rather than bowing in respect of a "foreign" deity.

[sminki]

SMinki...You mentioned in a follow up post regarding the reluctance to bow due to nationality and occurrances during the Japanese occupation...However, Could you elaborate a little more on the reasons for your reluctance to bow because you are Christian? Is it related to the example I mentioned before?
Also, you mentioned that if "Shomen-ni-rei" is observed in a dojo without a altar/shrine you will oblige....Does this mean that your feeling is different when bowing or not bowing? Would your feeling be different if the practice was held in a Christian Church or if there was a Cross at the front?
Please don't get me wrong..I'm not trying to put you on the spot or anything...nor am I making any judment on your reasons....
I am searching for honest feedback from a Christian perspective...
Thanks in advance...
amatsuda

Hi Matsuda sensei. (Seems that I got myself in a quite a situation here. A discussion on rei with a sensei (on top of which) who belongs to the same dojo as President Tanaka himself... Please don't kick me out of the federation or anything. :ko: )

Let me first off start by saying that I'm not a blindly anti-Japanese person nor am I caught up in the past. I just stand very much against for what happened during the occupation and in a way kendo was used to stir up support for the religious/imperialistic government during those days. I somehow feel like having a altar/shrine is a remnance of those days. Although I'm fairly certain that shinzen and dojo kami predate early to mid 1900s, it is a feeling that I'll continue to have for some reason. I think its also the fact that Koreans were forced to bow to zinzya during the occupation (and they were forced, despite what Ishihara Shintaro, the governor of Tokyo says).

Now, the Christian question. Obviously many people have expressed many different views. I am no great theologian but only have my own personal views which may not be completely logical to others. Anyways, here goes. Generally speaking, my reasons against bowing to an altar/shrine does go back to the passage from the Old Testament of the Bible that you had cited. An altar/shrine suggests a "presence" of spiritual/religious being and I would not bow to it. Having said that, having been raised in a traditional Korean family, I do have a keen understanding/sense of respect and rei. I realize that by refusing to bow the shinzen/kamiza at a particular dojo, I would be disrespecting the traditions of the dojo would thus feel very uncomfortable. To me, this issue goes away when it becomes "shomen-ni rei". By this, I can show respect to the dojo, dojo traditions and the general spirituality/philosophy/history/honor/integrity/teachings/sweat/diligence/the 道, etc. of the dojo without compromising my religious beliefs by having to bow to, or to recognize a spiritual being other than the God in which I believe. I believe that actions with possible religious implications should be left up to individual practitioners of kendo, rather than being mandated by the dojo in any way. I guess that goes onto say that I would feel it just as inappropriate if kendo was practiced in a Christian church with a cross and all practitioners were asked to bow/kneel to the cross. Obviously, the issue has more to do with doing something with potential religious implications rather than a simple issue of venue/location. I would not be against practicing kendo at a Buddhist temple as a simple matter of location if I would not be obligated to bow to shinzen. But what if kendo is practice in a Buddhist temple, I don't have to bow to shinzen but am expected to bow upon entering the training hall? What kind of bowing is that? I'm sure you see how it can turn into a matter of semantics and get very technical and I recognize the fact that this issue is a very personal matter. Of course, various personal beliefs can clash in a group/dojo environment and that's where it gets difficult.

Fortunately, I have not had direct confrontation with this issue since neither the dojo that I belong to nor the dojos I visit have shinzen/kamiza. As I've said, I would feel extremely uncomfortable (to the extent that I would resort to not going at all) by visiting/going to a dojo and refusing to follow the traditions there. I also understand Neil's bit about "If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway." But it is my personal belief that kendo should not alienate students by imposing potential religious actions on the part of the students. There are other ways to learn and show rei and respect to the sensei, dojo, other students, history and the art itself without having to bow to a symbol of deity/religion.

Anyway, (if you've actually made it thus far) thanks for reading my long-winded explanation of my views. Hope that provides a good overview of at least an individual Christian view.

[amatsuda]

Anyway, (if you've actually made it thus far) thanks for reading my long-winded explanation of my views. Hope that provides a good overview of at least an individual Christian view.

SMinki San - Thank you for your response. It was very informative and gave me greater insight into this issue. Hopefully it will allow us to make a judicious decision of how our Dojo will handle this matter in the future.

amatsuda
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[Musha]

Sorry to say this people. But I think you are talking a hole load of Crap :D.
If you went to say, the Olympics would you stay seated wile another countries national anthem was being played?

Rei means respect and when you join Kendo you must respect your Sensei, Respect the Senpai (All members of Higher rank) and respect Kohai (People of lower rank). You must also respect the Dojyo and all things that have enabled you to do Kendo in the past and present. When I did Aikido we had to Rei to the Founder. Sorry I forgot his name right now :D.

Japan is based on Shinto that is like Paganism respecting the land we live in. Animals and plants that help us to live. If you like Miyazaki you might understand about this...
Buddhism is more spiritual like Christianity with the Buddha a human that became enlightened.

Shinto has literally 10000s of gods for every thing you can ever think of and this includes the god of the Dojyo where we all practice. When we bow we are not giving out selves to the gods. But thanking them for letting us practice in there Dojyo.

I think the Korean's do not want to bow because some people believe that Korean kendo is not related to Japan so they do not need to thank them.

