Nihontodo: Combative Kenjutsu [Archive]

GothMelancolia

25th January 2011, 03:26 PM

Hi ben, sorry I'm not a kid. =)

And what is Ninten Do?

If you would like to train to be proficient in a 'Shinken', please join us combative kenjutsu. =)

Hi awakentheronin
Couple of questions for you
Nice outfit…does that skull come in red also? Can I ask why Mater Dave wears gloves?
What do you mean by “Shinken” ?
Nihontodo that has a nice ring to it…

Ninten Do is the ultimate martial art…teaches combat skills that can be applied in every day life …you get to learn to use a multitude of weapons or learn combat with your bare hands ….in a real life situation a Ninten Do practitioner is deadly.
I am not a practitioner myself since I don’t have allot of free time (you know family, kendo, work) but my brother is …his training session could last a whole night. And it’s really exhausting for him you know. There are allot of practitioners around the world.

Sorry but I’m not an English native speaker so I may have made some spelling mistakes

awakentheronin

25th January 2011, 04:03 PM

Hi Goth, a 'shinken' is a real Samurai sword.
Nihontodo, is translated as the Way of the Japanese Sword.

We are training in real Kenjutsu to be proficient in a real Samurai sword.

Thank you =)

awakentheronin

25th January 2011, 04:06 PM

This is our Battodo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UFNmE3MLU

GothMelancolia

25th January 2011, 04:49 PM

This is our Battodo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UFNmE3MLU

Thank you for the clarification
I though “kendo” meant “the way of the sword”…I must have been mistaken then :(
So if I understand correctly
Nihon =Japanese
Do=way
Meaning you translate “to” as in sword? Interesting
So you have “real” samurai swords and spar with them wow…don’t you get hurt?
And "bat to do", hmm what does that mean?
The way of the “bat (how do you translate this)” sword?
Sorry, like I’ve said I’m not a native English speaker

awakentheronin

25th January 2011, 05:38 PM

Hi Goth, Battodo is where Master Dave teaches how to draw and resheath the sword in Kata.
Some of the Kata are in the video I posted.

We start with wooden sword, and slowly move on to blunt sword, and real sharp Samurai sword.

Fuzzy

25th January 2011, 05:40 PM

Oh men, I am getting my pop corn ready. Who's bringing six packs?

A night of Ninten Do with popcorn and beer sounds like a blast. I'll bring the six packs

To awakentheronin - Do you have name for the various "hit points" in Nihontodo?
And how do you score?
I noticed you have various levels of competency, what system is used to determine someones level?

Thanks

Fuzzy

ScottUK

25th January 2011, 06:40 PM

Shouldn't you guys be wearing armour? Them sharp swords am vewy dangerous, you know.

still learning

25th January 2011, 07:02 PM

This is our Battodo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UFNmE3MLU

This is your Botty-Do; - the way of the botty - 'coz it stinks.

I have no real basis for my comments other than viewing links provided;
nor am I in any way qualified to critique - - but [my opinion] this IS SHITE!

rfoxmich

25th January 2011, 07:29 PM

A psychiatrist, a priest and Master Dave walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, some kind of joke?"
My advice to awaken the ronin.. carefully and slowly edge towards the dojo door. When nobody is looking...quick bow leave and RUN FAR AWAY. Master Dave may well be qualified in some martial art, it is not a Japanese sword art however.

babayaga

25th January 2011, 07:35 PM

Ah, newbie rule, guys?

To the original poster: This is a forum for Kendo and related, authentic Japanese arts. Therefore, you will not find a welcome audience here for "Master Dave's" thing.

Using a Japanese sword and labeling an activity with a Japanese name formed from a rudimentary understanding of the language does not make something a Japanese art. Master Dave demonstrates in his "batto" kata that he does not understand what batto is. There is no nukitsuke. There is no coherent tai sabaki. There is no tradition.

If you want to learn more about the differences between the traditions discussed on this forum, and stuff that people with a shallow exposure to those arts make up because they want to look cool and have fun, then that is a discussion that many folks on this forum will seriously enter. You simply have to ask for the information. You may be curious about authentic arts in your country. Tell us where you are (is .my Malaysia? Myanmar?) and we can see what might be nearby.

But I advise against attempting to promote this "art" or defend it here. Everyone else who has posted so far is only saying bad things and joking about it.

-Beth

ScottUK

25th January 2011, 07:36 PM

OK serious question time.

1 - What are Master Dave's qualifications in Nihontodo?

2 - Who was his teacher?

3 - What style is Nihontodo based on?

4 - What format does your class normally take?

5 - How many of you practice?

6 - What makes of shinken do you use?

7 - James Wee, is that his real name?

Anorymous

25th January 2011, 08:27 PM

You say "Master Dave", I hear "egomania".

It has nothing to do with who he or you are, or what he or you are teaching. The instant someone calls him/herself "Master" + the diminutive form of his name, I instantly lose all respect for him/her. Ueshiba Morihei was a genius martial artist and founded his own school, but had he called himself "Master Mori" I'd just have laughed at him.

Maybe I'm too prejudiced in that regard.

FastKendo

25th January 2011, 10:26 PM

This is your Botty-Do; - the way of the botty - 'coz it stinks.

I have no real basis for my comments other than viewing links provided;
nor am I in any way qualified to critique - - but [my opinion] this IS SHITE!

A psychiatrist, a priest and Master Dave walk into a bar. The bartender says "What is this, some kind of joke?"
My advice to awaken the ronin.. carefully and slowly edge towards the dojo door. When nobody is looking...quick bow leave and RUN FAR AWAY. Master Dave may well be qualified in some martial art, it is not a Japanese sword art however.

can't agree more.. even my noob eyes can see it

b8amack

25th January 2011, 10:26 PM

http://www.samuraisports.com.sg/home/nhtdranks

I like how you have to get first dan two times, apparently.

nagi

25th January 2011, 11:16 PM

Looks like something you'd learn at Jedi school, no offense.

KendoSlug

26th January 2011, 12:06 AM

Hi,

And who are the "technical advisors" for the nihontodo ? Two "famous" martial artists on the bullshido forum : Dana Abbott and Richard Ryan
http://www.samuraisports.com.sg/home/technical-advisors

:p

pgsmith

26th January 2011, 03:37 AM

Just to share with all of you the art of Nihontodo, combative kenjutsu. Where we can strike at each other more freely than modern Kendo.
It looks very interesting, and not nearly as limited in what you can do as kendo. Do you guys have any sort of video training classes set up?

Shinsengumi77

26th January 2011, 04:01 AM

It looks very interesting, and not nearly as limited in what you can do as kendo. Do you guys have any sort of video training classes set up?

I almost spewed my coffee right there :)

hl1978

26th January 2011, 04:40 AM

Hi everyone,

Just to share with all of you the art of Nihontodo, combative kenjutsu. Where we can strike at each other more freely than modern Kendo.

Do you have additional targets? From watching the video and related videos, it seems like you are striking the same targets and utilizing the same equipment as kendo. In what ways do you differ and can strike more freely than modern kendo?

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 09:06 AM

I think some people here needs to learn to have some respect. This is one of the fundamentals of learning Samurai Kenjutsu.

