kendo and religion

[ben]

I am interested to know from people on the forum their experience of the following:

Have you ever experienced conflict between the practice of kendo (including etiquette) and your own, or someone else in your dojo's, religious beliefs? What has been the outcome?

...or the positive corollary of that question...

Have you ever found a surprising synergy between yours/others' beliefs and your kendo practice?

...or finally...

Have your religious or spiritual beliefs been shaped by kendo?

The potential for this thread to become incendiary is high (moderators have your red pencils ready! ;)). Therefore please at all times be respectful and try as much as possible to share your own experience rather than just make comments on others'.

:)
b

[James]

Well I sometimes underestimate the power of the dark side........

[JSchmidt]

Thanks, James :)

Jakob

[alexpollijr]

Ben,

Don't mean to ruin your thread but my answers are all 'no' . It's 'oogy-boogy' you know.

[Achilles]

I'm really glad you brought this thread up, Ben.

I am a Christian, and I am constantly amazed by the paralells I see between kumdo and Christian practice.

The best example is Christ's seemingly cryptic command: "he would keep his life must first be willing to lose it" (apologies if the translation from the Greek is off).

This is wholly applicable in kumdo. IMHO, one must be ready to die to get his cut in. When you go to cut mori, you have throw yourself into the target, completely confident that you have the point and utterly fearlessly. If you hesistate, if you hold back, if you wait, you are lost.

This is much the same in Christian practice. You must throw yourself into your faith and trust in God. You must be completely ready to die, confident that even that can't separate from Him.

I've always found that paralell quite interesting.

[reicheru]

An interesting question. I'm Jewish, and was raised in a fairly observant household. In college (that's "uni" for many of you), I started losing touch with Judaism, and eventually that started getting me down. With 3 semesters left of college, I decided it was time to start going to Friday night Sabbath services more regularly, in the hopes of finding the spiritual part of my life that was missing.

Around the same time, I started kendo. Conflict -- kendo practices were also on Friday nights (bad timing for college students, but they still drew a fair number of people most weeks). For a while I waivered between the two, then ultimately chose kendo over the Jewish services (I won't say I chose kendo over Judaism, 'cause that's certainly not true -- there's a lot more to being Jewish than Friday night services). A few months later, I found that my life was more spiritually satisfying. I don't think it was kendo alone that had that effect (especially because I was too busy those final 3 semesters to attend practices regularly), but it was definitely a factor.

Now I'm in Hokkaido with, as far as I can tell, probably fewer than a dozen Jews on the entire island. But my spiritual life is pretty good, and I know that kendo is a big part of that!

As for specific beliefs, I'm pretty sure there's nowhere in Judaism that says "thou shalt hit thy neighbor over the head with a wooden stick, screaming at the top of thy lungs," but themes such as respecting others and constantly questioning, learning, and trying to improve yourself are definitely present in both... does that answer your question?

Rachel

[mingshi]

And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword
-Dt 20:13

[David J]

As a Buddhist, Kendo is so in-sync with my beliefs and practices its untrue. There was a strange sense of "coming home" when I started Kendo, in the same way as when I discovered Buddhism - everything felt very right.

As a Buddhist there is plenty in there to fuel ones practice - ego obviously is a big issue. I'm looking forward to entering shiai to test out just how good my "ego-destruction techniques" have been :D

I dont see Kendo as being "Buddhist" as such, but from experience, the two complement each other nicely. I dont think Kendo would lead you to Buddhism/Zen if you weren't there already...well maybe as an "interest" - I think as sceptical Westerners you tend to need something a little more substantial to set you on the path.

My only frustration is that the meditation only lasts for 30 seconds at our dojo - you cant meditate for half a minute!! But, I wouldnt wish to change this - we are there for Kendo - go to a temple if you want a meditation class!

One thing - in my (limited) experience, Kendo people are good people. Is this just my experience?

<rei>

Dave

[Charlie]

I would have to say that kendo has reinforced my religious beliefs (Christian) and I hope it would do the same for anybody. That said, the secular nature of kendo has always been emphasized in my experience. That is, it's pointed out to me in kendo in America that some of the etiquette comes from a Shinto or Zen background, but that this is a formality to be invested with one's own personal - if any - spiritual beliefs.

[alexpollijr]

> One thing - in my (limited) experience, Kendo people are good > people. Is this just my experience?


I believe it's just your experience. I've met so many people who are a complete pain in the *ss . Ego is the main reason I think. A stupid sense of superiority. Some people lose it on the way, but many keep it.