People bow to each other in Japan to give respect. If you do not respect Kendo I don't think that you should do it at all!!. I think not bowing is like coming in to a Dojyo with dirty and smelly clothes and Tenugui. Arguing with the Sensei and laughing at Kohai. when I went to Japan one of the Dans hit a boy with a shinai because his Tenugui was not clean.

Maybe that is what some people need lol :D.

[Dan Shea]

As a buddhist and as someone raised Roman-Catholic I would have to say that bowing or kneeling is merely a sign of respect.

I still genuflect when entering and leaving a Catholic Church despite the fact I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I don't feel it makes me any less a student and follower of buddhism.

If someone is so strongly opposed to performing the traditional practices of the country and people who founded the way they are studying, I highly recommend they reconsider their viewpoint of the situation, not to mention the questions this raises about how secure they are in their faith with whatever deity or gods they may deem to worship or believe in.

The word god is a poor choice when used in conjunction with buddhism or shintoism and puts a very Western interpretation things. To try and define kami in English is the essence of futililty. Kami is kami. To use the term god in place of kami is pointless, you lose the meaning of kami and replace it with god.

I'd say if bowing to the kamiza at your dojo makes you feel uncomfortable you can always take up western style fencing. Kendo is and shall always be uniquely Japanese in its origin and in its philosophy. This does not mean only those who are buddhist or shinto or Japanese can practice Kendo, but it does mean that one who does get the privilege of study should be respectful of its origins and its unique culture.

If you can not accept Japanese cultural tradition and its place in kendo you can not accept kendo. You're only seeing what you want to see and obscuring your view from the rest of the picture.

It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do about cultural respect. Ask any student of the way or read any writings by those who have studied before us and the answers all point to understanding zen to understand the way. To remove this element from your studies severely limits yourself and there is no logical reason to do so.

I apologize if I sound harsh or rude in my response, but the last thing I want to see happen is all of the traditions and elements of kendo that make it kendo be removed to appease a vocal minority.

I wish everyone here the best of luck in their studies and apologize if my words are misconstrued or taken in any way as affronts on anyone here, whatever their religion may be.

[LNGUYEN]

The thing I don't understand is if people don't bow to the Japanese Kami because it reminded them of the occupation, then European should follow and respect Catholics because the Nazis were Catholics. However, I didn't see that is the problem at all. How can people regconize that there are only good religions and people make them look bad but refuse to understand that Japanese Shinto is one of the good religion and only people made it look bad. To Rei is to give respect toward goods, not neccesary include bad segment.

[sminki]

Wow, I've never inspired so many passionate responses before. I guess I'm in a hot topic. Thanks for your inputs.

I feel that I've made a clear distinction between what I consider to be an issue of religious/spiritual (for the lack of better word) matter and an issue of respect/rei. I've had a solid family upbringing in a society based on Confucian (and to an extent, Buddhist) principles, the principles on which the east Asian concept of "rei" was formed. I don't think anyone can preach to me about "rei". Do you guys know ray? Do you? :-)

This is obviously a personal issue and my views will not likely change, but let me at least respond to people's feedback.

"It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do about cultural respect. Ask any student of the way or read any writings by those who have studied before us and the answers all point to understanding zen to understand the way." - It has everything to do with religion. What do you think the concept of zen is based on? Certainly not cultural respect. It is strongly enrooted in Buddhism, which, seems to me, you to call the "way". I will say there's a very fine line here and many different thoughts can coexist as Buddhism leaves a lot of room for personal efforts as opposed to an absolutely "faith-based" religion like Christianity. If you contend that Buddhism is a cultural system rather than a religion, what you say might make sense. But the way you call it the "way", makes it sound more like a religion as opposed to "cultural repect".

"The thing I don't understand is if people don't bow to the Japanese Kami because it reminded them of the occupation, then European should follow and respect Catholics because the Nazis were Catholics. " - I don't think the Jewish people have a particularly high esteem for Christianity. Also, Catholic principles were not used to further Nazi principles. I believe that Shinto and Japanese Imperialism were more closely linked. Nobody under the Nazis were forced to worship/believe in Catholicism/Christianity. People in Korea and to a lesser extent, China were forced to worship shintoism, the Japanese gods and the emperor (天皇 or tennou - note the word 天, it's there for a reason - to validate the universal/god-given authority of the emperor). If someone can prove me wrong and correct me, please do so.

"the last thing I want to see happen is all of the traditions and elements of kendo that make it kendo be removed to appease a vocal minority." - Why can't people do "shomen-ni-rei" (which I have no problems with) and be kept secular while preserving the traditional element? Also, bowing to a shinzen/kamiza (those two things in particular, note that I am not ruling out showing respect to the dojo here) is a fragment of kendo training. Let's not blow things out of proportion. Respect and rei and other kendo principles like futoshin or zanshin or heijoshin, shi-ki, etc. (which may or may not have roots in Shintoism or Buddhism) is an essential element of kendo. Practicing a religion (whether it's shinto, Buddhism or whatever) or performing actions with potential religious implications, is not. I very much agree that the traditional elements of kendo should be preserved and passed on. I just don't think shinzen and kamiza, in particular, are requisites.