Perhaps this will answer your questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihontodo

For more questions, I think it is best for Master Dave to answer himself.
Here's another Facebook page for Nihontodo, Way of the Japanese Sword: http://www.facebook.com/pages/NihontoDo/108387585853044

krys

26th January 2011, 09:18 AM

I think some people here needs to learn to have some respect. This is one of the fundamentals of learning Samurai Kenjutsu.
One may say that word 'kenjutsu' also needs to be respected.

Perhaps this will answer your questions: [...]
All possible questions that matter were answered by the youtube films provided by you.

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 09:23 AM

One may say that word 'kenjutsu' also needs to be respected.

All possible questions that matter were answered by the youtube films provided by you.

And may I ask how were the questions answered?
It was just a demonstration on youtube.

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 10:31 AM

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO3NM2NtHBU

And this is demonstration at a shopping mall for Ninja Assassin!

Shinsengumi77

26th January 2011, 11:42 AM

First off, WE NEVER HAD ANY QUESTIONS (aside from maybe "why are you promoting a McDojo version of cheap swordsmanship on a forum dedicated to TRADITIONAL Japanese sword arts?") We know more vocabulary than you can shake a stick at (so please don't try to explain what a shinken is, or what you do, and expect that there is much you can teach us) and most have more experience with the real deal. Sorry, but there's no need to be tactful with these issues.

So far, you seem to have ignored our questions which concern the validation of your so called kenjutsu. Answer ours first, as the burden of proof lies with you.

Paburo

26th January 2011, 11:46 AM

i'm sorry but i read the rules and i can only see a sad kendo rip-off:

http://www.samuraisports.com.sg/home/competition

how much do you charge for this thing a month?

i see the word "corporate" all over the site but i haven't seen "sports insurance" even once... knock on wood buddy....

Neil Gendzwill

26th January 2011, 11:59 AM

I'm tempted to ban this guy for spam and/or trolling, but instead I'll just move it to flames. I don't think the newbie rule really applies in this case.

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 01:17 PM

ok i quote from the Wikipedia:

"NihontoDo was established in Singapore in 2007 under Creator Master David Sabobel, with patronage by Samurai Sports Singapore founder Master James Wee.

NihontoDo was created by blending elements from Sports Chanbara, Toyama-ryū Battōjutsu and Kashima Shin ryū Kenjutsu, which were the foundation arts of the masters.

Originally a school teaching solely Sports Chanbara in 2006, both masters realised a need for a comprehensive sword system that focuses more on other attributes of swordsmanship besides freestyle sparring.

Based on their experience in Kashima Shin ryū and Toyama-ryū, a simplified syllabus was laid out, for the layman's ease of understanding."

So is that ok now?

ludde

26th January 2011, 02:37 PM

How long did they practice Toyama-ryu and Kashima Shin-ryu? And under whom?

DJMM

26th January 2011, 02:42 PM

"So is that okay now?" - Unfortunately, no. This thread is not going to go the way you want and I would recommend letting it drop at this point. Your posts are only raising more questions. For example, who did they learn Toyama-ryu from, what was their rank, and so on. These things are also pretty easily verified as the JSA community is not very large and groups can be pretty tight knit. Taking a seminar, looking at videos online or reading descriptions on the web are not sufficient to provide a foundation for creating a new system.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_UFNmE3MLU From the video you posted - I am sorry but there are gross problems with the battodo kata presented (e.g. 2:10-2:23). I will refrain from pointing out some of the serious issues with the kata as performed as I don't want to inadvertently provide any help that would allow this to continue. As an earlier person said, that video answers more questions than any posts can.

If you are serious about learning a Japanese sword art, I would highly recommend looking for another school. I know it can be difficult and if you have passion for it something may seem better than nothing, but practicing this system will not be teaching you 'combative kenjutsu'.

Man, after lurking on this site for ages this is the post that gets me to create an account. Excellent troll if that's what this is.

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 02:48 PM

What do you mean by "troll"?

And again, how can a video answer questions, when the video is not explaining anything?

I do not know who is Master Dave's teacher(s).
All I know is he is teaching Samurai Kenjutsu.

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 04:45 PM

It looks very interesting, and not nearly as limited in what you can do as kendo. Do you guys have any sort of video training classes set up?

Well done pg you were brave enough to go against the flow and say what was in your heart. I think the UK should wake up and smell the beer, this is it, this is the breath of fresh air we need, this looks so good, its much more relaxed than what we do now, scot as our leader I think we should have a whip round and send you out to singapore( 6 star hilton be ok with you) for six days to master this wonderful new art and bring it home to us, then we can start making some serious money. I must say best kendo I have ever seen !!!!!!!!!!!
coloured belts and dan stripes this art is brill it has everthinh you could hope for.

we need to open our minds to more of this we have gotten into a rut with all our tradition and history this is the dawning of a new age.

still learning

26th January 2011, 04:48 PM

.... how can a video answer questions, when the video is not explaining anything?

If you saw a video of VERY BADLY PERFORMED brain surgery..... it would answer [unasked/unvoiced] questions...... but would 'explain' [illustrate] that the surgeon is a tosser.

I do not know who is Master Dave's teacher(s).
ASK HIM!........... If his answer[s] contain the word 'Chanbarra'... do not be surprised....... Do, however, realise that this means that Traditional Japanese Sword Arts are NOT being represented/taught.

All I know is he is teaching Samurai Kenjutsu.

Not correct. You THINK he is................ because that is the idea he has sold to you.

ScottUK asked some questions in an earlier post;
you might gain some favour if you were to answer them.

My BEGINNERS [kendo] would kick the living shit out of any - perhaps all - of your group.

Based upon video evidence - as supplied by YOU - this chap [and any of the disciples] could not achieve a brown belt......... that is an Ikkyu......

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 04:50 PM

and uk prat is well on his way to mastering this as his chiburi is already like this !!!!!!

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 04:56 PM

If you saw a video of VERY BADLY PERFORMED brain surgery..... it would answer [unasked/unvoiced] questions...... but would 'explain' [illustrate] that the surgeon is a tosser.

ASK HIM!........... If his answer[s] contain the word 'Chanbarra'... do not be surprised....... Do, however, realise that this means that Traditional Japanese Sword Arts are NOT being represented/taught.

Not correct. You THINK he is................ because that is the idea he has sold to you.

ScottUK asked some questions in an earlier post;
you might gain some favour if you were to answer them.

My BEGINNERS [kendo] would kick the living shit out of any - perhaps all - of your group.

Based upon video evidence - as supplied by YOU - this chap [and any of the disciples] could not achieve a brown belt......... that is an Ikkyu......

do you think they could achieve brown pants bill?

still learning

26th January 2011, 04:58 PM

do you think they could achieve brown pants bill?

I nearly shat with laughter when I watched the videos of ''Master'' Dave....

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 05:06 PM

ScottUK

26th January 2011, 05:06 PM

I do not know who is Master Dave's teacher(s).
All I know is he is teaching Samurai Kenjutsu.
If you are posting across all the forums on Samurai Jimbob's behalf, surely you are one of his most trusted students?

If so, how long have you been training?

If more than, say, six months, why don't you know EVERYTHING there is to know about your art's history? Budo is a lot more than just physical practice, you know.

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 05:08 PM

I nearly shat with laughter when I watched the videos of ''Master'' Dave....
dont you are frightening me I have never seen you laugh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ScottUK

26th January 2011, 05:09 PM

Ok then, so just HOW is Master Dave doing a bad performance. Tell me.

