girls vs. guys?

[muschio]

At the beggining I heard that kendo is for either men or women and that stuff, but at my dojo, things doesn't really go that way. My sensei makes girls buy their own bougu for example... and always gives preference on everything to the guys. My sensei doesn't even train women the same way that men, even tough he says the contrary.

Anybody been there?

[Kendo ISB]

Hmmm.....That is a rare case.....Kendo, most of the time is displayed as a man/woman sport. It doesn't matter about sex, height, or weight like in different sports. Usually anyone can fight anyone. I find it strange for you, but perhaps that just how your sensei teaches (shrug).
And everyone buys their own bogu right?

[meow]

Hi,

it sounds like your sensei has some kind of problem with women!?

You mentionend the sexual coloured comments from his side in the "drunken sensei" thread.

There is no reason why women should not be able to practice kendo or karate or every other sport. I have seen women in karate who were much tougher than some guys and they really scared me. In our kendo dojo we also have women and last thursday I watched the bogu class and a girl score ippon two times in shiai against a guy. So who says kendo is not for the girls...? :D

Never let you tell by anybody that you can´t do something because you are a girl. This is complete nonsense. Women can practice as hard as men can.

I admire your patience and that you continue kendo although you have to face such a lot of problems. There are a lot of other people who quit kendo out of minor problem. You seem to have real fighting spirit. I bow to that.

I hope you will find a dojo with a good sensei.

[Kendo ISB]

Ditto Meow, as for women, they tend to be weaker in the beginning. But thats just a cover up. This one girl, she worked on basic everyday....2 years later, she comes back and whoops 18/20 girls in the dojo i practice at. Only me, and my friend (who were there at the beginning) managed to fend her off. Women are fierce competitors, and i have lost to a few, and i have no shame in it.

[mystic_kendoka]

i think the reason some people say that kendo is for men/boys, is because its more violent, and stereotypically boys will generally be more interested in violent/stick-swinging involving activities...

so wat i am saying is, there are more boys interested in kendo than girls, but if a girl happens to be interested and enthusiastic about kendo, there is no reason why they should be less able than a boy...

[don_lubo]

Muschio i think your sensei is absolutely right. Of cource he doesn't train women the same way that men because there are too many differences between wimen and mans. Is there a girl who can do 250 kirikeshi?!?

[mystic_kendoka]

kendo normally doesnt require ANYBODY to do 250 kirikaeshis... the stereotype of men/women arent important in kendo, because u dont need superhuman strength, more important is speed/agility/brains...

if we were talking about weightlifting or some other sport like that, it would be fair to say that women have a disadvantage, but not in kendo, kendo can be done by everyone as long as they have an IQ of above at least 50...

[nodachi]

"Is there a girl who can do 250 kirikeshi?!?"

I would say yes. If an 80 year old can continue to do kendo and not seem to tire for an entire practice, anyone can, man or woman. It's about technique and not physical strength and that is why kendo is such a great thing.

The women in my club are quite good. They do their fair share of butt kicking. Anyone who trains or treats the women different from the men has a not very nice way of thinking.

[don_lubo]

Of cource kendo doesnt require ANYBODY to do 250 kirikaeshis but it also doesn't require to do 50 kirikaeshis and even 10. When you are training it is because you want that. So that's why the girls must not make a compliant when the others ignore them.

[Danny Boy]

The moment you put the men on, your sex, race, religion etc cease to matter. Only your kendo matters from that point on.

[meow]

Muschio i think your sensei is absolutely right. Of cource he doesn't train women the same way that men because there are too many differences between wimen and mans. Is there a girl who can do 250 kirikeshi?!?
I think so, yes!

You are a troll, right?

meow

[Rularn]

I think everyone is getting away from the topic at hand...

Muschio, there was another thread on these boards discussing the differences between how women wear a bogu. That may be the reasoning behind why your sensei requires women to purchase their own equipment as oppose to wearing an extra set. A bogu made for a women is a little bigger and wider for more protection around the top, if you know what I mean. You should check to see if there really is any difference between the bogu men and women are wearing at your dojo.

Secondly, training is somewhat different for men and women at the BEGINNING. Women tend to need to work harder to get used to the weight of the shinai and the constant swinging, etc etc. But once they reach that point, practice should be the same for everyone. And while it may seem unfair for a guy to do something different than a girl but started at the same time, it's really the instructor accommodating the different levels of mastery. I've worked with people who took quite awhile to be able to even do choyaku suburi and then I've worked with people who were able to wear a bogu in about 2 months after they started.

I'm not sure how long you have been practicing, but look to see what sensei is showing the guys versus gals. If everyone is in bogu and doing keiko and sensei is showing different things, there is a problem.

Hope that helps... the people I work with (men/women), I instruct all the same. But I will soon show some of the guys more stuff as they are ready for it.

[Catherine]

Hi,

My experience with learning myself and teaching both men and women is that women aren't taught any differently to men.

I also don't think that women need to work harder to cope with the weight of a shinai as women are allowed to use a lighter shinai (although a number of women choose not to).