"Sorry to say this people. But I think you are talking a hole load of Crap .
If you went to say, the Olympics would you stay seated wile another countries national anthem was being played?" - Once again, respect and religion are two different things. I have stood during Japanese anthem at tournaments before, so the "you're just a nationalistic Korean who does not want to show respect to anything Japanese" argument does not work here. I might add that I am a Korean who learn from a Japanese teacher. I have the highest regard for my sensei and am very fond of him. Some of my best freinds are Japanese and I have even visited and shared substantial time with my friends and their families. So the "you're just a stubborn Korean" argument is automatically thrown out. Standing during an anthem - issue of respect. Bowing to a shinzen/kamiza, to me, seems to have lot more religious implications.

"As a buddhist and as someone raised Roman-Catholic I would have to say that bowing or kneeling is merely a sign of respect. I still genuflect when entering and leaving a Catholic Church despite the fact I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I don't feel it makes me any less a student and follower of buddhism." - As someone who have been raised Roman-Catholic, you should know that bowing/kneeling (particularly to objects) can be (and have been) construed as a sign of worship. You should also know that Christianity is much more strict than Buddhism in this particular respct. While the fact that you genuflect upon entering a Catholic church does not violate the principles of Buddhism, it may not/does not work the same way the other way around.

"I'd say if bowing to the kamiza at your dojo makes you feel uncomfortable you can always take up western style fencing. Kendo is and shall always be uniquely Japanese in its origin and in its philosophy. This does not mean only those who are buddhist or shinto or Japanese can practice Kendo, but it does mean that one who does get the privilege of study should be respectful of its origins and its unique culture.
If you can not accept Japanese cultural tradition and its place in kendo you can not accept kendo. You're only seeing what you want to see and obscuring your view from the rest of the picture." - As I've said, my teacher (for whatever reason) does not do "shinzen/kamiza/shomen-ni-rei". Do you DARE say that he (and the entire student body under him including some who have been diligently practicing kendo for more than 25 years) then is not respecting the Japanese culture and origins of kendo and that he (and the students) is leaving out an essential part of kendo in his teachings? I certainly don't think so nor do I think anyone can dare accuse him as such.

I think my bottom-line arguments are pretty clear. Paying respect to the dojo and the philosophical/spiritual aspect (within a personal context as opposed to a religious context) of kendo - ESSENTIAL. Paying respect to a shinzen/kamiza and potentially acknowledging a spiritual/god-like being - NOT ESSENTIAL to kendo.

You guys can jump on my back all you want. Don't get me wrong, I respect your individual opinions and I'm not trying to convince you otherwise (despite the fact that I stand by what I believe). I am simply expressing my own personal views which, IMHO, neither degrades/disrespects kendo or Japanese culture in any way. No one who knows me has ever accused me of such offense to date. Matsuda sensei has shown the grace of saying (and I thank him for showing such grace and openness befitting a kodansha) "hey, I hear ya." He may or may not agree with me, but he certainly didn't dismiss my repect for kendo automatically or call it a "load of crap" or say "you can always take up western style fencing".

I have stated that this is a very personal issue and will remain so. I have also stated that this can be a matter of semantics and nuances. I admit that there is a clash of culture in that while I bow to my sensei, other students, my elders, etc. on a daily basis as a sign of respect without thinking about the implications of worship, I have to worry about implications of worship in bowing to shinzen/kamiza. Why do I leave out bowing to shomen? Because to me it's secular. I admit that my logic may not make sense to some people in that in both cases, I'm bowing to an object/space but one has religious implications and the other does not. I can only say that it makes sense to me because shinzen/kamiza employ the word "神" and shomen does not. Hey, we all have to make our personal choices.

[jfluh9]

What a complex topic we have on our hands here. Well i remember the first time that i took a kendo class and my sensei told all of us that when we bow to shinzen, we are bowing to whatever we believe in (whether it be a god, an ancestor or shinzen itself). So it does have a religous worship aspect to me, but i am bowing to my God. There should be no problems with this. You should bow to what you believe in spiritually, and nobody should ever force you to bow to something that you dont believe in. Thats my $.02

Sorry if nobody agrees with me. Youre keeping the traditional aspects of kendo and using your own personal interpretation. :wink:

[Dan Shea]

"It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do about cultural respect. Ask any student of the way or read any writings by those who have studied before us and the answers all point to understanding zen to understand the way." - It has everything to do with religion. What do you think the concept of zen is based on? Certainly not cultural respect. It is strongly enrooted in Buddhism, which, seems to me, you to call the "way". I will say there's a very fine line here and many different thoughts can coexist as Buddhism leaves a lot of room for personal efforts as opposed to an absolutely "faith-based" religion like Christianity. If you contend that Buddhism is a cultural system rather than a religion, what you say might make sense. But the way you call it the "way", makes it sound more like a religion as opposed to "cultural repect".

sminki, this is where you are not "getting it" in my opinion. Buddhism is not a religion in the Western sense of Religion. It is closer to a philosphy, as is zen (a sect of buddhism) than an actual religion. Whether you ackowledge this or not is a personal preference and I would not fault you for your choice either way. But I do feel that to claim it is a religion in the western sense is incorrect.
But that is a theological issue and a philosophical one and to debate it is moot since I doubt we'd ever come to a meaningful conclusion.

