Instituto Niten

[ben]

"I just saw it in a brazilian site.

The address is www.institutoniten.com.br .

It is in the rigth side of the home page."

That's a fascinating and excellent site. Thanks for the link Vagabond (mind if I call you Vadge? hehe ;))

They seem to do what they term 'kenjutsu' jigeiko in bogu using unusual techniques like tsuki to the men gane, hasso no kamae and an old Itto Ryu chudan no kamae with the shinai held horizontal at sternum level. I wonder if this has any lineage or has someone devised their own mix of styles.

Does anyone know more about this organisation? I couldn't find any English on the site.

b
-------------------------------------------
I split this thread off from another after it started going its own way - Hamish

[alexpollijr]

Oh Ben, this is a long story. But since I got time I'll tell you.

The guy behind that 'school' is Jorge Kishikawa, a 7th dan kendoka. This guy won the brazilian tournament many times in the past, when there were little organization and the strongest opponents wouldn't care to go there.

His family runs a kendo dojo. One day, he noticed that the repetitive nature of kendo wasn't attracting many students (money). So he decided to abolish the rules from kendo, add some weird kamae and waza he claims is from many different koryu, he created this aberration called 'kenjutsu', which is nothing but kendo with much, MUCH broader datotsu rules. Even nonexistant sometimes.

So now he has a store of extremely overpriced kendo goods and a money machine, which is 'Instituto Niten', since the merry-go-round nature of this kenjutsu bullshit attracts a lot of would-be samurais, that kind that does not lest two months in a kendo dojo.

Nonetheless, a lot of kendo people, including my sensei, mr Tsushima, General Consul for Japan and Kendo/Iaido 5th dan and member of the ZNKR board of directors, actually despises kishikawa and his pseudo-samurai stuff.

So, I advise you to forget about it. It's just another ripoff to make lots of money over a romantic idea of the samurai of old.

[ben]

Thanks for the reply Alex.

Yeah we've got one of those guys over here. His operation is not nearly as slick or as interesting as Kishikawa's though.

Must say I'm curious about the use various kamae from koryu, and so on. I believe there was a lot more of this once upon a time in Meiji and Taisho era kendo dojos (you know, stories of classes at Busen where the bout didn't end until you had ripped your opponents men off). My sensei (in his 80s) remembers pre-war keiko where there were (seemingly) no rules for tatotsu. So maybe Kishikawa originally had an decent idea. I've seen much worse.

Still, I did start to wonder when I saw his photo on the site and saw how young he was. The title *soke* sent alarm bells ringing...
:)

b

[alexpollijr]

Well, I can't really tell about these different kamae, most of them seem so obnoxious. Like this chudan when the shinai stays horizontal. That looks like it was ripped off some pseudo-samurai japanese cartoon like that one of the guy with the red hair everyone talks about.

That guy claims the soke of both suyo ryu and niten ichi ryu has 'authorized' him to teach it. However, he does not. You can't fill in for niten ichi ryu classes because there is no such class. First, I doubt that those soke really authorized him, and second, I really doubt that they would like to see their styles mish-mashed in this stuff he calls kenjutsu.

But indeed, it's very popular among kids down here (kids in both physical and mental age, if you know what I mean :rolleyes: )

It's like chambara I think, just a little less ludicrous.

PS> I've just 'rambled' the thread :D

[Ian Russell]

If anyone is actually interested, there is a thread (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9840) at E-Budo from a while back where the Instituto Niten was discussed (flamed?). Unfortunately, it's not a particularly pretty thread but makes for some interesting reading nonetheless, especially what Hyakutake sensei had to say.

Cheers,

[Vagabond]

Ben

I`ll try to visit their dojo here in Salvador this weekend.
I liked their website too.

Marcelo "Vadge"

[hamish]

I liked the intro slide that mentioned Musashi and had the guy in bogu standing in the sea :) salt stains without the hard work!!

