Why are we limited to the type of strikes and forms in Kendo?

[BAMBINOMONTANA]

I was wondering why are we limited to the type of strikes and forms in Kendo? I think that it may be out of fairness and to set an equal playing field. I see all these other Kenjutsu like Kuroda's and Katori Shinto's sword form and wonder why they aren't incorporated into kendo as well?

[ender84567]

use the search

[BAMBINOMONTANA]

use the search

I found a thread (Kendo and Sword Skill) that touch on the subject, it didn't seem to give any factual definitions or discuss the advantages of learning the other sword forms and applying it to kendo.

Thanks,
Bam

[ender84567]

again, use the search, this has been rehashed at least 3 times this year already, and countless times in the past.

[BAMBINOMONTANA]

again, use the search, this has been rehashed at least 3 times this year already, and countless times in the past.

Would you happen to know the name of the thread?

[hl1978]

Simple answer, shinai and bogu design.

As for wether or not its a good idea, the previous threads have plenty of discussion pro/against.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Try searching for "target".

[verissimus]

This (http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/10379-Hitting-zones-(Men-Kote-Do-Tsuki)?referrerid=6873), for example.

[jjcruiser]

Can't he pick up the other thread here? For example, from V's link, this was my favorite explanation:


I think they are the best way of trying to maintain some semblence of old waza without risking our health in the process. Think of a diagonal cut to the neck... I've seen diagrams of this from old sword schools (well, online copies of documents) but that wouldn't be too safe to do now would it? It doesn't matter how good the armor is, a dead or paralized kendoka can't practice anymore, right? So I think the goal is to maintain ties to old sword arts, but keep it at a high level of safety so we can keep practicing. Remember, the aim of kendo is not perfect emulation of old sword arts anyway, but to improve our spirit so it is okay if we deviate a bit from perfect copies of old techniques as long as the overall concept is still there.

My question to the questioners of why we use the targets we use is this:

Where else would you make a target, why, and how would you adequately protect it?

[BAMBINOMONTANA]

Thanks.

[nikozamo]

you want more targets? do some isshu-jiai with naginata and jyukendo (and so on...) people :D

[ben]

Already I think Naginata is more dangerous than kendo because of the legs as a target. Dangerous in the sense of risk of debilitating injury. A slightly high and over-enthusiastic sune (keeping in mind it doesn't take much to put a lot of momentum behind the naginata) and there goes your knee.

Kendo has its dangers but it's still less injurious than any code of football I can think of.

Most of what happens in kendo happens at the crossing of the swords anyway. The actual target is less important.

b

[Anorymous]

Can't he pick up the other thread here? For example, from V's link, this was my favorite explanation:



My question to the questioners of why we use the targets we use is this:

Where else would you make a target, why, and how would you adequately protect it?

Uhm... isn't the neck already protected? Isn't that exactly the reason that the men-buton extends that far towards one's shoulders?

Actually, I was once wondering what purpose would be served by all the seemingly "extra" parts that bougu come with... it came to me with time, however.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Most of what happens in kendo happens at the crossing of the swords anyway. The actual target is less important.This. The people arguing for including more "realism" or broader targets or what have you typically don't understand kendo. If that's your bag, I suggest you look into HEMA (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hema+sword).

[jjcruiser]

This. The people arguing for including more "realism" or broader targets or what have you typically don't understand kendo. If that's your bag, I suggest you look into HEMA (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hema+sword).

I had a sempai tell me once that 90% of kendo is about the six inches in the center. That stuck with me.

[Welshy]

I always assumed it a was a matter of efficiency. Why bother cutting someone's neck, when the top of the head is higher up (and thus a shorter distance for your shinai to travel on the downswing)? Kote is logical, since it is the closest body part you can cut when they're in chudan. Once the arms are raised, the soft squishy bit under the ribs would be an easy target. As for tsuki, you stab the throat because the tip of your shinai doesn't have to travel as far as it would if you were aiming for an eyeball, and you usually can't stab the chest because ribs/arms get in the way when you're in chudan.

So from my point of view, the reason those are the only allowed targets are because they are the "best" targets - hence there's no point aiming for anything else. It's different when doing isshu-jiai because with a naginata you could just as easily hit the shins as the head from chudan. In that case, I'm guessing cutting through the thigh would be more difficult than the shin, which is why it's not a target?

[stealth_monkey]

Why bother cutting someone's neck, when the top of the head is higher up

Because you need to cut through the skull in the latter case, which is difficult


As for tsuki, you stab the throat because the tip of your shinai doesn't have to travel as far as it would if you were aiming for an eyeball, and you usually can't stab the chest because ribs/arms get in the way when you're in chudan.
It would be easier to stab under the chin, basically where the mengane starts. Also, mune-tsuki, as far as I'm aware, was previously a valid striking area in kendo. It was removed in order to allow jodan to compete more effectively.