"the last thing I want to see happen is all of the traditions and elements of kendo that make it kendo be removed to appease a vocal minority." - Why can't people do "shomen-ni-rei" (which I have no problems with) and be kept secular while preserving the traditional element? Also, bowing to a shinzen/kamiza (those two things in particular, note that I am not ruling out showing respect to the dojo here) is a fragment of kendo training. Let's not blow things out of proportion. Respect and rei and other kendo principles like futoshin or zanshin or heijoshin, shi-ki, etc. (which may or may not have roots in Shintoism or Buddhism) is an essential element of kendo. Practicing a religion (whether it's shinto, Buddhism or whatever) or performing actions with potential religious implications, is not. I very much agree that the traditional elements of kendo should be preserved and passed on. I just don't think shinzen and kamiza, in particular, are requisites.

Kendo is uniquely Japanese. To remove the shinto element is to remove a unique aspect of kendo. This is my opinion, you are welcome to your opinion as well. However, your logical argument follows that we should remove zanshin and mushin as well then, since they are in fact elements of zen and zen is a form of buddhism. That would have just changed kendo. So I must respectfully disagree with your interpretation, since zen is inherently tied to Kendo that we can somehow make it secular, I think you are wrong in this respect.

"As a buddhist and as someone raised Roman-Catholic I would have to say that bowing or kneeling is merely a sign of respect. I still genuflect when entering and leaving a Catholic Church despite the fact I am no longer a practicing Catholic. I don't feel it makes me any less a student and follower of buddhism." - As someone who have been raised Roman-Catholic, you should know that bowing/kneeling (particularly to objects) can be (and have been) construed as a sign of worship. You should also know that Christianity is much more strict than Buddhism in this particular respct. While the fact that you genuflect upon entering a Catholic church does not violate the principles of Buddhism, it may not/does not work the same way the other way around.

Bowing and kneeling can be construed to be worship, they can also be construed as a sign of respect. I respect other people's gods even if I do not believe in them. So I genuflect, or bow, or do whatever the custom is of that religion when in their house or place of worship. That doesn't make me Catholic, or Hindu or Jewish or etc. Having been raised as a Catholic, I also understand that bowing before a statue of a boddihistava does not violate Catholic/Christian rule because the intent of worship is not in one's heart. You seem to think action without intent makes something so, think of how that relates to kendo for a moment...if you make a cut with no intent is it a cut? I'd say no. So bowing with the intent of respect is not worship and therefore you have not violated any 'rule' of your religion.

"I'd say if bowing to the kamiza at your dojo makes you feel uncomfortable you can always take up western style fencing. Kendo is and shall always be uniquely Japanese in its origin and in its philosophy. This does not mean only those who are buddhist or shinto or Japanese can practice Kendo, but it does mean that one who does get the privilege of study should be respectful of its origins and its unique culture.
If you can not accept Japanese cultural tradition and its place in kendo you can not accept kendo. You're only seeing what you want to see and obscuring your view from the rest of the picture." - As I've said, my teacher (for whatever reason) does not do "shinzen/kamiza/shomen-ni-rei". Do you DARE say that he (and the entire student body under him including some who have been diligently practicing kendo for more than 25 years) then is not respecting the Japanese culture and origins of kendo and that he (and the students) is leaving out an essential part of kendo in his teachings? I certainly don't think so nor do I think anyone can dare accuse him as such.

I'm not saying anything, you are. :)
I am however trying to make the point that by removing this you have removed a vital element of kendo and so you are in fact misrepresenting kendo which may or may not be construed by people as a sign of disrespect. So, maybe I do DARE to say such things, maybe I do not, depends on the individual and their feelings. :beard: This is the entire point I am trying to make.

Religion is tied so closely to everything the Japanese do, from chanoyu to kendo to ikebana. To remove the shinto element is to remove the heart and soul of the thing. I'd ask you to take some introspection upon yourself and your faith and ask yourself if you honestly think bowing out of respect constitutes worship, regardless if it is a kamiza or a statue of christ.

I bow down to tie my shoes, but the intent is not to worship my sneaker, it is to tie it. I bow to my in laws out of respect, not worship.

Kendo has religion in its roots and just because that religion is not yours does not mean you can't practice it. But to remove that religious history because you feel unconfortable about it is not to practice kendo. You are now practicing something completely different.

That is my opinion and I respect your views on the subject although I strongly disagree with the idea of a secular kendo dojo. Shinto and Zen is deeply imbedded in kendo it can not and should not be removed.

I hope you don't feel like I am somehow "jumping on your back."
That is sincerely not my attempt at all.
I just thought this would be an interesting discourse to have since I think Kendo has survived mass marketization and the secularity that has occurred in karate and so many other arts.

I also find it ironic in the US that when it comes to separation of church and state issues the Christian majority wants God in everything, but if it is another religion involved in the issue they fall back on separation of church and state. :)

I'm not saying you fall into that category at all, so please don't take that as an insult as it is NOT directed at you in any way. Just one man's observation having grown up here and living in the predominantly Christian Mid-West.

