Tying Hakama And Obi

[kundalini]

Does anyone know of any good sites that show the right way to tie obi and hakama for Iai? I've only done one lesson of Iai but it is so embarresing to have to get help to dress you. Tying the hakama is so complicated it would probably take me over a month to learn it. But if I had something I could use to practice it at home I could just keep doing it untill I get it right. There was another thread on tying obi on here but I didn't find the sites that much help. Thankyou.

[Richie224]

Navigate through these pages http://kimonoo.net/kituke.html They are in Japanese but if you use babelfish at altavista you can translate them into English, however the pictures are easy to follow.

For obi I recommend this one

http://kimonoo.net/kata1.html

as for the Hakama

http://kimonoo.net/ham-1.html

Have fun!

[kundalini]

Cheers mate. Little bit confusing but i'm sure i'll work them out. Thankies.

[leroy]

yeah im new to and had no idea how to tie the thing, had it back to frount and everything, not a good a good look, http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/hakama/hakama_tying.html

i went to this site and i found after giving it a go a few times it was all good, just need to make sure everything sits flat and you will be flying

[teflon tengu]

Trust me, even after you learn the proper way of tying, it'll take you about a year to learn how tight to tie everything. I was having to retie everything in the middle of class.

[Oroshi]

yeah im new to and had no idea how to tie the thing, had it back to frount and everything, not a good a good look, http://www.aikidofaq.com/bilder/hakama/hakama_tying.html

i went to this site and i found after giving it a go a few times it was all good, just need to make sure everything sits flat and you will be flying
That's not how I do it. In my experience that's not the correct way to wear hakama for iai, although it may be different for different styles.

It's better to ask your sempai how to do it. That way you know you'll be doing it in the right way for your style.



(But anyway... this thread is four years old).

[flounder-san]

interesting...I'm still learning, so I'll practice the methods above!

[Kagerou]

That's not how I do it. In my experience that's not the correct way to wear hakama for iai, although it may be different for different styles.

It's better to ask your sempai how to do it. That way you know you'll be doing it in the right way for your style.



(But anyway... this thread is four years old).

ditto on all of the above....especially the four year thing.

[corwyn]

That's not how I do it. In my experience that's not the correct way to wear hakama for iai, although it may be different for different styles.

It's better to ask your sempai how to do it. That way you know you'll be doing it in the right way for your style.



(But anyway... this thread is four years old).

As far as I know, that's not right for aikido, either, and I studied (briefly) at both of the mainstream styles here in the US.

[imnothere]

i think kendo hakama is slightly simplified.

never the less this is very useful. thankyou for the post!

i am just learning how to wear hakama and will be practicing from the website!:)

[rottunpunk]

That's not how I do it. In my experience that's not the correct way to wear hakama for iai, although it may be different for different styles.

It's better to ask your sempai how to do it. That way you know you'll be doing it in the right way for your style.



(But anyway... this thread is four years old).

thats pretty much how i tye mine actually
thopugh i just let the back drop as opposed to tying it round my chest

i find that as a lady certain lady bits get in the way if i tye it any other way
and this is the way i was first shown

there are many acceptable ways of tying hakama
as long as it looks neat and stays done up whats the problem?
:p

[Peter West]

Here's my method for Hakama (I'm not claiming this is the only way, just that this is how I do it) :
1. step into hakama holding front in both hands (traditionally i was taught step in left foot first but never found out why)
2. pull the long front himo (cords), beginning above the obi, round to the back, cross them without twisting above the obi, bring them to the front, cross them again without twisting, this time below the obi, then tie them together in a knot at the back below the obi.
3. Pick up the back and position the koshi-ita (board) is placed over the not, above the obi and in the centre of your back. Some hakama have a small plastc tag on a chord, this should be pushed down inside the obi to help hold the koshi-ita in its correct position,
4. Bring the rear himo to the front, and slightly diagonally downwards to tie in a reef knot below the obi, pulling fairly tight compared to the previous chords. When you tie this knot catch the previously tied chords in the knot. This way you are less likely to have everything come apart during training.
5. for general training tuck the loose pieces of himo in around the sides. For special training and embu there is a special bow for this purpose.

This should get you started. However, if your teacher prefers a different method, follow his/her method.

