How does kendo make you a better person?

[Fudo-Shin]

What's your philosophy?

And is that why you study/practise kendo?

Or do you perhaps disagree that kendo does improve you as a person?

[Gideon]

There's nothing inherent about kendo that magically makes you a better person. It's just a tool that can be used in your own efforts.

[Wookiesmurf]

I'm not about to make sweeping statements of a universal nature, but I definitely think martial arts training (kendo included) has helped me become a better person. Benefits I can think of off the top of my head:

It has served to
Raise my confidence, allowing me to live a fuller life.
Reduce my stress levels, making me nicer to the people around me.
Show me the joys of actually using my body, making me stronger and healthier.
Inspire me to take up other forms of strength and conditioning training, see above.
Help make me aware of what learning strategies work for me, allowing me to apply them in other domains, see below.
Help uncover my love for teaching, which I'm on my way to making a career out of; handing in my Master's thesis in May.
Make me able to whack almost anyone over the head with implement of my choice.


Superior human being, I tell ya!:smiley:

[hl1978]

It doesn't. I've seen enough "sensei behaving badly" over the years in various arts to seriously question that.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/21224-How-has-Kendo-helped-you-develop-your-charactor?p=388642&viewfull=1#post388642

The above thread, and not just my post might give you some ideas.


Budo is like a religion: the practitioner takes some mental construct, a set of principles, and keeps those in mind as an ideal, and then goes through stylized moves that allow him or her to feel as though they are putting those ideals into physical motion and instilling discipline in themselves (budo is intended for social benefit). With that there is some exercise for the body. However, no great development of the body ever happens, nor detailed understanding of it; ergo, the understanding people find from doing budo is really not very deep at all. This is Shin(mind) gi (technique) tai (body) in the order expressed in the phrase.

Someone could take on kendo as a form of gyo, or asthetic exercise, but I haven't seen much explicit instruction of that nature in any dojo I have trained.

On the other hand, studying kendo along the lines of bujutsu follows tai(body) gi (technique) shin(mind), exactly the opposite: the practitioner forces his or her body to undergo specific exercises that change the body and give him or her some deep understanding of the body, to great detail. This leads to an understanding of the principles. As that understanding develops, the body can be used to perform so-called techniques (which are not really special movements, but only the body in motion according with the understanding given the practitioner), and finally, when the practitioner is really powerful, he or she may decide to no hurt or harm an opponent and use the training as a kind of ascetic exercise.

[D'Artagnan]

For me it is quite simple, Kendo is helping me learn how to try my best.

Whether that ends up with me being judged as a 'good person', I don't know (or really care), but it benefits my life and strengthens my character.

[b8amack]

Marketing gimmick.

I play tennis. There's etiquette involved (rei), and over here, that's even literally accurate, since we bow to start a match. Calling your own lines teaches you honesty. Playing 5 sets, and the nature of the game itself (the only sport I can think of where there are no ties, and you have to take the very last point to win, although maybe badminton is the same) teaches you perseverance in the face of discouragement. And so on, yadda yadda.

Anything you love and work to improve at probably improves you as a person. I don't care whether it's hobby modelling, knitting, or turning cannons on a lathe in your basement. We choose to hit each other with sticks in smelly armour. It may give us a distinctive aura, but it doesn't qualify us for sainthood.

Didn't Alex write an article on this recently? The arrogance of kendo?

[MikeW]

I think kendo can help make someone better as a person, but it doesn't always. Depends on the person and circumstance. As others have already alluded many other activities, if applied properly with the right mindset and determination, will also do the same thing (and not just martial arts).

[Neil Gendzwill]

the only sport I can think of where there are no ties, and you have to take the very last point to win, although maybe badminton is the samevolleyball, racquetball, squash, golf, playoff versions of any team sport....

To the original poster: I don't think there's anything in kendo that's inherently going to make you a better person. However the intellectual and physical rigour of the activity, combined with the culture and etiquette of it, make it an excellent tool for self-improvement if that is your aim for it. If you want to treat it as sports and just see how many tournaments you can win, or if you use your progress as one big ego-massage, then all that stuff can get lost.

[Missingno.]

volleyball, racquetball, squash, golf, playoff versions of any team sport....

What about kendo?

[Neil Gendzwill]

What about kendo?Yup........

[Fudo-Shin]

Ok, good. So we all agree that practising kendo itself will not necessarily make you a "better person", it is the individual that uses kendo as one of many available tools for self cultivation and ultimately up to the individual as to how they use that tool amd how they understand it, which will vary between individuals. I'm glad to see that there is a general agreement there.

So, how do you think this applies to the concept of kendo?

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
This will make one be able:
To love his/her country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

Arguably, there are examples of kodansha out there who despite holding a high grade do not follow the above mandate.

Onto what I'm actually getting at with this thread, do you think when the ZNKR formed, they drew up the "Concept of Kendo" purely for reasons of transmitting the psyche of bushido under the radar of GHQ? Was it all just a clever trojan horse?

[MikeW]

Just like striving for the perfect men uchi, I think the ZNKR Concept of Kendo is an ideal to be strived for. No one is perfect but it sets a goal for people that are serious about not only kendo and budo but serious about achieving personal growth.

[b8amack]

volleyball, racquetball, squash, golf, playoff versions of any team sport....



You can't tie in golf? Beyond that, net sports... And pool.


What about kendo?


Yup........

You can't tie in kendo? News to me.

[hl1978]

Ok, good. So we all agree that practising kendo itself will not necessarily make you a "better person", it is the individual that uses kendo as one of many available tools for self cultivation and ultimately up to the individual as to how they use that tool amd how they understand it, which will vary between individuals. I'm glad to see that there is a general agreement there.

So, how do you think this applies to the concept of kendo?

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
This will make one be able:
To love his/her country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

Arguably, there are examples of kodansha out there who despite holding a high grade do not follow the above mandate.

Onto what I'm actually getting at with this thread, do you think when the ZNKR formed, they drew up the "Concept of Kendo" purely for reasons of transmitting the psyche of bushido under the radar of GHQ? Was it all just a clever trojan horse?

I'm not trying to troll here and undoubtably someone will come up with quotes from the 1600's to counter what I'm about to say.

To cover their asses so that the occupation forces would view gendai budo as not being overtly miltaristic and instead as a form of cultural practice.

There is a large incrongruity in that in order to be successful in kendo, you need to be able to control, dominate, and manipulate your opponent so that you may enforce your will on them. Contrast this with the above message of peace and prosperity in terms of what one would have to cultivate in order to be a "strong" kendoka. Making your opponent succumb to the "4 sicknesses" hardly seems like something that a better person would be doing to their fellow man.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can't tie in golf? Not for 1st place in tournaments - it goes to playoff rounds if they are tied after the regulation 4 games or whatever.

You can't tie in kendo? News to me.Nope. Somebody has to win and advance. Do you actually play kendo?

[b8amack]

Nope. Do you actually play kendo?

Yes. I've even played team events. Where you see tied matches. But maybe you don't.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yes. I've even played team events. Where you see tied matches. But maybe you don't.The individual matches tie but there must always be a team winner. We don't keep score for the individuals in that event, it's a team score.

[b8amack]

The individual matches tie but there must always be a team winner. We don't keep score for the individuals in that event, it's a team score.

Yes. But you said you can't tie in kendo. And that's a lie, Neil. Now man up and admit it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Yes. But you said you can't tie in kendo. And that's a lie, Neil. Now man up and admit it.I wouldn't call it a lie so much as a difference in opinion on what is a tie. There are situations where in individual matches there can be a tie. We do that for round-robin type entry into the main draw for example, and as you point out the individual matches in team. Of course there are "ties" for any position in a tournament below 1st. But there is always one tournament winner, individual or team.

[dillon]

Talking cross purposes? Neil said play-offs have no ties. But there are ties in non-play off team situations so you're both right but miscommunicating perhaps.

[Neil Gendzwill]

"Butting heads" is more the normal mode of operation between b8amack and I. The point I was trying to make is that there are lots of sports where there are no ties, and in playoff/tournament situations there are no ties in most sports that keep score. Tennis is not a unique and special flower in that regard.

