arriving late for training

[nikozamo]

now in my dojo the senpai are trying to start the kendo training at the correct time... and some people arrives late... different reasons... work, study, traffic, etc. and they are doing this: classificate pleople... the ones that ''really'' can't arrive early because of work or study and the people that arrives later for any other reason. with the second part of people they are doing some ''kendo-punishments''... like doing 200 hayasuburi meanwhile the rest are doing keiko. we are clear that it's not really a punishment... but it's a little shameful and like i'd say in other thread our dojo it's recreative/formative. (it's kendo, not army! :rambo: )

no one wants to arrive later, but happens!

i will be honest... with this kind of rules sometimes is difficult to enjoy the training...

[UnimportantHero]

Sounds like pretty standard procedure for most martial arts training groups, in any martial art. Back when I did wushu, when anyone in the elite level classes was later than ten minutes after class start, they had to do something like 300 sit ups and some huge amount of jumping jacks. Ultimately, it is just going to make you better at what you are doing, so try to take it in stride. Or not be late.

[Charlie]

Good call, UH. I would try to take a positive attitude toward it. I'm often late due to work. I'd do my 200 hayasuburi as a grateful penance.

It's the kendo way. Shugyo.

[nikozamo]

right... but still annoying :D i will try to take it easy (sometimes it's a difficult for me) and do iaido sometimes when i need to chill out from the kendo shugyo

[turboyoshi]

Well, it's common, especially among the macho karate type schools but I still think it's stupid and childish. It's much more sensible for sensei to just pay more attention to those who show a serious attitude towards their training and less attention to those who are less serious.

[Halcyon]

it's kendo, not army! :rambo:
Actually, it kinda IS the army. Think about what a dojo is historically -- a place where samurai learned combat. That's why you have all the martial rules and etiquette, such as lining up in a row, strict hierarchical structure, etc.

[nikozamo]

Well, it's common, especially among the macho karate type schools but I still think it's stupid and childish. It's much more sensible for sensei to just pay more attention to those who show a serious attitude towards their training and less attention to those who are less serious.

totally agree... but still being serious have nothing to do with the time you can arrive to the dojo.


Halcyion... we are not anymore in feudal japan... OK its a martial art... but sometimes like turboyoshi said it's just childish

[Charlie]

In most of the dojo in which I have practiced, lateness is tolerated. People come late due to school, work, kids. The only thing I would not find acceptable is someone being abusive about it. Granted, what we find acceptable in kendo seems to border "abuse." But I think it's appropriate to do a little something extra for lateness, again I use the word "penance." In American English we would say it's okay for sensei to "give you shit" about it. Let's remember that an oral teaching of kendo states to always be early for kendo practice so that you may greet the sensei and show him your eagerness to train.

[nikozamo]

i think lateness can't be tolerated when you are doing nothing, chatting with the people or being to slow put your bogu on and do some warm-up to practice. otherwise... just like i said before...

[Halcyon]

Halcyion... we are not anymore in feudal japan... OK its a martial art... but sometimes like turboyoshi said it's just childish
Of course. Just noting where the martial culture comes from.

If you are unavoidably late because of work, etc., that's fine. But it's just plain rude if you are chronically late because you just can't get your act together or because you want to jump right into keiko without the warmups and suburi and footwork. This is the kind of exceptionalism that I suspect your sempai may be trying to address.

[stealth_monkey]

At the end of the day though, 200 hyasuburi would take what, a couple of minutes? While I may be wrong, what it sounds like is that you're arriving once keiko has started and want to jump right in. Your instructors would likely be trying to ensure that you are properly warmed up before they dump you into the class, with I'll admit a bit of punishment thrown in.

While lateness is not punished in our dojo, latecomers are expected to spend a good 5-10 minutes warming up before joining the class. If I was to look at that negatively, I could also complain that people are punished by sitting out of the class for 10 minutes if they're late.

Edit, damn, Paul beat me to it :(

[Anorymous]

Tardiness should be judged on a case-by-case method. If there's one student who was late once, due to an accident causing traffic, and is generally enthusiastic about learning kendou, he/she shouldn't face too many repercussions. Or at least, not as many as the one that's habitually late for no apparent reason, and cares little for learning.

[IronWarrior]

Kendo is Serious Business.

[jjcruiser]

I agree with a lot of these comments. I simultaneously hate being late myself but it sometimes happens because of work and family and I can't help it. That said, it's fair to criticize me for it. But I think it's a much more effective criticism for sensei to just take you less seriously than pushups or what have you. We have several people come in late at our dojo, sometimes half an hour or an hour late, and no one sweats it (that I notice). The problem occurs, and this isn't unique to Kendo, when a culture of showing up late ensues, and then everything keeps getting pushed back and back until everyone is used to starting 15 minutes late and so even the people that would otherwise be on time are not bothering because nothing starts until later. That's where I think a foot needs to be put down (even if it is on me).

[b8amack]

I think Halcyon touched on the main issue. Late or chronically late. Everyone sometimes can't make appointments. It happens. But some people are habitually late, and it's not always because of poor planning. There was a guy recently who would show up just a few minutes after we all bowed in, always apologetic. But somehow he never finished changing until we were all finished pre-bogu kihon. Never. Even if it took over half an hour. First in line for jigeiko, but if we were still doing kakari geiko or renzoku waza (if I understand that last term correctly; yongong yonsup over here), for some reason there was always a problem with his do or men himo, or it took 6 times to fold that tenugui.

[turboyoshi]

. First in line for jigeiko, but if we were still doing kakari geiko or renzoku waza (if I understand that last term correctly; yongong yonsup over here)

Punishment probably isn't going to change this person's behavior, unless the punishment takes up all his jigeiko time. If the sensei just ignored him when he tries to jigeiko with them, I bet that would fix things fast.
At any rate, if he only does the parts of kendo he likes, his kendo is going to get to a point where it stops improving, so who cares what he does? The only one who gets hurt by his behavior is himself.