I will tell you if you promise to call me Master Shidoshi Soke Scottus.

still learning

26th January 2011, 05:11 PM

Ok then, so just HOW is Master Dave doing a bad performance. Tell me.

As I do not have a couple of haours [Nay, DAYS] to spare on answering this question - - I will turn it around and ask YOU to tell US [or just me] what the dingbat is doing that could ever rise above 'awful' - - - let alone achieve 'acceptable' [notice how I avoided the word 'good'....]

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 05:11 PM

good morning scott and how do you think your day is going to pan out, will you need a bag carrier when you go out to study and become master scott( hot to trot )

1 cut 1 kill

26th January 2011, 05:12 PM

will master bater do scottus?

David G

26th January 2011, 05:25 PM

I will tell you if you promise to call me Master Shidoshi Soke Scottus.

Great idea Scott. I think "Grand Master" would be better once you've been across and learnt this art as 1-Cut has suggested. This looks great and well worth looking into more.

David G

26th January 2011, 05:29 PM

I've just noticed on this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BV2XHVlTyiU&NR=1

the sign post for "Bazaar" in the background.

Isn't that spelt wrong . . . . . .

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 05:31 PM

As I do not have a couple of haours [Nay, DAYS] to spare on answering this question - - I will turn it around and ask YOU to tell US [or just me] what the dingbat is doing that could ever rise above 'awful' - - - let alone achieve 'acceptable' [notice how I avoided the word 'good'....]

Master Dave delivers each cut cleanly in his Kata, and demonstrate spirit in his Kiai (the shout of encouragement).
That is good.

ScottUK

26th January 2011, 05:32 PM

Great idea Scott. I think "Grand Master" would be betterA couple of my students already call me this (outside the dojo) just to spite me.

still learning

26th January 2011, 05:33 PM

Master Dave delivers each cut cleanly in his Kata, and demonstrate spirit in his Kiai (the shout of encouragement).
That is good.

Thank you for the response.

Now;- what qualification do you have to make 3 such observations/assertions.........??

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 05:37 PM

Thank you for the response.

Now;- what qualification do you have to make 3 such observations/assertions.........??

I have no other qualification. This is just what Master Dave teaches, to practice Kenjutsu properly.

David G

26th January 2011, 05:41 PM

A couple of my students already call me this (outside the dojo) just to spite me.

Made me giggle . . . :D

Grand Master Scottus Maximus Bearus of Battojutsunihontodo. Plus you'll have chance to visit the lady-boys again if we fund your trip to learn this wonderful new art.

ScottUK

26th January 2011, 05:42 PM

I have invited Master Dave to the forum. Normally I would avoid such action but this nonsense warrants an explanation.

you'll have chance to visit the lady-boys again

Woohoo I have an invite to visit your dojo again?

awakentheronin

26th January 2011, 05:44 PM

I have invited Master Dave to the forum. Normally I would avoid such action but this nonsense warrants an explanation.

By nonsense, what are you referring to??????

Fuzzy

26th January 2011, 05:46 PM

Every time i see a picture of Master Dave i hear the music "Superfreak"
maybe nihontodo should adopt it as their anthem

Fuzzy

ScottUK

26th January 2011, 05:51 PM

By nonsense, what are you referring to??????

Our nonsense - the unfounded speculation about Nihontodo and Master Jim by everyone here who practices koryu and established genbudo arts. I'm sure we're all just talking rubbish...

David G

26th January 2011, 06:03 PM

Our nonsense - I'm sure we're all just talking rubbish...

Well said Scott. We need to find out more about this wonderful new "art".

Shinsengumi77

26th January 2011, 06:46 PM

Ok then, so just HOW is Master Dave doing a bad performance. Tell me.

I am not in the position to say much as I only have maybe 4 or 5 years of experience with Kendo alone, but for the people that could tell you what issues he has, odds are you might not understand the concepts they discuss. I doubt "Master" Dave (wow just saying that is distasteful) has taught you a whole lot of the mechanics concerning each movement, and if he has, they are very likely wrong, skewed, or completely made up. When beginners ask advanced practitioners questions, usually the answers they receive are above their heads due to a lack of experience.

By the way, ATR, kiai is not "a shout of encouragement" as far as I am aware. Is this your understanding of it?

rfoxmich

26th January 2011, 07:10 PM

The first link sure didn't...or maybe it did:

"his page has been deleted. The deletion and move log for the page are provided below for reference.
10:48, 26 January 2011 RHaworth (talk | contribs) deleted "NihontoDo" ‎ (G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion)"

As far as the facebook page goes when I see things like

"NihontoDo was created by blending elements from Sports Chanbara, Toyama-ryū Battōjutsu and Kashima Shin ryū Kenjutsu, which were the foundation arts of the masters."

I follow my advice to you...edge slowly towards the dojo door, bow quickly and run like hell. The things you have to ask yourself: What level of understanding of sword would be needed to productively blend these three very very diverse activities? Sports Chanbara - a just for fun play fighting thing, Toyama-Ryu BattoJutsu, a relatively modern batto-ho, and Kashima Shinryu an art with maybe 19 generations of history? Either a very deep understanding that could only come from a life time of training in all three activities or more likely, a perverse desire to profit monetarily from the popularity of the first two coupled with fleecing those who might get taken in by a claimed history.

I think some people here needs to learn to have some respect. This is one of the fundamentals of learning Samurai Kenjutsu.

Perhaps this will answer your questions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihontodo

For more questions, I think it is best for Master Dave to answer himself.
Here's another Facebook page for Nihontodo, Way of the Japanese Sword: http://www.facebook.com/pages/NihontoDo/108387585853044

rfoxmich

26th January 2011, 07:12 PM

No this if far too much fun to ban :-)

I'm tempted to ban this guy for spam and/or trolling, but instead I'll just move it to flames. I don't think the newbie rule really applies in this case.

rfoxmich

26th January 2011, 07:18 PM

That's easy.. his technique, his kime, zanshin, and his kigurai are a bit below what mine are when I attempt Iai and my Iai sucks. His chiburi is weak, like mine, and his noto seems to be some confused mess of stuff. The main difference between his batto and mine is that I know mine sucks so I don't try to make money of people with it.

Ok then, so just HOW is Master Dave doing a bad performance. Tell me.

krys

26th January 2011, 08:44 PM

All possible questions that matter were answered by the youtube films provided by you.
And may I ask how were the questions answered?
It was just a demonstration on youtube.
As it was already answered by others, the performance of all the individiuals on those films was poor. You may call them masters and senseis but in eyes of these forums members they all are beginners with no qualifications to teach anything.

Your purpose to promote the business here is futile as most kendo-world members could teach your masters and so they are not to be deceived.

I think some people here needs to learn to have some respect. This is one of the fundamentals of learning Samurai Kenjutsu.

One may say that word 'kenjutsu' also needs to be respected.
You did not ask but let me explain.
Yours Samurai Sports Singapore seems to be a company providing ahtletic courses for individuals. That's fine.
It's cool playing red and black army warriors fighting with (foam) swords during p.e. classes. Go chanbara.
'Stress-relief with intense cardiovascular workouts'? Super-duper.

What's wrong is making up some kenjutsu or way of the japanese swords 'arts' when you have no qualifications to do so. It's a fraud. It's scamming your students. It's - sadly - how you do your business. And it deserves no respect at all.