Hamish

[kendokamax]

some of the kamae from that kenjutsushinaido (euh) look "fun/cool/interesting/exotic" It doen't look too ugly, actualy I find it interesting.

But I just wonder, would all these weird kamae are really usefull with shinai?

This piss me off sometimes, a little, people use these kamae calling them the real way of the sword but.....they still use shinai!

....WHY would You use waki(spell?) kamae when your oponent already know that you are hiding a shinai (he even knows the lengh of it ) in your back.

In kendo there is regulations for shinai lenght and weight because everyone is supose to be fighting with the same stuff. But if you are to do koryu or whatever why would you use a shinai?? Why do you have to restrain yourself to having all the same weapons?? They should have the oportunity to make their own weapon. Why do they have to use protective gear of kendo?
They also restrain themselves to hiting the same area as we use in kendo.

I think by that way of thinking chambara is more a martial art than this kenjutsu thing.

Remember when I was talking about my crazy kendo.. Sometimes very rarely! I would use hasso kamae (against a dojo friend) or whatever just to do something fun....(happy kendo) but I don't think of it as serious kendo. It's only a matter of playing around doing stupid stuff. But these kenjutsu people looks like they takes themselves and their techniques very seriously.

But are they really effective (considering they use shinai)?

[mingshi]

I was about to start some arguement with Alex Polli in PM, but haha, I'm not the only one!

http://www.bushinavi.com/~nojiai/

This is some strange Japanese organization called "Modern Wild Competition Association" (Gendai No-jiai Renmei). Scroll down to the list in the middle for some of their pictures.

They're, I guess, doing this for fun and not for martial arts. They run around some forest/park, with their own hand-made armour and handmade weapons!!! It's not limited to Chudan, Jodan, Nito or even Naginata.
http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/pehota/archive/010819/010819a.JPG

This looks exactly like Chambara. But most of the time they fight in teams, or against many people. And it's really funny to watch, because they're actually very serious in making all their gears, flags and stuff. It would be *fun* to be able to fight like that, although you might think that's too childish. Mmmm.... sometimes I do think Shinai Kendo lack this.

http://www.bushinavi.com/~nojiai/kiroku/sekigahara2000/oogaki20001009/014.JPG
Not to mention they can also fight like gangs on the main street with pedestrians behind them!

*****
About using different kamae..... Say Hasso and Waki..... You can only use them only if YOU KNOW HOW! I would suggest that, because modern Kendo limits the places you can hit, Hasso and Waki cannot be as significant. Hasso --good for cuts on for necks and knees, but in Kendo those are not allowed, and you've exposed too much of your own kote. Waki --haha, more or less the same thing. The sword movement can be so preditable because from Waki there's only one movement they'll do in modern Kendo, which is an overhead swing. Don't forget that with Waki your Tsuki is very opened.

If your Sensei allows, try "crazy kendo" some time and you'll see how hard it is. Maybe ask you Sensei to fight you in other Kamae? But I'd say a good swordman can fight from any Kamae. Haha...Happy Kendo!:D

[Ares2907]

Speaking of weirdos running around hitting each other with shinai . . .

www.shinai.org


Ares2907

[olaf]

Speaking of strange people developing odd weapons and exotic fighting techniques to "combat" each other while being too afraid to engage in a real contact sport, it would appear that this isn't limited to the anime/manga crowd, and their obsession with all the ninja stuff.

My friends tell me that in the United States, there is a nationwide group called the "SCA" that reconstructs medieval weapons and armor from pipes and stuff and then stages mock battles...

As for Instituto Niten, there's always one of those in every corner of the globe...usually started by some fellow with minimal exposure to whatever cultural art he's about to ruin, but with a keen mind for marketing the stuff...maybe I should call it "pop-budo". It's surprising that in this case, it's actually started by a respectable 7-dan fellow...

[kendo_chick]

If anyone has heard of the game Everquest you may find this interesting....

<a href="http://www.semi-conscio.us/rofl/fight.mpeg">

along the lines of people dressing up and play fighting... Sorry if it is too much off topic..

