Why do we go forward?

[Charlie]

Long time no post, guys! So sorry about that. Question for you all (before I dig into the Noma reader and such). Why do we "go forward?" Why do kendo cuts suriashi or ayumi-ashi, galloping through or past the opponent when cutting?

Is it a concession to competitive kendo, to sport? I know nothing like this movement in my admittedly small knowledge of iai and what little I have seen of classical kenjutsu. Instead, you step and cut, and get ready to cut again or what have you. Thoughts?

[Halcyon]

At first I thought, "Of course you go forward. What else are you gonna do, go backward?" And then the more I thought about it the less obvious it became. Darn you Charlie with your brain teasers! Here's my stab at an explanation.

I think we can all agree that one of the fundamental principles of JSA is ki-ken-tai-no-itchi. Since you mentioned the Noma reader, the following appears in the section on footwork:

Musashi also wrote the following in Heiho Sanjugo Kajo:
Concerning two legs, the two legs mean that for one strike of the sword both legs are carried along. When bearing onto the other man's sword, when retreating or when stepping forward or back, the legs move as one. This is what is known as bringing up the rear foot. Stepping only on one foot upon each strike with the sword, your movement will be confined and unable to react properly.

Now, some iaido koryu do NOT pull up the back leg, but for the purposes of kendo, let us assume that hikitsuke is necessary to achieve ki-ken-tai. If that's true, you must at least take one step with both feet for a good cut.

Secondly, in kendo the issoku-itto-no-ma is generally farther apart than issoku-itto with bokuto or shinken. Therefore, you get this motion of fumikomi, which is partly due to trying to reach a greater distance by jumping. Therefore, the momentum will tend to carry you forward, which will probably result in more than one step. So you've got the conditions for at least a couple of suriashi steps (since you have to pull up that back leg.)

Thirdly, if you are indeed a couple of steps from your opponent after striking (or attempting to strike), then you need to worry about what your opponent's next move is, so it's safer to keep moving forward until you can get out of his range.

And hence the galloping forward after a strike. QED.

[Neil Gendzwill]

With swords or shinai, what happens if you miss and you are still standing there? Looks like kata #1 to me...

[Kent Enfield]

Why do we "go forward?" Why do kendo cuts suriashi or ayumi-ashi, galloping through or past the opponent when cutting?Because in modern kendo, one needn't worry about ashibarai, ashigarami, or the like. It's a "defense" against being cut after missing that takes advantage of the rules against tripping and grappling. It also lets one travel the distance to strike more quickly by not having to decelerate at the end of the motion.

You don't see the run-through in videos of prewar kendo or read about it in prewar kendo texts.

[DCPan]

Maybe this is an oversimplification on my part, but I've always thought of it as:

1. An expression of pushing cut (oshi-giri).

2. Zanshin...not being where you were to avoid potential ai-uchi like result.

[DCPan]

You don't see the run-through in videos of prewar kendo or read about it in prewar kendo texts.

Yeah...even now, most of the kendo texts do not list fumikomi ashi as one of the four basic kendo footwork...you just have ayuri, okuri, hikari, and tsugi-ashi.

I think the first time I saw fumikomi ashi mentioned as a type of footwork was in Ando Hosou sensei's book, Kendo Jodatsu-Ho.

[stealth_monkey]

With swords or shinai, what happens if you miss and you are still standing there? Looks like kata #1 to me...

While I've never performed number one fast enough to approach "real life" speed, why then do we go forward, rather than say backwards or to the side? Imagining it in my head suggests that moving forward after the cut would open you up to a greater extent than stepping backwards.

I've always been taught that moving forward shows commitment to the cut, and that hesitating by moving back or to the side shows weak spirit. But I've never thought of the historical origins of the movement itself. Definitely interested to see how this thread progresses.

[b8amack]

Maybe this is an oversimplification on my part, but I've always thought of it as:

1. An expression of pushing cut (oshi-giri).

2. Zanshin...not being where you were to avoid potential ai-uchi like result.

I'm with you on the first one. For the zanshin, you're not just going forward, you're moving on. Or at least that's where I'm at with it.