The reason we strike the targets we do is two-fold, as far as I'm aware. Firstly, there are sporting aspects to kendo and so we need to keep the targets "balanced" in that they are easy to spot a missed strike, and are possible to hit. Secondly, the targets we strike are ironically the easiest places on the human body to protect with armor. That doesn't make a lot of sense if you're looking at kendo in a martial aspect, but plenty of sense if we're caring about our partners. I've read somewhere (can't remember where, so take it with a grain of salt) that bogu was roundly criticised by the samurai of the day when it was invented because it promotes unrealistic striking

[stealth_monkey]

Sorry, for some reason the thread popped up as a single post rather than a 2 page thread. Yes, use the search :(

[b8amack]

Because you need to cut through the skull in the latter case, which is difficult


It would be easier to stab under the chin, basically where the mengane starts. Also, mune-tsuki, as far as I'm aware, was previously a valid striking area in kendo. It was removed in order to allow jodan to compete more effectively.

The reason we strike the targets we do is two-fold, as far as I'm aware. Firstly, there are sporting aspects to kendo and so we need to keep the targets "balanced" in that they are easy to spot a missed strike, and are possible to hit. Secondly, the targets we strike are ironically the easiest places on the human body to protect with armor. That doesn't make a lot of sense if you're looking at kendo in a martial aspect, but plenty of sense if we're caring about our partners. I've read somewhere (can't remember where, so take it with a grain of salt) that bogu was roundly criticised by the samurai of the day when it was invented because it promotes unrealistic striking

AFAIK, munezuki was added to make jodan and nito more difficult, and was removed because it worked a little too well. I don't think it was ever a valid target against chudan, which is to say standard kendo. Anyway, I don't know why armour always comes into these discussions. Kendo is a duelling art, not a battlefield art. Some of the guys like Josh who know more about this stuff than I ever will might shoot me down, but although no doubt an influence, I don't think bogu was ever supposed to be representative of the yoroi. Bogu was added to make the practice of kendo safer.

[Aden]

For ease of comprehension (regardless of any connection to reality), we tell students who ask why the different targeting between our arts in the dojo that effectively kendo is unarmoured combat practice with the targets armoured for protection, while a lot of our kenjutsu involves techniques for use against armour (like trying to burrow the kissaki into the armpit, going after the veins on the inside of the wrist, cutting for the ankle or attacking the femoral artery) that are practiced normally unarmoured.....

[The great I AM]

I had a sempai tell me once that 90% of kendo is about the six inches in the center. That stuck with me.I keep trying to tell the wife the same thing, but that's nothing to do with kendo...

[Charlie]

Already I think Naginata is more dangerous than kendo because of the legs as a target. Dangerous in the sense of risk of debilitating injury. A slightly high and over-enthusiastic sune (keeping in mind it doesn't take much to put a lot of momentum behind the naginata) and there goes your knee.

Kendo has its dangers but it's still less injurious than any code of football I can think of.

Most of what happens in kendo happens at the crossing of the swords anyway. The actual target is less important.

b

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to ben again."

[Charlie]

So, I know this is probably already covered in other threads but if y'all and the OP don't mind my throwing in a couple yen, my estimation is:

Kendo was never supposed to be the sum total of sword practice, but something that was supposed to coexist with kata and the other aspects of whatever ryu you practiced. In other words, it was invented so swordsmen of various ryu could practice full contact sparring. Whenever you introduce sparring in any art, you have to impose rules and protection. You can't do, in sparring, everything you train to do in your art. Rather, it allows you to do only a few things at full speed and contact. But the value of that is what you can imagine, develops the reflexes, courage, realtime instincts, etc.

Over time, the kata and other aspects of classical kenjutsu and bujutsu fell away and kendo became it's own thing. As for why only four target areas, why these, probably a lot of good conjecture in this and other threads. If you can cut men you can cut neck or shoulder, that kind of thing.

If you think about it, all arts that involve sparring have to set some limits and rules and those rules can be manipulated for competitive advantage. Kung fu practitioners, for example, can't practice in real time sparring any moves where they lock up someone's knee and try to break it. Instead, they can only participate in san shou, a type of kickboxing developed for kung fu practitioners to spar.

Kendo, same thing. Just my opinion and sorry for any redundancy!

[voidsamurai]

The Answer maybe here ? 1:25 to 3:00 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mMsuC9IRwE)

[IronWarrior]

Charlie is correct, when I read about Kendo and have been taught by my Sensei the reason we have the few attack area's is because if you can cut these area's well, then you should have the skill to attack and cut any other part of the body.

Don't understand the confusing about this, I believe Kendo is taught the same all around the world.

[hl1978]

Charlie is correct, when I read about Kendo and have been taught by my Sensei the reason we have the few attack area's is because if you can cut these area's well, then you should have the skill to attack and cut any other part of the body.


I can understand the logic behind your coment and understand controlling center,but given that there are so many diagnal cuts, "inside" cuts etc I am curious to know what it would be like to try those cuts. There are all sorts of waza which utilize different body postures and angles which don't really look like kendo styled cuts. Of course if you can cut men, you can probably cut the neck, but what if I want to try a kesagiri style cut, you don't exactly stay on the center line like you would in kendo.