Have a good day and may all you men strike true. :)

[sminki]

Dan,

You and I seem to agree on one thing, which is that we will not come to a meaningful conclusion here. To a certain extent, we are talking past each other here in that you don't seem to "get" the intricacies of some of my points while I don't seem to "get" some of the things you say. While I'm getting pretty tired of typing and typing and typing, I will reiterate one thing, which is that I don't think all the traditional elements should be removed. There are, as you say, things in kendo which have distinct and almost inseparable ties to shinto and/or Buddhism. By suggesting that we make kendo "secular" I don't mean to remove those things at all. In fact, my posts have made it abundantly clear that these things should remain in kendo, and rightfully so as these have become not only a product of shinto/Buddhism, but also as a product of kendo. The question of a local/household god is another matter altogether.

Like I said, we all have to make personal choices.

I've taken the liberty of looking at your profile. You're 27. I'm 30. We're pretty much in the same age basket. I figure you couldn't have been exposed to kendo or Asian philosophy any longer than I while I don't pretend to know more about Buddhism or the shinto religion any more than I do. I do point this out though. One of the beauties of eastern religions such as Buddhism is that it embraces change. Every journey is different and as the world and the nature changes, people and philosophy change along with it. I do believe that kendo should also be the same so long as the essense of it remains. Kendo has truly become a global art and I believe that it should be able to accept certain new things. You seem to believe that removing shinzen/kamiza from a dojo means removing the essense of kendo. I just don't believe that it's true as removing shinzen/kamiza from a dojo does not mean removal of the ideals of kendo. As you already know, there is a difference between rei and religion.

I leave you with the following excerpt from the writings of 奥川金十郎 sensei. Kendo hanshi 8 dan, Iaido 8 dan. "民主的で明るい剣道を目指す。封建的な発想をやめる。" I think such enlightened, open-minded statement by a kodansha shows the path that all kenshi and kendo should be on.

[Dan Shea]

sminki, I agree wholeheartedly. While we are not going to ever reach a meaningful conclusion I do appreciate the ability to have this discourse with you. When you speak to others of differing views, you either reinforce previously held beliefs or see another view that changes your perception of the idea in some way. I think this discussion has done both for me and I thank you for that. :)

I do not claim to even remotely understand much of anything anymore.
The more I learn the more I know that I truly I know nothing. :)

I do still believe and think that the removal of the kamiza is detrimental, but that is me. I respect your opinion and I wish you the best in your journey along the way. My views might be somewhat antiquated to many in our modern society in some respects, but I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and think that we have both benefitted from it.

I wish you all the best and look forward to speaking on other topics with you in the future.

P.S. - I enjoyed that quote, it reminds of the things that make kendoka a particularly shining example of the things that are good in this world.

[sminki]

Dan,

Thanks. I enjoyed our discussion as well. Hope we can share some thoughts after a keiko someday. If you're ever in NY and can come to practice, let me know. I'll holler next time I'll have an opportunity to practice kendo in Chicago. I too wish you all the best and look forward to sharing thoughts in the future!

[Sith013]

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

I completely agree here, I think that people need to get past the politics and get back to where the art came from. If you have such strong issues with the Japanese then why would you do a japanese art and why instruct in it if you are not going to give your students the complete experience, that to me just does not make sense.
This is of course my own personal opinion and i do not mean to offend.

[Hyaku]

I'm in the middle of starting a kendo club at my college, and am having a slight disagreement with the sensei (he's a a 3rd dan, Korean; I'm shodan and trained in Japan). I'm used to bowing twice prior to each class: once to the dojo-kami (the Shinto god protecting the dojo) and once to the sensei. However, my sensei has decided to omit the bow to the kami for our club, saying that it is actually to the Japanese ancestors, and thus to war criminals who commited atrocities against Korea. I know that this is a touchy subject, and thus decided to let it rest for now, but I feel that the kami is essential to having a true dojo, and that not respecting it leaves something lacking from the club. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions to this?


Sounds like you teacher knows little for a Sandan.

I have only bowed to one shinto shrine in a Dojo I go to. That is dedicated to the departed teacher and founder. Its not usual to have a dedicated shrine and a Kendo Dojo certainly does not worship ancestors.

There is a variation in the concepts of classical budo and kendo. Nevertheless your teachers attitude does not reflect the true Kendo or Budo spirit. The present precepts of budo teach us a way of peace.

My Father was over here in Asia during WW2 as the youngest enlisted soldier. He came to Japan a few years ago and wanted to meet some Japanese of similar age and embrace them. He says that what we should have all done in the first place, and that's the feeling of a lot of veterans. He says its because they fought a war that I am here now and married to my wife (born here). So some good comes out of it.

Most of us on this forum including your teacher were born post war anyway. My contribution to the Budo world here in Japan is testimony to the fact that we can all make a relevant contribution in a martial way that embraces a will to simply protect ones home and family and not to attack others.

When I bow I say a big thank you. A thank you to the place I am in that shows me the way and the people around me. Japanese people are not religious fanitics but do consider mutual bowinng to be a method of deep respect. When I used to go to Korea to teach my sensei always jokingly said, "While you are there teach them some manners".