[ben]

"My friends tell me that in the United States, there is a nationwide group called the "SCA" that reconstructs medieval weapons and armor from pipes and stuff and then stages mock battles... "


SCA looks pretty funny to most, but I must say in its defence that we have a guy in our dojo who is pretty committed to it and to kendo as well. I think there has been a high degree of research into medieval fighting styles by alot of SCA practitioners (Achilles - you say on your site that you used to do SCA Heavy). I know Toda sensei was keen to find out more from our guy about European two sword traditions. Unfortunately Toda's schedule didn't allow the time...

I concur with Mingshi, good luck to them. They are doing something different, silly and mildy courageous.

b

BTW and FTR I didn't start this thread. Someone else pasted my post at the head.

[David J]

Originally posted by ben
They are doing something different, silly and mildy courageous.


A bit like us then....:D

[Matthew Lagden]

britain is full of people who dress up like knights in armour on a weekend and pretend to refight battles - just type "medieval re-enactment" into google and you'll get 25,000 sites come up.

go to any country fayre type event and you'll find people pretending to be anything from vikings to WW2 soldiers.

i've never known quite what to make of it. i'm speccy and not exactly beefcake myself but i found the sight of a spectacle wearing office worker dressed up as a viking warrior hilarious.

i did my masters thesis on them, but at the end of it i was no closer to understanding their motivation than i was at the beginning.

and i thought we were strange....

[lewis]

The US has a whole slew of "made-up" kenjutsu schools with crackpot senseis of varying degrees of ability and honesty. I found it interesting that even Musashi went on a tirade about schools invented just for the purpose of making money by selling swordsmanship. I guess we should consider it a time honored tradition.

[Sidharta]

My name is Sidharta Rezende, and I'm the webmaster of the Niten Institute site.

This thread came to my knownledge some time ago, but untill now, I had not time to aswer appropriately. I ask apologizes for the delay in my aswer.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Kendo World's team for the wonderfull work, both in the site and in the magazine.

I wrote a page in english in our website, summarizing the main topics of our site. I hope that this text corrects the wrong idea generated by wrong information given by people who do not belong to the Niten Institute and knows nothing about the work developed in our organization.

http://www.niten.org.br/english

I´m sad with the way this thread ended, comparing our group with organizations that do not respect the ideal of the budo. Its my wish that the link above clarifyes our position, showing that we are a serious organization, conducted by serious and respected people.

I ask to all who wants to know more about the Niten Institute ask direct to us, throw the e-mail niten@niten.org.br.

Last, I would like to invite everybody who comes to our country to visit our dojo.

Thank you for your time

[Alex]

Dear Sidharta,

thank you for your post. I don't know Jorge well, but I have been friends with his brother Roberto for a number of years now. You couldn't tell me where he is now could you? He's a hard man to keep track of.

Jorge is quite well known in Japan from the days where he used to carry his bogu around to police dojos.�@Scary pastime!

cheers,

Alex:rambo:

[Charlie]

Hate to fan the flames, but there seems to be some legitimate concerns over this issue. If you'd like there is an informative thread at:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=9840&highlight=Sidharta+S+Rezende

[Vagabond]

I saw Jorge and Roberto fighting in a championship many years ago, and found their kendo very impresive. Their parents were very good too.

[Charlie]

Whoops! I just saw that Iain already pointed folks to the e-budo thread. Sorry!

[Vagabond]

After reading Mr Rezende's post, I made a web (re)search about kendo using kenjutsu influence and found this site:
United States Classical Kendo Federation (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Garden/6305/)
Can anyone tell me more about then?
Marcelo

[ben]

I corresponded with David Diguanco (head of the Ogden, Utah dojo) a while back trying to find out more. He sent me a fairly comprehensive list of grading requirements for their different levels (they appear to award kenjutsu style shogo, but also indicate their AJKF dan equivalence, e.g menkyo = 8 dan). He was very helpful at the time but I too know little more than what's contained on their website. The main difference between this (Sakurai Ha) Kohgen Itto Ryu and kendo, apart from having sojutsu (spear) and taiyoho (unarmed) techniques, appears to be the emphasis in shiai on mutual killing, ie ai-uchi is scored as a point to both competitors, rather than the no score situation of AJKF kendo.