[hl1978]

I always figured it was something related to modern kendo rules. I think Kent covered it.

You don't need to step forwards to cut, (the video of Iwata sensei should be proof enough). You certainly don't need to go forwards to express zanshin. Iai teaches cutting while stepping backwards too.

[AndreiB]

You don't see the run-through in videos of prewar kendo or read about it in prewar kendo texts.
Are there prewar kendo texts floating around transcribed into English?

[Fudo-Shin]

FWIW, I think that alot of kendo is symbolic and as such does not require 'too much' thinking, just doing until it becomes a natural part of your psyche. I see in alot of the old texts (thank god for translators), alot of emphasis is put on the mind not stopping and being contained at any one point, IMO going through, in part, symbolizes that and forces you to employ it to an extent. Then there are the practical reasons like what Neil has mentioned, also if you stopped there you cannot have had much faith in your initial attack. I don't think I'm really qualified to be commenting on the mindset/s that should be employed at different stages of kendo, my comments are purely my opinion in an attempt to answer Charlie's line of thought provoking questioning. I will just continue to train as sensei sees fit and do my best to fulfill the criteria...:happy:

[ben]

Are there prewar kendo texts floating around transcribed into English?

Try this:

http://kenshi247.net/blog/category/series/prewarkendo/

b

[Charlie]

I think you guys are pretty much nailing it. It just seemed to me that in kata and iai, you only take one or two steps forward, don't you? One step into maai, one step cut, now wait and see what happens next. But because of the length of shinai, you have to take the lunging step more, and now you're quite close to the opponent, so you have to get the hell out of the way by going through or past.

Interesting comment about the prewar kendo. What were those matches like then? I've seen some video and it still looks like they are galloping forward.

[MikeW]

I just figured it was because in kendo you are actually battling, in kata and iaido you are not. In kata you never actually fulfill your cut but stop prior to contact. In iaido it is more concerned with unsheathing the sword and the first strike as opposed to a battle with another kenshi. Interesting to read the comments from everyone.

[Anorymous]

I was always assuming that it was like "in kendou, you are in a battle between armies, so you need to quickly leave your opponent and march forward towards the rest of the army".

Apparently, there isn't as much an "explanation" as "various mnemonics".

[Neil Gendzwill]

I was always assuming that it was like "in kendou, you are in a battle between armies, so you need to quickly leave your opponent and march forward towards the rest of the army".No. Whatever the reasons, it's not that.

[Gideon]

It just seemed to me that in kata and iai, you only take one or two steps forward, don't you? One step into maai, one step cut, now wait and see what happens next.

Nanahonme?

[Charlie]

Nanahonme?

Yes, true. You gotta get the hell outta there.

[hugo]

I hope that I'm not just jumping onto a dead horse here, but isn't the issue of going on past the opponent just a matter of zanshin and sutemi?
(As has been most recently referenced in other threads recently.)

Older Kendo still had some leg sweeping and grappling in it, and thus was a bit closer to actual combat. Since you can no longer legally do these things in a match, there's no point in being close, not that staying close to an opponent yielded much then either.

Even Olympic-style fencing has opponents staying their distance after a thrust. Animals also know to keep out of harm's reach. (That's not an attempted comparison!)

[b8amack]

Olympic fencing does have rules against passing your opponent, but that has more to do with the nature of the piste, as well as the wire hooked to your back, I believe, than an attempt for some sort of "combat realism." You still see people passing all the time however. It's untrue to say that fencers never close the distance with their opponents.

Also, if it was just a matter of there being no reason to be close, than there would be no tsubazeriai.

[dillon]

I did epee fencing back in the mid-90's in university. Around this time the FIE banned passing in sabre but not in the other two weapons. The sabre fleche attack was also banned. IIRC, the reason was the make it more spectator friendly and those two elements of sabre were considered to be the most difficult for spectators to grasp. I'm happy to be contradicted on this as I am speaking from memory.

