8th Dan vs 5th Dan video [Archive]

Fuzzy

20th May 2011, 07:17 PM

Im saying it doesnt look like it.
I know alot of things in kendo are subjective i.e. ippon or not ippon, but being a kendo junkie and watching as much kendo of higher levels as I can this just didnt look right to me.
I have been asked by my sensei to watch Funatsu sensei videos as much as I can and that is the level I would expect.
You dont need to be a chef to know when something just doesn't taste right.

Hisham

20th May 2011, 08:43 PM

No need to be defensive about it, i just have 5 years of practical experience in kendo (3 training sessions a week), so i'm genuinely interested in knowing what makes that jigeiko not "taste right", is it just because it doesn't look like Funatsu sensei's jigeiko(s) or what?

Fuzzy

20th May 2011, 08:53 PM

Its difficult not to get defensive on here, I usually try and avoid making oppinion. But I too am striving to improve myself with a better understanding of higher level kendo.
I guess if I had to quantify it its that there seems to be few attacks made from genuine opportunity, and the quality of the cuts and zanshin are not what I would have expected.
Im taking it from the video is that the 8th dan is on the left and the 5th on the right. The complete collapse of the kamae at :46 and then men at :50 is not something I would expect to see at this level.

Fuzzy

20th May 2011, 08:56 PM

Oh i forgot, i saw this video first from the same poster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bc6h1mbApY

this states "my dad" also and the guy on the left is the same kendoka on the left in the other video

Hisham

20th May 2011, 09:48 PM

I see, the second video does seem odd but... Anyway it seems that the uploader is from New Zealand, you could pm Alex about Mr Chen, he would probably know about him.

Fuzzy

20th May 2011, 11:04 PM

Im not that bothered, I just like things to chat about :)

DCPan

21st May 2011, 04:01 PM

Hi Everyone,

I just found this and found myself confused.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOUCRglAJt8

It say 8th Dan vs 5th Dan.

Thoughts?

Fuzzy

It's really not that surprising.

By the way he's moving, he's clearly an old timer. Just watch his left hand.

That gentleman on the left was wearing a Taiwanese nafuda in the video.

If you travel around Taiwan a little bit, you'll find some older sensei that don't feel the need to conform to the current look of kendo.

Besides, you don't really know the age or the condition of the kenshi in the video.

Considering from the background that this seemed like an video of an established dojo and this is an international forum, I'm not so sure suggesting that they don't look the part is wise....

YMMV.

Fuzzy

21st May 2011, 05:32 PM

Thankyou for adding some clarity. I was drawn into making oppinion against my better judgement.
Having never travelled around Taiwan I had not experienced this.
I only sought clarity to better understand, which I do to improve my knowledge and thus become a better kendoka.
I apologise unreservedly if my comments caused any offense.

Fuzzy

Kokoro777

21st May 2011, 08:46 PM

This is just my interpretation but don't you think the stockier gentleman on the left (hachidan) has a distasteful, arrogant, swagger about him? See how he, rather rudely in my opinion, drops his shinai with tip almost dragging along the floor between exchanges, walks back to the starting position with his back to his opponent as though the rokudan is of no worth? He often holds his shinai to the side after an exchange to and if I were rokudan I'd launch an attack at that point or when his back was turned and when he literally had his guard down!

bobdonny

21st May 2011, 09:22 PM

Kokoro777

21st May 2011, 10:03 PM

Godan.I would be mildly surprised if a hachidan didn't have that swagger or arrogance.Godan, sorry. Arrogance? You think that's acceptable at any stage of Kendo? If so I'm glad I left Kendo and followed different path when I did.

I would also pay money to see you or any other kendoka attack a hachidan whilst their back was turned or after they just scored ippon :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaPxuwPhkDg About 1:14.... I'l let you know where to send your money in unmarked bills :wink:

b8amack

21st May 2011, 10:10 PM

Godan, sorry. Arrogance? You think that's acceptable at any stage of Kendo? If so I'm glad I left Kendo and followed different path when I did.

