Bad Keiko

[Matthew Lagden]

Any ideas for how to lift your spirits/psyche yourself after a disappointing/poor Keiko (I mean one where you feel you underperformed or could have done better for some reason)?

I came away from last nights Keiko feeling really upset with myself, and now i'm already getting anxious about the next one. I don't want to get into a vicious circle of anxiety and underperformance.

Thanks guys

[GMason]

Matthew,

I know exactly how you feel....... there have been a couple of times where I have really felt like quitting. I'm not just talking being pissed off with myself at being crap. But I have really felt like selling my bogu and quitting Kendo.

The only thing you can do is "Suck it up" as the American's say and continue, you can often find that your next practice is very good and can be one of your best ever.

I have also been told that this is where you should go back to basic's and practice the things you should be doing as second nature.

This is why alot of people say Kendo is character building. Because it tests you and your ability to push yourself beyond where you would normally quit.

I hope this makes sense as I have just been to the pub and had a couple of beers.

[Charlie]

Gareth, very well put. Many times I have said to myself: "If all I'm going to be at kendo is mediocre, then why don't I just quit?" But you keep pushing through, and you come out stronger. You really do. Don't forget all that Zen stuff about detachment!

[alexpollijr]

Everyone suffers from 'bad dojo day'(R) from time to time. I frequently do. That's what Mason said, suck it in, think about it, and try again next practice, this is how to learn after all.

I still remember my first days wearing kendogu. I was always tense before practice and disappointed after, but after a while that feeling disappeared. Just give it time (a lot of).

It's not of much help, but cheer up and go ahead.

Alex Polli

[David J]

Hi Matthew

I dont know how long you've been doing Kendo, but I'm guessing you've gone into bogu fairly quickly. I know I'm very tempted, especially after a fairly unchallenging session in the beginners group, but I am determined only to wear full armour when I feel I have (reasonably) cracked the basics.

Maybe you should come back down to the "shallow end" for a while to restore your confidence, maybe until that feels too easy, then men-up again. I'm sure you've noticed that more experienced members of Hizen have the occasional session in the beginners group to re-evaluate their Kihon.

If its any consolation Jeff Sensei has said to me that for many people, the transition into wearing Men can be quite horrendous, so I'm sure you're not alone. And as others have said, you dont learn much from easy sessions, its the rock-hard ones that you dont forget.

Keep going...

<rei>

Dave

[supernils]

After rain there's sunshine

[Matthew Lagden]

Hi David - and thanks to you all for your thoughtful and encouraging posts.

Partly yeah of course, I am not going to give up, so i do need to just get back in the saddle and keep going. Anything worth doing is difficult so i will persevere.

I do feel like i have been hovering on the edge of wearing bogu for a long time now - going into the main group in Bogu, and then dropping back out into the beginners group, which i guess is part of the frustration - i feel like I am being overtaken by others who stsrted at the same time which is not really a very kendo way of looking at things - i should be concentrating on my own practise not worrying about other people.

However, I do think my bad practise has highlighted a weakness in my basics - not just footowork and Men cuts etc, but also things like general fitness, and little things like getting contact lenses so my glasses don't steam up.

So i guess you are right - it is the hard/bad practises where you really learn....

[GMason]

Matthew,

I don't know about yourself, but perosnally the biggest obstical to overcome before I felt totally happy in Bogu (and this problem still comes through in my Kendo now), was worrying about being hit. This seems to be the biggest mental barrier that anyone who starts Kendo has.

You learn by being hit

I am only talking from my personal experiences, but you have to forget about other people and get on with your own Kendo.

As you said you shouldn't look at other people that started at the same time as you, but it is only natural. I know, at my last grading down at mumeshi's I passed with three other Kendoka from "U'p Nrth", and even though I shouldn't. I always find myself looking to them and thinking why are they better than me at that ! .... or I can do that better then themat that . As you said you shouldn't really but hey it human nature to be competitive and beat others around you. Having said that, it is always good to have others to measure yourself by. But this is only good as long as you are better than them (I have found that out the hard way)

[Achilles]

Matthew,

I will be less encouraging than the others. Kendo/kumdo is *not* for everyone. There are some folks who lack the physical and mental wherewithal to pursue this discipline.

There is *no* shame in trying the sport and deciding that it is not for you. You need to carefully examine your motives for participating and your relative performance. It may very well be that you are worthy swordsman and simply had a bad night. . .