I'd also be interested to hear from anyone who has done this style of kendo.

b

[alexpollijr]

I don't know man, gotta be wary of these things.

These weird many-technique website with pictures of only one fatty little western guy in his 30s dressed in indigo kendo practice clothes doind these weird stuff... it always rings one alarm or two.

[YAMANTAKA]

Originally posted by alexpollijr
Oh Ben, this is a long story. But since I got time I'll tell you.
The guy behind that 'school' is Jorge Kishikawa, a 7th dan kendoka. This guy won the brazilian tournament many times in the past, when there were little organization and the strongest opponents wouldn't care to go there.
His family runs a kendo dojo. One day, he noticed that the repetitive nature of kendo wasn't attracting many students (money). So he decided to abolish the rules from kendo, add some weird kamae and waza he claims is from many different koryu, he created this aberration called 'kenjutsu', which is nothing but kendo with much, MUCH broader datotsu rules. Even nonexistant sometimes.
So now he has a store of extremely overpriced kendo goods and a money machine, which is 'Instituto Niten', since the merry-go-round nature of this kenjutsu bullshit attracts a lot of would-be samurais, that kind that does not lest two months in a kendo dojo.
Nonetheless, a lot of kendo people, including my sensei, mr Tsushima, General Consul for Japan and Kendo/Iaido 5th dan and member of the ZNKR board of directors, actually despises kishikawa and his pseudo-samurai stuff.
So, I advise you to forget about it. It's just another ripoff to make lots of money over a romantic idea of the samurai of old.

YAMANTAKA : Hello, All!
First, let me present myself : My name is Ubaldo Alcantara and I was the one involved in that aggressive thread with Mr. Kishikawa's people in E-Budo. If you read it carefully, you shall see that :
a) I admited that Mr. Kishikawa's association with Kendo was a long and quite respected one but his experience in Kenjutsu was not very extensive. He, himself, proposed in his website that "He who knows Kendo, does not know kenjutsu";
b) I asked his representative if he had a Menkyo Kaiden or some specific authorization in the Koryu he said he was a teacher in Brazil;
c) as an answer, the Instituto Niten and some people began to heavily trash me about, attacking me and not my questions;
d) the great majority of people at E-Budo complained about the Instituto Niten people's atitudes and agreed with my position;
e) finally, Mr. Sidarta Rezende abandoned the thread, saying that the Institute would place Mr. Kishikawa's certifications from the Suio Ryu and the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu on their Webpage "for all to see"; AND
f) They didn't do it and today no certificate has been placed on their website.
My real problem with Mr. Kishikawa is that his whole story is unproven. I made contact with a member of the Suio Ryu and heard that he was "a pupil of that school" and many others from the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu have agreed about Kishikawa's small amount of training and the lesser grade of certification (if any) that he might possess.
But - and that is positively wrong - Mr. Kishikawa not only is teaching and giving "certificates" to his students in Brazil BUT HE'S SENDING THOSE STUDENTS TO TEACH IN MANY BRAZILIAN STATES. A man who doesn't have proficiency in Kenjutsu is sending his even less proficient students abroad to teach!!! (HE WHO KNOWS KENDO DOES NOT KNOW KENJUTSU...)
I can't believe any kind of certification (if any) from the Ryu would allow him to do that!
As my friend Hyakutake (also from the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu) and some other people from E-Budo has stated it will be easy for the Instituto Niten people to end those questions :
PLACE KISHIKAWA'S CERTIFICATIONS FROM THE RYU IN HIS WEBSITE.
That'll end any existing doubts.
As a last point, I would like to explain that I do not want to have a flame war here, as there was one on E-Budo. I have just some reasonable questions to the Instituto Niten people :
a) How long has Mr. Kishikawa been training Kenjutsu with the Suio Ryu and the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu ?
b) What certificate did he achive ?
c) Could he place it or them on his website?
d) Is he sending his students to other states in Brazil to teach Suio Ryu and Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu?
Simple answers to those questions will end all doubts.
With all due respect :cool:

[Charlie]

Ubaldo! Nice to see you here, sir.