You left kendo because it wasn't uptight enough for you?

D'Artagnan

21st May 2011, 10:33 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaPxuwPhkDg About 1:14.... I'l let you know where to send your money in unmarked bills :wink:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but about this -

is the guy in white a 8dan? does it say that somewhere? maybe in the full version of the documentary? or perhaps elsewhere? even better is there somewhere where his name is written?? I have been intrigued since I saw that footage for the first time about who that is...

bobdonny

21st May 2011, 10:59 PM

Godan, sorry. Arrogance? You think that's acceptable at any stage of Kendo? If so I'm glad I left Kendo and followed different path when I did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaPxuwPhkDg About 1:14.... I'l let you know where to send your money in unmarked bills :wink:

Sorry, maybe percieved arrogance better terminology.... I'm not sure of the word... but I am sure that sometimes that frame of mind is necessary to push the learner. And that is quite common espcially at the higher grades.Maybe the 'percieved arrogance' is almost like the teacher overplaying the ippon with extraneous action making sure you know you were hit and to think about your mistake...
I could be completely off the ball...I aint hachidan ;)

Oh ya, well if your tenth dan maybe you can hit anyone anywhere at anytime ;)

Neil Gendzwill

22nd May 2011, 05:28 AM

See how he, rather rudely in my opinion, drops his shinai with tip almost dragging along the floor between exchanges, walks back to the starting position with his back to his opponent as though the rokudan is of no worth? He often holds his shinai to the side after an exchange to and if I were rokudan I'd launch an attack at that point or when his back was turned and when he literally had his guard down!How else would he walk back to centre? Should he walk backwards, carefully keeping an eye on the opponent in case the opponent launches another attack? His opponent is dead, the point is finished, walk back to centre, reset and try again. This is a form of etiquette you must pick up on when dealing with more senior people - when fighting junior people, it's common to keep bashing away continuously. But the sensei will hit you and as far as they are concerned, that point is over. There is no sense in continuing, recentre and start over and see if you can win the next one.

As far as the general attitude, well that is part and parcel of it all. You can choose to view it as arrogance if you like, and frankly for certain sensei you would not necessarily be wrong, but senior people need to display that total confidence and project that dominating attitude - the Japanese term is "kigurai". You can't pass a kodansha exam without it.

yoda-waza

22nd May 2011, 01:30 PM

I'm unqualified to critique but, with all due respect to the sensei in that video, I didn't draw inspiration from the display.

b8amack

22nd May 2011, 11:31 PM

It's a snippet from the middle of a class. Should cherubs come from outside the frame to blow trumpets every time the 8dan scores a hit? Take it for what it is.

JSchmidt

23rd May 2011, 09:01 PM

and if I were rokudan I'd launch an attack at that point or when his back was turned and when he literally had his guard down!
And just would the purpose of that be?

h2o

23rd May 2011, 09:18 PM

I would also pay money to see you or any other kendoka attack a hachidan whilst their back was turned or after they just scored ippon :) I would pay to see what happens AFTER he has done that ;)

Tort-Speed

24th May 2011, 06:05 PM

When you've just been "killed" such as your wrist or torso severed, it doesn't feel like the cutter is arrogant but that by turning his back, as Neil Sensei said, you're getting a chance to regroup and try again. Not rare, especially with old-timers; some just step back with lowered shinai - why not, the attacker is dead.
Andy, it could be that Mochida Sensei's opponent is his "deshi" Kaburagi Sensei; never did learn his Dan before that (older of 2 brothers) gentleman at Noma Dojo passed on. He was a Shinto Priest, btw, in charge of a large shrine in Chiba Pref. He and his younger brother, the latter a fine calligrapher whose go-to Kendo technique was "doh," wore all white with blue bogu. The senior Kaburagi was rather tall, so just imagining it could have been him being pushed around by his teacher.