[UnimportantHero]

I agree with several people here who say that most sports (and even many hobbies) can make someone a better person. But I think that those activities need to click for a person. Wushu did not make a better person and Aikido did not make me a better person. I was still a computer addict and shut-in for a very long time, a total slacker to the first degree. EMS volunteering excepted. Kendo really clicked for me though and now the internet largely seems boring to me, spending hours (hours!) at a time just staring at a computer screen and expecting it to something different now feels really pointless, and I get outside at least a couple hours each day to do something I never would have done before: exercise. I am more outgoing, etc etc etc. I even wound up developing the confidence to go out and get a damn job, rather than moping with imaginary fantasies about a difficult (local) job market in which finding employment was impossible. Heck...! Even participating here on the KW forums is slowly (maybe too slowly, sorry guys, working on it!) teaching me to ease way back on the internet "Brainy Smurf" thing I usually have going on, not to mention Bitchy Smurf at times. (Ha! Smurf jokes...) But that is really because we share Kendo and I feel driven to work toward earning the respect of the Kendoka with whom I interact.

So no. I do not think that anyone who picks up Kendo will become a better person. Otherwise no one would quit and the world would be a brilliant shining place where our collective goodness is only ever punctuated with the sound of bamboo slamming against futon. But when it clicks for a person in the right way, and that person possesses a desire to improve themselves, then I think Kendo can make someone into a better person. It is not some magic quality that it possesses. It is just - for some people - the right piece to fill the right gap at the right time in their personal puzzle.

[D'Artagnan]

Ok, good. So we all agree that practising kendo itself will not necessarily make you a "better person", it is the individual that uses kendo as one of many available tools for self cultivation and ultimately up to the individual as to how they use that tool amd how they understand it, which will vary between individuals. I'm glad to see that there is a general agreement there.

So, how do you think this applies to the concept of kendo?

The purpose of practicing Kendo is:
To mold the mind and body,
To cultivate a vigorous spirit,
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo,
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor,
To associate with others with sincerity,
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself.
This will make one be able:
To love his/her country and society,
To contribute to the development of culture
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples.

Arguably, there are examples of kodansha out there who despite holding a high grade do not follow the above mandate.

Onto what I'm actually getting at with this thread, do you think when the ZNKR formed, they drew up the "Concept of Kendo" purely for reasons of transmitting the psyche of bushido under the radar of GHQ? Was it all just a clever trojan horse?

I may be a bit naive on this, but I actually think that both the Concept of Kendo and the Purpose of Practising Kendo are pretty spot-on... Most (if not all) the Hachidan I have met adhere to these principles, and most of the 7dan I have met do too.

The interesting thing is that, although it is implied, the ZNKR does not actually say that 'Kendo makes you a better person', rather it says that concept of the art is to discipline the character.

Don't get me wrong I have met many high graded (7dan plus) Kendoka who's opinions or methods I didn't agree with, and some who I simply didn't like, but I would say that they are still generally following the concept and purpose...

Having said that there are a few lines in there which are hard to interpret, but in general I think of it like this -

To mold the mind and body - this refers to the physical/mental aspects of actually practising.
To cultivate a vigorous spirit - see above
And through correct and rigid training,
To strive for improvement in the art of Kendo - naturally we practice to get better right?
To hold in esteem human courtesy and honor - to me I guess this is partly to do with reiho and how it should be correctly upheld, and also the mutual respect we (should) acquire for striving for a common goal. This could be respecting our seniors/elders, acknowledging defeat or not overly-celebrating victory.
To associate with others with sincerity - you can't really practice Kendo on your own, so unless you do this (even a bit) you can't practice at all.
And to forever pursue the cultivation of oneself -through doing all this stuff.
This will make one be able:
To love his/her country and society - this is somewhat more relevant in Japan, where a sense of national pride is probably more common than in some other parts of the world, however, I don't think it should be ignored completely, but that is a whole different thread...
To contribute to the development of culture - I think the physical act of practicing Kendo is a contribution to the development of culture, in a multitude of ways.
And to promote peace and prosperity among all peoples - OK this one is a little but cheesy, but I don't think it means we should all go and join an anti-war campaign. Rather, I guess it refers to Kendo being a multinational activity, that can be practised by anyone, of any race, age or gender, and allows us to make friends all over the world. (This forum is a great example actually).


Just my thoughts anyway...

[D'Artagnan]

Sorry for the double post,

Just wanted to add -

I don't think the benefits of practising Kendo are exclusive to Kendo, and could certainly be achieved through other activities I am sure. My parents are keen golfers and have been for many years, I believe many of these points apply to them too.

And also, the ZNKR purpose of practising and in the concept of Kendo cannot 'automatically' be followed through simply turning up and 'practising' Kendo, just like doing that won't 'automatically' get you through your Dan gradings, or help you win tournaments...

[pgsmith]

There is a large incrongruity in that in order to be successful in kendo, you need to be able to control, dominate, and manipulate your opponent so that you may enforce your will on them. Contrast this with the above message of peace and prosperity in terms of what one would have to cultivate in order to be a "strong" kendoka. Making your opponent succumb to the "4 sicknesses" hardly seems like something that a better person would be doing to their fellow man.
I think you are making a mistake in your interpretation of the purpose of kendo. The first part of it seems to me to be an admonishment to learn how to control, dominate, and manipulate your opponent. The second part seems to me to be saying that if you develop this proper spirit, you'll have the tools necessary to be able to love your country, contribute to the development of your culture, and promote peace and prosperity. To say that a "better person" would never need to exert their will over others is naive.

[JByrd]

I agree that kendo is a tool for improving oneself, but it won't happen automatically. You have to apply the principles correctly to get that improvement.

Kendo has character development as a stated goal. To me, that means that if you're not using it for that purpose, you're missing the point. It isn't optional.

[EndureForte]

Kendo = Hard.
Life = Hard.

Doing one thing that is hard should help you with the other thing that is occasionally a screaming-drunken-motherless-bitch of an experience (that is also hard). That's my $.02 anyhoo.

[turboyoshi]

Kendo has character development as a stated goal. To me, that means that if you're not using it for that purpose, you're missing the point. It isn't optional.

I'm not sure i can explain this properly but this is how I see things.
I think that most people tend to automatically assume character development equates to being a "good" person. A person can improve their character but still not engage in altruism. They could still be mentally strong, have a hard work ethic, be aware of their own weaknesses and make efforts to correct them and still be diametrically opposed to me, philosophical and morally. I don't think kendo, or any other endeavor, can change a person's basic personality. It can make them a better person, but we may not like the way they apply that personal improvement. We should be careful about assuming others share our own ideals.

[MartialArtsGirl]

Wow this thread is still going!

I think that kendo would be having more of an effect on my character and personality if I were going more often. I need to go more than 2x a week I think because even before when I was going 2x a week, in truth I felt like it could have been doing more as far as charactor development. I was still lazy for one. I know that karate did WONDERS as far as character development for me...changed me from lazy, unmotivated and a probably depressed kid to a hard working, responsible, conscientious, disciplined teenager that excelled in school.

One of the reasons I havent been able to do much kendo was my job and college: my classes were always at night. Then my first job out of grad school, my working hours were always at night. Now, my current job, I always have to bring work home at night. Believe me I am sick of this!

The other reason is that I have had a lot of problems with my heel. There were times I could have gone more often but didnt because it would always hurt a lot during practice and then the morning after. (On a side note: Actually I *may* have FINALLY figured out the reason, and once I pull myself away from work I am going to go more often and see if my guess is true. It makes me feel like an idiot though but it may have had nothing at all to do with kendo- kendo might have just been exacerbating the problem. Basically: Don't wear shoes even a half a size too small! My foot was starting to hurt in multiple OTHER places after wearing bad shoes (and it was starting to visibly damage my feet..bunions, for one...and hurting in weird places. I wasn't going to kendo much because of work then too), and now that I changed my shoes to the right size, everything is better and the swelling (on the BACK of my heel not the underside) has healed dramatically faster...10x faster than before. Maybe kendo just made the problem show up sooner than it would have otherwise. I am keeping my fingers crossed that when I start going more regularly to kendo again, it won't hurt anymore.

My job has also been killing me and whenever I go to kendo, I always feel better. I love kendo even when its hard and despite the fact that its been a b$tch to my achilles heel.

So anyway I know I derailed a little (or a lot!) I hope that when I am able to go 4x a week kendo will also help me develop my character more.

Oh yeah one other thing... I haven't been posting as much on KW either. That has more to do with my sempai making me feel like an idiot for posting so much and so many off the wall things then anything else though. :\ That and I'm normally just way too busy.

[b8amack]

I wouldn't call it a lie so much as a difference in opinion on what is a tie. There are situations where in individual matches there can be a tie. We do that for round-robin type entry into the main draw for example, and as you point out the individual matches in team. Of course there are "ties" for any position in a tournament below 1st. But there is always one tournament winner, individual or team.