It may be that awaketheronin is a troll. However most probably that Samurai Sports Singapore is a real thing as lots of work were put into their site.

ender84567

26th January 2011, 09:51 PM

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO3NM2NtHBU

And this is demonstration at a shopping mall for Ninja Assassin!

bwahahahaha what a joke

Big One

26th January 2011, 10:46 PM

I feel so sorry for all the air you are beating around you. If that is the target, there are plenty of them around you.

sirius1906

26th January 2011, 10:46 PM

And what is Ninten Do?

Ninten Do = 任天堂, founded on September 23, 1889 according to the wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo. your master dave is a joke, and a fraud.

nhtdrep

26th January 2011, 11:49 PM

Hi everyone.

First of all, thanks to Scott for notifying us of this thread and the implications it might bring.

Straight up, we at NihontoDo do not claim to be a koryu kenjutsu or any offshoot of, or related to, kendo. Ours is an art born of the combined skills and ideas of both our head teachers (if the word "Masters" offends y'all so much, I shall refrain from its usage here, even though that's what they are to us). First-hand, they have displayed their skills sufficiently to make questioning their qualifications redundant (see next point).

Our art is different from what you're used to: as such, what we do, while acceptable by our standards, may be appalling to you. It was never our intention to come promote our art here — of all places, a kendo forum — where surely it would not be appreciated. I thank you for your kind understanding and patience.

Judging by the diverse flags flown by the various members here, it looks like it's quite an international community. Nevertheless, should any of you happen to pop by Singapore, and are genuinely interested to find out more about our art (and not just to disparage or riducule it), it would be an honour to have you as a guest to clear up any misconceptions you may have. Just let us know in advance you're coming, and you can bring your bogu and shinai, if you want. We can be reached at http://samuraisports.com.sg/contact-us .

awakentheronin, whoever you are, please stop. Check your personal message inbox, thanks.

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 12:01 AM

Thanks for stopping by. Joining our little debate and answering our concerns with some authority can only sway this thread away from the embarrassment awaketheronin has created. Good for you for joining us.

Serious Question 1:

"NihontoDo was created by blending elements from Sports Chanbara, Toyama-ryū Battōjutsu and Kashima Shin ryū Kenjutsu, which were the foundation arts of the masters."

Can you tell me a little more about this please?

EDIT:

Oh, and you have this to look forward to.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1074393014

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 12:08 AM

It was never our intention to come promote our art here — of all places, a kendo forum — where surely it would not be appreciated.

Actually, fella - kendo, iai, kenjutsu, kobujutsu, chanbara etc all get discussed on here. It is far from kendo-only.

Just thought I'd point that out.

nhtdrep

27th January 2011, 12:35 AM

Thanks for the civility and heads-up yet again, Scott.

K, to answer your serious question:

From Sports Chanbara (USCA, Master Dana taught Mr. James Wee, one half of our founding teachers): we took the concept of sparring with padded weapons at full speed. We're aware of the loss of technique accuracy; it's so that people who're put of by the pain etc. (more on that later) of bogu & shinai sparring still have an option.

Mr. James Wee was also schooled in Toyama-ryu by said Master Dana Abbott: we took/borrowed the concept of 8 cuts, 8 guard positions (or kamae, if you prefer) and 8 movements, and tweaked them a little.

Mr. Dav (no "e") was schooled in probably a semi-offshoot of Kashima Shin Ryu (or one of its variants). I shall not mention his master's name, because 1) he can't be found on Google anyway and 2) I don't have the permission. Out of everything he's taught, he's never like, pointed at a particular technique and said "that's Kashima Shin Ryu".

All koryu mentioned in the literature are to give credit to our teachers' backgrounds: we do not lay claim to any lineages whatsoever.

As has been mentioned, our methods, objectives and baselines for measurement of competency vary greatly from yours, so what you see will not be what you expect.

Succinctly put, and these are my words, not my master's: we aren't after the beauty of the movement, we're after the functionality of it. To hit, and not get hit; to take the opponent down without him doing the same to you.

Neil Gendzwill

27th January 2011, 12:51 AM

Well, basing your whole system essentially on Dana Abbott's teaching was the first mistake. As far as the functionality of it, any kendo shodan (two years casual practice) would have no trouble with your master, judging by that sparring video. However, if you're having fun and not misrepresenting this as actual koryu, then all the best to you and stay safe.

ender84567

27th January 2011, 12:56 AM

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_les9r5TY5H1qd1kdzo1_400.gif

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 01:22 AM

Serious Question 2:

Are you Dana Abbott?

nhtdrep

27th January 2011, 01:38 AM

@ScottUK:
You serious that's a serious question?
No, I'm not.

Master Dana is Master Dana, his system(s) and NihontoDo are two separate entities. We did not base our art entirely on Master Dana's teachings, we just borrowed some concepts from him, that's why he's credited. The rest of the credit is due to our art's founders, who drew from their respective backgrounds.

@Neil Gendzwill
I noticed you were the one who moved this thread; I sent you (along with the other 2 moderators of "Flames") a PM regarding this issue. Thank you for your kind attention and well wishes.

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 01:55 AM

Serious Question 3:

What is the purpose of creating combative kenjutsu when it is anything but kenjutsu? It is nothing short of poor kendo - and bears zero resemblance to the kenjutsu ryuha I practice OR any of the others that I am familiar with.

JSchmidt

27th January 2011, 02:02 AM

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 02:07 AM

Not if you are cool with misrepresentation in the martial arts. Thanks for adding your usual tone.

nhtdrep

27th January 2011, 02:17 AM

Thank you, JSchmidt!

Still, some are genuinely curious about what we do, so I shall try my best to answer.

Well, not to be a smartass, but that is because it is not any of the kenjutsu ryuha you practise, nor is it among one of those you're familiar with.
"Combative kenjutsu" is just a term we use to mean "sparring with bogu and shinai in our system using our techniques". Here, "kenjutsu" is not meant to have any koryu connotation at all, it just means "sword technique" in Japanese.

We treat the shinai like a sword as best we can (well enough for our own standards, in our own way), and we use cutting, thrusting and parrying techniques, and if our opponent comes to close, we have sweeps and takedowns at higher levels of our Combative Kenjutsu. In a way, it is somewhat similar to olden kendo (Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo), except for stylistic differences when it comes to striking and movement.

As has already been said, NihontoDo is not, was not, is not going to be, is not trying to be, and will never try to be kendo, or any form of koryu kenjutsu, nor do we try to pass ourselves off as such.

As has already been said, mentioning the 2 koryu was for giving credit, not claiming lineage or relation.

JSchmidt

27th January 2011, 02:20 AM

Not if you are cool with misrepresentation in the martial arts. Thanks for adding your usual tone.

Anytime, dude.

ender84567

27th January 2011, 02:28 AM

We treat the shinai like a sword as best we can (well enough for our own standards, in our own way), and we use cutting, thrusting and parrying techniques, and if our opponent comes to close, we have sweeps and takedowns at higher levels of our Combative Kenjutsu. In a way, it is somewhat similar to olden kendo (Have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWQlx6CZMOo), except for stylistic differences when it comes to striking and movement.

.

Would disagree, you treat it like a stick, and there is more than just stylistic differences, Though many claim even in kendo we do not cut properly this is not 100% true, as you move higher in rank much more emphasis is placed on technique that would cut as opposed to just hit. Playing swords and smacking each other is much closer to what you appear to be doing. Clearly envisioned by someone who has had a taste, but does not have enough experience to tell the difference between smacking and hitting or even understanding why we cut with the body and not just the hands and arms.