Josh Reyer

24th May 2011, 08:49 PM

How else would he walk back to centre? Should he walk backwards, carefully keeping an eye on the opponent in case the opponent launches another attack? Well, FWIW, this is how it'd be done in YSR (kata and shiai). Once you bow in to your aite, you never turn your back to them, no matter whether they are senior or junior.

Kokoro777

24th May 2011, 09:09 PM

How else would he walk back to centre? Should he walk backwards, carefully keeping an eye on the opponent in case the opponent launches another attack?Well.....yes like these two nanadan are doing (I've just lifted this clip for the multimedia section) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCsfFQGOyAI

His opponent is dead, the point is finished, walk back to centre, reset and try again. Isn't the concept of 'zanshin' applicable here? The opponent might not be dead and if he isn't, you will be if you turn your back on him!

What I think I'm seeing in the original clip is slovenly 'competition' attitude and demeanor in dojo shiai where it isn't appropriate-in fact its never appropriate and its another reason I think competition is a bad thing and that Kendo is now a sport.

This isn't kigurai, its 'yeah I've lowered myself to practise with you'!

Let me repeat, these are my opinions and haven't practised Kendo for over 20 years. I'm just trying stimulating some intelligent debate by being a little controversial (for those who never seem to get it!)

bobdonny

24th May 2011, 09:46 PM

Well, FWIW, this is how it'd be done in YSR (kata and shiai). Once you bow in to your aite, you never turn your back to them, no matter whether they are senior or junior.

Well.....yes like these two nanadan are doing (I've just lifted this clip for the multimedia section) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCsfFQGOyAI
Isn't the concept of 'zanshin' applicable here? The opponent might not be dead and if he isn't, you will be if you turn your back on him!

I think both of your comments assume both parties to be peers or engaged in shiai.

However what really is in discussion is training and learning from somebody increadibly senior.

Also, zanshin is a very important lesson and I would image an 8th dan has spent literally months or years of her life discussing it and teaching it. However that is not to say that there are not other lessons in kendo and other methods to teach them. Usually its something like aite keeps missing an opportuinity or attacking overeagerly etc. and the time to return and rebuild both physically ( kamae) and mentally (spirit etc.).

Hisham

24th May 2011, 11:08 PM

What I think I'm seeing in the original clip is slovenly 'competition' attitude and demeanor in dojo shiai where it isn't appropriate-in fact its never appropriate and its another reason I think competition is a bad thing and that Kendo is now a sport.

That wasn't a shiai. There are many things that you'd see in a grueling jigeiko that would make what you saw in that video seem benign especially when it's between a teacher and a student. My sensei back in Canada ocasionally used to wipe the floor with us in jigeiko, it sometimes got to the point where you'd be pushed back to the exit door, untill you've shown your "never give up" spirit. Good times :)

DCPan

25th May 2011, 04:27 AM

this states "my dad" also and the guy on the left is the same kendoka on the left in the other video

I apologise unreservedly if my comments caused any offense.

No worries...at least I haven't taken any offense.

I only spoke up because I was putting myself in the shoes of say "the son who posted this" or "if I was one of his students how would I feel?"

I'm just trying stimulating some intelligent debate by being a little controversial (for those who never seem to get it!)

I'm not so sure there's really much to discuss here...you can learn from what you like, you can also learn from what you don't like.

It's one thing to sit in the privacy of your own home with your dojomates and say "You know, I don't care for that guy's kendo".

It's quite another to do it on an open forum talking about people you don't know with an unknown audience.

YMMV.

Kokoro777

25th May 2011, 06:34 AM

Well, it just a bit of chat about an interesting video clip and we shouldn't take it as anything more-this is a forum for discussion after all!