That's the tournament forcing the rule changes, though, not the rules of shiai themselves. Same with all the playoff events you listed. Football allows ties, as does hockey, and so on. So does kendo. You can have a friendly shiai-geiko, and it can end in a tie. It's the nature of the tournament that forces a winner. And even the way you win, sure, in encho, someone gets that last ippon. But what about hantei decisions? No one really hits that final point. Apparently you can win by lot as well in the rules (never seen that myself, but it's in the rules I have). It'd be pretty hard to call that the same thing. And in either of the latter cases the moment of ending is determined by time, not one individual's effort.

In any case, the wording I used was "the only sport I can think of". Which was true when I typed it. I did add pool, later. There are undoubtedly many sports which have similar rules. I just don't know them.

[JByrd]

I'm not sure i can explain this properly but this is how I see things.
I think that most people tend to automatically assume character development equates to being a "good" person. A person can improve their character but still not engage in altruism. They could still be mentally strong, have a hard work ethic, be aware of their own weaknesses and make efforts to correct them and still be diametrically opposed to me, philosophical and morally. I don't think kendo, or any other endeavor, can change a person's basic personality. It can make them a better person, but we may not like the way they apply that personal improvement. We should be careful about assuming others share our own ideals.

Maybe I'm not getting what you are saying there, but I do not think that character development could easily be interpreted as 'becoming a more capable asshole.' Reading the concept and purpose of practicing kendo, I can't see how that could possibly be twisted around in such a way that one could be seen as fulfilling that ideal, while still being a jerk.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's the tournament forcing the rule changes, though, not the rules of shiai themselves. Same with all the playoff events you listed. Football allows ties, as does hockey, and so on. So does kendo. You can have a friendly shiai-geiko, and it can end in a tie. It's the nature of the tournament that forces a winner. And even the way you win, sure, in encho, someone gets that last ippon. But what about hantei decisions? No one really hits that final point. Apparently you can win by lot as well in the rules (never seen that myself, but it's in the rules I have). It'd be pretty hard to call that the same thing. And in either of the latter cases the moment of ending is determined by time, not one individual's effort.

In any case, the wording I used was "the only sport I can think of". Which was true when I typed it. I did add pool, later. There are undoubtedly many sports which have similar rules. I just don't know them.Fair enough.

[DCPan]

While I agree that pursuing any subject in earnest could be a vehicle for self-improvement, there are a couple of things in kendo that I feel has personally helped me in understanding how I deal with certain things.

You can really take dojo life as a microcosm.

In the dojo, you will see people started practicing later than you that getting a higher grade before you.
In life, you will see people who enter the company later than you that gets promoted before you.
How do you deal with it?

In the dojo, you will see some sensei doing things that you don’t agree with.
At work, you will see some managers that do things that you don’t agree with.
How do you deal with it?


In the dojo, you will sometimes run into people of higher rank that you feel you can easily beat.
At work, you will sometimes run into people senior to you whom you feel you are more capable then.
How do you deal with it?

How you deal with those dojomates and guests will probably tell you something about how you’re handling it in real life. How you learn to deal with it in the dojo can also carry it back to real life.

I find the lesson particularly poignant since keiko and shiai provides quite a yardstick, compared to other arts where the reality check maybe less obvious….

Just saying….

[DCPan]

Kendo has character development as a stated goal. To me, that means that if you're not using it for that purpose, you're missing the point. It isn't optional.

Kendo will tell you something that you didn't know about yourself whether you like it or not, it's whether or not you've done something about what it told you that makes the difference.

Personally, I feel like as long as people are sticking it out, they are not missing the point. I certainly don't have character development as a stated goal for myself in terms of kendo.

For me, I do find that I have to be honest with myself and accept where I am in my development if I want to go further in kendo; but for me, character development is at best a by-product of my desire to improve at kendo, not the goal.

YMMV.

[enkorat]

Okay, gonna break my longstanding nonhabit of not posting again (twice in one day! \o/ )

The one thing I'd like to add to this conversation is two things. In addition to what everything else people have already said (I like Andy's thoughts in particular), I think a large proportion of "character development & Kendo" is predicated on the attitudes of your closest sensei. One of my senseis who had a strong influence on my instruction and my friends considers this aspect the primary reason for doing kendo. Thus I've seen many of my close friends from this dojo after many years develop a fairly deep philosophical perspective on their kendo. Other senseis do not, and I've noticed that their attitudes are either slightly different or in some cases completely different.

The other thing that I've noticed is this. I think there is a relatively small window in ones life to convince people of the validity of the "kendo mindset". So the people who join later in life, who already have a strong developed sense of identity and outlook tend to either find a sensei and a dojo with a compatible philosophy, or leave. I think this accounts in part for the attrition rate seen at least in adults, independent of the physical challenge of kendo.

[Fudo-Shin]

Nice discussion and some interesting points being made.

Ok, so what I am fishing at with this thread is:

Do you think there is a disparity in how we interptret the concept of kendo today and what the ZNKR meant at the time of writing it?

Again, what I'm fishing at (and perhaps just playing devil's advocate) is did the ZNKR cleverly word it in such a way that GHQ would lift the ban on gendai budo and was it almost a subtle way to continue the imperialist mind-set in a subliminal kind of way?

[pgsmith]

No, not necessarily a way to continue "the imperialist mindset", just a way to be allowed to practice kendo again.
Nothing is black or white, and nothing has a single reason for being.

[AndreiB]

There's a fantastic episode of the Australian comedy/documentary series 'John Safran Vs God' where John signs himself up for a good fortnight up in a remote Japanese Shinto temple to train to be come a monk, meditate on koan, and help with upkeep the temple. Being the masochistic, eternal victim that he is though, most of the episode he screws up and is punished by the monks by being whipped with bamboo to remove his 'ego'. It doesn't sound funny, but it is. I think a lot of kendo's 'moulding of character' (this is the key phrase for me) stems from friends and team-mates getting bits of wood and beating the ego out of you, if you haven't sweat it all out yourself.

Let's face it, it's much harder to be a self-pitying nong when you're accustomed to goals of self-improvement, discipline and complete acceptance of dojo values.
Ego is what makes us lounge around in a self-important haze deciding that everything we do is unique, wonderful and cannot be improved. It's what makes us decide that hard work is below us or if certain people are unworthy of our time. I'm sure that there's a fair few extremely self-important sensei who've grown their ego back after too many years of not having to 'keep it real.' I'm sure they lost their ego at one point - unfortunately it might have come back with a vengeance.

So, I think kendo's character moulding doesn't actually MOULD character - it simply provides an excellent vehicle to be able to shed negative personality traits.
Moulding our character after we've beaten the bullshit out of our heads - that's up to us outside of the dojo.

[Fudo-Shin]

No, not necessarily a way to continue "the imperialist mindset", just a way to be allowed to practice kendo again.So are you saying there is no remnants of the pre-war Japanese ideology in present day kendo?

And as far as I know, kendo is a different animal now than it was before the war.

[D'Artagnan]

So are you saying there is no remnants of the pre-war Japanese ideology in present day kendo?


I don't think there are... though I am not really sure what is considered to be 'pre-war Japanese ideology'. Though I find the idea quite interesting, would you mind expand on it?

[Josh Reyer]

Again, what I'm fishing at (and perhaps just playing devil's advocate) is did the ZNKR cleverly word it in such a way that GHQ would lift the ban on gendai budo and was it almost a subtle way to continue the imperialist mind-set in a subliminal kind of way?
To be clear, GHQ never banned budo. They dissolved the Butokukai, seeing it as an organization supporting right-wing nationalism, and they took kendo, judo, and naginata out of the schools, interpreting their presence as militaristic training. Private, non-government supported dojo were free to continue as they always did. Further, the Zen-Nihon Shinai Kyougi Renmei was formed to bring kendo back into schools, with a determinedly non-militaristic flavor, but the ZNKR wasn't formed until October 1952, after the occupation had ended. The ZNKR and the ZNSKR merged in 1954, two years after the occupation ended. It would be strange if these organizations were worried about making kendo palatable to GHQ, two years after GHQ disbanded.

Here's (http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1202.htm) an interesting article, and based on it, it would seem that indeed kendo's pre-war emphasis on character building was seen as impractical and useless by the militaristic factions.


I'm not trying to troll here and undoubtably someone will come up with quotes from the 1600's to counter what I'm about to say.

To cover their asses so that the occupation forces would view gendai budo as not being overtly miltaristic and instead as a form of cultural practice.
1600s, 1700s, 1800s, even the 1930s. But it's easiest just to go to the 1580s and Yagyu Sekishusai: 他流に勝つべくあらず、昨日の我に今日は勝つべし。Taryuu ni katsu beku arazu, kinou no ware ni kyou wa katsu beshi. "You should not defeat other ryu, you should defeat today who you were yesterday."