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 02:51 AM

Serious Question 4:

What are the rules of combative kenjutsu? What attacks are you allowed to make?

pgsmith

27th January 2011, 03:18 AM

Mr. NHTD Representative,
Since you've been trying hard to explain your school's reasoning, I would like to try and clarify why you have gotten such a hard time here. Looking at the videos of what you guys are doing, it is very easy to see that those that have invented this art have no real idea what they are doing. Quite aside from any stylistic differences, there are a number of basic ideas and movements that are associated with the use of the long sword. These basic ideas and movements can be found in every legitimate school of the Japnese sword arts, as well as any legitimate European martial arts school that uses a long sword. Many of the posters in this thread have enough experience to recognize someone moving and generating power properly, and someone that hasn't a clue. I'm afraid that everyone in the videos which were referenced hasn't a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing. This means that your school's creators do not have sufficient understanding to be able to make their own 'style', and so are simply playing games with swords and selling it as the real thing.

This sort of misrepresentation is very aggravating to those that practice the traditional sword arts, and thus the response you've gotten here. Indeed, I would bet that you would get pretty much the same response at any forum for traditional JSA. If you like what you're doing and having fun, more power to you. However, if you are truly interested and passionate about the Japanese sword arts, you'll wake up one morning and realize that you've wasted a number of years 'mastering' NHTD when you could have actually been learning how to really use a sword.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do.

SangWoooKim

27th January 2011, 04:40 AM

Tired of Toyama ryu always getting adopted for these kind of things..... *smack forehead*

pgsmith

27th January 2011, 06:10 AM

Tired of Toyama ryu always getting adopted for these kind of things..... *smack forehead*
I wonder if it's a coincidence that most of these sort of groups end up tracing back to Dana Abbott? :)

Maro

27th January 2011, 01:50 PM

I wonder if it's a coincidence that most of these sort of groups end up tracing back to Dana Abbott? :)

I doubt it.

spchanbara

27th January 2011, 08:33 PM

Hi, I am from the Singapore Polytechnic Kenjutsu Club, where our FB page link was posted.
I'm a practitioner of Nihontodo for quite a while. Previously, our club was called Singapore Polytechnic Chanbara Club.
I heard there is also a RP Nihontodo Club at Republic Polytechnic.

I thank everyone here for their inputs.

If Master Dav was indeed misleading us and teaching us fake stuff, I think that is very serious, because a lot of people believed that we are learning Japanese Samurai Kenjutsu from him.

However, I hope that people here will substantiate what they say with evidence or some kind of proof.
Just by saying "oh he's fake", isn't very helpful.

Thank you.

b8amack

27th January 2011, 09:31 PM

Neil Gendzwill

27th January 2011, 09:39 PM

It's pretty hard to disprove vague claims. If Dave claims some sort of koryu (old Japanese school) lineage, then there are people and organizations you can ask questions of. But typically these guys read a book or saw a video and copied that. Ask him a direct question about what his lineage is, and then we can maybe do something with that answer for you.

I can just add to the chorus of voices saying that judging by the quality of movement in the videos, he's not a "master" of anything, and isn't really up to snuff for even a student with a year's experience.

David G

27th January 2011, 10:54 PM

Just by saying "oh he's fake", isn't very helpful.

Most on KWF, while not serious all the time, are serious about JSA (Japanese Sword Arts).

If they are saying it's fake/rubbish then believe them and look to find somewhere that does do JSA correctly. Otherwise you will spending money and time on something that isn't worth either.

And no matter how hard you train you will still be wasting time and money.

Maybe someone on here could help and point them in the direction of a better dojo?

dillon

27th January 2011, 11:01 PM

@spchanbara

If you're interested in kendo, there seems to be practices at NUS, which as you know isn't far from SP.

http://www.singaporekendo.org.sg/schedule.html

As for comments (of others) to the effect that somehow it's more combative or practical to avoid being cut/struck/hit... well you aren't going to progress very far unless you accept that you're going to get hit. If you work hard to avoid being hit, then you aren't working hard at cutting well, seeing openings, learning timing, etc. You also won't develop a good sense of cutting from the hip because you'll let your posture break. There is practicality to the "art", it's just not immediately apparent to the untrained eye.

I don't know anything about chanbara so I can't say whether these are things present in it or not. But these are things that are central to kendo and, as far as I know, to koryu kenjutsu as well.

Jonathan

27th January 2011, 11:13 PM

From a training standpoint, it's pretty much a given that someone is going to take a hit at least till you get to the point where you can either redirect it or get out of the way. From a combative standpoint, especially if you're talking edged weapons, I really really don't want to get hit. From what I've seen of tameshigiri, it looks like it would be unpleasant.

ScottUK

27th January 2011, 11:28 PM

Hi spchanbara,

Welcome to the forum.

If Master Dav was indeed misleading us and teaching us fake stuff, I think that is very serious, because a lot of people believed that we are learning Japanese Samurai Kenjutsu from him.

Agreed. No matter what people do, that is fine with me - as long as they are honest about what it is and what it is not. As soon as misrepresentation occurs, I tend to stick my nose in.

However, I hope that people here will substantiate what they say with evidence or some kind of proof.
Just by saying "oh he's fake", isn't very helpful.

What training with Mr Dav is:

Fun, aerobic activity that may offer some challenge, friendly competition, exercise - and all round chanbara goodness. It gives the casual user a chance to train in a sword art or get padded up and do some pseudo-kendo.

What training with Mr Dav is not:

"Our signature modular sword system teaches the essential fundamentals of swordsmanship"

I'm afraid it does not. All-round understanding would require (in my opinion) a solid understanding of iai (for the handling and drawing of a real sword), kenjutsu (to learn distancing, timing and training against someone who is attacking you), tameshigiri (for increasing your depth of understanding about cutting, hasuji etc) and kendo (for an opportunity to openly free-spar) - BUT all from a well-studied person.

This is where Nihontodo falls down.

Much of Mr Dav's technique is at best, limited. That is as polite as I can put it. If you have no other options to learn a sword art, then you just may be stuck with him. However, if you can compare his swordsmanship with that of many others who have videos who are known and respected (a lot of senior teachers are willingly or unknowingly showcased on Youtube - just ask on here for good examples of JSA videos) - you will note a massive difference in technique, ability, timing etc. These all equate to his depth of study - or lack of it.

You will find that other schools that offer formal tuition in established styles will have people who are above Mr Dav's level after a very short period of time.

Next steps:

If a person is fine with training with Mr Dav and understands what he is doing (or trusts him enough to let all of the above go), then I say 'carry on, have fun'.

HOWEVER

If a person is remotely concerned that any of the above is true, then I would suggest they ask Mr Dav a series of questions:

1) Where does the art you are teaching us come from?

2) How long have you studied it?

3) Who taught you?

4) Was Mr X in Q3 above qualified to teach you?

5) Do you still study with Mr X in Q3 above?

6) If not, how are you continuing to develop without someone pushing you?
Now, if one of my students were to ask any of the above, I may (being human and for the briefest of moments) be mildly offended - but all of these questions are very important, and for a student to ask tells me he/she is serious and wants to learn from someone who can teach, has the skills to do so - and the authority.

In short, ANY teacher of worth should have no problems with these questions.