I have found that what some women do find confronting is the kiai - I think that this comes from society's emphasis on 'nice girls don't yell or scream'. But then, some guys have trouble with kiai as well.

In Australia in the national open dan competition we have one woman reaching the quarter finals every year and about 3 women reaching the round before the quarter finals. About 10 years ago, there were 2 women fighting it out for third and fourth place in the dan open individual.

To me kendo is about strategy and using your strengths - whatever they may be - to best advantage. To do this you first need to work out what your strengths are and how they can be best used.

In the end, if you are not in the place your opponent expects you to be, you are unlikely to be cut.

Catherine

[muschio]

All the bougus on my dojo are the exact same, even the one that he sells to us (the women). That's why I find that particularly "weird". When I first post my question I forgot that perhaps it is not as financially difficult as in other countries to train kendo. Here, a bougu (the most economic one) with tax and the shipping included would go from 3 months of minimum salary up. That's why the Federation gave our sensei 10 bougus for the dojo... and none of them are lended to a women ever, even tough there are about 4 always available. Instead, Sensei give us two choices: buy one (from him) or stay out of keiko until we save enough in order to buy one.


Anyways, thank you to all of you for your support and comments. I really appreciate your comments and will proudly encourage the other two girls at my dojo to keep on, now that I know that we are not alone here.


Thanx again

[muschio]

Muschio i think your sensei is absolutely right. Of cource he doesn't train women the same way that men because there are too many differences between wimen and mans. Is there a girl who can do 250 kirikeshi?!?
In that case, I TOTALLY agree with you don_lubo since I can hardly do 150 kirikaeshi on a row... I'll also suggest to two or three of my kohais (guys) to quit since they are overweight and are regurarly in trouble when doing even sonkyo.

I thought that the macho perspective on kendo were rare (meaning my Sensei and perhaps other 10 guys around the world had it), but thank you for remainding me my mistake.

By the way, do you also think that women should cover their face when in public and always try to be at home being pregnant and raising children since they are most likely to fall into sin?

[moocow65]

Muschio i think your sensei is absolutely right. Of cource he doesn't train women the same way that men because there are too many differences between wimen and mans. Is there a girl who can do 250 kirikeshi?!?
don_lubo-chan........... I know alot of women around the world who can do that, and could probably kick your ass in 15 seconds too. I highly doubt you can do 250 kirikaeshi, and actually do them correctly. Quit being so damn ignorant. I would like to see you go against Kei Okada from Japan. She would tsuki you through the wall. My sensei, who's a woman, would run the 5000 or so steps of the Fushimi Inari Temple in Kyoto every morning. Tenken, Tenken's brother, and myself had a hard time just walking up those steps. Try educating yourself more about kendo before posting your opinions about it.

[Danny Boy]

Guys,

Don_Lubo is a "certified" troll, just ignore him.

[Mr.Tvola]

Being a girl has no influence on how good Kendo-ka you are (or you can become) I got beaten by many girls ( like Catherine :-)) I know what I am talking about :-)

[don_lubo]

I will not discuss this any longer with a guy who is calling "kick ass" the vitory in shiai and who can make a conclusion about my kendo from what i'm writing in this forum.

[LNGUYEN]

Just a question guys, girls; if a guy and a girl with average physical comparing for guys and for girls, equal intelligent, start to learn Kendo, who do you think progress faster?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Muschio, while it's true that the ratio of men to women in most clubs is a little daunting, women can and do play very strong kendo. We have some very good women kendoka here in Canada, if you look for posts here by Ms. Kendo she's one of them. Several of our national team members (including Ms. Kendo's big sis) have placed in the best 4 in men's divisions in competitions in Seattle and Vancouver, against some of the best people you'll find outside of Japan. So just practice hard, and maybe someday you can be that good.

By all accounts your instructor is a certified jerk. You're in a very tough situation there, and I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do.

[nodachi]

I would think that they will progress the same, as long as both put in the same practice at home and energy into their practice.

Of course, some people have natural gifts at different things. Whichever has a natural gift for kendo would naturally progress faster. But if all things are the same, I vote they progress the same.

[Catherine]

Muschio,

I have just realised that you are located in Mexico.

You have some very good women kendoka in Mexico. I met Loila Herrara de Chavez at the summer camp in Kitamoto, Japan about 3 years ago. Her kendo was very nice and she was very determined!

In our dojo we thought quite a bit about how to support the women members. We have a women's kendo lunch every couple of months. At that lunch all of the women get together and talk kendo. It is intended to be a place where women can ask kendo questions, swap books etc without being worried that someone might think they are stupid for not already knowing the answers.

We all really enjoy the lunches. We also decided that we would have a special motto for the women in the club.

We also have an Australia-wide women's training once a year. We found that the best encouragement for women to continue playing kendo is for them to meet other women playing kendo and to train together.

Maybe you would be able to organise one of those weekends in your country. We have been able to organise the weekends quite cheaply - with homestay accommodation etc.

If you could do that, I think that it would help get the women in your dojo some support for their training.

Regards,

Catherine

[Chopstix]

Muschio,

I have just realised that you are located in Mexico.