[jd111]

It does my head it when people are ritually late. I don't mid people that are
late due to work during te week etc. But some people seem to push it every session. It takes up my training time and effectivly wastes everyones money. As we have to pay fees to rent the halls

[Tort-Speed]

One way to reach people who habitually (ruling out work, family etc.) can't get it together to be on time, is through peer-group pressure (like in school, letting fellow students show by example or friendly comment, how things should best be done). In our newish Tokyo dojo on weekends and public holidays in particular, there's little space for people to come in once practice has begun. They have to walk/cut through lines of people waiting to keiko with the higher level Dans. Latecomers can therefore not only be easily seen, but felt, as they try to thread their way around, between or sometimes behind others in full bogu, sometimes even being charged into by keiko-ers or backed into by those seme'd or tsuki'd across the room.
At weekday practice, although it too starts from, yawn, 6:55 a.m., few people are late I suppose because for most, pre-keiko warming up is an awakener and a chance to say howdy to others.
Of course not always or maybe even sometimes possible, but if the entrance to the practice area makes people walk through ongoing keiko, that may be an effective reminder to be early.#&%X@ the room's swaying again, bye (but lucky no tsunami out this way...yet)

[jjcruiser]

At weekday practice, although it too starts from, yawn, 6:55 a.m., few people are late I suppose because for most, pre-keiko warming up is an awakener and a chance to say howdy to others.


You have practices starting at 6:55am? That's awesome. In all of Southern California I'm not aware of a single early morning practice (and for work/family reasons, I wish one existed so I could got 2x or 3x a week instead of my usual once).

[b8amack]

There's a six am one where I practice. I tried to wake up for it during my holidays, but it was a no-go.

[Tort-Speed]

Well, jjcruiser, it sounds good and feels good and in spring/summer the dawn is beautiful indeed, but about 8 pm hard to keep the eyes open. The Dojo started by the then-company President on company land, for the employees and him of course, needed to have pre-work keiko; staff could also "work out" 3 evenings from about 6. Most people (and nowadays not as many in the morning sessions are company staff, who tend to come after work) make it part of their daily routine: stopping in for keiko, shower/hot bath, and on to work; weekends bring many visitors, while those "regulars" probably sleep in. Yes, certainly convenient for working people but later the zzzz's hit. The big drum announcing meditation is at 6:55, then keiko itself right after.

[Halcyon]

At any rate, if he only does the parts of kendo he likes, his kendo is going to get to a point where it stops improving, so who cares what he does? The only one who gets hurt by his behavior is himself.
True to an extent. He's mostly hurting himself, but he's also hurting the dojo mojo. How does he hurt thee? Let me count the ways. He's setting a bad example for his kohai. He's disrespecting his dojo mates, in essence saying "I'm above doing kihon. You blowhards can knock yourself out with kihon. I'll just swoop in for dessert." This kind of exceptionalism creates a bad vibe. A dojo is not like a gym, where you come and go as you please according to what's convenient for you. This group ethos is one of the things that defines the "culture" or atmosphere of a dojo.

There are a few different ways you can "fix" this kind of thing. As you mentioned, the sensei can freeze him out of jigeiko, or do REALLY short jigeiko with him. But this can also create a bad vibe. In a very traditional dojo, the sempai enforcers would knock the crap out of him during jigeiko until he gets the message. But this doesn't work very well in cultures that don't already have a tradition of sempai enforcers. The other is to go the opposite route and give him MORE responsibility, say, by making him teach beginners. If you're interested in his development as a human being rather than punishing him and be done with it, that last method may be the way to go.

[0746]

I can't see any valid reasons for any ideas of punishments or any other type of positive or negative special treatments of those who are late. In this day and age, people do kendo for their own reasons. I doubt anyone here serious about kendo will disagree with that. So whether someone is late for any special reason like accidents or what not or just wants to join in for keiko...should be their business. If it disrupts your training (i don't see how unless you stop your training to go greet them or something), make a dojo rule like you cant join into training if they are late or let talk to them about not disrupting others if they cause problems when they enter.

Besides, the sort of discipline you'll insert into them through punishment will not last very long and if they are weak minded, will probably in turn make them do the same to their juniors and this cycle may just prove to deter people from kendo. Whether it helps them or not is really irrelevant here because if you have to punish someone for being lax, you know it yourself that you are doing it to satisfy your own rules and not doing it for their sake.

Anyways, just another perspective...

[turboyoshi]

This kind of exceptionalism creates a bad vibe.

You make some good points there and I have to agree, that if the behavior is serious enough to affect the atmosphere of the dojo, then it needs to be dealt with. I wouldn't object to a bit of sempai enforcery for those situations.

[Tort-Speed]

b8amack, aren't you at a university so that 6 a.m. keiko would be so people can practice before morning classes?

[b8amack]

b8amack, aren't you at a university so that 6 a.m. keiko would be so people can practice before morning classes?

No, not at a uni. It's for anyone. From the people I've met from that time, I think it's mostly working people and retirees. Which just makes me feel lazier for not getting up to do it.

[dillon]

First in line for jigeiko, but if we were still doing kakari geiko or renzoku waza (if I understand that last term correctly; yongong yonsup over here), for some reason there was always a problem with his do or men himo, or it took 6 times to fold that tenugui.

One policy I've come across to deal with this is that if bogu comes undone, your practice is over and you either sit out and watch or go change. This deters himo conveniently coming undone when things get tough as well as gets people to learn to tie their equipment correctly the first time. At the same time, it should be emphasized that only slip knots be used for safety's sake.