There is a large incrongruity in that in order to be successful in kendo, you need to be able to control, dominate, and manipulate your opponent so that you may enforce your will on them. Contrast this with the above message of peace and prosperity in terms of what one would have to cultivate in order to be a "strong" kendoka. Making your opponent succumb to the "4 sicknesses" hardly seems like something that a better person would be doing to their fellow man.
Well, IMO you're describing a transitional stage in kendo's paradigm of development, and one that has a pedagogical purpose.

[Fudo-Shin]

To be clear, GHQ never banned budo. They dissolved the Butokukai, seeing it as an organization supporting right-wing nationalism, and they took kendo, judo, and naginata out of the schools, interpreting their presence as militaristic training. Private, non-government supported dojo were free to continue as they always did. Further, the Zen-Nihon Shinai Kyougi Renmei was formed to bring kendo back into schools, with a determinedly non-militaristic flavor, but the ZNKR wasn't formed until October 1952, after the occupation had ended. The ZNKR and the ZNSKR merged in 1954, two years after the occupation ended. It would be strange if these organizations were worried about making kendo palatable to GHQ, two years after GHQ disbanded.Fascinating link, there is some good reading there for me to tuck into when I have the time - many thanks for the link and your well-founded post.

I'm confused though, if GHQ disbanded the butokukai and took budo out of all school and college curriculum, wouldn't that be considered very close to a general ban on budo as they were also "purging" any ultra-nationalists at the same time? I have read of some hanshi only being able to take up their studies again some time after the war on more than one occasion. Was this a general mis-interpretation of the GHQ directives by the Japanese at the time which still carries over to today?



I don't think there are... though I am not really sure what is considered to be 'pre-war Japanese ideology'. Though I find the idea quite interesting, would you mind expand on it?
I guess what I mean by that is the nationalistic psyche that I imagine would have been much stronger pre-war than it is today. But I'm not even going to try to articulate that as I am far from qualified and I think it could easily be mis-interpreted over the net.


Regarding kendo, it's this thought pattern which confuses me especially when I read the line "To love one's country and society" when it was then and still is now (to a point) considered to be very much a Japanese pursuit by the Japanese. Why would they put that line in and how should we understand that today as opposed to the time it was written?

This is all just informal research/chit-chat for me and I am interested to hear opinions along the way, it's certainly hard for me to articulate what I'm actually getting at but it has turned out some good food for thought so far. I have been listening to my partner's and many others opinions from the Japanese perspective for the last 7+ years and it is interesting to hear from the Western perspective also.

Depending on what happens in this thread from now, I might ask Neil or someone to change the title to reflect the content.

[D'Artagnan]

I guess what I mean by that is the nationalistic psyche that I imagine would have been much stronger pre-war than it is today. But I'm not even going to try to articulate that as I am far from qualified and I think it could easily be mis-interpreted over the net.

Regarding kendo, it's this thought pattern which confuses me especially when I read the line "To love one's country and society" when it was then and still is now (to a point) considered to be very much a Japanese pursuit by the Japanese. Why would they put that line in and how should we understand that today as opposed to the time it was written?

Ah Ok,

Personally, I don't think that any 'nationalism' that is encountered in Kendo is any stronger or more evident than it is in other aspects of Japanese society. In Japan (I believe) it is *generally* considered to be a good thing to 'love your country' and as 80-90% of the Kendoka in the world are Japanese, it doesn't surprise me that this is written into the purpose. In my opinion, although Kendo is practiced all over the World, Kendo is a Japanese activity, and is most effectively practiced in the Japanese way. This is something I am struggling with myself, and my wife frequently 'shoots me down' so to speak when I ask her thoughts on Keiko, and explains that I need to *think* more Japanese! :confused2

[rfoxmich]

Self development parts of kendo are like the rest of it... you get out what you put in. Sorry there's no magic. I would have used it by now if there was.

[ben]

I'm of a similar mind to DCPan. What I find valuable about kendo is the direct feedback you get. That and the fact that, unlike an awful lot of sports and Martial Arts (save for the soft ones), you can pursue it into old age. The use of the voice and breathing in kendo, combined with dynamic bursts of exertion, really does seem to have life-extending properties.

I also agree with whoever said above that kendo never promised to make you a better person. To paraphrase the Kendo no Rinen in slightly more colloquial English than we're used to: In studying kendo ones uses the Sword to pursue a path of personal development. b

[Fudo-Shin]

This is something I am struggling with myself, and my wife frequently 'shoots me down' so to speak when I ask her thoughts on Keiko, and explains that I need to *think* more Japanese! :confused2Ha ha, I think I understand what you mean... for a society that is so "wabisabi" from the outside, it is far from it when it comes to inner workings etc. Which is what always keeps me interested...

[pgsmith]

In studying kendo ones uses the Sword to pursue a path of personal development.
While that's certainly true, it doesn't mean that you'll be forced down a path to personal development. The opportunity and ability is there, but improvement of self comes from the inside, not the outside.

[sirius1906]

kendo and iai is my therapy.

[JByrd]

You know, I have never met a single kendoist who has told me they are perfectly happy with their current skill level. The fact that pretty much everybody wants to get better tells me that the concept of continual improvement is part and parcel of kendo. Who wants to be a crappy beginner, who always gets hit and can't hit anybody, for ever?

But you have to ask yourself what the goal of improvement is. Is it really so we can say, "I can hit people with a bamboo stick and they can't hit me back"? That, in itself, is a practically useless accomplishment. Perhaps one might also add in the pleasure and satisfaction obtained from the side effects of establishing better control over one's mind and body, and a keener ability to discern reality from confusion. Of course those side effects are quite useful in everyday life.

When the side effect of something I do is really useful, and the primary effect is fairly useless, I would reconsider which is which. :-)

[enkorat]

My own personal view is that the language in the statement of purpose of kendo is purposely vague enough to allow for a lot of different perspectives. In some ways I also feel that it was written that way to prevent the statement of purpose of kendo from becoming a dogmatic, ideological, and rote answer that provided a single, clear answer so that in the end it stifled the act of self-examination and reflection.

[Neil Gendzwill]

But you have to ask yourself what the goal of improvement is.Well one commonality I've found among kendo people is that they are mostly people who understand the concept of never being done something, who in fact appreciate a task for which there is no finish. It's one of the big attractions of kendo in that you can keep improving for as long as you play. I think almost anything is boring if there's no progress.

[DCPan]

The fact that pretty much everybody wants to get better tells me that the concept of continual improvement is part and parcel of kendo. But you have to ask yourself what the goal of improvement is.

Is it really so we can say, "I can hit people with a bamboo stick and they can't hit me back"? :-)

No, it is so I know I can get even better at hitting people with a bamboo stick and look even cooler while doing it and I really am not being sarcastic.

Call me shallow, but I started kendo because I think it looks cool. I've obviously found better reason to stick with it since, but I love saying I started because Conan the Barbarian everytime people say people come after a movie don't stick around....

Please understand that I am not trying to be contrary. I'm simply pointing out, like Enkorat says, one kind of rice can feed many kind of people...why limit what or who kendo is for?


When the side effect of something I do is really useful, and the primary effect is fairly useless, I would reconsider which is which. :-)

Not really, I do it precisely because it 'seems' useless on paper. Kendo is something I do totally for me, and I feel no need to justify why I'm do it.

[DCPan]

If I am forced to give a single clear answer about kendo, I would only say it is about 'Showing Up'. Both Neil Gendzwill sensei and Marsten sensei have been saying that for years, but it took me a while to understand what they are saying because I'm slow.

[enkorat]

I think if you search the archives, this was my very first (or second) question I ever asked on this forum.

I assumed (wrongly) that everyone on here was doing kendo for the same reason as I was, and I made some very blanket statements that fairly quickly got picked apart.

I think now my view is a little more simple. There is no one answer to this question, and there is no "right" answer. But by asking this question, if its a question you're interested in, you begin to shape how you perceive your kendo "journey", both by your instruction, the kinds of experiences you have in kendo, and the ideas of the people with whom you train. And you arrive at an answer for that particular moment. But as that moment moves on, the answer changes.

Its not the best answer I can give, but it is how I feel about this now.

Cheers!

[Santiman]

The true beauty of martial arts dwells not only in the physical aspects but more in the mental and spiritual accomplishments you achieve when developing discipline and sense of righteousness. Mules can kick and Kangaroos and bears are said can punch; if it would be that easy then we know where the masters are.
Those who do not delve into developing discipline and sense of righteousness will probably miss the best part of it.