[ChaShu]

Here's an the humble opinion of a Chinese Christian born in the Philippines married to a Japanes woman and living in Toronto (one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world):

As an Asian (as many of you are or whose culture you are striving to understand and something for which I have the utmost admiration and respect), I believe that, through what I have grown up with and observed in almost all Asian cultures (East, South, Middle Eastern, South East), formal gestures of respect are VERY important and is a part of everything in our respective cultures. Our characted is determined by the dictates of the expected comportment within these cultural strictures, so bowing to shomen while practicing a Japanese budo is an act of respect to those around within the Japanese cultural boundaries of respect and determines your standing as a person, NOT just a martial artist.
Reigi is all about respect. Different cultures have different ways of displaying respect. The za-rei is, I believe, a very strong gesture of respect. In budo, we bow to sensei because we are showing respect for sensei and thanking him/her for all that is being imparted, we bow to otagai to thank them and respect them for practicing with us, and we bow to shomen (the "head" or front of the dojo) to respect something intangible which IMHO we interpret, whether it be the art itself, past sensei, kami, God, Allah, the club for providing the facilities, your parents for having you... it is something intangible which you believe deserves your respect. I don't belive that religion plays a part in this at all as what you are bowing to is determined by what you respect.
Even in Western Boxing (at least in amateur circles) it is bad form not to "touch gloves" before a match because it is considered a sign of disrespect.
The dojo is a place where the outside world in which we live should hold no sway. As soon as we bow in, the outside world, with all of its pettiness, jealousies, anger, rage, anxieties and worries should be lest outside those doors. This includes past quarrels, whether personal, cultural, political religious or otherwise, and boy do I know how ALL Asians can hold a grudge. To bring them into the dojo disrespects your peers because it brings in an element of danger as well as blocking your growth as an individual through the principles of the katana.
We (as all budoka do) practice something inherently dangerous to our immediate well-being. More so in kendo because we use deadly weapons, despite the features of "safety". We have strict rules regarding respect gestures to, if not to feel respect, at least show respect so that we do not allow our emotions to get the better of us or build grudges and end up with someone hurt, or worst, so to downplay respect gestures due to personal prejudices can be hazardous to your health. Just as I would not think twice about bowing to someone I don't like at the dojo because I respect myself and those around me, not necessarily the person I'm bowing to, so should you not dismiss bowing to shomen because of what your personal prejudices lead you to perceive the gesture to represent. It is a bow to a physical space. You determine what you will about what that bow respects in your mind unbiased by your personal prejudices. (Not YOU specifically buds, just YOU in general terms :happy:)
Remember the AJKF purpose of practicing kendo found here: http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm, especiallythose passages about courtesy, honour, sincerity, peace and prosperity.
My C$0.02 worth, which is about U$0.017. Discuss? :D

[ChaShu]

Here's an the humble opinion of a Chinese Christian born in the Philippines married to a Japanese woman and living in Toronto (one of the most multi-cultural cities in the world):

As an Asian (as many of you are or whose culture you are striving to understand and something for which I have the utmost admiration and respect), I believe that, through what I have grown up with and observed in almost all Asian cultures (East, South, Middle Eastern, South East), formal gestures of respect are VERY important and is a part of everything in our respective cultures. Our characted is determined by the dictates of the expected comportment within these cultural strictures, so bowing to shomen while practicing a Japanese budo is an act of respect to those around within the Japanese cultural boundaries of respect and determines your standing as a person, NOT just a martial artist.
Reigi is all about respect. Different cultures have different ways of displaying respect. The za-rei is, I believe, a very strong gesture of respect. In budo, we bow to sensei because we are showing respect for sensei and thanking him/her for all that is being imparted, we bow to otagai to thank them and respect them for practicing with us, and we bow to shomen (the "head" or front of the dojo) to respect something intangible which IMHO we interpret, whether it be the art itself, past sensei, kami, God, Allah, the club for providing the facilities, your parents for having you... it is something intangible which you believe deserves your respect. I don't belive that religion plays a part in this at all as what you are bowing to is determined by what you respect.
Even in Western Boxing (at least in amateur circles) it is bad form not to "touch gloves" before a match because it is considered a sign of disrespect.
The dojo is a place where the outside world in which we live should hold no sway. As soon as we bow in, the outside world, with all of its pettiness, jealousies, anger, rage, anxieties and worries should be lest outside those doors. This includes past quarrels, whether personal, cultural, political religious or otherwise, and boy do I know how ALL Asians can hold a grudge. To bring them into the dojo disrespects your peers because it brings in an element of danger as well as blocking your growth as an individual through the principles of the katana.
We (as all budoka do) practice something inherently dangerous to our immediate well-being. More so in kendo because we use deadly weapons, despite the features of "safety". We have strict rules regarding respect gestures to, if not to feel respect, at least show respect so that we do not allow our emotions to get the better of us or build grudges and end up with someone hurt, or worst, so to downplay respect gestures due to personal prejudices can be hazardous to your health. Just as I would not think twice about bowing to someone I don't like at the dojo because I respect myself and those around me, not necessarily the person I'm bowing to, so should you not dismiss bowing to shomen because of what your personal prejudices lead you to perceive the gesture to represent. It is a bow to a physical space. You determine what you will about what that bow respects in your mind unbiased by your personal prejudices. (Not YOU specifically buds, just YOU in general terms :happy:)
Remember the AJKF purpose of practicing kendo found here: http://www.kendo.or.jp/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm, especially those passages about courtesy, honour, sincerity, peace and prosperity.
My C$0.02 worth, which is about U$0.017. Discuss?

[ChaShu]

Sorry for the double post, slow connection at the moment. Clicked on post twice...