[b8amack]

That seems a bit strong, honestly.

[Maro]

b8amack, aren't you at a university so that 6 a.m. keiko would be so people can practice before morning classes?

At Uni - never.

As for "punishment", it's up to the instructor. The person is paying fees so it's between him and the instructor, not you.

I train in an area that has atrocious parking - it can seriously take over 20 minutes to park sometimes.

If people are late, it doesn't bother me.

[BAMBINOMONTANA]

I try to get in the dojo 20 minutes ealier in order to get a good strech out and warm-up. There is no action taken to those who arrive late, it does cause some disruption when we line-up.

[Are2]

Actually, it kinda IS the army. Think about what a dojo is historically -- a place where samurai learned combat. That's why you have all the martial rules and etiquette, such as lining up in a row, strict hierarchical structure, etc.
If you want to think about the dojo historically (pre-Meiji), then no. It was training for warriors, not freshly drafted soldiers; people who could already train seriously and do what they are told without strict enforced discipline. The number of trainees was relatively small and each already knew his place in the hierarchy, so no need to enforce that either. Training was personal, so if you came late it was your own problem, no one elses.

Strict rules and etiquette in modern budo are influenced by the imperial military, their incorporation as physical education in schools and the practical needs for training large numbers.

Our iai-group is small so training is pretty personalised from the beginning and the only guidelines I tell them are "train safely" and " be considerate." As for arriving late, leaving early, not showing up, not listening... it's their training. I might mention it once or twice, but If they don't wanna learn, I don't have to try and make 'em.

Maybe they'll notice that everyone else is getting ahead, maybe not. They're not even paying me for results, but the club for a chance to train. (And I'm a relatively low grade, so I don't really even teach; I just show and share what I know)

[still learning]

We have a relatively new starter;
He advised when joining that being there at the kick-off would be almost impossible for him due to work/shift times and distance to travel.
He noted that he would [commonly] be about 10 minutes late;- he was accurate in his assessment.
We make no fuss - when he arrives he is invited to 'join the floor' when it is appropriate/safe to so do. Usually he waits for a couple of minutes - employing this waiting time to stretch/warm up.

As we are in the Communication Age - - a text to say 'on way but behind schedule' should be a simple matter...... and is only courteous to the group/group-leaders.

When training in Japan at the invitation of 'our' Hachi Dan.... we attended a Thursday evening group, is/was led by 'his' top 7th Dan, which began at 18:30 - - but we could not attend until 19:00 hrs; of this the 7th Dan was informed.

On arrival - having changed/stretched/warmed up etc........... [B]we knelt at the edge of the floor and waited for top-bod to invite us to join the training. The wait was about 10 minutes. Not too onerous.

Perhaps persistantly tardy folks could be made to kneel and wait in this manner...... and if some kind of pennance/warm up is deemed appropriate..... how about continuous Kiri Kaeshi..... for perhaps 10 or 15 minutes..... [I have also had the pleasure of this treatment.... but the KK lasted for 20 minutes - - at the end of which I was quite warm.....]

[emitbrownne]

Kendo is Serious Business.

no its not.

[IronWarrior]

no its not.

lol, you totally don't get it.

[Josh Reyer]

Just offering this as another perspective, not as any comment on right vs. wrong.

In the dojo I practice in, a koryu that teaches both paired kata and batto, training starts at a specific time, regardless of how many students are there, and various people come in at all times from start to finish. There's no real sense of being late in the sense of non-punctual. If you are there on time for the paired kata practice, you are matched up with a partner. If you come late, you'll have to wait until a partner opens up, or another late-comer comes. With batto, someone can demonstrate up to four forms to the soke in the first half-hour, three in the second half-hour, two in the third half-hour, and one in the last half-hour (really 15-20 minutes before keiko ends), and demonstration for the soke is by order of arrival.

In either case, the penalty for being late is inherent in the lateness: less time to practice, less opportunity to receive instruction from the sensei. So there's not even an issue. People who are eager practice, who want every minute they can get, they find a way to come on time, or even early, to take most advantage of their time with the sensei. People for whom other things take precedence, for whatever reason good or bad, will have that naturally reflect in their rate of progression, without any special attention (or lack thereof) from the sensei. And the same is true of those who, for whatever reason, leave early. From X time to Y time, this is your window for keiko, and it's up to you to make use of it, however you can and however you will. You get out of it exactly what you put into it.

[enkorat]

In some ways I think that this is largely dependent on your dojo. At my very first dojo, lateness particularly for beginners who were expected to mop the floor prior to practice was not tolerated, and resulted in a very public and very loud scolding. I can pretty much recite the lecture I received, word for word, and I've never forgotten it.

During my time at graduate school, I practiced at two different places. One was a college club primarily of undergraduates who practiced from 8:30 AM to 10 AM on Saturdays. Needless to say, getting people to start punctually was initially a challenge, because people felt very casual about showing up on time. This was a club that was run by two volunteer senseis, although we paid dues none of the money went to the instructor. So in some sense, it was not a commercial transaction, and our sensei also used our practice to improve his own kendo. So to get everyone to show up on time, it took at least a year or so, and I had to employ several different strategies. One was that our club website explicitly stated that we would start on time, and for several years I made sure that we always started exactly on time. Second, we made a rule that forbade latecomers from joining onto the floor automatically. Once practice started they could only come out to the floor at predetermined intervals (mainly sei-retsu). This rule was also implemented along with another explicit rule which stated that you could not join practice without adequately stretching and warming up.