There are a number of people on martial arts forums who you can PM the answers to - and they will be jolly honest with you if you are still unsure. Just don't be fobbed off with vague and ambiguous answers. Any that revolve around 'being sworn to secrecy', 'an old dead master' or 'oh, it is a small family style, not even known in Japan' are quite often male bovine excement. We've heard them all before.

Whether a sword art claims 'koryu' or 'genbudo', it still needs the same things:

Lineage:

With an established lineage of koryu (or genbudo based on established koryu), you are learning something that has survived the ages, probably seen battle and probably used to kill. Therefore it works. Sure, I am generalising, but in a nutshell, my description fits.

Without this established history, a sword art is just swinging a sword about with only a rough idea of what it is to use a sword.

Skill of the teacher:

A teacher needs to have the authority to teach. No teacher of merit would allow his student to teach unless he was happy for this student to represent him, his art and his reputation. Without this authority, you are looking at someone who isn't good enough or for some other reason cannot present their teachers' art in the correct manner.

In 'corporate budo', the above is not applicable as 'head teachers' want their understudies to get out there and teach ASAP to get the school growing - so be careful of this one.

Lots of other things are needed, buty I have limited time today so I will leave it to others to expand on this post.

Summary:

Both time and money are valuable. Don't waste them on something that is not you think it is. Choose your art wisely, and don't forget to Google for Dana Abbott. I need say no more.

Jonathan

27th January 2011, 11:40 PM

1) Where does the art you are teaching us come from?

2) How long have you studied it?

3) Who taught you?

4) Was Mr X in Q3 above qualified to teach you?

5) Do you still study with Mr X in Q3 above?

6) If not, how are you continuing to develop without someone pushing you?

These are great questions, and should be asked whether you are concerned or not - even if you have absolute unshakable faith in your instructor you should know where they came from, so to speak. If you want to do something recently created, hey cool but you should know it for what it is and not get sold on Ancient Samurai Lineage if it didn't come from a samurai.

I might reword #4 there to be something like "Did Mr. X in Q3 give you permission to pass on what he taught you?" or "Who taught the teacher's teacher?" depending on whether you are more concerned with lineage or credentials.

Neil Gendzwill

27th January 2011, 11:59 PM

Good set of questions, Scott. I wouldn't mind being asked those, and I have answers to all of them that should satisfy any prospective student. I hope anyone purporting to teach martial arts of any stripe would feel the same.

Shinsengumi77

28th January 2011, 12:18 AM

I'm wondering if all three personages posting to defend the honor of NTD are just one person using different names...

EndureForte

28th January 2011, 01:58 AM

Scott, Neil, Jonathan, I just wanted to say:

I love all of y'all.

cr720

28th January 2011, 02:16 AM

Scott, Neil, Jonathan, I just wanted to say:

I love all of y'all.

Indeed, well-put Scott. I believe that was a very informative and...diplomatic explanation of the situation. I'm eager to see the response from the NHTD people.

ScottUK

28th January 2011, 03:48 AM

Scott, Neil, Jonathan, I just wanted to say:

I love all of y'all.Hehe no probs dude...

...what you wearing right now? ;)

awakentheronin

28th January 2011, 09:09 AM

ScottUK

28th January 2011, 09:13 AM

I thought you have been banned from posting about Nihontodo?

Jonathan

28th January 2011, 09:46 AM

I couldn't get internet access for the past day, finally I've got internet again.

I'm very very junior in the club, so I don't think I will ask these questions.
I've posted your questions to my Senseis who have PMed me, as I think they're higher up there to ask these questions to Master Dav.

Now I await their answers/replies.

Hey!

There's no one better to ask the questions than a new guy! You seem enthusiastic about your art, why wouldn't you want to talk to the head dude?

The trick is finding the right time and place to ask. I wouldn't want to interrupt him on the mat, but what is the worst thing can happen asking him for a moment of his time after class? "Sir Master Sensei Sir, I had some questions about our art, may I speak with you?"

If this person isn't local to you, I'd just write an email or an actual letter (you know with paper and ink?). Read it a few times over, have some trusted friends or your sempai or whatever look it over for you, then send it. I did it, and man I never would have thought it led where it did. So many good things came from that, I wish I'd done it sooner.

Unless they had an awful experience, any teacher or practitioner should be proud to say where they trained and when.

Don't ask for us unless you want to, ask for you. As a martial artist you deserve to know this stuff and make your choices from an informed position. It is not insulting in any way shape or form to ask for references, and to verify them. This kind of thing should not be uncomfortable for anyone.

Be very careful about cults of personality, they are a big part of why we can't have nice things.

awakentheronin

28th January 2011, 10:23 AM

I thought you have been banned from posting about Nihontodo?

Was I?
I got PMed saying that I'm misrepresenting Nihontodo, but I don't see how that is true.

Now I want to know the truth!

Maro

28th January 2011, 11:44 AM

Was I?
I got PMed saying that I'm misrepresenting Nihontodo, but I don't see how that is true.

Now I want to know the truth!

I predict a true awakening when you ask those questions. Usually, people are told not to post things about a school to avoid this situation specifically.

awakentheronin

28th January 2011, 03:59 PM

Can someone recommend 1 or 2 video clips of supposedly legitimate/skillful Kenjutsu?
Thank you

David G

28th January 2011, 04:48 PM

Can someone recommend 1 or 2 video clips of supposedly legitimate/skillful Kenjutsu?
Thank you

Anyone noticed how good the English is getting in these later posts?

This from the third post:

"If you would like to train to be proficient in a 'Shinken', please join us combative kenjutsu. =) "

Troll? Wind-up?

If it's a wind-up you've got lazy. :-)

1 cut 1 kill

28th January 2011, 05:16 PM

oh s--t does this mean the trip to singapore is off , I was soooooo looking forward to a ten hour flight sitting next to grumpy bill drinking beer.

babayaga

28th January 2011, 08:42 PM

Can someone recommend 1 or 2 video clips of supposedly legitimate/skillful Kenjutsu?
Thank you

Just one or two? Are you kidding?

There's lots of stuff out there to which I could point you. However, your use of the word "supposedly" suggests to me that you're not open to the lesson.

However, I will take your request on face, and offer a link. Here's what I expect to have happen: you will look at it, realize it looks nothing like what you've been doing, and you will dismiss the video as not "real kenjutsu." It's only human nature to get defensive about being being sold false goods. It usually takes a while for common sense to trickle in past the bruised ego.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, however. And since everything with Japanese arts is heavily dependent on context, I will give you some.

The art is very old — over 500 years. It was founded at a time when Japan was suffered from constant battles. However, like most koryu arts, it was not intended to train rank and file warriors for the battlefield, but to shape the entire person. Into what, I can't exactly express.

These are kata: prearranged forms. One can do kata like a dance, with no intensity, going through the motions. Or one can use the form to truly attack and defend, alert for those little "whoopsie!" moments when someone forgets that they're supposed to cut for the feet instead of the head and they're going for the wrong target with gusto.

People with a very shallow grasp of JSA, and martial arts in general, will often dismiss kata as "unrealistic," or "not combative." They are either
1. directly lying because it helps them sell their "style," or
2. have not trained in any one thing long enough to have even a rudimentary understanding of what's really going on in kata. This takes more than a few months. This takes years and years. Ideally, one's teacher should have 20-30 years minimum training in the art.