[Josh Reyer]

I'm confused though, if GHQ disbanded the butokukai and took budo out of all school and college curriculum, wouldn't that be considered very close to a general ban on budo as they were also "purging" any ultra-nationalists at the same time? I have read of some hanshi only being able to take up their studies again some time after the war on more than one occasion. Was this a general mis-interpretation of the GHQ directives by the Japanese at the time which still carries over to today?
I would say yes and no. If you were in a high school or university, then in a very real and tangible way, budo was banned, even if one could still get practice at a private dojo. For some, school may have been their only real opportunity for solid practice, and the ban in schools effectively sidelined them. And no doubt some people misinterpreted the dissolving of the Butokukai and the ban in schools as being a general ban, and so kept their head down to avoid possible attention. But if you read the above link, you'll see that budo was openly demonstrated, and GHQ officials invited to see these embu. Sumo tournaments continued throughout the occupation.



Regarding kendo, it's this thought pattern which confuses me especially when I read the line "To love one's country and society" when it was then and still is now (to a point) considered to be very much a Japanese pursuit by the Japanese. Why would they put that line in and how should we understand that today as opposed to the time it was written? Looking for the Japanese original of the concept of kendo, I found that it was written in 1975! I think we can safely rule out it being made palatable to GHQ.

In fact, the part you mention here, probably wouldn't have even been included during the occupation. The Japanese is 国家社会を愛して, which is something of a loaded term. 国家, kokka is not just "country", but rather "nation". "Kokka-shugi" is "nationalism". And when paired with "shakai", society, it becomes "national socialism" - the Nazis! Let it not at all be said that the concept of kendo should be interpreted as saying "love national socialism"! Merely that these words represent certain conservative buzzwords. I think that just about anyone with experience in the budo world in Japan will tell you it skews a bit to the right of center. And not without reason; the right wing has long been a supporter of traditional martial arts. I think what you see there is that slight conservative bent reflected in that section of the concept of kendo -- that part of being a valuable and contributing member of society is to love one's country. In this case, for the primary audience, that being Japan. Of course, when translated for an international kendo-practicing audience, it can't very well be translated as "love Japan and society", and so it becomes the slightly incongruous "love one's country and society".

If I can indulge in some cultural anthropological speculation, patriotism has long been a devalued virtue among the youth of Japan, particularly among the baby boom generation and Japan's version of Generation X. (Personally, I think it's on the upswing these days.) In 1975, when the concept of kendo was written, the people who wrote it were the generation that lived through, fought, and/or came of age in the time of nationalism and war.　The late 60s and early 70s were no less turbulent times in Japan than in America, and I wonder if perhaps the powers that were in kendo at that time didn't feel that there was a lack of patriotism and national pride in Japan at the time.

[johnjonathanseo]

it makes you a better person, who can beat the crap out of people with a stick(properly).

[CauseImSmaller]

My reason for practicing Kendo is simple. Who doesn't like the idea of hitting each other on the heads with bamboo sticks while screaming "MEN"?

Haha, but on serious note, I took it mainly because I was heavily influenced by Japanese media (anime, samurai movies, etc.). I was always a martial art enthusiast when I was growing up due to exposure to Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and the such. After high school wrestling, I knew that I wasn't going to be able to compete at the University level so I decided to join a new martial art. Kendo was the cheapest (that's a lie) and it was offered at my university. I signed up and that was that, been practicing since last September even though most of my friends think it is dumb as they train mostly MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc. that is more UFC style with no philosophy at all. (What I'd call "mainstream" martial arts, I guess) but Kendo is something I'm rather passionate about.

Not sure if this applies to anyone else but I find that it helps me sort out some things in my life. In school life, I've been pretty much slacking off and getting mediocre marks (not in probation but not good either), not studying despite the fact that I always say I'm going to study for the next midterm ahead of time and end up cramming the day of. In Kendo, I always have to improve something. My kiai is not loud enough, more kiai. My big motion cuts are not big enough, gotta reach more. I suck at tying himo and folding hakama, gotta practice more. By taking Kendo, I guess I've begun to develop a work ethic which I've never had.

[tagonagy]

I've wondered whether martial artists are disciplined because the the martial art, of if they practice the martial art because they are disciplined? It's probably a mix of the two, but in my case I think It's the latter rather than the former. This may sound arrogant, but I think I was already disciplined when I started Kendo. The spiritual benefits are nice and all, but I don't practice kendo to achieve enlightenment. I do kendo because it's fun to hit people with a stick.

[DCPan]

I find it interesting that people "assume" you get more personal development just because they have that as an explicit goal.

I would almost suggest that some of the benefits happen when you don't consciously shoot for it. IMHO, some things happen easier with an empty cup. Moreover, something don't happen when you WANT it.

Also, I am truly mystified as to what you would do differently, if you have "personal development" as an explicit goal. Would someone explain how and what you would do differently AT PRACTICE when you come for the supposed personal development?

[MartialArtsGirl]

I've wondered whether martial artists are disciplined because the the martial art, of if they practice the martial art because they are disciplined? It's probably a mix of the two, but in my case I think It's the latter rather than the former. This may sound arrogant, but I think I was already disciplined when I started Kendo. The spiritual benefits are nice and all, but I don't practice kendo to achieve enlightenment. I do kendo because it's fun to hit people with a stick.

I can definitely say that for me, it was/is the former. Maybe not as much with kendo right now, but when I was younger when I did kempo karate the former was 150% true. Before doing kempo karate I was so $@!% lazy. Incredibly lazy- the laziest I ever was in my life. Then I did karate and I became the most disciplined that I ever was in my life. So the former, for me. The one month that I was able to go to kendo 4x a week, it was the same thing. I could feel myself being more disciplined.

[ben]

I find it interesting that people "assume" you get more personal development just because they have that as an explicit goal.

I would almost suggest that some of the benefits happen when you don't consciously shoot for it. IMHO, some things happen easier with an empty cup. Moreover, something don't happen when you WANT it.

Also, I am truly mystified as to what you would do differently, if you have "personal development" as an explicit goal. Would someone explain how and what you would do differently AT PRACTICE when you come for the supposed personal development?

My understanding of the reasoning behind the Concept of Kendo is that it was to valorise the (unending) pursuit of self-perfection over the pursuit of either a) technical or competitive dominance over others, b) ego-gratification. By having these ideas reinforced from day one, the mindset of new kendoka is conditioned to think of kendo in this way. They are more likely when at training to think of training itself as being the goal, similar to how Yoga or Tai Chi practitioners think of their arts, rather than training as a path to improved results at competition. What they practice is no likely to be different, but perhaps the motivation behind practice will be different.

b

[hl1978]

My understanding of the reasoning behind the Concept of Kendo is that it was to valorise the (unending) pursuit of self-perfection over the pursuit of either a) technical or competitive dominance over others, b) ego-gratification. By having these ideas reinforced from day one, the mindset of new kendoka is conditioned to think of kendo in this way. They are more likely when at training to think of training itself as being the goal, similar to how Yoga or Tai Chi practitioners think of their arts, rather than training as a path to improved results at competition. What they practice is no likely to be different, but perhaps the motivation behind practice will be different.

b

Depends on the tai chi. You have hippie tai chi, then you have my quote below.

[hl1978]

I've wondered whether martial artists are disciplined because the the martial art, of if they practice the martial art because they are disciplined? It's probably a mix of the two, but in my case I think It's the latter rather than the former. This may sound arrogant, but I think I was already disciplined when I started Kendo. The spiritual benefits are nice and all, but I don't practice kendo to achieve enlightenment. I do kendo because it's fun to hit people with a stick.

Looking at how many people drop out of kendo and other martial arts, I tend to say the latter.

[ben]

Depends on the tai chi. You have hippie tai chi, then you have my quote below.

You could just as well say that to "crash through their centre and kill them" is also the main aim of kendo. b

[DCPan]

They are more likely when at training to think of training itself as being the goal, similar to how Yoga or Tai Chi practitioners think of their arts, rather than training as a path to improved results at competition. What they practice is no likely to be different, but perhaps the motivation behind practice will be different.

I see what you're saying. At the same time, I really wonder which one gives you a more honest feedback, training for the sake of training, or training for the sake of improved results?

More than a couple of kendo books out there have mentioned mindset and how there are players who are awesome on the keiko floor, but simply can't deliver when push comes to shove.

While I personally don't compete a whole lot, I do think shiai is about as honest a feedback as you're going to get.

Exhibit A: practcing at your own dojo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLZ0jH2NoRE&feature=related

Exhibit B: honest feedback
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQeUkUO5ZPo&feature=autoplay&list=PL29CBDBD09A566219&index=35&playnext=2

Striving to be a better kenshi than you were yesterday is certainly a very admirable goal, but at the end of the day, 3 judges are going to be less biased than one....

I do find it ironic that I'm posting this since honestly, I'm more in the training for the sake of training camp....