[Charlie]

I can understand the logic behind your coment and understand controlling center,but given that there are so many diagnal cuts, "inside" cuts etc I am curious to know what it would be like to try those cuts. There are all sorts of waza which utilize different body postures and angles which don't really look like kendo styled cuts. Of course if you can cut men, you can probably cut the neck, but what if I want to try a kesagiri style cut, you don't exactly stay on the center line like you would in kendo.

There's no way to practice kesagiri in a sparring environment, though, is there? A cut from shoulder to hip?

[hl1978]

There's no way to practice kesagiri in a sparring environment, though, is there? A cut from shoulder to hip?



You have to stop at point of contact, but unlike say a do cut in which your left hand stays online, a kesa cut starts on an angle from down below. It is merely one example of a variety of cuts found in iaido that I would love to try in kendo. It would be interesting to still control the center from those positions. I guess ill just have to get a foam sword that some of the koryu iaido guys have with other groups in our dojo and try it out.

I was thinking more like the hip to shoulder version found in the kata, but yeah, there are tons of angled cuts found in iaido.

[0746]

You have to stop at point of contact, but unlike say a do cut in which your left hand stays online, a kesa cut starts on an angle from down below. It is merely one example of a variety of cuts found in iaido that I would love to try in kendo. It would be interesting to still control the center from those positions. I guess ill just have to get a foam sword that some of the koryu iaido guys have with other groups in our dojo and try it out.

I was thinking more like the hip to shoulder version found in the kata, but yeah, there are tons of angled cuts found in iaido.
Your left hand doesn't have to stay on line. Thats not a requirement of scoring a do cut. For a do cut, shinpan looks at yoko datotsu and the angle of the cut (hatsuji?). Even if your left arm is over your shoulder, you should still be able to score a cut. Unless your opponent has center in which case no cuts should score anyway.

that aside, i think you are missing the point here. if you have to do a kaesagiri, why not do a men or a do cut instead. Kendo has more than enough target areas for its purpose.

[hl1978]

Your left hand doesn't have to stay on line. Thats not a requirement of scoring a do cut. For a do cut, shinpan looks at yoko datotsu and the angle of the cut (hatsuji?). Even if your left arm is over your shoulder, you should still be able to score a cut. Unless your opponent has center in which case no cuts should score anyway.

that aside, i think you are missing the point here. if you have to do a kaesagiri, why not do a men or a do cut instead. Kendo has more than enough target areas for its purpose.

I don't only do kendo :D
I also practice and teach iaido, thereofore cuts in iaido are of interest to me. There are plenty of reasons why you might want to preform an upwards cut like the one found in setei #5 which would require a different mechanic than a do cut (the alternate kamae in kendo might make a bit more sense as well as cut to the legs etc). To preform a kesagiri style movement requires that the sword

Since kendo is very linear and doesn't use much of a torquing motion accross the horizontal, kendo doesn't readily reward taking the left hand off the center line. Afterall, kendo rewards speed, not power. One might find that taking the left hand off the center line makes it more difficult to retake the center line and may lose the center when the left hand comes off line. This does not happen nearly to the same degree if the right hand is off line and the left stays online. One generally has to come back onto the centerline with the left hand in order to make a "proper" cut.

On a sidenote for do, we do tend to see plenty of people with improper left hand orientation when cutting with do, bringing their left hand over to the right side prior to the push through. I assume this is either to compensate for distance or due to too much right hand.

[jjcruiser]

Your left hand doesn't have to stay on line. Thats not a requirement of scoring a do cut.

Please excuse me, but are you sure about that? Perhaps in a fast-paced match you might cut do without your left hand remaining in the center line and get it scored, but I'm not sure that's proper kihon kendo. I have been taught, at least if I understood correctly, not to let your left hand pull to the right of center until after the cut is made and you are going through. Is that not the consensus?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I have been taught, at least if I understood correctly, not to let your left hand pull to the right of center until after the cut is made and you are going through. Is that not the consensus?It's a pretty rare kendoka that keeps the left hand dead centre on doh. Hand position is not one of the requirements for yuko-datotsu.

[jjcruiser]

It's a pretty rare kendoka that keeps the left hand dead centre on doh. Hand position is not one of the requirements for yuko-datotsu.

To be clear, I'm not saying I can do it right. I was wondering if that's how it is taught and supposed to be done.

[Neil Gendzwill]

To be clear, I'm not saying I can do it right. I was wondering if that's how it is taught and supposed to be done.Yes. Ideally, the left hand stays centred. We're just not looking at that when we call the point.

[Charlie]

Interesting points, hl! But you get what I'm saying. You could perform a cut with shinai from wake gamae aimed at your opponent's hip but there's probably no good way to protect the kenshi receiving it - I mean, you could miss the doh easily, and a nice blast to the hip and you're gonna get a good purplish bruise, tare or no tare, eh? The foam sword idea is intriguing if the participants are committed to hasuji and trying to use the sword like a real sword!