[rottunpunk]

aye same here
though i do my front half all above the obi knot so it doesnt fall down
and the back strap i do on the same level as the crossover part as opposed to below, as its more comfortable for me that way

oh and i always do a bow as it looks pretty :D
:p

[Decado]

aye same here
though i do my front half all above the obi knot so it doesnt fall down
and the back strap i do on the same level as the crossover part as opposed to below, as its more comfortable for me that way

oh and i always do a bow as it looks pretty :D
:p

Nige tried that when he first got his hakama. Needless to say he doesn't do that anymore!

Wonder if the guy who asked the question four years ago ever did manage to work out how to tie everything together?

[babayaga]

1. step into hakama holding front in both hands (traditionally i was taught step in left foot first but never found out why)

Left first is the general rule in Japanese culture.

[Peter West]

Left first is the general rule in Japanese culture.

Except when you stand up, step forward...
This still doesn't explain WHY

[Peter West]

aye same here
though i do my front half all above the obi knot so it doesnt fall down
and the back strap i do on the same level as the crossover part as opposed to below, as its more comfortable for me that way

oh and i always do a bow as it looks pretty :D
:p

Sorry forgot to explain:
the way I described is for men. Women doing this will often end up with half the hakama round their ankles after a couple of sitting forms. Nothing kinky or sexist, they're just a significantly (often pleasantly) different shape.

[Ojiisan]

- Step into hakama; pull it up to waist level.
- Drop hakama, turn around and put it on right way 'round.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- drop hakama again; step into it again; this time insuring both legs don't go into the same hole.
- pull it up to waist level again.
- take the front ties in hand and wrap them around and behind your body.
- pull up hakama to waist level again.
-grab ties again.
-pull hakama up again. Hold it in place with elbow.
- Grab ties again. hold them with teeth.
- pull up hakama again. Try to hold it in place by crossing legs in bizarre 'gotta pee' position while trying to grab both front ties with one hand and guide them to teeth.
- leave ties alone; staple front of hakama to belt. Gingerly take up ties trying not to disturb hakama.
- apply first aid to small holes in stomach.
- tuck top of hakama behind belt; grab ties and shove them bodily between belt and gi.
- wrap ties about a dozen times around body; tie in square knot.
- retie in square knot.
- think about joining Boy Scouts to learn how to tie knots.
- tie in big ol' fashioned granny knot.
- untie ties in a hurry; take deep breath before passing out. Wait until face goes from blue to pink - or whatever colour it normally is. Retie a little less tight than before.
- pull up back of hakama, grab ties, pass them between belt and gi.
- tie back ties in front. There should be about 10 meters of tie left over.
- Fold left tie in half, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again, then half again until it forms a sort of pad 10 centimeters long and about twice that thick.
- place folded tie horizontally against stomach.
- take unfolded tie and wrap it around the mass of ties and knots and pads over its entire length until it forms a monstrous bow at your stomach.
- adjust cardboard bit so it fits snugly against your stomach.
- look again at carboard bit, then at the hakamas of instructors watching and laughing their heads off.
- cry.
- undo hakama, get out and start over.

[Peter West]

Ojiisan, you are from a different school. If that's how your sensei tells you to do it, who am I to argue?

[Yonshakujo]

Here's my method for Hakama (I'm not claiming this is the only way, just that this is how I do it) :
1. step into hakama holding front in both hands (traditionally i was taught step in left foot first but never found out why)。。。。。。。。。。。。。
I was told by a very senior ZKR instructor that practice begins with the unfolding of the hakama, to get you into the correct mindset, and that you step into the hakama with your left foot first so as to not entangle your right foot in case you have to move to defend yourself against attack - you're always ready, thinking of your position and balance, and how to react in the worst situation. Same as the reverse, stepping out with the right first, ready for someone to take advantage of that momentary distraction and entanglement. 残心。。。。。。。。。。

Of course, the same guy told me it was a good idea to drink a vat of cheap sake with him, too, and we were certainly not prepared for battle that night, or the next day or two.... :confused:

[Jin509]

Navigate through these pages http://kimonoo.net/kituke.html They are in Japanese but if you use babelfish at altavista you can translate them into English, however the pictures are easy to follow.

For obi I recommend this one

http://kimonoo.net/kata1.html

as for the Hakama

http://kimonoo.net/ham-1.html

Have fun!

thnx for the links. i havent worn my hakama and keikogi for soo long that i nearly forgot how to tie the hakama. it would slowly fall apart during practice!!:redface:

[Decado]

Left first is the general rule in Japanese culture.