There were cases of individuals who were habitually late. One particular beginning student who had just gotten into bogu stands out in my memory. The young man started coming to practice habitually late, even after several attempts at gently remind him to be more on time in private. Finally after coming late to several consecutive practices, he came about 15 minutes late (missed warmup and stretching) from the start of a 1:30 hr practice, and then spent 10 minutes very slowly putting on his bogu When I asked him why he was taking so long to put on his bogu and not doing the footwork drills along with everyone else, he replied quite honestly "I don't need to do footwork drills". Mind you, he was an unranked beginner, freshly in bogu (about 3 weeks), and everyone else in the dojo was doing footwork drills, including our 5th dan sensei.

I had to correct him in front of the entire club after practice, in front of the entire club and our senseis. I didn't yell at him, but had to systematically go through why his behavior was unacceptable, particularly since he had wanted to test for ikkyu within 4 months of him starting kendo. It was quite a challenging moment to deal with.

In my opinion, there are several different reasons why people come late, and each has to be dealt with on its own terms. At the dojo where I practiced with Charlie, it was well accepted that many members were coming from work, and that lateness was a consequence of our professional lives. On the other hand, at the other dojo I practiced with, lateness (since we started so early on Saturdays) was more a sign of a lack of commitment, a sign of casualness, or the idea that some felt "superior" to everyone else and didn't "need" the early part of practice, or were only interested in gigeiko.

In this situation, I made it clear that our senseis were volunteers, and that if they felt that a student was being casual, they would simply stop teaching that particular person, for there was no reason for our senseis to teach at all, except for the joy of doing kendo.

So although there was no "punishment", and certainly no physical component, more than one person in our club did feel that if we as a group were too casual, we would lose access to our senseis, and that they would simply stop coming. So in some sense, I suppose there was strong peer pressure.

[Toshiro Mifune]

I agree it is largely dependant on your dojo or club. When I was in college and after I graduated from school we enforced it for my college club. Not really as a punishment and people who had valid excuses were not "punished" It is more a courtesy to everyone and teach college students responsibility. Most of the time they are able to plan so they can leave early enough. As a result most people when they knew they were going to be late called or emailed and when they arrived didn't waste time to join the practice. When you add family, work, etc it gets more complicated. Nobody really saw it as a punishment and rarely did people come without a valid excuse. We insituted it more as a mechnism to change people's attitude about arriving late.

[Fuzzy]

Seeing as this is in the concepts section I'm gonna have to disagree with alot of the views.
Firstly a question "what does someone turning up late have to do with YOUR kendo?"
If you are there to practice kendo and your sensei is there then that is where your mind should be, not on what anyone else is doing.
If someone is late then they dont benefit from the extra time, if someone doesnt try hard they dont benefit from improving their kendo, if someone doesnt turn up to every practice then they dont benefit from being ready to improve their grade.
I had the pleasure of visiting my Senseis dojo in Japan. My sensei explained that the session had no beginning or end, people arrived, practiced their kendo with the senseis and left, some arrived late, some left early. This is a due to lifestyle etc.

When I turn up to train I am ready early because I want to be. I try my very hardest with every ounce of energy I have in my body because I want to. I go to every possible session I can because I want to. And when I train I do not cloud my mind with what others are doing, I am there for my kendo.

Fuzzy

[ReKru]

(it's kendo, not army! :rambo: )


In the army, one commits the mistake and everyone gets the "reward". :D
(actually the whole group waiting in seiza until the last one has finished putting on bogu has improved the overall speed til readyness)

Since one can't practice alone, I guess sticking to whatever rules the group or the sensei has established is the sensible thing to do.
If there's no fixed practice time, one cannot be late.
If there is (depending on the facilities - we have 1.5hrs sharp and need to fit a lot of practice in there, so *any* kind of disruption is detrimental), one shouldn't be late.

[enkorat]

SFirstly a question "what does someone turning up late have to do with YOUR kendo?"

Ah, true. But as either the organizer or the instructor or the sensei, our practice cannot be so self-centered anymore, can it?

It is true, when not in charge, I can focus entirely on my own kendo and my own training and my own needs. Unfortunately I find those opportunities and chances to be decreasing a little more each day. I miss those days....

[Halcyon]

And when I train I do not cloud my mind with what others are doing, I am there for my kendo.
Enjoy this stage of your kendo when you can, because the higher your rank, the more responsibility you will have. The longer you do kendo, the more you will realize there is a strong communal ethos in a dojo. It's not just about improving oneself. You also have to be mindful of the group as a whole. It's reflected in everything from bowing together at the beginning of keiko, waiting for the last person to put on their men before beginning, synchronizing sonkyo with your opponent, etc. When you are the sempai, then you also have to be mindful of adjusting your keiko so that both you and your kohai will get the most out of it. It does neither of you any good if the sempai just goes out and demolishes the kohai. So, what does coming late to practice have to do with kendo? Nothing -- or everything. It depends.

[DCPan]

Firstly a question "what does someone turning up late have to do with YOUR kendo?"

That would depend on the way the practice is ran really. If the practice is "buffet style" where people just warm up on their own and jump into straight motodachi keiko, then probably not much.

But if the practice is actually "structured", then people showing up late disrupt the flow and the intensity of the practice, and frankly, bring the level of intensity down as you "absorb" the late comer into the flow.

It irritates me to no end in power vinyasa yoga when people would show up late and the instructor would ask folks to move their mat to make room for the late comers. It disrupts the "saucha".

I'm a fan of Bikram Yoga now because they lock the doors when practice starts....

YMMV.

[Kendoka!]