[Lazken]

havent seen that much huge posts in one thread since ... eerrr. I dunno

big read, but quite intresting ;)

[Charlie]

Excellent post, ChaShu. (Both times!)

[samurai999]

We had a person once who refused to rei to "shinzen" since it would be disrespecting his "God". But rei'ed to shomen, which was in the same direction and it wasn't to a particular shrine sort of speak....

Tim

[ChaShu]

havent seen that much huge posts in one thread since ... eerrr. I dunno

big read, but quite intresting ;)

Well, I guess issues of belief and personal attitudes inspire deep rooted opinions, but I believe it's through debate like this when we can come to know and understand each other better. That way we can all deal with each other with sincerity and respect. :happy:

[ChaShu]

Excellent post, ChaShu. (Both times!)

Thanks Charlie san! :D

[Hisham]

Respectfull bow to DanShea and Sminki for being able to agree to disagree in a civilized manner and other people like Chashu with whom i concur , anyway as far as the debate is concerned i tend to agree with Sminki especially with the "no problem with shomen ni rei" part, as far as mushin being a Zen only concept, it's not IMHO, research any thought/spiritual "school" that was/is about exploring the mind and spirit "mechanics", you'll surely find that concept under another name or expression, but the same as far as meaning, actually if i'm not mistaken, Not-i discussed it on the Mushin thread started by Kensei, (it's 1:26AM and i'm pretty tired from work :tired:,so i didn't bother to put the link to the thread) ,
Much respect and peace all

[JByrd]

I have enjoyed reading this thread, thanks to those who have contributed.

I personally have resolved my conflicts with the issue of bowing this way: If I am the one bowing, I am the one who gets to decide what the bow means, or does not mean.

[Dave Fowler]

It depends on what sort of dojo you are. If the dojo is shinto, then there should be a shrine (kamiza) and at the start and end of class you turn to the shrine (kamiza-ni) and rei. But most dojo are secular and just bow to the front (shomen-ni, rei). This bow shows respect to the dojo and for the training, and has nothing to do with ancestors or previous wars or whatever. I suggest you do this one.

When we had our shrine we said shinzen-ni (sp?)

[Dave Fowler]

Hi, Arnold. We've never had a single complaint in the 20 years or so I've been with the club. I can see where your situation may cause confusion, as there physically is an altar there, even if you explain.

This same topic came up on iaido-l recently, and the majority opinion there is that the reiho is part of kendo/iaido/koryu/whatever. To exclude it changes what we do to something else. If a prospective student can't get past it, then they can go find some other activity. I agree with that - our way or the highway. If you don't want to bow, you don't have to - the fencing club is thataway.

We've had issues here in Regina, amazingly not at the old club which did have a shrine, but rather at the Y which didn't.. weird eh.

[Dave Fowler]

Sorry to say this people. But I think you are talking a hole load of Crap :D.
If you went to say, the Olympics would you stay seated wile another countries national anthem was being played?



Acutally I had this discussion with a buddy the other day. He was telling me about this story where they were in the states and when the national anthem was being played he stayed sitting 'because it wasn't our national anthem so why should I stand'.
He couldn't understand why he was getting dirty looks from everyone around him. I then asked him if there were americans at a canadian function and the canadian anthem was played and they didn't stand wouldn't he be upset. He said ya, and when I said see why they were mad at you he had this look of 'I don't understand' on his face... my point is there are and will always be people who feel that they should have their stuff respected but not others... not much you can do other than as Neil said 'our way or the highway'.

[Hai_hai]

Kendo is much like other Asian martial arts in that they have roots with Eastern religions. Some dojos or martial arts schools emphasize the role of Eastern religions in their art more than others. For American kendo dojo, beginner's usually learn about basics of kendo movements and rules. There's a separation of Buddhism and the martial art to some extent. Later on, beginners may inquire about bowing to the kamiza or shomen. Maybe, it would be best for the sensei/dojo to explain the reigi, roots of Buddhism's relation and history in kendo.

I don't say this as a snobby way of keeping out Christians or those of other religions. I say this so that people thinking of joining are aware. It will allow everyone of different faiths/beliefs/religions to choose whether to study kendo or not. Then in the dojo, you don't have this conflict of interest. It would be done in the best interests of those inquiring to start more so than the dojo.

Usually hard practices and callouses force beginners to quit, so providing the aforementioned Buddhist information is as honest as providing the truth about how physically demanding kendo practices are.

[Koki]

People should keep an open mind.

Well, I'm not a Christian. However, I've been to the Catholic church, Mormon church, Jewish Bible Study group... and all kind of different sermons. My friends invited me, and I see it as an important part of their lives. And since they wanted to share with me, I went.

After 9/11, we had a prayer session at our university. I hadn't been to any session like that before. One of my friends asked me to lead the pray in Christian traditions. I did it.

The point is that one has to consider the higher purpose. I could have said "I'm not a Christian, I don't wanna pray that way". However, I didn't because the purpose of the prayer was to ease the sufferings and to show compassion, and i wouldn't pick my ego over that.

It's the same thing with the flag and the national athem. I'm not a US citizen. And as you know, there is always the flag ceremony at every tournament. I stand up every time, I even sang the US athem with my friends. I do that because I want to show respect to my friends' country. It's a reponsibility as well as a privilege of a friend.