Sorry Beth, it's from the song:

"You put your left leg in,
You put your left leg out,
You put your left leg in,
And you shake it all about,
You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn yourself around,
That's what it's all about"

Very popular in London I gather!

(probably totally lost most of the people on KWF on that one I think)

[turboyoshi]

You do the Hokey Cokey and you turn yourself around,
[...]
(probably totally lost most of the people on KWF on that one I think)

"Cokey" ??
I think you should find a new supplier. Looks like you been in Kenzan's stash.
Noticing any "special" feelings for small woodland creatures lately? :laugh:

sean

[Decado]

"Cokey" ??
I think you should find a new supplier. Looks like you been in Kenzan's stash.
Noticing any "special" feelings for small woodland creatures lately? :laugh:

sean

I think the song is the Hokey Pokey in the US.

Small woodland creatures! Ah, Kenzan's bush(y tail)! Does nibbling your nuts make you have "special" feelings for small woodland creatures? :laugh:

[JCM]

Ah, Kenzan's bush(y tail)! Does nibbling your nuts make you have "special" feelings for small woodland creatures? :laugh:

Mental picture, thanks a lot:hurt:

[babayaga]

Except when you stand up, step forward...
This still doesn't explain WHY

Probably for much the same reason that left is "sinister" and disfavored in Western culture: good ol' ageless superstition.

As I am sure you are aware, there is not necessarily a reason for everything we do in the martial arts, and when reasons are constructed we end up with drivel like "the meanings of the seven pleats of the hakama." For putting on hakama, "left leg first" probably falls into that category.

[Peter West]

I was told by a very senior ZKR instructor that practice begins with the unfolding of the hakama, to get you into the correct mindset, and that you step into the hakama with your left foot first so as to not entangle your right foot in case you have to move to defend yourself against attack - you're always ready, thinking of your position and balance, and how to react in the worst situation. Same as the reverse, stepping out with the right first, ready for someone to take advantage of that momentary distraction and entanglement. 残心。。。。。。。。。。

Of course, the same guy told me it was a good idea to drink a vat of cheap sake with him, too, and we were certainly not prepared for battle that night, or the next day or two.... :confused:


Babayaga also said:
As I am sure you are aware, there is not necessarily a reason for everything we do in the martial arts, and when reasons are constructed we end up with drivel like "the meanings of the seven pleats of the hakama." For putting on hakama, "left leg first" probably falls into that category.


I have also heard the reason Yonshakujo mentions, but I'm not convinced by it. After all if you get dressed in a place where someone could attack you in this way and you are not aware of the threat, you deserve to have bits cut off, and, furthermore, you still have to put your right foot in at some time.

Babayaga's explanation i find far more convincing. But in that case why have any rule at all? Were Japanese beginners so dependent on their instructors that they needed this level of instruction? Or were old school sensei so controlling that they felt a need to determine even these details?

[Harry Jones]

Right? Left? Gosh! I tend to be ruled by the practicality of the situation. Get into the thing a quickly as possible to maximise training time.

Harry

[Oroshi]

To my knowledge left then right is sahō for things worn on the legs. Right then left is what you'd do if you were going to perform seppuku. When taking off the hakama, you step out with your right leg first. The same applies for tabi. (Of course, when wearing kimono or dōgi right then left (右前) is normal, unless you are dead).

Reading up a bit on this, it seems that the reasoning Yonshakujo mentions is quite widespread. That doesn't necessarily mean it's realistic, but it could be more about maintaining a certain mindset.

I'm not sure if it matters so much for beginners, unless your sensei makes a point of it. I was certainly never told about it in the dojo.

[Peter West]

Right? Left? Gosh! I tend to be ruled by the practicality of the situation. Get into the thing a quickly as possible to maximise training time.

Harry

I tend to do the opposite. I stand there thinking "was it right or left first?". Much as that might seem like an alzheimer-induced trip to munen-mushin-land, it is in fact a practical solution to a very real problem. It delays my entry into the dojo and minimises the time i have to face the horrors of some of the things my students present to me purporting to be iaido.

Seriously though, while I agree with you, I think I've done it left foot first so long now it's as natural as moving shimo no ashi first in the dojo...or is it kami no ashi???!!!

[Harry Jones]

It delays my entry into the dojo and minimises the time i have to face the horrors of some of the things my students present to me purporting to be iaido.

