Wrist twisting...

[Hattori Hanzo]

I am sure there is a proper term for this...but could somebody offer up some advice I am trying to get that technique down where when you swing your wrists are at the front..but having a bit of difficulty keeping it in a fluid motion when I try to do this in suburi, I always fall out of synch with everybody else.

Any advice would be much appreciated as always, thanks :)

[Ross]

I always fall out of synch with everybody else.
Do you really have to be in sync with everybody else..... it is your Kendo, do it at your pace.

Our Sensei always says rather do it slow and correctly, than fast and baddly.

Ross

[Kendo ISB]

to Ross- Usually masters say Basics have to be 100% identical (but different folk, different stroke @_@) that means same speed, timing etc. After fighting starts, then basics change.

To Hattori Hanzo- what do u mean? An attack where its in 2 phases instead of one? Im not quite understanding....just stick with the normal swing :P

[xvikingx]

To Hattori Hanzo- what do u mean? An attack where its in 2 phases instead of one? Im not quite understanding....just stick with the normal swing :P
I think he is talking about tenouchi.

[Hattori Hanzo]

That is it, where you twist your wrist for that final explosion before the strike.

[xvikingx]

Sorry, I do not know nearly enough to tell you about tenouchi. The "wrist twisting" thing you are talking about, has always been described to me as being like wringing out a wet rag.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Your hands should not move on the shinai, it sounds like you're trying to move them around or something. Try to keep everything relaxed throughout your swing until the last third or so, when your arms straighten. At the final moment, as your arms completely straighten out, your wrists move inward like you're trying to wring out a wet towel. At contact, both arms should be straight, both shoulders should be relaxed, and the towel-wringing motion (tenouchi) should cause the tip to stop crisply. But this is not all going to come at once, so just practice some more and get your sensei to check to make sure you're headed in the right direction.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Thanks Neil,

I appreciate it dude, I have been trying it is like one of the tougher things.

[Chopstix]

Your hands should not move on the shinai, it sounds like you're trying to move them around or something. Try to keep everything relaxed throughout your swing until the last third or so, when your arms straighten. At the final moment, as your arms completely straighten out, your wrists move inward like you're trying to wring out a wet towel. At contact, both arms should be straight, both shoulders should be relaxed, and the towel-wringing motion (tenouchi) should cause the tip to stop crisply. But this is not all going to come at once, so just practice some more and get your sensei to check to make sure you're headed in the right direction.

As a beginner who is still trying to grasp the execution of tenouchi, is it common to find the kensen bouncing a little bit sometimes even when tenouchi is executed per instructions, especially during big swings? I'm referring to suburi cuts.

[Old Warrior]

I have read much on the importance and technique for good tenouchi. Of course, all of the material relates to itto [right word?] (1 sword/2 hands). I have searched around for information on the proper nito grip, swing, hand position etc. - and there is virtually nothing out there. I have Matthew Raymonds tape, but it doesn't go into the small subject of grip. Raymond Sensei has large, strong hands and he commands the shinai as if its weightless. Stopping a cut with one hand requires a whole new set of muscles that are slow to develope (at least at my age) and the pressure on the involved fingers is considerable with thumb callousing a problem (in nito the hand must be relaxed or you couldn't hold it up too long and the thumb seems to have more importance than in a 2 hand grip). Any thoughts on this subject?

[JSchmidt]

Any thoughts on this subject?

Speaking from a jodan perspective, you hold the shinai pretty much exactly as in chudan, with the only real different is that the wrist is more straight (in hand/forerarm relation, not shinai).
You mainly grip it with your pinkie and use progressibly less strength on the other fingers, pretty much as you would in chudan.
You need to keep the handle going diagonally across the palm..if it becomes a square grip, you'll end up clubbing, not cutting.

Jakob

[samurai999]

As a beginner who is still trying to grasp the execution of tenouchi, is it common to find the kensen bouncing a little bit sometimes even when tenouchi is executed per instructions, especially during big swings? I'm referring to suburi cuts.

My sensei told me to think of it as throwing out a fishing line. You get the "whip action" on the fishing line similarly to what you get on a shinai. It's just less noticeable.

Tim

[Chopstix]

So you're saying that, at the end of the swing with proper tenouchi execution, some vibrations are common and acceptable?

[Rick Danger]

So you're saying that, at the end of the swing with proper tenouchi execution, some vibrations are common and acceptable?

another beginner here..

I don't think there should be any vibration. Normally, that happens when you use too much strenght with your right arm. If you focus your strenght with a well-centered left arm there will be no vibration, no matter how fast you swing.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Raymond Sensei has large, strong hands and he commands the shinai as if its weightless.
Yeah, he's super-strong just in general.
paraphrase - how to stop a cut single-handed?
I think grip is essential. You have to make sure that your wrist is positioned well - the line of the string should extend to bisect the V made by your thumb and forefinger. This places your wrist above the tsuka.