The venue is a traditional demonstration. There are several grades of these demonstrations in Japan. As my teacher says, some demonstrations are low key events, and you send out the newer students to get their feet wet. At those, you don't see the best stuff. Other events, the groups send out their "A-teams." The very best students. These would be the Nippon Budokan, the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, and one of the shrines (Atsuta? Someone help me out here . . .).

So this is the real stuff, at a top demonstration, with the best students, and a direct chain of teachers stretching back to the 1400's. Put aside your ideas of what kenjutsu should be, because this is one variety of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9w1QpLdXns&feature=player_embedded#

There's bonus naginata there so you get to see how the naginata deals with the speed of the sword, and how the sword breaks down the length advantage of the naginata. You also see two sword, and short sword against long sword.

You are not training in kenjutsu. Unless the people who made up the activity have valid teaching licenses from the arts they credit, they do not have enough understanding of the art to teach other people about it — that's what a teaching license means! So unless your folks have valid teaching licenses in Toyama ryu, for example, they should not be crediting Toyama ryu. It's not honest.

Now, some other arts you could look at:
Shinto Muso-ryu jojutsu
Yagyu Shinkage-ryu (though I really doubt you'll "get" this one at all, because to the inexperienced it looks very, very weird)
Maniwa Nen-ryu

Good luck. And remember, you'll learn a lot more here by listening to the experienced folks, rather than trying to convince us how good your activity is.

-Beth

ender84567

28th January 2011, 09:51 PM

any of the videos here are a good start

http://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld

ender84567

28th January 2011, 10:38 PM

this is probably one of the more useful references :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jScJxtLdIBU&playnext=1&list=PLA99192DC1A2EAB79

ona ha itto ryu is often credited to be the ryuha that kendo stems from.

dillon

28th January 2011, 11:29 PM

Just one or two? Are you kidding?

There's lots of stuff out there to which I could point you. However, your use of the word "supposedly" suggests to me that you're not open to the lesson.

Nice post!

Tone aside I think it's fair to ask to have specific ones pointed out. There are a lot of b.s. out there if you search for "kenjutsu" and to most people it may be hard to tell what's good and what's bad. Without having done a count I dare say more than half are bad of which many would be convincing to the inexperienced.

sirius1906

29th January 2011, 01:21 AM

I have always liked this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=TtdqR9NL9z4

babayaga

29th January 2011, 10:57 AM

Tone aside I think it's fair to ask to have specific ones pointed out. There are a lot of b.s. out there if you search for "kenjutsu" and to most people it may be hard to tell what's good and what's bad. Without having done a count I dare say more than half are bad of which many would be convincing to the inexperienced.

I see your point.

So, to juxtapose bad Katori Shinto-ryu against good, here's some bad Katori Shinto-ryu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzthS9VXRB0&feature=related

And some other things.

Good: http://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld#p/u/95/SBXTnJrbzZs

Bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdC85actEFQ&feature=related

Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HrII2VUgXI&feature=related

Bad: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lueuQu62nRQ&feature=related

Here's the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu (Good): http://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld#p/u/173/zn-p19C8MAQ

And the Shinto Muso-ryu (Good): http://www.youtube.com/user/KendoWorld#p/u/77/VNb6qFZ3PSw

Bad Muso Shinden-ryu/Eishin-ryu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeWmtj3ZIAk

And same approximately same kata, Good: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4bcWpJ56NI

-Beth

ludde

29th January 2011, 07:34 PM

Two clips of Donn F. Draeger. Good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBi4XvWVUIs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ1c5mHr34U&feature=related

ScottUK

29th January 2011, 09:11 PM

Guess whether this is good or bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSxOE-1P2y0&feature=fvw

babayaga

29th January 2011, 10:30 PM

Guess whether this is good or bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSxOE-1P2y0&feature=fvw

Oh, Scott, you make this too easy. It's a foregone conclusion: of course everyone knows that no one in Britain actually has any talent. :wink:

Seriously, though, I think that's a terrific bad example, because the showmanship is simply an exaggerated version of the more subtle methods the posers use to lure in the inexperienced.

-Beth

David G

29th January 2011, 11:06 PM

Guess whether this is good or bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSxOE-1P2y0&feature=fvw

It's obviously good!! It's fabulous, especially the shiny hakama.

Anorymous

29th January 2011, 11:17 PM

Oh, Scott, you make this too easy. It's a foregone conclusion: of course everyone knows that no one in Britain actually has any talent. :wink:

Seriously, though, I think that's a terrific bad example, because the showmanship is simply an exaggerated version of the more subtle methods the posers use to lure in the inexperienced.

-Beth

I recall having seen this guy before, in a German-language Talent. Judging by the yakuza-no-noto, I'd assumed he'd trained in Katori Shinto Ryuu (sp?)

Anyway, as an example. Terrific, yes; self-evident, no. I'm afraid most beginners would not be able to see what's so bad about this. You'll have to admit, he does have a well-developed control of his sword, cuts correctly, and seems to have a couple years' training under his belt.
On the other hand, cucumbers aren't exactly the hardest things to cut; it shows neither his skill nor his sword's quality. For all we know, his sword could be blunt enough to cause no serious damage to his partner if he misses. Plus, you can't exactly judge someone to be capable without having seen his/her footwork. And, it ought to be obvious that he's a showman, not a swordsman.

As usual, tell me if there's anything I've missed.

ender84567

29th January 2011, 11:44 PM

quick, someone post shirtless TKD dude slicing up a ballistics gel dummy.

sirius1906

30th January 2011, 12:52 AM

I recall having seen this guy before, in a German-language Talent. Judging by the yakuza-no-noto, I'd assumed he'd trained in Katori Shinto Ryuu (sp?)

Anyway, as an example. Terrific, yes; self-evident, no. I'm afraid most beginners would not be able to see what's so bad about this. You'll have to admit, he does have a well-developed control of his sword, cuts correctly, and seems to have a couple years' training under his belt.
On the other hand, cucumbers aren't exactly the hardest things to cut; it shows neither his skill nor his sword's quality. For all we know, his sword could be blunt enough to cause no serious damage to his partner if he misses. Plus, you can't exactly judge someone to be capable without having seen his/her footwork. And, it ought to be obvious that he's a showman, not a swordsman.

As usual, tell me if there's anything I've missed.

How about this? Another one of my favorite.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHO2rCk1y-c

ScottUK

30th January 2011, 02:26 AM

Hehe I love this quote from the Youtube page:

WOW - What an athelete. A combination of Sumo and Samurai!

Only in America folks!

Inner_Silence

31st January 2011, 12:18 AM

awesome find!

awakentheronin

31st January 2011, 09:32 AM

awakentheronin

31st January 2011, 10:19 AM

Please also look at our poster at: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/
Scroll down a bit to: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/2010/04/sp-cca-showcase-2010.html

It states clearly that ours is "A comprehensive sword system spanning many centuries of Japanese swordsmanship".

Neil Gendzwill

31st January 2011, 12:24 PM

You're just digging the hole deeper and deeper with those videos.

Josh Reyer

31st January 2011, 12:55 PM

Yagyu Shinkage-ryu (though I really doubt you'll "get" this one at all, because to the inexperienced it looks very, very weird)

Hey!

Actually, while I agree it can be tough when viewing a youtube video, when viewed live performed by experienced practitioners, you feel it in your bones. When I first observed class, I didn't necessarily understand everything they were doing, but I "got" it. Well enough to want to do it.