You have some very good women kendoka in Mexico. I met Loila Herrara de Chavez at the summer camp in Kitamoto, Japan about 3 years ago. Her kendo was very nice and she was very determined!

In our dojo we thought quite a bit about how to support the women members. We have a women's kendo lunch every couple of months. At that lunch all of the women get together and talk kendo. It is intended to be a place where women can ask kendo questions, swap books etc without being worried that someone might think they are stupid for not already knowing the answers.

We all really enjoy the lunches. We also decided that we would have a special motto for the women in the club.

We also have an Australia-wide women's training once a year. We found that the best encouragement for women to continue playing kendo is for them to meet other women playing kendo and to train together.

Maybe you would be able to organise one of those weekends in your country. We have been able to organise the weekends quite cheaply - with homestay accommodation etc.

If you could do that, I think that it would help get the women in your dojo some support for their training.

Regards,

Catherine
Folks - in case you don't already know, Catherine is my sempai at the Sydney Kendo Club, and is one of the highest-ranked female kendoka in Australia as far as I know. My point is, she has tons of kendo experience which makes her post particularly meaningful, especially from a female kendoka's perspective.

Catherine: How about a sempai(s)-and-beginners gathering? I've got tons of kendo questions :D

[Yowai]

Gender is irrelevant in Kendo? In that case, let's pitch the women's national team against the men's national team in any country. The audience might snicker and chuckle for the first one or two rounds, but will become solemn after realizing the tragedy.

Let's try another non-contact sport. Soccer. Most of the males are skinny; the females should have a shot. ...Oh the tragedy!

Tennis. Why not?
...I can't watch.

[Kirin]

Gender is irrelevant in Kendo? In that case, let's pitch the women's national team against the men's national team in any country. The audience might snicker and chuckle for the first one or two rounds, but will become solemn after realizing the tragedy.

Let's try another non-contact sport. Soccer. Most of the males are skinny; the females should have a shot. ...Oh the tragedy!

Tennis. Why not?
...I can't watch.

Yowai "Mr Super Troll",

Kendo is not just winning match.
What about kendo kata? or reiho? Most of the females have very good forms ...well in fact better than males in many cases.

From experience looking after beginners, men has tendency to rely on their strength, where female and youth can copy the movement.
So men have more rigidy awkward form.

Overall at any level of kendo, ladies have more proper forms and footworks than most of guys.

[KhawMengLee]

I will not discuss this any longer with a guy who is calling "kick ass" the vitory in shiai and who can make a conclusion about my kendo from what i'm writing in this forum.

erm...MooCow is a certified demon...so he pretty much does "kick arse". Try asking the Korean dude he nearly threw out of shiai jo in WKC.

Kendo tho' is about what you are. You can adapt your kendo to your abilities. Big ppl can use their size but at the same time smaller builds can aim for speed. It would be rediculous to try and fight a bull on its level...look at the Corgi...it looks like a useless dog but the damn buggers move welsh cattle by nipping away at their heels and not by trying to head butt the bigger beasts.

True that in most cases the female frame is less muscular that the male but kendo is not only about strenght...if that was the case a 8dan sensei would get annihalated by most younger guys...

[Shazzanzzz]

Yowai "Mr Super Troll",

Kendo is not just winning match.
What about kendo kata? or reiho? Most of the females have very good forms ...well in fact better than males in many cases.

From experience looking after beginners, men has tendency to rely on their strength, where female and youth can copy the movement.
So men have more rigidy awkward form.

Overall at any level of kendo, ladies have more proper forms and footworks than most of guys.

Can't agree with more.

[Yowai]

Feminist bullshit.

Overall at any level of kendo, ladies have more proper forms and footworks than most of guys.

Since the top females aren't competitive against the top males, you must imply that shiai requires little to none of "forms and footworks."
Oh OK; I stand corrected. Enjoy your katas and samurai mimickings.

[Kendo ISB]

Put it simply. as my Kendo teacher says it. "Once your in armor, it doesn't matter if your male or female. It depends on the strength of your mind and heart."

[mingshi]

...are we back to the days of wearing corsets, tying feet and shaving eyebrows?

Tell you one thing: It may feel superior for some to be able to physically smack the opposite sex. But not many male/female like this feeling.

Of course that depends on the definition of "superior".

YMMY :rolleyes:

[Tato]

...are we back to the days of wearing corsets, ...

Corsets? that's not that bad, sometimes finding a corset is pretty nice, err... ;)

Seriously, the arguments on this thread are too much similar to a previous one started by Don_lubo himself.

And again, thanks to heaven, girls can practice kendo, and in many cases better and with more dedication than guys.

And from the physicaly point of view, the difference between man and woman are only apparent in the top level, in the average fitness level that most of us, mortals, display, you may have difficulties to see the difference.

Rei

[Yowai]

Great. Here comes a flood of hypersensitivity: a by-product feminism and dainty eunuchs.

I never said women should not play Kendo.
I said that the premise, that women are generally better than men at playing Kendo, is bullshit.