Yes Nikozamo, I have often thought of this myself. If someone is late because of some trivial reason ( being lazy,slow, talking too much ... ) then he should receive some sort of small 'punishment'. Don't misunderstand, it's not all that serious but through these little punishments the sensei is usually trying to teach him to be neat,mindful and responsible. Kendo is something that need devotion, a strong will. If someone can't bother arriving on time for some stupid reason then he shouldn't be practicing Kendo. I'm not being strict or anything but I believe proper Kendo can be grown only if one has a certain amount of self-discipline. If you have some other 'real' reason to be late you should tell your sensei when and why you will be late, I am sure he will understand and appreciate your initiative and responsibility.

[Fuzzy]

This is where i see the contradiction. When you use phrases like "self-discipline" and then say that when someone is late they are to be punished, this is hardly self-discipline.
Allowing someone to join the practice at what ever stage (ji geiko,uchikomi geiko,kakari geiko) you are at by just lining up is surely less disruptive that having that person perform some kind of "batsu" to then be allowed to join in.
And what is everyone else doing whilst this is happening?
I would find it difficult to believe that the other kendoka are not thinking at some point "Oh gosh, id better make sure im not late because I dont want to be treated like that" . So suddenly the punishment is causing more of a problem than the person being late would have caused if they had been allowed to join in.

Fuzzy

[emitbrownne]

lol, you totally don't get it.
nope.. I dont.. that why I practice.
:D

[ShinKenshi]

This is where i see the contradiction. When you use phrases like "self-discipline" and then say that when someone is late they are to be punished, this is hardly self-discipline.The self discipline for this comes in when it is expected that late arrivals know immediately to wait to be invited by their sensei to join the rest of practice. A member of my dojo would sometimes arrive late and he would always wait at the side until our sensei invited him on to the floor.


Allowing someone to join the practice at what ever stage (ji geiko,uchikomi geiko,kakari geiko) you are at by just lining up is surely less disruptive that having that person perform some kind of "batsu" to then be allowed to join in.
And what is everyone else doing whilst this is happening?It is actually very distracting, especially if this individual is habitually late with no acceptable reason. If you are the one arriving late and just trot out onto the floor and start getting ready with the idea that you can just join the rotation, it shows you don't care and/or respect your sensei's commitment to teach you. That being said, some dojo are different in this regard as others have said so I do concede that it could very well be a case by case situation, but bottom line is, at least for me, making your way onto the practice floor and just jumping right in flies in the face of the strong group-focused dynamic that is inherent to kendo.


I would find it difficult to believe that the other kendoka are not thinking at some point "Oh gosh, id better make sure im not late because I dont want to be treated like that" . So suddenly the punishment is causing more of a problem than the person being late would have caused if they had been allowed to join in.

FuzzyI don't see how people can view being asked to wait to be invited to join practice after arriving late is a punishment. It's showing respect to your dojo and sensei by showing you realize that you have arrived late and that you don't want to disrupt the ongoing flow of things. Now, if you are part of a dojo that doesn't particularly care about that, then do what you all do. If that isn't the case, then you should carefully consider which is the preferable action: jump right in and go at your own pace, or wait for your sensei to invite you to join the rest of practice and seamlessly join the rest of the group.

[ReKru]

This is where i see the contradiction. When you use phrases like "self-discipline" and then say that when someone is late they are to be punished, this is hardly self-discipline.
...
I would find it difficult to believe that the other kendoka are not thinking at some point "Oh gosh, id better make sure im not late because I dont want to be treated like that" .


Where's the contradiction?
If it works like that, it's working as intended, isn't it?

You probably misunderstand the intention, which is not to punish people, but to help improve things like their self discipline.

[DCPan]

This is where i see the contradiction. When you use phrases like "self-discipline" and then say that when someone is late they are to be punished, this is hardly self-discipline.

Oh, I agree that extra punishment is silly. Missing out on whatever you didn't get to do because you're late is punishment enough in my opinion, if you care about kendo. And if it is someone who doesn't care, the punishment still doesn't make any difference.


Allowing someone to join the practice at what ever stage (ji geiko,uchikomi geiko,kakari geiko) you are at by just lining up is surely less disruptive that having that person perform some kind of "batsu" to then be allowed to join in.


I think this is where there might be some misunderstanding as to what the "batsu" does.

If the "goal" is to be less disruptive, think about this. The late comer is NOT warm. Everyone else is. What is the fastest way to get them warm? Haya-suburi.

So, just maybe, what is viewed as "punishment" was the instructor's view of how to get you up to speed so you don't lower the intensity of practice for everyone else because you're not warm?

I can't guess to the intent of what the instructor wanted with the "batsu" stuff...but you CAN choose to view it as punishment or "special" training.

YMMV.

[enkorat]

Again, I do think it depends on the kinds of students you have. If its children, and they're largely dependent on their parents to get to the dojo, it hardly seems fair to single them out for a particular "punishment". On the other hand, if you're dealing with habitually late college students who are very self-centered, and your club is run by volunteers, then I think that's a different situation.

Perhaps I can sort of give an example. At one of my clubs that I practiced at, early on I was the student president of the organization. I arrived when the building opened a half hour before practice started, cleaned the dance room of trash, swept the floor, moved bits of furniture and exercise mats, got sign-in sheets ready, liability waivers stacked, then dressed, got my bogu on, and prepped my extra shinai for any first time beginners that would show up. Usually I was alone when I did this. I could get this done in about 15-20 minutes, so by the time the rest of the members showed up, they'd come in rather casually and think that the room was "always like that", because it was something I did for 2 years, every week without saying anything. It got to the point that one of the instructors suggested that we start practice 15 min early, because he didn't realize that there was prep work involved, and I had to essentially tell him that every week, the pristine room where we practiced was in fact, only pristine because someone was making it pristine.

After about two years of doing this every week, I had to talk to the rest of our members, because our club was getting bigger and I also needed to be greeting new interested beginners, make sure any guest instructors got through the security gate at the front of the building, and other stuff. I imagine I was pretty exasperated at that point, and maybe feeling a bit sore because I felt that maybe people were taking me (and the behind the scenes work) for granted.