The venue is a traditional demonstration. There are several grades of these demonstrations in Japan. As my teacher says, some demonstrations are low key events, and you send out the newer students to get their feet wet. At those, you don't see the best stuff. Other events, the groups send out their "A-teams." The very best students. These would be the Nippon Budokan, the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai, and one of the shrines (Atsuta? Someone help me out here . . .).

At Atsuta, there's a morning section and an afternoon section. The morning section (typically made up of YSR, Owari Kan-ryu, Muso Shinto-ryu Jo, and one or two others) is generally used for the kids and relatively inexperienced folk (I first embu'd there after two years of practice). The afternoon section is when the veterans take the floor. I think, however, you're thinking of the Meiji Shrine embu, which has a much larger number of ryuha participating.

b8amack

31st January 2011, 02:21 PM

You're just digging the hole deeper and deeper with those videos.

I've been assuming that since whoever the nhtdrep was openly stated he PM'd awakentheronin to stop posting here, and the latter has mentioned that he received the pm, that this guy is not really affiliated with that not-a-dojo. Also the fact that awakentheronin himself refers to Master Dav as "Master Dave", is pretty telling. This is just a giant windup.

GothMelancolia

31st January 2011, 02:58 PM

Ok, maybe Master Dav didn't impressed you all with his swordwork.

Here's him teaching unarmed techniques: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7MtQDMYmYQ
And knife defense: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z9FL4TZie4

Thank you

You know I was expecting some kind of aikido like movements ....now I'm sorry I watched that. It's not even funny :(

Please also look at our poster at: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/
Scroll down a bit to: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/2010/04/sp-cca-showcase-2010.html

It states clearly that ours is "A comprehensive sword system spanning many centuries of Japanese swordsmanship".

From 2007 sure... I can see it now .....even Nintedo is older then this :D

You're just digging the hole deeper and deeper with those videos.

exactly...

IronWarrior

31st January 2011, 04:40 PM

Ok, maybe Master Dav didn't impressed you all with his swordwork.

Here's him teaching unarmed techniques: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7MtQDMYmYQ
And knife defense: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z9FL4TZie4

Thank you

Please also look at our poster at: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/
Scroll down a bit to: http://spkenjutsu.blogspot.com/2010/04/sp-cca-showcase-2010.html

It states clearly that ours is "A comprehensive sword system spanning many centuries of Japanese swordsmanship".

This is the funniest thing I have watched and read about this morning.

Thank you. lol

Fuzzy

31st January 2011, 05:31 PM

It states clearly that ours is "A comprehensive sword system spanning many centuries of Japanese swordsmanship"".

On my blog it shows that my brothers,uncles,fathers,aunties,sons,cousins,mothe rs,brothers,uncles,sisters,cousin twice removed was the guy who took Jesus down from the cross, I'll leave it to you to prove it wasnt.

People make stuff up,
it starts off with "I didnt take the cookie mummy"
develops into "I can drink 20 pints of beer"
works its way up to " I caught a fish and it was thhhhiiiisssss big"
and by the end you have "A comprehensive sword system spanning many centuries of Japanese swordsmanship"

Fuzzy

ScottUK

31st January 2011, 05:48 PM

I've been assuming that since whoever the nhtdrep was openly stated he PM'd awakentheronin to stop posting here, and the latter has mentioned that he received the pm, that this guy is not really affiliated with that not-a-dojo. Also the fact that awakentheronin himself refers to Master Dav as "Master Dave", is pretty telling. This is just a giant windup.
Seconded. Something is amiss here.

As the sarcasm & abuse subsides and the 'proper' kenjutsu vids take over the thread, awaketheronin revitalises us all with more nonsense.

Something stinks, and it ain't just Mr Dav's depth of practice.

dillon

31st January 2011, 07:50 PM

OP's profile says he/she is in Malaysia. Samurai Sports is in Singapore. Maybe it's a case of cross strait rivalry trolling.

Cutie_honey

1st February 2011, 08:18 AM

babayaga

1st February 2011, 10:04 AM

Hey!

Actually, while I agree it can be tough when viewing a youtube video, when viewed live performed by experienced practitioners, you feel it in your bones. When I first observed class, I didn't necessarily understand everything they were doing, but I "got" it. Well enough to want to do it.

Me too — I recognized that it was a completely different animal than the MSr I practiced, and very tempting (to this day even; if only the schedule was different . . . Too bad for Yagyu, 'twas the other with the kusarigama that hooked me).

But you and me are smart folks, not fools being led along the garden path. I don't expect someone who's bought into "nihontodo" to appreciate YSr.

I think, however, you're thinking of the Meiji Shrine embu, which has a much larger number of ryuha participating.

Hmm. Meiji was the subject of the conversation, so that definitely wasn't it.

Anyway, there were some good videos posted. Too bad the OP is a total tool and has gained nothing in the exchange. At least it was an epic thread and will benefit someone who reads it.

-Beth

1 cut 1 kill

1st February 2011, 04:33 PM

You know I was expecting some kind of aikido like movements ....now I'm sorry I watched that. It's not even funny :(

From 2007 sure... I can see it now .....even Nintedo is older then this :D

exactly...

it made me laugh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:smiley: wkd should use it in its next advert, make the most of our packaging,

Mr. Donigan

8th February 2011, 08:01 AM

I'm in tears guys! This thread made my day!

awakentheronin

8th February 2011, 02:35 PM

I'm in tears guys! This thread made my day!

Thank you =)

GothMelancolia

8th February 2011, 07:40 PM

Thank you =)

Wow…you’re alive
I thought The Ninja’s got you
They don’t make ninja’s like they used to ….sishhhh:old_man:

Mr. Donigan

10th February 2011, 12:48 AM

awakentheronin,

Let me, as someone who was on the wrong path at one time, give you some tips. I started doing Kendo in 1994. My sensei studied in Japan for a short time. Basically just long enough to learn the basics. He then continued to practice here in the States after his return at a local University that had students that would come over from Japan. When I joined there were not any of the Japanese students, just my sensei and a few other Americans that had learned from him. At the time there were no other options for Kendo in the city I lived, and I didn't know that the instruction I was getting wasn't exactly right. He didn't teach the Kendo Kata, and the style of instruction was more of a tournament style. By that I mean we focused more on scoring points than doing correct kendo. Now that I'm part of a Dojo that is a member of the AUSKF I am practically starting over. I now see all the bad habits I've picked up, and the etiquette I didn't learn quite right. I've done Kendo for 17 years (with a few breaks in there) and when I keiko in class with the guys that have only done it one year the correct way, I can barely hold my own.

Now my original sensei didn't pretend to be a master, he was just teaching what he knew to people interested and never lead us to believe that he was a high ranking anything. If I were you I'd do a lot of research. Anyone that calls themself "Master _____" and wasn't awarded the title by an art that's been around for hundreds of years is a very questionable person. If you're doing this for fun and exercise that's great, but Master Dav's teaching this under the auspice of it being a true martial art. That's far worse than my original path. If you have other options near you like Kendo, Iaido, Kobudo, or Aikido I highly suggest that you go check them out. Unless Master Dav achieved the highest ranks possible in the arts he tried to combine he is not qualified to use them to create something new.

Trust me, get on the right path now, and you'll be so happy you did. Otherwise you might find yourself starting over after 17 years like I did.