[aikanaro]

From the comments about your sensei, it seems he's a moron. There aren't many women in kendo compared to the number of men, but there is no particular reason to say that they are less able in any way. Maybe, at the beginning there's a little more need of strengthening the arms (not always the case), but proper training should take care of that, as kendo is more based on skill rather than brute strength. You just ignore this attitude, train and enforce your argument with some well-placed men on men's mens :)

On the other hand, I'm also located in Mexico. I wouldn't like anyone to think this attitude is the common rule at mexican dojos, the general attitude is to welcome anybody who has the willingness and discipline to do kendo, regardless of sex.

[Caleb]

I only have one female kendoka in my dojo. Shes very fast and very accurate. Her footwork is beutiful. I mean, you can barely, if at all see her head move when she comes in. And then its to late and she just smacks you in the men. Shes very good. Shes my age, and started 2 years before me, but she holds her own even against our top people.

[Yowai]

You meant her foot was beautiful, right?

[ALI G]

You meant her foot was beautiful, right?

Noz......Her footz up yer azz iz beautifulz.....

[Andoru]

This topic is so troll-friendly.

[Eldritch Knight]

Great. Here comes a flood of hypersensitivity: a by-product feminism and dainty eunuchs.

I never said women should not play Kendo.
I said that the premise, that women are generally better than men at playing Kendo, is bullshit.

The premise is not that either are better, but that both are equal. Gender is irrelevant when talking about kendo. You can't equate strength or size into the formula for figuring out who's a better kenshi. Amongst my senpai, I have an extremely slender female senpai and an extremely huge male one, and they're both equal (both in rank and in skill).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Gender is irrelevant when talking about kendo.
That's going a mite far. For the sports side of things, women have a physiological disadvantage versus men, just like they do in any other sport. For kendo it's a lot more even-up than it would be in weightlifting but it's still there. Women have had success competing against men, but if you look at the general case men have the advantage. Note that I'm talking about competition here, not general kendo ability which is a different thing. But despite Yowai's usual lack of tact, I'll agree - stack the men's team against the women's in any given country in a competitive situation and I don't think the outcome is in doubt.

Women are also generally not as aggressive as men, and in kendo this has the effect of reducing the number of participants. Those that stay and like it are aggressive and mentally tough like any good kendoka.

I find where women excel versus men is in learning kendo - they tend to listen well, accept criticism and do not let their own egos or half-baked ideas get in the way of what they are being taught.

[Catherine]

I think that the idea that the men's team in any country would beat the women's team is going a bit off topic.

However, I will bite (a bit) on it. One thing that hasn't been really considered or acknowledged in relation to the mens vs women's team idea, is that women's kendo is at a different stage of development to men's kendo in most countries (apart from the obvious like Japan and Korea and some others).

Also women at a higher level often may drop out or take a break from kendo when they have children.

It is interesting that when the women's team was made into a 5 member team, rather than a 3 member team at the world's in 2000, a number of countries that previously fielded a women's team - could not do so.

It seems from reading this thread that in most countries there are a few women who do very well in the national championships. The issue is that there are often not enough women at this level to make up a 5 women team of a quality that could soundly thrash the men's team.

So really I think that the issue of whether the men's team could beat the women's team is not really that relevant to who plays better kendo.

Catherine

[Neil Gendzwill]

One thing that hasn't been really considered or acknowledged in relation to the mens vs women's team idea, is that women's kendo is at a different stage of development to men's kendo in most countries (apart from the obvious like Japan and Korea and some others).

True. I'd even say that was the case in Japan where I speculate that women's kendo isn't taken as seriously as the men's at say, the University level. Maybe if Colin is listening in he can confirm that. But it's only in the last couple of worlds that we've even had a women's division, so that shows you about where the IKF is on the matter. Another problem is that kendo isn't attractive to all that many women, so the pool of potential athletes is reduced compared to the men. And the men's pool of talent is pretty thin outside of Japan or Korea to start with - if you've only got 1000 people in a country playing kendo, odds of finding the next Miyazaki are pretty slim, compared to finding the next Gretzky among the millions of Canadian kids playing hockey.

However, even in well-established sports where lots of women have been playing a long time, men have the edge overall. There's very sound physiological reasons for that, and that is why we have seperate mens and womens divisions in nearly all sports. Kendo is one of the few sports where the gap is narrowed because there are other considerations but in competition speed and strength definitely come to bear. It's fine to be all PC about women being equal in all things but that attitude comes up against some harsh realities when it comes to athletic ability.

Keep in mind that I am arguing here only on the sports side - from a more pure kendo perspective where physical strength and speed is much less important, I don't think men have the same edge.

[Kendo ISB]

Women tend to have alot better basic from Men, this is my own speculation, as men seem to want to tend to jump into armor first thing.

[seraph]

At the beggining I heard that kendo is for either men or women and that stuff, but at my dojo, things doesn't really go that way. My sensei makes girls buy their own bougu for example... and always gives preference on everything to the guys. My sensei doesn't even train women the same way that men, even tough he says the contrary.

Anybody been there?