Now back to the bow before practice. Of course the tradition is rooted in religions. However, nowadays, like many people have posted, it is a sign of showing respect and appreciation, and not so much as worshiping.

How things look depends on one's perpsectives as well as attitudes. You have FREE WILL. So don't take things too LITERALLY and PERSONALLY. Not everyone is out to get you... just the majority of them...lol

[mad_god]

"However, they cite that they do not bow towards the front due to religious reasons. "

Bah..when in Rome, etc...
I'm about as strong an atheist as one can be, but I still go follow the traditions whenever visiting a shrine, temple, church, whathaveyou.
It's not a question of beliefs, but a question of basic respect.

Jakob

Almost correct.
Before arguing if they "need" to have a kami at the dojo, or if they "need" to bow the kami, they should understand why they are doing the rei to the kami.
Tip: Kami here really doens't matter if is Shinto or Christian one. The question is what's your purpose of practice Kendo.

MAD GOD

[MrUnWaki]

Tell your sensei this is america, and past crimes were committed by past generals who because of their crimes are not worth respecting so it doesnt go out to them anyway, how about the ancestors before these war crimes? and how about the korean ancestors?

[Naga-San]

Have any of you other people out there experienced the same or similar experience(s) in your Dojo? What conclusion was reached regarding this issue?

Amatsuda

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo[/QUOTE]

I recently started and one of the questions I asked the sensei was if he taught zen or anything else along with Kendo. He replied that our faiths were our own and that he did not incorporate any kind of faith based teaching into practice sessions. Being a Christian I have to watch out for doing things against my faith but my advice for those who refuse to bow is to find another dojo, refusing to bow shows disrespect regardelss of whether you think respect is warranted, you are disrespecting the people there and are putting a bad taste in their mouths in regards to Christians. You have to ask about things beofre plunging into them, I did and I not only made sure I preserved my beliefs but also showed my future sensei my interest in the art, that I am not joining just to "hit people with sticks". We bow to the front and I have never thought I was bowing to any diety, rather to the dojo which in my eyes is made up of all the people, teachers, financeirs, past and present that provided the oppurtunity for me to train. There is not altar at my dojo but a wonderful mural of Mount Fuji, so if I want to get spiritual I can view the Mount as I bow and thank God for its beauty and for my life and for the chance to meet new people and to learn. Many Christians shy away from martial art for many reasons, I however think we make good students and opponents for if we stay true to the teaching in the Bible we will never turn a good hit into something personal and thereby getting angry with our opponent but rather rejoice that that person has such skills and apply what happened so it won't happen again. Getting angry clouds your judgement and slows your reaction as well as makes you weak. I could go on forever on this subject but this small essay is fragmented enough. One day I will write a book (booklet) on the Christian and Kendo (perhaps one already has?), but that is a long time out, right now I must give my attention to the senior students and my sensei and learn what they have spent their lives perfecting.
Grace and peace to you all.

[Mokuso]

After reading through all the different posts I really can't leave this topic alone.

I would like to remind people of a few things to consider before they debate.

I am talking about kendo only and not about grudges in the past because of bad leadership that has damaged the reputation of nations.

Meaning of kendo and bowing:
Whatever topic that involves different cultures,
please understand that sometimes things cannot be translated correctly between them, Some things can be found in some cultures that cannot be explained in words nor exist in the context of other cultures.
We should show respect each others differences no matter what.

I think in term of kendo traditions:
NEVER go about changing anything if you don't understand it completely. Kendo wasn't invented over night so nobody has the right to change any sort of traditions to suit themselves.
Kendo's ancestors will roll forever in their graves if people came along and simply changed it simply because they don't understand it and they dont like it.

Show respect, bow to what you believe in personally, or bow to show respect to others. Not showing respect is not acceptable in any culture.

In defense to getting rid of traditions, I think you will destroy Kendo and it will turn into a sport completely.
it's the philosophy side that makes it huge! from kendo philosophy we can spend the rest of our life learning from it. (it is not a religion)

If people don't agree with how things are then that is perfectly fine, everyone has their personal opinions, they can find other common sports that is not so unique.

Kendo is Kendo. It can only be flexible to a certain extent.

[Mugu]

I think we're pushing this topic toward the "I am Chrisitan and I won't Mokuso" topic. I agree with most people just do it for respect. Why make it so complicated? I swear people are so paranoid that they think there is a consipracy in everything.

Chinese have a saying, something like "Enter a village, follow the customs" or something like "Enter someone's house, follow their rules". It's not even any consipracy or anything, just to show respects. It's great that you're faithful to your god and all, I feel Kendo is to teach respect and discipline. If someone don't even respect the culture, I don't understand why to continue practicing. That's like the most basic thing even before you start holding your shinai. I went to a church once, my friend is very Buddhist, she told me not to do the cross thing, but I did it anyways. Why? because I respect the religion. You don't believe in something it doesn't mean you don't have to show respect. It's very logical, but it got complicated. That's why equality is one thing can never achieve because respecting each other is that hard...

[nodachi]

The funny think about people not wanting to mokuso is that it is how long.... 10 seconds... 20 seconds... not like anyone is asking them to do too much... you can be respectful by just sitting there with your hands folded and not really do anything, but I guess that is too much for some people...