. . . but it may also very well be that you are not cut out for bladework. If this is the case, you might want to consider frankly facing that and moving on to something where your abilities are better put to use.

Remember: There is *no* shame in honestly facing a decision like that. I did the very same thing as a boxer. It was hard, but I was proud of myself in the end for having the courage to honestly decide that it was not for me.

We had a saying at my old dojo. We called it the 1 in 10 rule. For every 10 people who begin to practice kendo or kumdo, only 1 is still practicing after 1 year's time. The fact remains that *most* people who try this sport on find it fits them poorly.

Best of luck whatever you should decide.

[Kuri]

Hi Matthew

Looking at your profile, you say you've been training around a year. Also said "hovering on the edge of wearing bogu for a long time now". How often do you train? If you don't train consistently, then your not giving your self a fair chance. Just like any skill, you need to practise to make it a subconscience action. If you have been training consistently, maybe you're at the threshold of making a "jump" in your kendo ability (ie getting some coordination and fluidity in your techniques). You maybe subconsciencely becoming aware of your technique (or lack of) and becoming frustrated. This is a positive; an awareness of your ability and desire to improve.

Hope this help (and hope it's clear :p )

[Matthew Lagden]

these are all good, fair points - this is an excellent forum.

it is hard to know isn't it? I don't practise enough i think - or not as much as i would like to anyway. i am not as fit as i would like to be - or as i should be.

i sometimes feel that i am on the edge of making a leap - for brief moments it comes together and that is an amazing feeling.

and when i really think deeply about the keiko that prompted this there were moments in the 'beginning middle' (after warm up, before tiredness) when it did feel good and i was practising well.

so fitness is a major issue i think.

but also, i think, it is not my job, it is a hobby, i don't need to be so competitive - if i'm never all that good but i enjoy it, that's okay.

what an amazingly beguling and frustrating thing this is. and to think that i started it thinking it was a cross between yoga and aerobics for boys.

[8 Chips]

Matthew,
I believe we have all experienced a bad day at the dojo, I know I have more than once. I try to look for the positives that came out of the keiko, even if it seems there are none. One way to look at it is, as a lesson in humility. A bad keiko will always make you try so much harder at the next practice. This can never be a bad thing.
Keep practicing.

[JSchmidt]

"and to think that i started it thinking it was a cross between yoga and aerobics for boys."

Well, it isnt that far off :D

Jakob

[James]

Mattew - first congratulations on a very honest question - and one that everyone has to face.

Kendo makes us confront ourselves in ways that are more (let's say) 'intense' than most situations in our modern working day lives.
A big part of that is self-doubt and frustration (just wait until you are going for shiai and gradings!)
You are putting yourself into a situation where someone is going to win and someone is going to lose. (no rambling replies about 'it's the taking part..' etc. puhlease!) this comes with a certain ammount of confronting our egos. But this is the value of pursuits such as kendo IMHO - putting ourselves on the line in a way we don't have to do in our normal lives.
Kendo consists of some very simple looking movements that take a lifetime to perfect.
Dissappointment is part of kendo (and any activity that takes time to master) you have to embrace it fairly early and realise it is going to be a constant companion. HOWEVER it is all well worth it for that sweet men cut, that you ARE going to get, and probably on someone who is your senior now. And the beer aftwards is going to taste just great.

You will hear fifth dans muttering about how they gave away an easy kote and verbally kicking themselves after a shiai - so it's not just you.

When you are feeling confused, I suggest you concentrate on one aspect of your kendo you are going to improve per session, and work diligently on basics. And as Gareth has said, don't worry about getting hit, just concentrate on your own kendo.

Keep going,







:D

[mingshi]

Hi Matthew~ Don't be so frustrated. Did I miss some cuts on you yesterday? :p

The worse keiko ever for me(until now), is on the 25th Jan 2002. I don't think it's MY FAULT because at that time there wasn't any younger/less experienced kendoka around.... "Bad Kendo" is the comment I've written down on my journal. And probably because someone told me this:

"I've been here for so long. So don't you think that you can beat me!"
"I'm 42 right now. How come you're so slow at 1/2 my age?"

Everything I felt bad about my Kendo practice, was not because "I'm crap", but more because of some discouraging comments from other people... Sometimes I can be very emotional:rolleyes:

But I've passed that stage. Now I don't really care about other people. Just do my job. End of class. Happy Kendo.