Never been there but he sounds unworthy of teaching. anyone wanting to learn should get the same treatment. grr on him.- :devious:

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Neil does have a good point (as always), while there are many things about match kendo where size and strength don't matter, there are times when it does [any 5 foot 100 pound people, male or female, care to butt do's with the 6 foot 7, 350 pounder in a dojo affilidated with mine? I'm 6 foot and 200 pounds with good leg power and it's like crashing into a wall for me]

But Catherine's point about different stages of development may be even more relevant, it is my impression that the higher up the kendo ranks you go, the fewer women there are proportionally. Most of the people at those high levels at been training for 10, 20 or more years to get there. Also, I would guess that women 30 years ago would be much less likely to be interested in something that involved hitting each other in the head with a stick than today, I can't imagine my mother or any of my aunts being interested in kendo for example. Does anybody have impressions about the proportion of beginners who are female now vs. say 10 or 20 years ago or the proportion of women who stick with vs. 10 or 20 years ago?

[Shazzanzzz]

Neil does have a good point (as always), while there are many things about match kendo where size and strength don't matter, there are times when it does [any 5 foot 100 pound people, male or female, care to butt do's with the 6 foot 7, 350 pounder in a dojo affilidated with mine? I'm 6 foot and 200 pounds with good leg power and it's like crashing into a wall for me]


well, you don't have to clash do with him... sidestep and hit the humongous do, if you can get around it. :)

size doesn't matter, big people complain about little fast people all the time, too.

[Catherine]

Hi Neil,

I agree about the physiological (sp?) points of difference between men and women.

However, I have seen Japanese women 6 dans take apart Australian male yondans (think tall and Australian looking).

(Mind you, I have also seen Australian male nidans get points on Japanese 7 dans in mock shiai.)

Anyway, I think that it will be interesting to see what happens when women's kendo develops a bit more. I think that we have yet to see exactly what the physiological differences will mean in kendo.

I agree that women's kendo is only recently being taken more seriously, even in Japan. Mind you, I also think that worldwide there is more interest in women's kendo than there is in say, women's golf. (Maybe that says something about the people who train in kendo).

I think as women's kendo gets stronger, there is more and more interest in it.

There was a study done in Japan - I forget where it was published - which looked at and compared the number of women and men at each kendo grade from 1 dan up in a particular Japanese prefecture.

The study showed a significant fall in kendoka overall at about 4 dan level and a significant drop in women at about the same level. 4 dan is about the time that Japanese women would get married etc and I wondered if leaving kendo to take up home duties and also possibly continuing work had anything to do with that drop.

If anyone has a copy of it, I would be keen to see it again. It was really interesting.

Regards,

Catherine

[Yowai]

Your posts are full of feminist wishful illogical speculations. It's sickening to read your posts seriously.

However, I will bite (a bit) on it. One thing that hasn't been really considered or acknowledged in relation to the mens vs women's team idea, is that women's kendo is at a different stage of development to men's kendo in most countries (apart from the obvious like Japan and Korea and some others).
What is a "different stage of development?"
A women with 15 years of training is on equal grounds to a man was 15 years of training.

Also women at a higher level often may drop out or take a break from kendo when they have children.
Boo hoo. Let's impose a handicap on the males.

It seems from reading this thread that in most countries there are a few women who do very well in the national championships. The issue is that there are often not enough women at this level to make up a 5 women team of a quality that could soundly thrash the men's team.
You assumed your argument was true (that the women's team can thrash the men's team), then moved the focus to a reasoning that is completely irrelevant to the argument (5vs3 women's team). Nice one.

So really I think that the issue of whether the men's team could beat the women's team is not really that relevant to who plays better kendo.
What the hell? The issue is DIRECTLY relevant to who plays better Kendo; you dimwit.

Anyway, I think that it will be interesting to see what happens when women's kendo develops a bit more. I think that we have yet to see exactly what the physiological differences will mean in kendo.
No we won't. The concept of women's Kendo "developing" does not exist; therefore your entire speculation is moot.

The study showed a significant fall in kendoka overall at about 4 dan level and a significant drop in women at about the same level. 4 dan is about the time that Japanese women would get married etc and I wondered if leaving kendo to take up home duties and also possibly continuing work had anything to do with that drop.
I am glad you filled your posts with "I think" and "I wonder" because if you didn't, I would think you are stupid. Have you ever thought of considering the direct cause (women's kendo is inferior) for the given effect (less women above 4th dan) instead of considering some illogical and unlikely excuse?

You must be a Creationist. "The Grand Canyon was sculpted in a few days by a flash flood!"

[Catherine]

Wow Yowai, something in my comments must have really have peaked your interest to have you respond in the way you did, rather than thinking about the points I was raising.

A personal attack on me at the end of your post as well. Good one.

Catherine

[Chopstix]

Catherine: Yowai is a forum troll. That's what he does - don't take it personally.


It's sickening to read your posts seriously.
You read people's post seriously?