[b8amack]

I'm the same, I did fencing in uni, but am no expert. I've seen stoppage for passing in epee (epee and saber were all I ever really did, so can't speak to foil). But again, I'm no expert. If I'm wrong there, I'm wrong.

[Missingno.]

It isn't against the rules to pass your opponent in fencing, but it stops the action. I don't know about saber and foil, but in epee if you fleche and don't get the hit, your opponent has one action to get a touch after you've passed him. In other words, if you pass him, he has a split second to turn around and hit you, much like how you have a split second to hit your opponent if he falls down or drops his shinai in kendo. Because of this, I always keep running until I'm out of range when I fleche.

In sabre, I was under the impression that it was made illegal to move your back foot in front of your front foot while moving forward because fencers would just run full speed at each other because of how the right of way rules worked.

[Halcyon]

I hope that I'm not just jumping onto a dead horse here, but isn't the issue of going on past the opponent just a matter of zanshin and sutemi?
Partly, yes, but not entirely. Take kote-uchi, for example. You don't need to run past your opponent for kote ippon. In fact, you don't need to run past your opponent even for men ippon. There are plenty of examples of someone striking men, going forward, bouncing off the opponent (not taiatari) and then showing zanshin as they take a few steps backward.

In other words, yes, you need sutemi and zanshin, but I think going forward has as much to do with the mechanics of modern kendo as it has to do with sutemi and zanshin. The ma-ai is greater in modern kendo because the shinai is longer than most katana. Because the ma-ai is greater, you must travel farther to reach your target. This creates more forward momentum, and hence it's more natural to keep traveling forward until you're out of your opponent's reach.

[enkorat]

Okay Charlie, I'll bite and take a stab and post for the first time in months.

The way that our mutual friend and sensei taught me about "always going forward" was much more philosophical and applied more towards one's attitude in approaching challenges in life and as well as in Kendo. Thus for what its worth, I'm inclined to believe that the idea of "always going through" may be more of a modern consideration in teaching children and young adults than the application of realistic swordwork.

In my view, it does not diminish its importance, at least to me, as I'm not personally exclusively interested in the mechanics of realistic sword manipulation and its "practical application".

[UnimportantHero]

Huh. I had kinda imagined it was like the Samurai movies. You cut the person right in half and then run through as the two pieces fall to the sides and spray out blood all over the place. I mean I know that is not the real reason but I explained it that way (in a humorous way, not a serious way) to my kōhai at one point because she was running around on the sides and I think it helped her to get the idea that she should pretty much run forward and through. I was wondering about the run through for awhile though, since it feels awkward for me still and I was unconsciously looking for reasons to avoid it I think, but this thread helps it make a lot more sense for me.

[b8amack]

I figured the samurai movies were based more on kendo than the reverse. All the time you see all those old manga artists drawing the showdown pass with the cut to the abdomen, I thought, "Ah, they learned kata 7 as kids."

[Charlie]

Okay Charlie, I'll bite and take a stab and post for the first time in months.

The way that our mutual friend and sensei taught me about "always going forward" was much more philosophical and applied more towards one's attitude in approaching challenges in life and as well as in Kendo. Thus for what its worth, I'm inclined to believe that the idea of "always going through" may be more of a modern consideration in teaching children and young adults than the application of realistic swordwork.

In my view, it does not diminish its importance, at least to me, as I'm not personally exclusively interested in the mechanics of realistic sword manipulation and its "practical application".

Well said.

[Paburo]

maybe it's for tactical reasons as well...? I mean... perhaps... if you miss a cut, it is safer to run a distance, then turn around and block/counter, than turn immediately after cutting.... the risk being, your opponent is in perfect maai to bash the shht out of you as you turn without even needing to move from his/her spot.

the same way in kote you either close the distance and stick to your opponent, or get the hell out of there....