[David J]

Hey Mingshi

Maybe they were trying to be encouraging in their own way..? (or maybe not....)

Was this at Nenriki or Hizen?

<rei>

Dave

[James]

David,
if someone relates a bad experience (which is valid) and is politic enough to not name names; why you are asking in a public forum which dojo it was in is beyond me, also you then associate 2 dojos with this negative experience, one of which YOU KNOW could not be involved (she has mentioned the date of the incident).
It is easy enough to discuss these experiences without encouraging personal mudslinging. If you want to gossip, use the private messaging.

Mingshi - I am hoping this was said as some kind of encouragement, (maybe amateur reverse psychology). The good news is, you ARE going to be much faster, and can enjoy whooping his ass one day. :D

j

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
Any ideas for how to lift your spirits/psyche yourself after a disappointing/poor Keiko (I mean one where you feel you underperformed or could have done better for some reason)?

I came away from last nights Keiko feeling really upset with myself, and now i'm already getting anxious about the next one. I don't want to get into a vicious circle of anxiety and underperformance.

Thanks guys

Don't worry too much about it dude, for me a bad experience is actually a good experience because from our bad experiences we are able to identify what we are doing wrong, therefore you will know for the future what you must rectify.

[David J]

I have PM'ed James about this.

Just to be clear - I wished to imply nothing bad in any way about either dojo, both of which have fine reputations, I was merely interested in Mingshi's experience. I wish no mud to be slung.

Apologies for any misunderstanding

<rei>

Dave

[durrell4]

It is completely normal to have good and bad days. I have had days where our beginners seem so strong and I think wow, I must suck or they're getting much better. As you get more experienced you find that bad days are very good for personal kendo growth. On those days I work on Semme and projecting strengh to help me, even if I feel off, I can muddle through the practice and still learn form it.

[lewis]

Matthew,

IMHO this should be dealt with in the end of practice mokuso. I try to quickly 'accept' that it was a good practice or bad practice, and then 'let go' of whether it was a good practice or bad practice by recognizing that it really doesn't matter which.

Generally, I feel it is important to allow yourself to have bad days and accept them (but then learn from them). Otherwise, you will get into that rut of making each practice worse than the last because of the stress you are placing on yourself. Nothing ruins good kendo more than stress.

[tetsuoxb]

I say suck it up. If kendo was easy then it wouldn't be fun. Part of what makes kendo a rewarding life experience is the natural progression in skill.

A bad practice is good every once and a while, it humbles you. Especially in college clubs, it is sometimes easy to get a top dog mentality when there are lots of beginners below you.. it sounds to me that you are in a club with many people above you, like a reverse situation... the point being, if you are constantly being humbled, then look for the good and work on the bad, when a good practice comes, celebrate the day, and forget it the next. When a bad practice come, file the thoughts in the "needs for improvement" and get back to business.

Right around my year anniversary of practice I asked Katoaka sensei of the NYC Kendo Club what to do in your very situation, when I am discouraged and dont feel I am improving. He told me one thing: Kirikaeshi.

Today I am struggling with my footwork and syncing it completely with my suburi. The milliseconds it is off on video bothers me, and every practice is discouraging because I am improving so slowly. However, sensei told me that he will do hundreds of men and be happy with maybe one or two. Maybe it is best to be happy with what you do well and vow to do better on what you aren't.

I guess to sum it up, Kendo is something much more than a bad practice or a good practice. Kendo is the definition of dedication. If you cant muster the dedication to march through the trials, then all is lost. But if you know that today is just a prelude to tomorrow, then everything will be ok.

After every practice, I ask myself how today's effort effects my kendo tomorrow and how it effects my kendo 10 years from now. I think this is the proper attitude.

[James]

Katoaka sensei of the NYC Kendo Club what to do in your very situation, when I am discouraged and dont feel I am improving. He told me one thing: Kirikaeshi.

That's perfect!

BTW. Dave, yes I am sure you didn't mean anything bad. And I know you love your kendo and your club, but think how your comment sounds to people that train in those clubs, as well as to people who don't know about them, I hope you'll understand.

[kendokamax]

Kendo is hard, even if you have a bad or a good day it is always hard to practice seriously on a regular basic. Also when things are going too good....(well you think it's going too good) I feel there is something wrong. I don't like having overconfidence in my kendo, it happened sometimes during some practices when I felt very good in jikeiko.. But I try to get back on earth and tell myself that my kendo is far of being perfect. The problem is you can't see yourself practicing !