I'm sure the 8th Dan is well deserving of his grade-I know it isn't easy to achieve-and I'm sure I'm not seeing what experienced people are seeing when observing it. BUT there's a Japanese saying 'He who has attained mastery of his art displays it in his every movement' and I think even a casual onlooker can tell the difference between 'good' and 'not so good' (whatever those subjective terms mean) Kendo, Iai, Naginatado, Karate, tennis, football, water colour painting......I personally wouldn't want my Kendo (if I practised it) to look like that 8th Dan's whereas I would want it to look like the clip of Maeda Sensei's and colleague. Its just my feeling based on my amateur observation.

DCPan

25th May 2011, 07:29 AM

Well, it just a bit of chat about an interesting video clip and we shouldn't take it as anything more-this is a forum for discussion after all!

Easier said than done really. You can prove your point by throwing up a video of yourself up here...even better, throw up a video of someone you care about, such as a significant other.

turboyoshi

25th May 2011, 08:41 AM

Well, it just a bit of chat about an interesting video clip and we shouldn't take it as anything more-this is a forum for discussion after all!

Discussion implies an open minded and intelligent exchange, not merely posting opinions without much forethought.

Kokoro777

25th May 2011, 05:20 PM

Discussion implies an open minded and intelligent exchange, not merely posting opinions without much forethought.The implication being I haven't thought about my comments? You have quite a skill being able to tell that all the way from woodstock, ga.

Kokoro777

25th May 2011, 05:20 PM

Easier said than done really. You can prove your point by throwing up a video of yourself up here...even better, throw up a video of someone you care about, such as a significant other.I'm sorry, DCPan I'm not sure what you're getting at.

bobdonny

25th May 2011, 06:17 PM

look kokoro can make an ass of himself if he likes... he doesnt do kendo so it possibly is irrelevent.

Regards the video... the user put it on utube and therefore should have known better, I have no sympathy for them. There are video's of myself and my club on youtube and if people want to critise them publically on a forum then I have no choice but to endure it...or remove the offending article ;)

Meta-argueing (argueing about how to argue) may be interesting but is kenda pointless :)

Kokoro777

25th May 2011, 06:47 PM

look kokoro can make an ass of himself if he likes... he doesnt do kendo so it possibly is irrelevent.How very dare you! I hold the dizzying rank of ikkyu in Kendo taken back in the day when gradings meant something :wink: Besides, do you have to be an expert chef to be a food critic? Do the 'Top Gear' team have any formal qualifications in car design or are they champion drivers? Do Trinny and Susanna dress well?
Meta-argueing (argueing about how to argue) may be interesting but is kenda pointless :)Hey, people make whole careers of doing this.

b8amack

25th May 2011, 08:21 PM

Besides, do you have to be an expert chef to be a food critic?

You do have to eat regularly, though.

Do the 'Top Gear' team have any formal qualifications in car design or are they champion drivers? Do Trinny and Susanna dress well?Hey, people make whole careers of doing this.Again, same. Arguable skill level aside (car design on $100 or less is not something one really succeeds at, I think... but they still fail) they do. A more relevant comparison to yourself would be someone who ate steak 20 years ago, didn't like it, and became a vegetarian. Now they decide to rate steakhouses based on hidden camera photos taken at random from the restaurant.

b8amack

25th May 2011, 08:26 PM

Mr. Heaven Heart aside, what's a video of an (even alleged) 8th dan still doing in the flames section?

rainmaker

5th June 2011, 11:01 AM

I am sorry but I hate people like you. Someone who do their kendo with their mouth instead of doing real kendo. I have seen people like you so many times and tired of this. If you left kendo, why do you bother to keep coming back to Kendo World and leave 996 posts ? In the real world, we call people like you a "stalker." Most of people who are replying you have much more experience in Kendo and have seen different levels of kendo. They try to tell you and you just don't listen.

How very dare you! I hold the dizzying rank of ikkyu in Kendo taken back in the day when gradings meant something :wink: Besides, do you have to be an expert chef to be a food critic? Do the 'Top Gear' team have any formal qualifications in car design or are they champion drivers? Do Trinny and Susanna dress well?Hey, people make whole careers of doing this.