[neo_dragon_kai]

haha, stupid people's comments are always funny to read.
filled with macho-ism and feminism and PC and anti-PC. lmao, it is just
too funny to read.

ok let's see...

first, yowai, r u simply trying to be extremely anti-political correct? cuz that's the first impression i get from you. i actually agree with some (not all) of your tactless words. women's national team will most likely lose to men's national team. the physiological difference will indeed show at the top level. but really, dude, do you have to be a jackass about this? (or as it seems to the word on this forum, a troll)

to the PC and extreme feminist on this forum, well, i'm sorry the reality is the way it is. women in sports r looked upon lightly compare to men, but come on, kendo is probably the best sport for women out there, i can't think of a single sport that even compare to the equality level in kendo. i really dont think yowai is trying to insult anyone, i think he is just naturally tactless.

anyways, my 50 cents:

it actually make me all warm and fuzzy inside to think about kendo's equality.
for most of us, race and sex simply vanishes the moment you r in keiko or shiai, the person is ur opponent, someone to be respected as another human being. i think it really reflects the true spirit of martial art. and as someone said before, it really does say a lot about people that do kendo.

in a way kendo is quiet different from most martial art. you mostly dont get assholes in kendo. it is a martial art (or sport if you will) that in essense very humble. we are taught to be humble and we are influenced by our sensai and sempai to be humble. to do kendo for me is to become a better self. yes it definitely feels good to wack people and get life's frustration out but in essense, those who truly practice kendo is not just learning how to swing a piece of bamboo, but learning the discipline and the spirit.

back on topic, kendo is really the best sport for women. i truly do not believe strength and speed = kendo. it is really a game of spirit and mind. more and more i am realizing how much a slight movement can mean. especially since i began to experiement with jodan, the spiritual requirement seems much more clear to me. (which i completely lack *blush*)

kendo is a sport of the mind, how good you r depends really on ur talent and determination, physical strength and speed comes with it. an undetermined person WILL NOT acquire the speed and strength no matter the gender.

also, as a last point, come on guys, as guys, wouldn't you want more hot chicks practicing kendo? i sure the heck do!

[tweetyness]

:) Wow, you guys can sure get worked up about this. Kinda funny to see the arguments because I doubt either side will convince the other to agree, unless they are agreeing to drop the point.

I would like to think that women can do as well in kendo as men, but I do not know enough to claim that. Perhaps men are better, or women, but I don't find it terribly important. That's all.:cool:

[K@eRu]

girl vs. guy
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Tachibana/4286/kendo005.jpg
girl vs. girl
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Tachibana/4286/kendo002.jpg
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Tachibana/4286/kendo004.jpg

"kenjutsu training" in kusazoshi, picture books with narrative and dialogue published in the Edo era (1603~1868)
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Tachibana/4286/kusazoshi10.htm
http://www.geocities.co.jp/HeartLand-Tachibana/4286/index.html

[mingshi]

According to Yowai, all Gaijin cannot do better kendo than Japanese and Korean, because all 5-men team at the WKC lost against the Japanese and Korean. Besides, Bulgaria doesn't have a right to do better kendo, because they didn't fill a team for the WKC.

Simply because, "A Bulgarian with 15 years of training is on equal grounds to a Japanese with 15 years of training." --disregrading factors of age, training level, sensei, etc. etc.

[Musha]

Nice pictures K@eRu,

I have some of those types of E-hon on my mantelpiece by 'Utagawa Toyokuni'. Remember they are stories so can not be taken too seriously if you don't know what they are about. Seems strange how there are a lot of 'Warui yoke'.. Inoue says it is new to point the tip of the Shinai down to block a cut...

[Raziel]

After reading all of the posts on this thread I am plesently supprised and yet horribally disgusted. The former because of everyone standing up for the girls. Yea you! But the latter because of all the people who are actually complaining about women in Kendo. I mean seriously people, I've never met such hateful criticism. I am 19, overweight, slow as hell and I just started Kendo. But when I joined I got nothing but positive support from everybody. People always telling me that it didn't matter about all of that because that isn't what Kendo is about. But here we are actually arguing about a pointless subject, nearly completly off the topic. We were not here to get into a debate about guys vs. girls in Kendo, we were here to help Muschio with the problem at her dojo. To which I say Muschio keep up the training but don't just sit back and take your teacher's bullshit. Try and bring up the problem with him, you never know what kind of result you will get. He might not even realize he is treating you different. But about the armour thing I can't really say anything because earlier someone said something about men's and women's armours being different so that just might be the case why he won't loan you a set. But you'll never know until you try. Good luck and have fun

[Musha]

On to the topic, strangely I think Yowai it talking sense :D. When I went to Japan one of the things I knoticed was how difference concerning women
people think in the UK and Japan. There were much more women working in Japan doing jobs like car work or things people usually think men would do. Also more women on Motorcycles. My mother is probably one of the few people in my hole city that owns one.

In kendo there were also a lot of girls doing Kendo and other sports happening at the same sports centre. Almost all girls doing Kyuudou and allot doing Karate. Actually there seems to be more things women can do in Japan than men, Sado, Ikebana, Koto. My host mother received her high grade Koto rank when I was there and she was Married with Children.

I think because peoples families do not understand that much about Kendo in the UK, girls are not as eager as boys to join which is bad. Maybe some people think if they have a chance to see kendo and how rough it looks people could think it was like Tai-boxing or other more physical sports. Some people even try to encourage this with Samurai references, and it could be one of the down points of English Kendo.