Bad kendo days happens quite often to me...when during keiko nothing is working I feel tired...etc...at these time sometimes I will try a big technique, going back on strong basics. If it works it gives me confidence for the rest of the class, if not I go cry in a corner.

Bad or good kendo day.....I always do carefull.

But the best way is to keep on training regulary!

happy kendo!

[Matthew Lagden]

What an excellent series of posts! I'm glad i took the risk (not that i seriously thought i'd be flamed in this forum, but...) as i feel reinvigorated.

I took the time over the weekend to write up my kendo journal, and to really think about why i felt bad, and what had really happened.

i took too much outside stuff (work worries etc) into the dojo with me which i think definitely impeded me - too much weight on my shoulders.

people at the dojo (where i have found everyone to be very supportive and encouraging) have said on occasion that my kendo is fine/okay/improving but that i am too tense.

and part of that is i realise, that i am afraid of being hit. I know it is natural, but still, at that moment when you know the shinai is going to strike your men, i flinch.

i haven't liked to admit that to myself because i felt like that was kinda weak, but from reading the other posts, i guess most people go through that.

so, although i nearly chickened out this morning when packing my bag ("theres stuff to do round the house/i've got calls to make/work to do....") i'm packed and ready for Keiko tonight.

[Confound]

After i have a disappointing keiko session, I usually go home, beat myself up psychologically, then realize that such behaviour doesn't help at all. after that, I go out and do excessive suburi. if keiko is problematic, it sometimes helps to focus on the smaller things, the ones you know. it ends up improving your kendou as well as your confidence.

c

[inner_cent]

Like some of the people said about, I agree, moving from beginner to start wearing a "men", ther eis a big difference, and big gap in differences. When you are beginner and without a bogou, error/bad habit can be identified easily and rictify. I know some beginners who have very bad kihon, but still go ahead with wearing bogou. This doesn't help their kendo. However, somes, you must have some confident for yourself. Without wearing the bogou, you will not be able to advance to the next level. Also, you will also cannot train on your physical stamina, etc etc.

As for afraid been hit ? I was told once, people always go through this vicious cycle... I have gone through once and out .... but I feel I might run into one again. However, you will find, once you gone through these difficulty time (could be days, weeks or months), but eventually, you will provail. Then you will be at teh next level of your kendo.

For me, when I have a dissappointed keiko, i spent the time before next training, thinking about "what did I do wrong" .... study myself, and thinking to myself. Sometimes, once you analys yourself, you will discover a whole new world.... will eventually help you in the future...

[ben]

I find it helpful to remember that we don't have to die in keiko any more. The ego might, but at least the body doesn't.

b

[Matthew Lagden]

thanks to all your comments, encouraging, discouraging, and neutral i was able to gather myself and do a good keiko - not that my kendo was especially better than previously, but that i was able to analyse what is good and what is not, to provide a basis for future work, thought, and practise.

so thank you all!

[Matthew Lagden]

whoever gave this thread five stars, thank you! i am pathetically happy about it!

I couldn't have done it....

<cries like Gwyneth Paltrow>

[KENSHIN]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
whoever gave this thread five stars, thank you! i am pathetically happy about it!

I couldn't have done it....

<cries like Gwyneth Paltrow>

Its actually four stars....:D :D :D

[Kendoboy]

I know I'm a bit late coming in on this, but better late than never....

I'm a beginner (at it for about a month now), and I find that the amount of info can be really confusing. In response to matthew's original wories, I find that I am constantly thinking about my foot position (is it right?) my shinai (am I lifting it high enough?) my back/shoulders (are they straight?) etc, etc. If I have a "bad practice", it's because I have been thinking too much about the details, instead of relaxing (very important) and letting everything flow smoothly and come naturally, with time.

I know my problems are beginners problems, but you are more advanced, and thus have new problems to deal with, and I imagine that the same feelings of self doubt would arise. Also, if I have had a bad day at work (stress, etc) I sometimes find that my head is in a fog, and I can't wrap my head around some new concepts. You may well feel the same way.

Also, I feel the need to stick up for some (notice I said 'some') of the beginners that Dave J is speaking of. Most of us try very hard to pay attention, and 'line up' but occationally our minds can wander. for example: look at the more experienced people, does my men cut look like theirs? (or more importantly sensei jeffs?) We know the drop out rate of new students, and most of us want to show how committed we are, and can put ourselves under a lot of pressure. So many rules, so many waza....