[ben]

I agree that I rarely perform as well as when I am pushed from without. That can be competition, grading, or even just having to demonstrate in front of my students. I even think, in an expanded sense, that being unable to train due to circumstance is itself a form of training.

There are a couple of really interesting lines in the Eiga doco "A Single Blow". The central tenet is that he has to train hard to be able to win, yet in order to produce a waza that elevates his kendo above his opponent, he has to transcend the desire to win. This is an interesting paradox and dates back to numerous writings from Sengoku Era onwards where bushi were encouraged not to cling to life. It was considered axiomatic that if your aim was to survive a battle you would be more likely to die (Japanese version of Murphy's Law?). Another observation is made later that this kind of thinking (not making victory paramount) would carry a lot less weight if Japan was not also the best in the world in kendo competition.

I know there are holes in the idea of the Concept of Kendo, but the reality of training for victory in competition is harsh. To be an elite athlete means putting the rest of your life on hold. Indeed everyday life goes by in a blur as you're either training or recovering from training. There is no 道, no journey, just a series of goals separated by time spent thinking about the next goal. Many just don't make the grade after years of sacrifice. Even those that do find themselves at retirement age in their 30s (or earlier) with few skills outside their chosen sport and fewer qualifications than their school friends who didn't pursue elite sport. If they didn't choose a lucrative sport then they'll probably be starting from scratch. Depending on their sport they might even have developed some chronic condition as a result (e.g. asthma, knee problems, spinal problems, reduced aerobic capacity/cardiac weakness, in the case of American footballers certain impact-induced neurological conditions, etc, etc).

This doesn't even take into account the fact that the parents of such an athlete will have made massive sacrifices, not just in time and money, but also in time spent with their other, non-competitive offspring. This is the real cost I think. What if you are the younger sibling of such an athlete and your life is spent catering to their needs? That wasn't a decision that you made.

No I reckon the Concept of Kendo is a pretty good attempt to encourage balance in the lives of kendoka. b

[ben]

Sorry about the double post, a few more related thoughts.

The other thing the Concept of Kendo tries to instill is a realisation that this is your journey, not anyone else's. Therefore you should judge your progress against yourself, not against the progress or achievements of others (kind of interesting coming from a culture than focuses on the importance of the group over the importance of the individual...).

This took me a LONG time to get. I spent many years being jealous of the achievements/skills/progress/opportunities of others. One of the great things about getting older is some of that innate competitiveness just drops away. My kendo has been a lot lighter and more enjoyable (and more effective and resilient too I think) as a result. I'm not the best and I'm not the worst. Some things I can do well, other things take more effort. My body has certain limitations that I need to work with. Knowing all this makes my kendo better and is a result of some kind of personal growth. Whether that growth was caused by kendo or simply enabled by kendo is really a moot point. Kendo has given me a framework with which I can measure growth.

b

[Fudo-Shin]

Looking for the Japanese original of the concept of kendo, I found that it was written in 1975! I think we can safely rule out it being made palatable to GHQ.Josh, thank you for clearing that up. I was under the wrong impression and it most definately is proof that the ZNKR did not do anything to "dress up" kendo to GHQ or the West at large around those early times, furthermore they didn't need to as it is now apparent that kendo by & large was not even considered a threat. I can't rep you enough!

[DCPan]

Sorry about the double post, a few more related thoughts.

The other thing the Concept of Kendo tries to instill is a realisation that this is your journey, not anyone else's. Therefore you should judge your progress against yourself, not against the progress or achievements of others (kind of interesting coming from a culture than focuses on the importance of the group over the importance of the individual...).


Hi Ben,

I appreciate the thoughtful response.

Here’s the angle that I’m coming from.

You can’t really do kendo by yourself. Therefore, by definition, even when you are judging your progress against yourself, it still involves some kind of interaction with your aite, no? So, how can you ever TRULY get feedback about kendo without involving someone else?

So, here’s the thing. In keiko, when you are successful in the delivery of your technique, do you really know whether you are successful because of something you did, or whether it is because that person was working on something else? It maybe that the technique was successful because you are too used to practicing with your dojomate.

So, in keiko, there’s plenty of things and reason you can attribute your success and failure to. It is almost too easy to assign a false reason when you don’t feel up to owning up to what really isn’t working.

But with shiai, you can’t kid yourself with “Oh that’s just a lucky shot, I was holding back” or “I was trying out a new technique”, etc,etc...you either brought it or you didn’t.

So no, I don’t think just because you train for result that you’re necessarily comparing your progress against other people.

It isn’t about who you beat in the tournament today or whatever. It’s more like, are you stuck never getting out of round 1? Can you consistently get in top 4, top 8, etc?

I do agree that it is about motivation though. Winning, at least to me, is hollow. It is how the exchange went that’s interesting. That said, who doesn’t want to have as many exchanges as possible, if one showed up anyway? :P

YMMV.

[Josh Reyer]

So, where does kata fit into all this? Or perhaps more to the point, where should kata fit into all this?

[Josh Reyer]

Josh, thank you for clearing that up. I was under the wrong impression and it most definately is proof that the ZNKR did not do anything to "dress up" kendo to GHQ or the West at large around those early times, furthermore they didn't need to as it is now apparent that kendo by & large was not even considered a threat. I can't rep you enough!
No problem! Now clear out your Inbox so I can answer your PM. :)

[DCPan]

So, where does kata fit into all this? Or perhaps more to the point, where should kata fit into all this?

Touche, but that would really depend on how you do kata doesn't it?

IMHO, there's clear benchmarks for me to measure progress against myself in prearranged movements, which is different from ji-geiko situation like shinai kendo.

For example, as a shidachi, I always take it as a personal challenge to "pace" the uchidachi. What I mean by that is that I try to do everything at their speed, and that starts at eye contract before rei. I always find it hilarious that people would follow the uchidachi after they take chudan, but totally ignore the uchidachi's pace for kamae otoku/disengage. Isn't that why they demand that you dance with everyone in the class when you take social dance, so you learn to read/follow/lead with as many different folks as you can?

As uchidachi, it gets even more interesting as you have to manage the shidachi.

So, yeah, I don't think judging your progress against yourself in two-person kata is as vague as shinai kendo, since there's more structure.

[JByrd]

No, it is so I know I can get even better at hitting people with a bamboo stick and look even cooler while doing it and I really am not being sarcastic.

Call me shallow, but I started kendo because I think it looks cool. I've obviously found better reason to stick with it since, but I love saying I started because Conan the Barbarian everytime people say people come after a movie don't stick around....

Please understand that I am not trying to be contrary. I'm simply pointing out, like Enkorat says, one kind of rice can feed many kind of people...why limit what or who kendo is for?



Not really, I do it precisely because it 'seems' useless on paper. Kendo is something I do totally for me, and I feel no need to justify why I'm do it.

I hope I didn't rile you, I was kind of playing around with that last post. I think any reason you kendo is great, just because I enjoy keiko with you. Shallow you are surely not. :-)

I am totally on board with the thrill of being able to hit somebody. I also feel that the looking cool part is important because it reflects aesthetic appreciation. Kendo is an art, and art must have some sense of beauty. I could easily sum up my highest ideals in kendo by saying, I hope to use it to make life more beautiful.

I have to admit though, that the fun to work ratio is much higher in kendo than in anything else that I do for the fun of it. I don't think I could sustain the effort if I didn't have the underlying feeling that I have a basic need for it, just like I need to eat my vegetables and get a good night's sleep. Without kendo, or something like it to help build me up, a lazy and undisciplined person such as me would have a much harder struggle in life. Cheers!

[b8amack]

Kendo gets you off the couch.

[sirius1906]

Kendo gets you off the couch.

not if you do iphone kendo. :P

[b8amack]

Well, you have to get up to get your phone.

[Fudo-Shin]

No problem! Now clear out your Inbox so I can answer your PM. :)Cleared, it's all the fanmail I get these days! :-)

[ben]

So, where does kata fit into all this? Or perhaps more to the point, where should kata fit into all this?

The way I see kata fitting with shinai kendo is that kata teaches you to apply perfect form each and every time, without the stress of unpredictability or the difficulty of wearing bogu. People whose kata is solid (i.e. they practice regularly and well) tend to look more imperturbable because their form is less prone to degradation in response to either success or failure feedback. IOW they look good whether they are winning or losing. This has a strong effect on their psyche and the psyche of their opponent. The lesson for life in this is "fake it 'til you make it". No really. Or a more complex explanation is that body posture, ritual and overall goal setting can have a powerful positive influence on mood, resilience and even achievement.