After this, err, "talk", a lot more of our regular student members began to see our practice as a shared responsibility, so more and more people came a little earlier to the dojo early to help out and to get things ready for practice. With more people to help out it went by a lot faster, things went a lot more smoothly, and importantly, more people began to see what actually needed to be done to ensure practice happened every week.

So later on, when the majority of members understood what it took to get practice up and running off the ground, people who were habitually late or didn't help out in some way started to be seen as either lacking in discipline, or lacking in commitment, or not taking on their fair share of legwork to get practice up and running, and either "cheating", undependable, or flat-out selfish.

So we didn't punish people, but there was significant social pressure at times I think....

I do think that at a college dojo this is a very important thing to learn. I think during the transition from adolescence to adulthood that happens in undergraduate years, a good dojo is a good place to learn about things like "team effort".

I still practice in a non-profit volunteer dojo, and I am continuously impressed by how much effort it takes to run a volunteer dojo smoothly. The ship might appear to be sailing smoothly along but there is always some frantic behind the scenes troubleshooting, last minute phone calls, very long and sometimes heated emails. And in this dojo a lot of the beginners are involved at an earlier stage, so I think they think the least they can do is show up on time. But again, a lot of the members in my new dojo are working adults, and they tend to be a little more focused than college undergraduates.

[Fuzzy]

Where's the contradiction?
If it works like that, it's working as intended, isn't it?

You probably misunderstand the intention, which is not to punish people, but to help improve things like their self discipline.

I completely understand the intention.
Some people have no SELF-control and lack SELF-discipline and maybe has a low SELF-image due to a low SELF-esteem , maybe they feel SELF-concious and lack a bit of SELF-confidence . And perhaps they are SELF-employed and need to do some SELF-assessment and SELF-diagnosis or maybe just go on a SELF-catering holiday and sign up to some SELF-help courses.

If someone tells someone else to do something then its not SELF anything.

I agree with the comments regarding getting someone as warmed up as everyone else.

Fuzzy

[Kendoka!]

[QUOTE=DCPan;439175

I think this is where there might be some misunderstanding as to what the "batsu" does.

If the "goal" is to be less disruptive, think about this. The late comer is NOT warm. Everyone else is. What is the fastest way to get them warm? Haya-suburi.

So, just maybe, what is viewed as "punishment" was the instructor's view of how to get you up to speed so you don't lower the intensity of practice for everyone else because you're not warm?

I can't guess to the intent of what the instructor wanted with the "batsu" stuff...but you CAN choose to view it as punishment or "special" training.

YMMV.[/QUOTE]

I agree. What you have missed by being late is a punishment for itself.
I never looked at the "batsu" in that way :D I think you are 100% spot on there

[ReKru]

If someone tells someone else to do something then its not SELF anything.

The person told still has to do something himSELF.
If the impulse comes from inside or outside is only a question of time. As the old cowboy verb goes: you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.

(If I motivate myself to go to practice at 25 celsius and perfect beergarden weather, it's also borderline schizophrenic :D )

[Fuzzy]

The person told still has to do something himSELF.
If the impulse comes from inside or outside is only a question of time. As the old cowboy verb goes: you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.

My point exactly, and its obviously him/her-SELF :)

You can lead me down to the water, you can let the shiny,clean,refreshing liquid run through your fingers, you can show me research explaining the advantages of regular water intake, you can beat me with a stick and try and get me to drink, but if i dont want to drink because I'm not thirsty then you have wasted your time not mine. Being late or being late is human nature.

As the old goat herder saying goes : Deal with the faults of others as gently as with your own.

[ReKru]

As the old goat herder saying goes : Deal with the faults of others as gently as with your own.

If I'd expect as much of the others as of myself, it'd be 500 Haya suburi. :D
Without being asked and while being 20 minutes early. :p

(look at Enokrat's posts - they explain pretty well the overall effort it takes to make a club run smoothly - being on time is not enough overall, it's the least thing one can contribute)

[Fuzzy]

If I'd expect as much of the others as of myself, it'd be 500 Haya suburi. :D
Without being asked and while being 20 minutes early. :p

Has this tendency toward self-abuse been developed as a result of being late too many times and being punished thus making you strive towards bettering yourself by setting a good example?

[ReKru]

Does that matter?

(also, as I sidenote, you seem to use the words "punishment" and now "abuse" excessively, which gives a very negative touch to any form of learning or any sort of outside impulse, which you seem to dislike, but is not the true concept of learning or self improvement)

[Fuzzy]

Not to me. I am always early and always eager in life and in kendo.
On the negative side I do enjoy a good argument :)

[ReKru]

I enjoy a smoothly running club and practice sessions that make the best use of the limited floor time for all people. :D

[Fuzzy]

and here endeth the lesson :)

Danke mein freund

Fuzzy

[Fuzzy]

Does that matter?

(also, as I sidenote, you seem to use the words "punishment" and now "abuse" excessively, which gives a very negative touch to any form of learning or any sort of outside impulse, which you seem to dislike, but is not the true concept of learning or self improvement)

I have seen this first hand taken to a level where it becomes bullying, this I cannot stand for and will fight tooth and nail for the rights of those who maybe havent the confidence or word power to stand up for themselves.

It is not in my nature to be that sort of person, but it is in my nature to confront it.