Put yourself in our shoes for a moment. You were there once....

[James]

I know my problems are beginners problems...
we'll all be working on our footwork, shinai work, shoulders etc. until armageddon or we stop kendo, whichever comes first (or both, as in 'armageddon outta here!').

IMHO it's about learning to focus. At first there IS a lot to take in...eventually we begin to understand what we should be doing, then the problem of actually doing it.
Agree 'mind wondering in beginners etc.' I choose to believe it's not out of disrespect, or laziness, but due to lapse of concentration and unfamiliarity with the surroundings. Observant beginners soon plug into what is happening in the dojo and take responsibility for their own efforts/behaviour, (and reap the rewards).
(that goes for missed DO cuts and other things that get complained about in some threads, most people are trying their best, they're just not good at it yet).

Luckily it is a life-long pursuit, and you can focus on what you need to. If sensei stresses a specific point ,focus on that / in kakari-geiko you can let yourself fly with the best effort at your current level /i f you know something needs work prioritise it in appropriate keiko. If in doubt , back to basic kihon.

You don't have to do everything at once, it's organic, with lots of advances and knock-backs to come.

The good news is you improve, the bad news is (if you are working hard) I doubt it gets much 'easier'. :alien:

[Matthew Lagden]

And progress can be glacial. This is something that it can be hard to come to terms with - there are occasional breakthroughs but often progress is made in tiny incremental steps.

For many westerners i think the whole experience of Kendo can be overwhelmingly alien - both the atmosphere and rules of the Dojo, and the techniques and disciplines of Kendo - and i think there can be so much to focus on that people are bit disorientated - and hence out of anxiety, talk or appear not to be concentrating.

Once you know how and where to stand, and other elements of Dojo etiquette, that seems to stop of its own accord.

as for worrying about footwork etc - i don't think that ever stops. at keiko the other night, one of the seniors did what looked to me like the most beautiful Do cut one could imagine.

But then our Sensei stepped in and pointed out that his feet were too wide apart, and i looked and thought, "oh yes he's right"

[toreisu]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
...i took too much outside stuff (work worries etc) into the dojo with me which i think definitely impeded me - too much weight on my shoulders....


I agree. My worst practices have been on days when I took my "outside life" into the dojo. I'm glad you still packed your bags and went to keiko despite any worries or reservations, though. It's extremely hard to do some days, but if nothing else goes right in the dojo that day, you can at least be satisfied that you didn't give up or chicken out.

If I've had a bad day and know I'm - potentially - setting myself up for disaster at practice, I try to shake it off before stepping into the dojo. If I still feel the day's baggage hanging on after I've stepped in the dojo, I use the mokusou time before beginning practice to try one last time to shake it off - if mokusou goes pretty quickly in your dojo, take a minute to do mokusou or some other meditation on your own before practice begins. If that doesn't work either, I just concentrate on not making it a bad practice for others. In the end, if I can't shake my bad mood, I don't want that to affect others by getting angry, lazy, sloppy etc., because that could result in unnecessary injury, aggravation and frustration for others. That being said, though, some of my best practices have come out of bad days like that and the only explanation I have for this is that I tend to relax more/think less when I give up on expectations of a good practice.

[Confound]

Kendoboy,

It's a good sign that you're thinking of those things. Though they may lead to distraction, and you may be focussing too much on them. There is a time and place for those kinds of questions about technique and form. During suburi, any footwork exercises your dojo does (which noone has mentioned yet) you should be extra conscious of your body. Also, during waza practice, you should make sure that you're hitting the best strike you possibly can.

However, in kakarikeiko, jigekeiko and other parts of keiko that imitate shiai, focus more on the attacking part of your technique. Those drills are made for increasing your stamina, your kiai, confidence and your ability to spot an opening. during those parts of keiko, don't worry so much about your feet, or your back.

I'm not saying (as some will immediately flame if i don't include this disclaimer) that you should ignore those elements in kakarikeiko. I am only pointing out that in these kinds of drills, the uppermost thing in your mind should be the attack itself, and responding to the attack. Though I doubt you will run into this in Canada, some sensei will not tolerate a missed shot in kakarikeiko. If they leave an opening for say dou, and you hit kote instead, you may find yourself on your bottom, with an aching spot on your wrist, head or neck. This kind of training definately encourages a rapid learning curve.

c