Of course the opposite has to be true, that people bring the intensity of their shiai into their practice of kata. b

[DCPan]

I hope I didn't rile you, I was kind of playing around with that last post. I think any reason you kendo is great, just because I enjoy keiko with you. Shallow you are surely not. :-)

Nah, and I hope I didn't come across as being riled! :D And no, I do not doubt for a moment that you're there for self improvement :D

I actually rather appreciate the opportunity to discuss this as frankly, I never did understand "I come to kendo for personal development" perspective.

Frankly, if I had a class of beginners, I'd be more concerned with those seeking personal development than those who are simply coming because it looked interesting, as in my experience, those come in the door seeking personal development usually either take themselves too seriously or already had an idea of what they want and will either argue with you or leave right away when you did or didn't do something that was within their vision.

But I never really had a chance to discuss the "personal development" part with someone who's really stuck around, that's why I pursued this conversation.

For me, I've always understood it to be that it is through seeking perfection in the art itself that the lesson of self improvement will eventually derive. So, to me, the personal development part is something that is "you understood" and is something that you do not explicitly seek or really talk about except in reflection with others in your immediate circle, as it isn't something that you can truly actively pursue "during" training.

Anyway, I'm beating a dead horse at this point. I hope I will get to keiko with you again soon! Please let me know if you are going to be practicing up here at some point. This is more fun discussed over beer anyway! Cheers!

[enkorat]

Well, I guess I'm one of those who came in looking for "personal development", and barring a 3 year hiatus a year after I started, I've stuck around a bit now. I don't really like talking about my own journey because it feels a bit too ... exhibitionist... and a little prideful, because I have to sort of talk about what I perceive as my flaws in my character and personality. I admit though, I've talked about it on this board before, sometimes extensively when someone has really pushed my buttons or when I thought it might help a wayward beginner.

I do understand DCPan's perspective that it can be worrisome if someone comes in with preconceived notions and looking for a hippie nirvana moment, hoping for some packaged spiritual enlightenment, particularly if they are inflexible. Another worry is either people looking for "therapy", or parents with medicated children in tow expecting a miracle. This frankly intimidates me, as this is a new situation for me.

If it helps, my "idea" of personal development has changed and evolved the longer that I've done kendo and as I've gotten older, so what I was looking for when I started isn't what I'm looking for now. If I were to explain why I feel that kendo for a large part for me is about "personal development" I think I can boil it down to "learning how to deal with winning, and learning how to deal with losing", with more an emphasis on the losing part, and not necessarily about shiai either.

Another way for me to think about it is Kendo, with its challenges is sort of a model for the challenges that happen in "my life in general". Although I don't apply everything in kendo to my broader life, kendo and the dojo is a place where I can test my inner resolve against challenges. And when things go downhill and I fall apart somewhere, the culture of kendo encourages me (forces?) to be brave, meet my challenges head on, not to hide or to hide in self-delusions, and to seek out solutions and fix problems instead of turning inward, giving up, making excuses or complaining.

A few weeks ago I had a particularly poor showing at a tournament, and a good friend looked at me and essentially said, "you sucked". I essentially said, "Yes", and now I'm working on not sucking. There were some intermediary discussions where I was fleshing out the when, where and hows, but if the only personal development I get from kendo is, "this sucked" - "yes"- "fix it" - "ok", I think I'll be okay.

[Neil Gendzwill]

As someone put it so succinctly some time ago, kendo is about sucking a little less each day. Or as my sensei says "Don't give up! This is the kendo spirit."

[nodachi]

Unlike many activities you can continue to do wearing rosey colored contacts on and pretend you are all wonderful without any sort of introspection, Kendo forces you to accept your flaws if you are going to have any hope of improving.

It also forces you into particular roles and responsibilities and makes you do things outside of your comfort zone. How you respond to these situations plays a big role in who you are as a person. This doesn't guarantee that it will make you a good person, but if you hide from these situations all your life there won't be any opportunity for growth.

[JByrd]

Another way for me to think about it is Kendo, with its challenges is sort of a model for the challenges that happen in "my life in general". Although I don't apply everything in kendo to my broader life, kendo and the dojo is a place where I can test my inner resolve against challenges. And when things go downhill and I fall apart somewhere, the culture of kendo encourages me (forces?) to be brave, meet my challenges head on, not to hide or to hide in self-delusions, and to seek out solutions and fix problems instead of turning inward, giving up, making excuses or complaining.



I really like that Enkorat, it's very close to how I think. Seeing personal problems in "kendo terms" gives me a clearer perspective on my own struggles, and what I'm doing to help or hinder my success. It lets me separate the actual problem from my attitude problem. :)
I also dug what Ben said about looking good whether you're losing or winning. The ability to maintain poise and composure and focus no matter what, is a sure sign of a solid person. I know that a lot of my attitude toward kendo has to do with my experiences with the deaths of people close to me, including my grandparents, my father, my brother, and my kendo teacher. We all have a fight in our future that cannot be won. Takeno Sensei showed me that kendo can help me prepare for that last struggle, and face it with dignity. I can't imagine a greater victory than having one's death be an inspiring experience for someone else.

[Josh Reyer]

We all have a fight in our future that cannot be won. Takeno Sensei showed me that kendo can help me prepare for that last struggle, and face it with dignity. I can't imagine a greater victory than having one's death be an inspiring experience for someone else.A bit off-topic, but this reminded me of the comedian Akashiya Sanma, and a great saying he attributed to his grandfather: "You come into this world naked. If you go out wearing a pair of drawers, you've won, haven't you?"

[dillon]

A bit off-topic, but this reminded me of the comedian Akashiya Sanma, and a great saying he attributed to his grandfather: "You come into this world naked. If you go out wearing a pair of drawers, you've won, haven't you?"

Don't forget clean ones!

[Charlie]

Great topic. I've actually thought about this a lot. Personally, over time, I've gotten way more into the kendo concept and charter and have tried to take it to heart in my life. But the way I've always encountered it is that kendo is very open source and interpretive and this specific aspect of it will mean different things to different people. A good topic that often comes up at second dojo, too, and in a lot of other ways.

[JByrd]

As someone put it so succinctly some time ago, kendo is about sucking a little less each day. Or as my sensei says "Don't give up! This is the kendo spirit."

"Son, all hobbies suck. But if you keep at it, you might find that in the end you’ve managed to kill some precious time." -Homer Simpson

:-)

[MithLuin]

I find it interesting that people "assume" you get more personal development just because they have that as an explicit goal.

I would almost suggest that some of the benefits happen when you don't consciously shoot for it. IMHO, some things happen easier with an empty cup. Moreover, something don't happen when you WANT it.

Also, I am truly mystified as to what you would do differently, if you have "personal development" as an explicit goal. Would someone explain how and what you would do differently AT PRACTICE when you come for the supposed personal development?

You're right that most life lessons that really hit home are the ones no one seeks out. Same is true in kendo, I'm sure (though I haven't been doing it long enough to know from personal experience). And the brutal honesty of kendo probably hits you sooner/faster than some other activities that one could engage in while developing oneself. Being a writer takes discipline and perseverance (if you are ever going to finish a book, I mean), but until you turn it over to an editor, you are free to believe that it is the best thing ever written...and your family and friends will probably agree, if you share it with them. You'll stay blind to your own flaws until you allow someone else to offer you honest criticism...and be willing to listen to them.

But as for what you would do differently in the dojo if you are consciously after 'personal development'? I imagine in some ways it's just one approach to motivation. There's always going to be days when you just don't feel like it, or something you dislike doing, so when you run into that, and you feel like complaining or blowing off practice or whatever...you can use your conscious choice to be 'better' to talk yourself into continuing to work at it. Meaning...that's your reason to keep going in the face of an obstacle. Other people, who have a different motivation for being there, would have to use a different reason - maybe 'I'm not a quitter' rather than 'I have to suck it up because this is good for me.' Also, if personal growth is something you take seriously, you will listen to other's advice, so it can be used to cultivate obedience and humility....though of course, other things can do that, too.

I guess I'm saying that it's your world view that's different, so it gives you a different internal monologue...not necessarily a different set of actions. But it is there.

[yoda-waza]

... my "idea" of personal development has changed and evolved the longer that I've done kendo and as I've gotten older, so what I was looking for when I started isn't what I'm looking for now....

This reminds me of the tag line our old friend, the late Ignatz, once had:
I want to be what I was when I wanted to be what I am now.

As for me, the older I get the better I was.

[DCPan]

I guess I'm saying that it's your world view that's different, so it gives you a different internal monologue...not necessarily a different set of actions. But it is there.

I'm simply referring to a common zen idea that "to seek enlightenment is to miss it"....