Te He. Actually a similar thought occurred to me just after I last posted. That perhaps dressing in a kind of spiritual and meaningful mindset originates from a very hung over teacher trying to delay the dreadful moment of beginning practice. Personally if I’m trying to delay I find it very useful to straighten my sageo 50 thousand times. (must get those ends even or everyone will see how unbalanced my mind is!)

[Wonderwillow]

Wow getting some good tips here

I think I'm with Harry on this one. But I think that’s my trouble so keen to get into the dojo (or most probably running late). I never seem to get the job done properly.

All adds to the dojo comedy.

I think there should be some sort hakama training day. Where we get together and share different hakama tying and folding techniques.:smiley:

[Wonderwillow]

OK I'm with Harry' previous comment

I have no idea what it's like to be drunk!... honest

[corwyn]

I asked my mother (first generation Japanese) why there's the obsession with left-first for a lot of things in Japan, and she had no idea...just tradition.

Left foot first stepping into hakama (reversed, right foot first when stepping out)
Left knee first when dropping into seiza
Left hand first when bowing in seiza (and then right hand is first one to come out of the bow)

Maybe the hokey-pokey is what it's all about....

[Peter West]

Maybe keeping the right side free to act as long as possible is not specifically necessary in those circumstances, but maybe it's part of the training to ALWAY keep the right foot and hand free to act. Maybe this is part of the "as that should be the natural way a swordsman moves, so that is the way you should do everything" to become instinctive and natural. In a similar manner O chiburi is a cutting action, but it doesn't need to be, in order to be effective any old shake will do, but back to the "as that should be the natural way a swordsman moves, so that is the way you should do everything" adage, it make sense to make it a cutting action.

...maybe...

[Peter West]

Maybe keeping the right side free to act as long as possible is not specifically necessary in those circumstances, but maybe it's part of the training to ALWAY keep the right foot and hand free to act. Maybe this is part of the "as that should be the natural way a swordsman moves, so that is the way you should do everything" to become instinctive and natural. In a similar manner O chiburi is a cutting action, but it doesn't need to be, in order to be effective any old shake will do, but back to the "as that should be the natural way a swordsman moves, so that is the way you should do everything" adage, it make sense to make it a cutting action.

...maybe...

[Decado]

Strangely enough, I've always put my left leg into the hakama first although no-one told me to do so. Maybe it's natural for a right handed (and legged) person like myself to do so. Something to do with feeling better balanced standing on my right leg maybe?

As a matter of interest, does anyone who is naturally left-handed feel they should put their right leg into the hakama first?

[corwyn]

Given the Japanese obsession with the left first, I was curious to know why gohonme kesagiri (the only standing kata I know so far) started with the right, but perhaps it's a combination of practical and superstitious things. It seems like it would be awkward to draw and perform the upwards cut with the left foot forward, so you want to end forward motion with the right foot forwards. The number four is bad luck, so to have an even number of steps, you'd either have to go with 2 or 6 steps. 2 might have been considered too few, and 6 too many, so they settled on 3, so you have to start with the right.

Of course, this is purely pulled out of my butt and is based on the only standing form I know...

[Peter West]

Corwyn, all standing Iai kata begin on the right foot. This is because it is naturally easier to cut with the right foot forward, so
step 1. right foot. This represents the last step of naturally walking along minding your own business
step 2. left foot. Some idiot thinks he can get the better of you. You look at the enemy, take the sword and draw most of the blade on the 2nd step so that
step 3. right foot, you show him he was wrong.

There are variations, so don't everyone try and shoot me down. This is the general principle.

In 2 man kata, generally you approach the centre beginning with the foot that is naturally forward in the opening kamae.

[babayaga]

Corwyn, all standing Iai kata begin on the right foot.

*cough* korranto? *cough*

The exception that proves the rule. ^_^

Anyway, to get back to the reason, Peter also said this upthread:

I have also heard the reason Yonshakujo mentions, but I'm not convinced by it. After all if you get dressed in a place where someone could attack you in this way and you are not aware of the threat, you deserve to have bits cut off, and, furthermore, you still have to put your right foot in at some time.

Hear, hear.

I'm still a baby at this, so my opinion doesn't hold much weight, but I do believe one of the aims of practicing so many different waza is to ingrain flexibility and proactability (see, I made up my own word) into our repertoire. So we can act from all situations and conditions. When you're getting dressed, you are holding your hakama in both hands and your sword is not on your person -- you're in no position to defend yourself other than by jumping out of your hakama and throwing the garment at teki. I would hope that anyone is just as capable of doing that with their right foot in the hakama as the left.