Many people hold the shinai so that the tsuka is across the middle of the palm, and the end of the tsuka is between the heel of the palm and the base of the thumb. When you swing in this way, the base of the thumb is what prevents the end of the shinai from levering out of your hand. However there is a lot of slop there - as you swing back, the tsuka slips into your fingers and then as you come forward the tsuka swings back up against the base of your thumb. A better way is to grip more in the fingers. When you do this, your pinky and ring finger are holding the tsuka against the heel of the palm. I changed to this grip some years ago and it works much better, although it is hard at first and if your kote is already broken into the other grip it makes it even tougher.

Lastly, if you aren't already make sure the power of your grip is coming from your pinky and ring finger. If you are used to fencing, you would have gripped with thumb and forefinger and used the other fingers for subtle tip manipulation. In kendo, it's the opposite, we are looking for maximum wrist manoueverability, and that comes from a grip with the smaller fingers.

This advice applies to single handed grip and double handed grip, but it's even more important for single handed, where a proper grip with no slop makes a big difference to how crisp your technique can be.

If moocow or tenken are listening in perhaps they have more advice or different advice. I'm only a casual jodan player.

[Old Warrior]

"Lastly, if you aren't already make sure the power of your grip is coming from your pinky and ring finger. If you are used to fencing, you would have gripped with thumb and forefinger and used the other fingers for subtle tip manipulation. In kendo, it's the opposite, we are looking for maximum wrist manoueverability, and that comes from a grip with the smaller fingers."

I know, I know, I know!!! The trouble is that when you have to stop the forward momentum in a 1 hand cut, tremendous pressure is put on the lower digits. The wrist must be locked (at the point of farthest allowable extension) and your forward momentum must bring your hand to the fulcrum point. Otherwise, your elbow joint takes an unbelievable amount of strain and the shinai winds up with kensen on the floor. And, with the better kenshi, when you miss - you're toast.

I am a student of the physiology and body mechanics that it takes to do this right. The problem is that much of this is only internalized slowly over time. At first, (and still) the problem is to cut on center. If you have to think about it, you loose sight of everything else and get hammered. Once I developed a fairly good cut, it didn't do much good because everyone saw it coming. Then, I was exhorted to learn to use the shoto, both to block and move the opponent off center. I started to get a bit more formidable when I learned to turn a seemingly straight "men cut" into something else. Then, as opponents "blocked" they exposed kote and even do.

But now, I see that my basics still need a world of improvement and I am concentrating on the "grip" and the basic cut (AGAIN and always). I may get it right sometime in my next lifetime.

[samurai999]

So you're saying that, at the end of the swing with proper tenouchi execution, some vibrations are common and acceptable?

I have some "vibration" at the end of my swings, but they are usually small and unnoticeable. Ideally, the shinai would stop after you complete your swing. Compared to a fishing pole, a shinai is MUCH stiffer at the end so there shouldn't be any vibration. But, the idea is similar.

If you hit another person on the men (or shinai if you are doing swings without your men), there should be a small bounce off the other person's men (or shinai).

Tim

[Chopstix]

Rightio - I'll try that at training. :)

And Neil's right - the grip does make alot of difference.

[mkomoto]

In the current issue of KW (in the mail now) there is an extensive article on Kendo Elbow, or elbow extension posterior compartment syndrome in Kendo. As well as elbow extension, there is a great deal on the biomechanics of striking, including the whys and hows of the moment of impact, muscle recruitment, and employment of antagonistic muscles. It may be of interest to you. Please see the regular column: Kendo Clinic.

mkomoto

[Hai_hai]

I am sure there is a proper term for this...but could somebody offer up some advice I am trying to get that technique down where when you swing your wrists are at the front..but having a bit of difficulty keeping it in a fluid motion when I try to do this in suburi, I always fall out of synch with everybody else.

Any advice would be much appreciated as always, thanks :)

Falling out of sync with everybody else? Do you mean that you are falling behind in the count during a group drill? That's just plain slowness. You need to work on speed and form. This is something you just need to practice on and always ask for pointers from your sensei and sempai.

[JSchmidt]

OW, there's a picture (and japanese description) of the jodan grip here:
http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Jodanwaza/p151.jpg

[Old Warrior]

JS

It's the lower left picture that is helpful. But, seeing how the grip looks at the end of the cut and having the hand/finger strength to do it right, over and over - is a whole other kettle of fish.

[ralphy]

I appreciate it dude

So do I. The information on this thread and these boards in general is very excellent.