On Classical Kendo - I actually have worked out with these guys, because their hombu dojo is in Columbus, OH, and I got to practice with some of their members at the annual kendo tourney in Cleveland. A bunch of swell folks. The soke of the style, Kotaka I think his name is, was at one time pres. of the Midwest Kendo Fed., if I'm not mistaken. From what I know of him, he has tried to make kendo more like what it was like before the turn of the century, more of a blend of kendo and kenjutsu. Also, I understand Kotaka is a licensed teacher of a koryu style. So, basically, Classical Kendo tries to keep the shinai kendo as a way of practicing kenjutsu, with also emphasis on other weapons, kata, iai, and some grappling.

All the guys I worked out with were really good but kind of frustrated with the rigidity of kendo rules. Like, they wanted to be able to shift kamae and stuff, and didn't really care so much about points as just, you know, cutting their opponent. Anyway, a bunch of swell folks under an eclectic and knowledgable teacher.

[tetsuoxb]

Just wanted to make one point..

Gator Kendo Club is NOT the same thing as Gator Bujutsu. Gator Kendo is entering it's third year at UF and practices kendo under Kataoka-sensei of NYCKC and by the ZNKR rules.

I dont know anything about this USCKF gainesville dojo, and at this point I am not sure I want to know anything.

If I wasn't in Japan, I would go check them out.. but being 10000 miles away and having better things to do, I figured id just stop any confusion before it started.

[YAMANTAKA]

Originally posted by Charlie
Ubaldo! Nice to see you here, sir.


YAMANTAKA : The same to you, my friend. It's good to see your warm welcome.
I subscribed to this Forum because I heard my name was cited on that E-Budo thread and I want to make clear my points concerning the Instituto Niten people and Mr. Jorge Kishikawa.
I know you're quite knowledgeable about those points from the E-Budo thread.
Best regards and always a good keiko

[NewGuy]

"My friends tell me that in the United States, there is a nationwide group called the "SCA" that reconstructs medieval weapons and armor from pipes and stuff and then stages mock battles... "


SCA looks pretty funny to most, but I must say in its defence that we have a guy in our dojo who is pretty committed to it and to kendo as well. I think there has been a high degree of research into medieval fighting styles by alot of SCA practitioners (Achilles - you say on your site that you used to do SCA Heavy). I know Toda sensei was keen to find out more from our guy about European two sword traditions. Unfortunately Toda's schedule didn't allow the time...

I concur with Mingshi, good luck to them. They are doing something different, silly and mildy courageous.

b

BTW and FTR I didn't start this thread. Someone else pasted my post at the head.

I've never seen a European 2 sword "technique". I have seen a dagger in one hand and a sword or rapier in the other. This is the "original" dueling/fencing style. I have seen men at events use two swords but usually it was for defence against a long weapon or multiple enemies... Curious thing to look up, though.

[chidokan]

I think its probably down initially to an interest in the period and a way of trying to appreciate what things were like trying to fight with these weapons. As with all MA, its not as easy as it looks to hit someone, unless of course, as in kendo, you have a lot of experience and he doesnt. I wouldnt mind having a go against a reasonably competent swordsman just to compare the weapon style and techniques used, its the type of thing I find interesting. I have had a play with a longbow the other week and was amazed how far the arrows can go, I shot(?) over 200 metres with one. Apparently old English bows went up to 140 pounds, twice what I used. Must have been a hell of a piece of wood...... :confused2

[jmarsten]

Is this person related to Roberto Kishikawa?