To be more concise, I would hope that no one is that narrowly trained.

[Peter West]

*cough* korranto? *cough*

The exception that proves the rule. ^_^



That's interesting. Koranto (Musi Shinden Ryu Shoden, right?) is the equivalent kata to MJER Oikaze if I'm not mistaken. Oikaze certainly begins on the right foot (5, 7 or 9 running steps). I know Koranto is different, but I wasn't aware that it is taught beginning on the left foot. I don't train MSR, so what do I know?

This would support your statement
http://uk.youtube.com/results?search_query=iaido+koran+to

anyway, I did say "There are variations, so don't everyone try and shoot me down. This is the general principle."

[babayaga]

That's interesting. Koranto (Musi Shinden Ryu Shoden, right?) is the equivalent kata to MJER Oikaze if I'm not mistaken.

Correct. Where we might vary steps is after the nukitsuke, at least as I've been taught.


anyway, I did say "There are variations, so don't everyone try and shoot me down. This is the general principle."

Hey, if I was shooting you down I wouldn't have used smileys -- I'd have used eye-rolling and more shooting-downerly language. ^_^

Anyway, I riffled through my brain trying to think of any other waza that begin on left foot, and of our shoden level techniques korranto is the only one. I'm only passing familiar with some of our chuden and okuden waza, and no left-foot starters there AFAIK.

Interesting. So now I'm wondering how that difference in korranto came about.

[jakku-san]

Correct. Where we might vary steps is after the nukitsuke, at least as I've been taught.



Hey, if I was shooting you down I wouldn't have used smileys -- I'd have used eye-rolling and more shooting-downerly language. ^_^

Anyway, I riffled through my brain trying to think of any other waza that begin on left foot, and of our shoden level techniques korranto is the only one. I'm only passing familiar with some of our chuden and okuden waza, and no left-foot starters there AFAIK.

Interesting. So now I'm wondering how that difference in korranto came about.

yeh that is strange that it starts of the left, in jikiden(how i understand it) i work it by a 2 5 2 step sort of thing, the first two are your strolling along, the 5 are leading to the nukitsuke and the last two the kiritsuke. (i think... i may be thinking of something else tho:P) then again ive been wrong before:P

[Peter West]

yeh that is strange that it starts of the left, in jikiden(how i understand it) i work it by a 2 5 2 step sort of thing, the first two are your strolling along, the 5 are leading to the nukitsuke and the last two the kiritsuke. (i think... i may be thinking of something else tho:P) then again ive been wrong before:P

That's about right, as far as it can be described in words.

[Peter West]

Correct. Where we might vary steps is after the nukitsuke, at least as I've been taught.



Hey, if I was shooting you down I wouldn't have used smileys -- I'd have used eye-rolling and more shooting-downerly language. ^_^

Anyway, I riffled through my brain trying to think of any other waza that begin on left foot, and of our shoden level techniques korranto is the only one. I'm only passing familiar with some of our chuden and okuden waza, and no left-foot starters there AFAIK.

Interesting. So now I'm wondering how that difference in korranto came about.

I don't know (after all until today I hadn't realized koranto was done of the left in 2 paces anyway).

There are kai waza (kae waza?) for oku iai Yuki Zure and Tsuri Dachi with no paces, just a move of the front foot to open the posture for Kiritsuke. I once did Tsuri Dachi as a stab to the rear left with no footwork at all followed by a cut to the right front using the technique of Kabezoi. it was the final of a European Championships in 1994 (5th dan section). It was a tough match and I was pulling out all the stops. Luckily no Japanese referees or they'd have been laughing too much to raise a flag.

[jakku-san]

I don't know (after all until today I hadn't realized koranto was done of the left in 2 paces anyway).

There are kai waza (kae waza?) for oku iai Yuki Zure and Tsuri Dachi with no paces, just a move of the front foot to open the posture for Kiritsuke. I once did Tsuri Dachi as a stab to the rear left with no footwork at all followed by a cut to the right front using the technique of Kabezoi. it was the final of a European Championships in 1994 (5th dan section). It was a tough match and I was pulling out all the stops. Luckily no Japanese referees or they'd have been laughing too much to raise a flag.

Thats quite an interesting maneuver id loved to have seen tht!

[jakku-san]

That's about right, as far as it can be described in words.

thankyou:P
i was wondering how to attempt it in words:P