[ReKru]

That's probably the inherent risk of all peer pressure or teacher-student relationship. A thin line.
(don't know if you've seen "Ken - the Sword", but I find that kind of disturbing and self-abusive. Wouldn't want to go there. On the other hand, I do find those "deshi" articles on kenshi247.net rather inspiring - even though serving tea to sensei does seem odd for my western mind)

[Fuzzy]

Indeed, Im completely ok with the "teachers love for his student" and "students love for his teacher" and the relationship being stronger than the teaching method. The example I saw was when someone in a high position did this to someone who wasnt his student but took this way to far to be considered appropriate.
Yes it touches a nerve with me and much to my GF's annoyance my mouth gets involved maybe before my brain has chance to catch up with it.
But it is always for the right reasons.

[DCPan]

I have seen this first hand taken to a level where it becomes bullying,

Did you see the article on Yoshimoto Trent sensei in the KW mag?

[enkorat]

I completely understand the intention.
Some people have no SELF-control and lack SELF-discipline and maybe has a low SELF-image due to a low SELF-esteem , maybe they feel SELF-concious and lack a bit of SELF-confidence . And perhaps they are SELF-employed and need to do some SELF-assessment and SELF-diagnosis or maybe just go on a SELF-catering holiday and sign up to some SELF-help courses.

If someone tells someone else to do something then its not SELF anything.

I agree with the comments regarding getting someone as warmed up as everyone else.

Fuzzy

In general though, a beginner starts in a position of relative ignorance, and doesn't know the social norms of a kendo practice. In that situation it is the responsibility of the instructor to instill what is "appropriate" and "inappropriate" behavior, or at least define the limits of behavior. Giving a beginner with no knowledge of "good kendo" versus "bad kendo" complete freedom and no correction will only lead to problems. How a correction is applied and implemented is largely dependent on the sensei's own training history (how they were taught themselves) and the context (ie. the kind of student).

Secondly, although some people choose to focus on the "SELF" portion of kendo training, as clearly you do, kendo practice is not defined as a solitary activity. While there are certainly things you can do to practice alone, kendo needs a partner. When you involve a second person in anything, it becomes a relationship, and a relationship defined purely by "SELF" interests will eventually fail.

At the core of kendo is two opposing forces. You learn through kendo to struggle for control over a situation (gaining an ippon) against an opponent. In some senses, this element of kendo is rather selfish, you tend to think about yourself and what you need, what you want, what you should do. But importantly, when you practice with a second person, you are also practicing with a partner within the context of a relationship. To continue practicing kendo, you need to foster that relationship or you lose the opportunity to practice, which for most is a recreational activity. If you take advantage of your partner, or think only of yourself and your needs, your partner will eventually find better things to do.

So much of the self-discipline and self-control of kendo is in part controlling your own desires and your own wants, at least to bring into consideration the needs of your practice partner. This becomes important because for certain periods of time, particularly when you're fighting, you minimize this consideration. So other times when you're not directly fighting, public shows of due consideration (i.e. reiho) towards your partner are really important to keep that relationship balanced.

It shouldn't matter if there is one other person your practicing with, or 40, the principle of fostering a relationship and giving due consideration towards your practice partner and members of your dojo should remain the same.

[Fuzzy]

I'm having difficulty understanding why I seem to be getting lectured as to why we do kendo and the importance of connecting with others.

I refer to the original start of the thread :


now in my dojo the senpai are trying to start the kendo training at the correct time... and some people arrives late... different reasons... work, study, traffic, etc. and they are doing this: classificate pleople... the ones that ''really'' can't arrive early because of work or study and the people that arrives later for any other reason. with the second part of people they are doing some ''kendo-punishments''... like doing 200 hayasuburi meanwhile the rest are doing keiko. we are clear that it's not really a punishment... but it's a little shameful and like i'd say in other thread our dojo it's recreative/formative. (it's kendo, not army! :rambo: )

no one wants to arrive later, but happens!

i will be honest... with this kind of rules sometimes is difficult to enjoy the training...

I have clarified that I have seen punishments taken to the point of bullying and I care not how you flower it up or attempt to justify it with the whole "We are trying to make them understand the importance of X by making them do Y".

We do kendo because we want to, and when I see someone state "with this kind of rules sometimes is difficult to enjoy the training" I am left feeling that someone who has made the effort to turn up whether late or not is now left feeling that the effort they made is not good enough.

I wonder how long this person would continue turning up.

Fuzzy

[ReKru]

Kendo is tedious, frustrating and sometimes boring.
If someone discovers that early on and doesn't turn up, I don't see that as a loss. (neither for the person, nor for Kendo)

Also, you've now taken it from 200 Haya suburi (which is a joke for any healthy person) to bullying, which is a completely different thing.

[Fuzzy]

I have 3 words for ya'll - Full Metal Jacket

"This is by bokuto, there are many like it but this one is mine......."

In the words of Jack Nicholson as a particularly dodgy US president in Mars Attacks.. "Why can't we all just get along?"

Peace

Fuzzy

[enkorat]

I'm having difficulty understanding why I seem to be getting lectured as to why we do kendo and the importance of connecting with others.

I refer to the original start of the thread :



I have clarified that I have seen punishments taken to the point of bullying and I care not how you flower it up or attempt to justify it with the whole "We are trying to make them understand the importance of X by making them do Y".

We do kendo because we want to, and when I see someone state "with this kind of rules sometimes is difficult to enjoy the training" I am left feeling that someone who has made the effort to turn up whether late or not is now left feeling that the effort they made is not good enough.

I wonder how long this person would continue turning up.

Fuzzy

Once a friend of mine (senior to me) and I decided to visit a dojo of a 8th dan. We left early and made sure that we had enough time to get there, but while on the freeway driving there we hit serious construction traffic. On my GPS we saw the time slip away and the ETA gradually creep towards the time practice started. Eventually, we realized we'd be late and after much deliberation in the car, we both decided it would be improper to show up late, and reflect poorly on our own dojo and our sensei.