[mad_god]

Well, I can't really tell about these different kamae, most of them seem so obnoxious. Like this chudan when the shinai stays horizontal. That looks like it was ripped off some pseudo-samurai japanese cartoon like that one of the guy with the red hair everyone talks about.

That guy claims the soke of both suyo ryu and niten ichi ryu has 'authorized' him to teach it. However, he does not. You can't fill in for niten ichi ryu classes because there is no such class. First, I doubt that those soke really authorized him, and second, I really doubt that they would like to see their styles mish-mashed in this stuff he calls kenjutsu.

But indeed, it's very popular among kids down here (kids in both physical and mental age, if you know what I mean :rolleyes: )

It's like chambara I think, just a little less ludicrous.

PS> I've just 'rambled' the thread :D

There are plenty of kamaes that doens't necessary fit your expectation.
Different schools (ryu-ha) had different kamaes, different techniques and different philosophies.
Don't think that your small Kendo point of view is everything.

MAD GOD

[ben]

Wow dude, this thread's three years old. You're bitching at someone who hasn;t poster here from probably 18 months at least. You sure did trawl through some old threads to pick a fight today didn't you.

Makes me think maybe we should create a Curmudgeon Hall of Fame. I'm sure Mingshi would nominate the late Confound for induction. Anyone remember Achilles and his kumdo chip? And of course, how could we forget Daqotah!

:D

b

PS - Oh I suppose HaiHai you'd be eligible. It just seems that lately you've lost your spark. I suppose it's the way of all curmudgeons. Either they get banned or they just fade away...

[mad_god]

Wow dude, this thread's three years old. You're bitching at someone who hasn;t poster here from probably 18 months at least. You sure did trawl through some old threads to pick a fight today didn't you.


People discuss things that they practice decades.
It's not my purpose bitch anyone, but things must be clarified to don't let wrong ideas spreading around....
Besides, I was sure someone (like you) would read it.
Peace.

MG

[Kaoru]

I sure wish people would stop replying to this thread. The Instituto Niten is not an authentic HNIR dojo. So, it is moot to even discuss it.

Let's not talk anymore about this subject. Mad God-san, replying to it was useless. The discussion was ended ages ago. Let it sleep please. Thank you. :)

Oyasuminasai thread! *Tucks it in for bed*

Kaoru

[mad_god]

Is this person related to Roberto Kishikawa?

I just remembered it....!
Is Roberto Kishikawa the guy from Brazil that participated several times in WKC?
I saw his matches in Paris WKC 1994.
His style is nice, and if I am not wrong, he won 2 korean players...
Very impressive.

MAD GOD

[mingshi]

I just remembered it....!
Is Roberto Kishikawa the guy from Brazil that participated several times in WKC?
I saw his matches in Paris WKC 1994.
His style is nice, and if I am not wrong, he won 2 korean players...
Very impressive.

MAD GOD
OMG... Holy sh!t!!!!!
...And he's now my sensei!! :eek:

[mad_god]

OMG... Holy sh!t!!!!!
...And he's now my sensei!! :eek:

Good choice...!!!

[Paikea]

Makes me think maybe we should create a Curmudgeon Hall of Fame. I'm sure Mingshi would nominate the late Confound for induction. Anyone remember Achilles and his kumdo chip? And of course, how could we forget Daqotah!Let's welcome Mad God to the plonk list with the rest of the cranks.


Oh I suppose HaiHai you'd be eligible. It just seems that lately you've lost your spark. I suppose it's the way of all curmudgeons. Either they get banned or they just fade away...
Yeah, what's up with that? Hai Hai adds a touch of literate wit to the curmudgeon pool that the rest secretly aspire to achieve. I suspect the moderating influence of a female in this notable sparklessness, or possibly a lack of fiber in the diet.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Let's welcome Mad God to the plonk list with the rest of the cranks.
I nominate him for the 2005 KW Lazarus award.