Reading a book about a 70 or so year old women teaching Naginata in Chiba and going to Japan. I don't think people usually quit Kendo to do other things in Japan. There was a women I spoke a little to that must have been at a high DAN level. Maybe 4th so I know people don't always just quit...

[Yowai]

According to Yowai, all Gaijin cannot do better kendo than Japanese and Korean, because all 5-men team at the WKC lost against the Japanese and Korean.

Let me correct your failed attempt to grasp logic: gaijins aren't doing better kendo than the Japanese, because the gaijins didn't win at the WKC.

"Cannot" implies gaijins will never overtake the Japanese in Kendo, which is completely untrue.

[Hai_hai]

Let me correct your failed attempt to grasp logic: gaijins aren't doing better kendo than the Japanese, because the gaijins didn't win at the WKC.

"Cannot" implies gaijins will never overtake the Japanese in Kendo, which is completely untrue.

Let me correct your failed attempt to grasp reality: gaijins will never overtake the Japanese in kendo.

[Yowai]

Why not? Although the Japanese are intellectually superior, they have a physical disadvantage.

[LNGUYEN]

Hey Yowai, what do you mean by Japanese are intellectually superior? Does it mean they are more intelligent than the rest of us?

[Raziel]

Now you guys are arguing completely off the topic this wasn't even about the Japanese or the rest of the world being better the argument was sex based not race. Come on people.

[Hai_hai]

Why not? Although the Japanese are intellectually superior, they have a physical disadvantage.

Let me rephrase, not gaijin but non-Japanese team kendoka will never win in the World Championships.
Winning in kendo, for the most part, is about who shows better form, speed, spirit, etc. However, when it comes to the World Championships, winning in kendo is about Japanese national pride. Get it? They are discriminating against non-Japanese team players. There are plenty of Japanese people who make it on foreign teams because they were born and have citizenship in another country. They aren't really gaijin but they are not going to win because they represent another country.

[muschio]

From the comments about your sensei, it seems he's a moron. There aren't many women in kendo compared to the number of men, but there is no particular reason to say that they are less able in any way. Maybe, at the beginning there's a little more need of strengthening the arms (not always the case), but proper training should take care of that, as kendo is more based on skill rather than brute strength. You just ignore this attitude, train and enforce your argument with some well-placed men on men's mens :)

On the other hand, I'm also located in Mexico. I wouldn't like anyone to think this attitude is the common rule at mexican dojos, the general attitude is to welcome anybody who has the willingness and discipline to do kendo, regardless of sex.
I'm glad that you saw my thread back there and now I know who can have a little more perspective around here... It's also very motivating for me to know, that perhaps I am not one in a million, but one in a hundread women with troubles like this on this place (meaning Mx).

Thanks for your support and I hope to hear from you more ophen. By the way, I found really important in your reply that you actually explained this thing about attitudes and mexican dojos.

[muschio]

My bows to you Catherine. Here is when I find that being a girl and a women, ain't the same.

Really, you are an inspiration to many of us.

Thanks for being. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

However, I have seen Japanese women 6 dans take apart Australian male yondans (think tall and Australian looking).
You can't really argue from specific cases like that. Some women can beat some men at every sport, we're talking the general case here. FWIW there's a couple of Canadian godan women that would probably make mincemeat of Australian yondan men, but that's neither here nor there.

(Mind you, I have also seen Australian male nidans get points on Japanese 7 dans in mock shiai.)
Yeah, well it's a little different when the flags are out for real. The top team guys here all have a few gears the rest of us schmucks don't get to see in friendly practice.


I agree that women's kendo is only recently being taken more seriously, even in Japan. Mind you, I also think that worldwide there is more interest in women's kendo than there is in say, women's golf. (Maybe that says something about the people who train in kendo).
Eh? There's huge interest in women's golf these days, what with Michell Wie and others taking on the men.


The study showed a significant fall in kendoka overall at about 4 dan level and a significant drop in women at about the same level. 4 dan is about the time that Japanese women would get married etc and I wondered if leaving kendo to take up home duties and also possibly continuing work had anything to do with that drop.

Maybe, but yondan is about the level people finish college at and enter the real world, after which they either don't have time for kendo, or are burned out on it, or both.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

well, you don't have to clash do with him... sidestep and hit the humongous do, if you can get around it. :)

size doesn't matter, big people complain about little fast people all the time, too.
The point is, that the guy I was talking about, with his superior size and strength, has options I don't, the example I gave before was that he can taiatari me and put me off my balance while I can't do the same thing to him. He can also do others things to me which I can't do in return, like fling my arms out of the way from tsubazaria (probably spelled wrong) He however, CAN do everything I can do, think big people can't be quick? Turn on the TV during an NBA or NFL game sometime. So even if I don't crash into him, I am at a disadvantage just by the fact that he has more options.