Secondly, let me ask you this then. Have you ever had a practice, a test, or tournament where you've realized that your effort, no matter what you did, was just not good enough? There have been many many times that I have felt that my effort, no matter how much I try, was just not good enough. I've either had a senseis, judges on panels, directly tell me so, or I've lost. In fact, I felt that last week... But yesterday after practiced I glanced at the dojo's attendance sheet, and I saw my name written on almost every practice.

So... I've kept showing up for years?

Maybe its a cultural thing, and I don't really notice. After all, when I was growing up, my father told me one in my life (when I was in my early 20s) that he was proud of me. He prefaced this statement by a long explanation as to why such things were just not said outloud.

But I also agree with ReKu, teaching appropriate behavior versus bullying is a different thing.

My impression of your position Fuzzy, was that any correction of behavior was out of line because such strategies were ineffective at changing people's underlying motives, that you believe that each person practices purely for their own self-interested benefit (ie SELF), and that correction would impact a person's desire to do kendo. I agree with your position that if the correction was inappropriate, or overly harsh it would be inappropriate, but I've also seen situations where students were given no correction at all for a year, because it was felt that any correction would be "discouragement". Not such a great situation either.

My own view is that if I am teaching kendo, it is my duty first to teach "proper" kendo. If that course of instruction is too rigorous, tedious, boring, or simply not what a student is looking for, then it is well within their rights to stop coming. If I am instructing I should make reasonable accommodations based on the student's age, health, or gender, but I feel that I cannot change the core of kendo teaching to the point of corrupting the core values of kendo purely because I'm afraid of "discouraging" someone.

After all, Kendo training is a lifetime of discouragement, its only facing it and overcoming it on a nearly daily basis that makes us stronger.

[Fuzzy]

Enkorat thanks for a very interesting reply.

I think I was trying to show the difference in my mind between what happens in the dojo and what happens as a result of external factors but are then enforced in the dojo.

I know I kept on and on about the whole "self" thing, but ironically I wasnt talking about myself.

I had a military father and have never received any words of encouragement in pretty much anything ive done in my life. Maybe this has affected me more than I am aware :)

Maybe kendo is in place of theropy. Yay!! a break through

Fuzzy

[DigitalDowntown]

You have practices starting at 6:55am? That's awesome. In all of Southern California I'm not aware of a single early morning practice (and for work/family reasons, I wish one existed so I could got 2x or 3x a week instead of my usual once).

Industry Sheriff's has an 8:30a open practice most Sunday mornings out in the Pomona area at the University of La Verne. They update their website regularly to reflect the Sunday schedule.

I think Chuo II (Simi Valley) also has a morning practice on Saturdays, I've heard their Saturday practice IS your morning as it's 3 hours long!

[rfoxmich]

I've been lurking in this thread for quite a while...a lot of interesting discussion, but it seems like a large point has been missed:
Wow, the opportunity to do 200 haya suburi? Cool.. maybe I should arrive late more often! Haya suburi properly done will probably improve your kendo much more than the same amount of time spent doing jigeiko.

On the general subject of actions to take when students arrive late. Well I have the problem that some of the kenshi in my dojo that show the strongest shinai kendo (note that I didn't say the best kenshi), are in the category of the people that arrive late to practice for 'other reasons'...that is not such good reasons. When I noticed that they tended to plan to arrive to miss some of bits of practice they didn't like I started to re-arrange things a bit so they couldn't predict when the 'good bits' were. For example.. I know they love jigeiko and hate kata. We had one practice where we did a hard, brief bit of shinai practice (30-45min) and as soon as the latecomes arrived (thinking they'd missed the 'boring bits') I called Yame and proceeded to spend the rest of the time on kata.

Where does this fit into my previous point (in case you've forgotten 200 haya suburi is good practice and you should welcome the opportunity rather than treat it as a 'kendo punishment'). All parts of kendo practice are important and useful, suburi, conditioning, ashi-sabaki, kihon uchi, kiri-kaeshi, uchikomi/kakari-gekio, jigeiko kata. None of it should e viewed as punishment. It's all opportunity, and the difference is in _your_ mind not in the mind of the people planning practice. Welcome it all regardless of the motivation behind its assignment.


now in my dojo the senpai are trying to start the kendo training at the correct time... and some people arrives late... different reasons... work, study, traffic, etc. and they are doing this: classificate pleople... the ones that ''really'' can't arrive early because of work or study and the people that arrives later for any other reason. with the second part of people they are doing some ''kendo-punishments''... like doing 200 hayasuburi meanwhile the rest are doing keiko. we are clear that it's not really a punishment... but it's a little shameful and like i'd say in other thread our dojo it's recreative/formative. (it's kendo, not army! :rambo: )

no one wants to arrive later, but happens!

i will be honest... with this kind of rules sometimes is difficult to enjoy the training...

[Anorymous]

Haya suburi properly done will probably improve your kendo much more than the same amount of time spent doing jigeiko.

How "properly" are we talking about here? "Properly" as in "keep 2-3 basic things in mind" or as in "have a teacher near-by to correct you"?

After all those years, I'm still not sure if I can call my suburi "proper" or not... hence I'm asking.

[turboyoshi]

It's all opportunity, and the difference is in _your_ mind not in the mind of the people planning practice. Welcome it all regardless of the motivation behind its assignment.

Attitude really is key. I know that for myself, I used to hate hayasuburi and in fact hate cardio conditioning routines as they tend to bore me too much. Lately, when ever the sensei call for hayasuburi, I've been telling myself "this is an opportunity to fix a major weakness, use it" and that has helped me work through it better. Nowadays, I've stopped hating it and even added it to my home training. I still wouldn't say hayasuburi is fun or anything like that, but it's a useful, actually necessary, part of my training if I want to get better.