[MithLuin]

Valid point. I just don't think there's anything wrong with striving to be a better person. I mean, it can become a problem if you get hypersensitive and beat yourself up every time you fail, but, in general, it's a decent goal.

I think that actually becoming a better person is something that happens more as a result of how you deal with difficult situations that are forced upon you rather than how you handle the difficult situations you choose for yourself. So, I agree that if you choose kendo to 'become a better person'...you aren't necessarily going to grow there.

[turboyoshi]

I think that actually becoming a better person is something that happens more as a result of how you deal with difficult situations that are forced upon you rather than how you handle the difficult situations you choose for yourself.

In a way, deliberately choosing to face a difficult task means you are becoming a better person. It's more normal for people to avoid difficult stuff if they can. But again, what does "becoming a better person" mean to you? That could be different than what it means to me. So this sort of vague concept isn't actually meaningful. Some can choose to become a better asshole. And you know what, kendo can help with that. Any difficult endeavor where you are forced to evaluate your weaknesses and fix them to succeed in said endeavor, can make you a better person, whatever that means to you.

[pgsmith]

I think that actually becoming a better person is something that happens more as a result of how you deal with difficult situations that are forced upon you rather than how you handle the difficult situations you choose for yourself. So, I agree that if you choose kendo to 'become a better person'...you aren't necessarily going to grow there.
This is an incorrect statement. People grow as human beings by dealing with difficulties. If you wait on other people to force you to grow as a human being, then you are going to be less than you could have been. Tackling difficult endeavours, such as kendo, will increase your ability to utilize both your brain and your body. Just because someone doesn't force you to do kendo won't change that a bit.

Of course, what a person does with that increased brain and body utilization is much more subjective.

[MithLuin]

I understand what you are saying. What I was trying to get at is like the difference between voluntary poverty and involuntary poverty, though. Choosing to live simply and on limited means (even if you have a fallback saved up somewhere) is admirable and can help you grow through the hardships faced....but it's really not the same thing as someone who is actually poor and has little choice in the matter. That safety cushion of 'I can walk away at any time' is the difference between the hardships we choose and the ones that are foisted upon us...and while you can grow through the ones you choose yourself, the ones you don't choose tend to be much more significant hardships, and thus offer greater opportunity for growth.

So, yes, you can grow through kendo, because it has built-in hardships. You can also grow through facing the death of a parent/child/spouse. Those two 'hardships' tend not to be in the same league as one another, though. No one chooses the major challenges in life, like dealing with cancer.


But again, what does "becoming a better person" mean to you?

Simply put, it means learning to love, by which I mean willing the good of another person. The four poisons that kendo tries to eliminate certainly can get in the way of that, though I would not expect kendo, in and of itself, to teach this lesson fully.

But I'm just a beginner, so what do I know? ;)

[Musashi73]

I had this priceless conversation with my son Arthur (1st grade) on our way back from Kendo practice last week (we started Kendo 2 months ago; keep in mind that I was a little bit tired after a busy day at work and busy afternoon):

Me: [I said something about a good practice and that Arthur did a good job.]
Arthur: Yeah, but why do we always have to do things perfect and the right way, it's boring!
Me: Well, Sensei wants you to do things the right way, because that will help you win when you will be fighting in a tournament.
Arthur: Does Sensei want me to win a tournament?
Me: Yes, sure he does.
Arthur: Why?
Me: (pause) When you win a tournament, then Sensei will be very proud of you. (tell me if you have a better answer :) )
Arthur: What does it mean "proud"?

Now, Arthur is at the stage when he realized that he does not really understand the meaning of all the words that he has been using. So I explained what "proud" means and things became more complicated. I had to explain "country", "citizen" and we ended talking about religion.

And to think that it all started with a simple statement about a good practice.

Greg

[Lucien]

IMO, kendo is tough. It rarely offers an sense of achievement and you constantly struggle to 'get it right'. It's a lot like life, wouldn't you say?

[Ōzake-Jutsuka]

I'd say that practicing kendo is one way to become a better person, and a good one. What I think makes Japanese arts, be it kendo or shodō or somethine else, such powerful tools for self-improvement is the total focus on the moment and constant struggle to become better. I've never met a kendoka who sees kendo as a mere hobby, and I've never heard of elite sportsmen having the aim to constantly improve until the day they die.

Taisen Deshimaru had something interesting to say about the total focus in martial arts: "In the Japanese arts of long ago, one motion meant death, and that was the reason for the great deliberation and concentration in the movements preceding attack. On stroke and it's over: one dead man ─ sometimes two, if there were two strokes and both were as they should be. It all happens in a flash. And in that flash the mind decides, technique and body follow. In all modern sports there is a pause, but in the martial arts there is no pause. If you wait, ever so little, you're lost; your opponent gets the advantage. The mind must be constantly concentrated on the whole situation, ready to act or react; that's why it is most important."

[hl1978]

Here is a question:

How does kendo with its orientation towards shiai lead to self improvement when one may engage in shiai winning behaviour which gets in the way of long term growth?

The obvious solution is not to engage in such behaviour, but for those in a teaching role have noticed that it makes it difficult for beginners to recocile such behaviour and not engage in it themselves when they see success in doing so.

[DCPan]

How does kendo with its orientation towards shiai lead to self improvement when one may engage in shiai winning behaviour which gets in the way of long term growth?

IMHO, how one deals with the shiai winning behavior and the desires thereof is part of the long term growth, as we will deal with wanting to win and not always winning, be it on the shiai floor or real life.

YMMV.

[Fudo-Shin]

FWIW I find that I do worse in shiai when I want to win, when I just close all of that out and concentrate on good and correct kendo, I seem to do better...

And to answer HL's questions, IMO the goal is to win gracefully and correctly through hard work. It doesn't always happen that way but I think the famous shiaisha set pretty godd examples with their victory speeches and manage to contain themselves.

[enkorat]

Here is a question:

How does kendo with its orientation towards shiai lead to self improvement when one may engage in shiai winning behaviour which gets in the way of long term growth?

The obvious solution is not to engage in such behaviour, but for those in a teaching role have noticed that it makes it difficult for beginners to recocile such behaviour and not engage in it themselves when they see success in doing so.

Well, gonna have to disagree with you on a small point there, well maybe a distinction.

I think a desire to win is not connected directly to behavior. For a long time I swallowed the "have no desire to win" line and did extremely poorly in tournaments. I was hiding the fact that I was nervous and mentally not in a good place during tournaments. In fact I was essentially defeatist, and justified that by saying "I shouldn't have a desire to win".

So, after several years of being miserable at tournaments (you can probably search in the forums for posts while I was working this issue out) I forced myself to think "I want to win". If I don't have that key mental focus, I fight very poorly because naturally I tend to give in to the "poison" of doubt. It does change my behavior, in that my kendo is stronger, and more assertive, and most of my friends know exactly when I'm "on" versus when I'm having an "off" day, because the difference is enormous.

It doesn't mean that I do headbobbing whippy stuff that is sometimes characterized as "wanting to win behavior".

Just wanted to put it out there that a philosophical point can be misinterpreted....

[DCPan]

FWIW I find that I do worse in shiai when I want to win, when I just close all of that out and concentrate on good and correct kendo, I seem to do better...

That "may" work for you as an individual competitor, but that mentality will not serve you on the team.

When you fight on the dojo team, depending on the situation, you have different roles to play.

And ultimately, I think learning your role is important, even from a martial perspective.

Cornered in a dark alley by yourself?

Cornered in a dark alley with wife and kids?

YMMV.

[birch]

I found very interesting arcticle from aikido master Minoru Inaba. He explains the relationship MICHI (Do) and JUTSU, the meaning of Budo... He give us know his opinions and explanations how Budo (could be kendo, iaido, judo etc...) makes us a better person for today. How it cultivate our character with using martial arts technics and japanese samurai spirit values.

Here is link: http://www.meijijingu.or.jp/english/shiseikan/3.html

[sarge127]

Well it sorta made me a better person, it relieved a lot of my stress each practice, feeling good once i left the dojo felt like a finished a battle or something... When i was in school people looked at me differently like he's changed since he started.
But still my stress comes back to me when i give it the chance... Things for me changed, i have a good girl friend and got a job because i want to get bogu and possibly in time be graded heh but theres more to it than just being graded... Im not rank crazy or anything i just hear stories of people like being rank-crazy..
I do kendo so i can someday teach it in this school, if this school is still around in the far future, and i also do it because i just found something i really like. My parents will soon see me all changed when i go home for the holidays, so yeah it changed who i was long ago. I thank kendo for saving my life! if i didn't go to that kendo orientation in september, i'd be still the plain old silent sam who's always being tortured by the better.