[Old Warrior]

The most dangerous weapon is the human mind. If some wants to use size and strength to win, there are obvious counters. The one thing I have found that separates most men from women is the ability to commit everything and the willingness to be nasty and combatative. Having said that, I can tell you that I know a woman epee fencer, who is 100lbs lighter than me and who I have never beaten and could never beat. She is the most fearless person I haver met. Now, is she the exception. But to have fenced with her was always a privilege and all my size and 15 years of 2X's a week lessons never did me one bit of good. She was just better and always will be!

[Karaken]

The point is, that the guy I was talking about, with his superior size and strength, has options I don't, the example I gave before was that he can taiatari me and put me off my balance while I can't do the same thing to him. He can also do others things to me which I can't do in return, like fling my arms out of the way from tsubazaria (probably spelled wrong) He however, CAN do everything I can do, think big people can't be quick? Turn on the TV during an NBA or NFL game sometime. So even if I don't crash into him, I am at a disadvantage just by the fact that he has more options.

Big man pushing you hard gives you a perfect chance for Hiki-Kote.. Bigger the better target..( Should I say taller the better )

Center..

[samurai999]

I hate going up against girls. If you lose, the male contingent makes fun of you. If you win, everybody thinks you're a bully.

My 0.02$ (US)
Tim

[Stimpson J. Cat]

The most dangerous weapon is the human mind

I absolutely agree, like I have heard marines say, "My rifle and my pistol are only tools, I am the weapon." But you are talking about mental strength, while I was talking about physical strength. My original assertion on this, (which was not the main point of my first post, that seems to have been largely forgotten) was that there are times when being bigger and stronger is an advantage. Whether the competitiors are both male, both female, or one of each, most of the time one of them is going be bigger and/or stronger than the other. On average men are bigger and stronger than women, so the majority of the time the physical advantage will favor the man when a man and woman compete.

Can superior skill and mental strength overcome physical advantage? Of course, take a look at a 70 year old sensei striking a fast high school kid at will, take a look at the woman six inches shorter than me and half my weight who easily defeated me in the last tournament I attended. I had a physical advantage, I'll arm-wrestle her for money any day, but her skill and mental strength were a bigger advantage than my physical strength and size.

After this post I will give up on this subject, because apparently I am not explaining myself well, or people don't want to hear what I am saying.

[mystic_kendoka]

i think its the latter, you have made your self very clear, and i couldnt agree more...

[Old Warrior]

My comment was simply intended to point out that size and strength are but one component in the arsenal of skills it takes to be good at Kendo. One needs to know how to properly exploit the advantages God has given you. If you can do this, you can maximize your ability. The fact that an opponent is bigger or faster is not the end of the story.

[Karaken]

Can superior skill and mental strength overcome physical advantage? Of course, take a look at a 70 year old sensei striking a fast high school kid at will, take a look at the woman six inches shorter than me and half my weight who easily defeated me in the last tournament I attended. I had a physical advantage, I'll arm-wrestle her for money any day, but her skill and mental strength were a bigger advantage than my physical strength and size.

After this post I will give up on this subject, because apparently I am not explaining myself well, or people don't want to hear what I am saying.

I'll give you wrestling, boxing maybe even Judo. However, I don't think Kendo is one of the sports where physical strength or size has advantage. If male has advantage over female maybe it's because there are more male kendoka therefore statistically more talented ones belong to male population. I can see agility, better reaction time, endurance playing a big factor as well as mental strength and discipline. Being able to maintain calm under stress would be a big one. None of the factors I mentioned above exclusively belong to male gender however..

Center..

[Wout]

actually, I feel that discussions about women or men are better in this or that sport is always akinda forced dicussion.
Everyone looks at the top players and sees well well men are better than women, or the other way around doesn't really matter really.

And in kendo it doesn't really matter either wether you are a girl or a boy. I only do kendo for about 8 months and this is what I see:
- I am a man and there are women who are better than me like there are men who are better than me in kendo, difference in the end = 0, can't win from the first as as I can't win from the latter. In general someone who is better in kendo than you is better in kendo, period.


- Even if men where better at kendo like they are at sprinting, if a woman is better than you she is better than you in kendo. In the same way you will lose to Marion Jones in sprinting (unless you are a very good sprinter yourself) your 'manship' won't save you there . Sure some men are faster then Jones but an athlete does only care if he himself is faster than her , the fact that Green is faster doesn't interest him one bit. (using sprint metafor cuz in sprint it is clear who is best).

- and about progress, who is faster, for men it is easier to build up muscle. and that's all.

learning something takes effort, time, sweat and a lot of patience, regardless of what it is.

[BakaDeshi]

In the beginning,we're all beginners,gender doesn't change that.No one person is born to be good at Kendo,yet they have the potential to learn.Even in the times of Feudal Japan,it wasn't uncommon to see a woman pick up a sword,nor was it looked down upon.True it may be that a man's body can become strong at a quicker rate than that of a woman's,Kendo isn't only about physical strength,and to say that it is is foolish.Kendo relies also on balance and agility,as well as brains.You need to be able to strategize (sp?) and make quick desisions.Also take into account that in battle,an opponent is an opponent,and thus should be treated equally,despite gender,age,and physical ability.