[KhawMengLee]

This is wholly applicable in kumdo. IMHO, one must be ready to die to get his cut in. When you go to cut mori, you have throw yourself into the target, completely confident that you have the point and utterly fearlessly. If you hesistate, if you hold back, if you wait, you are lost.

Sounds like what they say for every sport.eg. rugby, my Dad, my coach always said to us. If you tackle someone don't worry about anything else. If you start thinking of things like "gosh, this fucker is big!" you will hesitate and get hurt.

This I can sorta agree with.


This is much the same in Christian practice. You must throw yourself into your faith and trust in God. You must be completely ready to die, confident that even that can't separate from Him.

Blind Faith is a dangerous thing. It leads people to war, to commit murder or worse. You can trust in yourself because no one knows you better than you. But to trust in the words of man or men is a little bit more tricky.

I am not saying the christian god doesn't exist. But the bible is written by men and translated by men/or women. They are not without fault. The pope started off the first crusade by claiming the muslims were defiling Jerusalem. But it was actually his move to try to bring the Greek Orthodox Church under his power.

If we all followed blind faith then we would still be killing jews and muslims in the name of god. We would still believe the world was flat. The sun revolves around us and much of the other thoughts of the dark ages.

Listen. Think. Then Do.
**************************************************

My religion and kendo has never been in conflict. Yes, I am a buddhist but I take it as a philosophy. The best thing a buddhist teacher(my mom...yes) once said to me was this,

"The only day you stop learning is the day you die."

I take this with everything I do. Always keep an open mind and never be too unyielding.

In his encounter with the famed courtesean Yoshino (Eiji Yoshikawa's Musashi), Musashi is given a lesson similar to this.

She points out how her shamisen's beautiful sound comes from the balance of the crosspiece/bridge. If it is too rigid the sound will be too sharp and the instrument might snap. If it is not strong enough it will be slack.

This is one of the conerstones of buddhist thought. One should always maintain balance. It applies to everything...if you think of too much kendo your wife will leave you. (which leads to the other cornerstone of impermanence. Nothing lasts forever.)

PEACE
MENG


MENG

[lewis]

None of the kendo or iaido dojos (all in the US) I have been to taught in such a way that it would conflict with anyone's religion. However, I have seen one or two students intentionally try to create conflict.

As an aside, did you hear about the Appeals Court case wherein a Judo student attempted to sue the Judo federation to stop the rei requirement? He won at the trial court but was overruled by the appeals court. My understanding is that they are seeking certiorari to the Supreme Court, but they don't have a snowball's chance. See,
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/011302/new_011302021.shtml

Although I was 'raised' Presbyterian, I rejected organized religion and have practiced Taoist philosophy since college. Kendo is, therfore, an excellent fit. In general, I have noticed that those who are drawn to kendo for the long haul typically have a higher degree of respect for others, which includes tolerance of alternative viewpoints.

[James]

If we all followed blind faith then we would still be killing jews and muslims in the name of god.

Can't say as I noticed that this has stopped.

In Nigeria a woman has just been sentenced to death by stoning, because she has had a baby (even thought this was over nine months since being divorced from her husband), under strict Sharia law.
However as she is going to be breastfeeding the baby - they aren't going to stone her to death for a couple of years. Now that's tolerance! Lucky we're not living in the middle ages.



In general, I have noticed that those who are drawn to kendo for the long haul typically have a higher degree of respect for others, which includes tolerance of alternative viewpoints.

yeah... unlike most organised religions

I'm with the oogy boogy man

[kendokamax]

I don't have a religion but i go to kendo religiously ( can u say that in english?).

[ben]

Since I started kendo I have a known a couple of people to refuse to bow to the kamiza/joseki on religious grounds. In each case they asked if it were possible to do kendo without bowing. In each case the answer was no, so they chose to move on. While I disagreed with their fundamentalist reading of their own religion, I respect now their honest and upfront way of dealing with a situation that was for them, a matter of conscience. And I think the answer given to them that no, there is no kendo without bowing, was also correct.

The sad thing I think, is that perhaps they weren't given a better explanation of what it is they were bowing for/towards.

Interestingly I know a devout Muslim who practices kendo. I asked him whether it was blasphemous to bow to the joseki. He said no, because for him it is only a religious bow before God if his forehead actually touches the floor. In bowing from seiza his head remains a few cm above it.

b

[KhawMengLee]

Interestingly I know a devout Muslim who practices kendo. I asked him whether it was blasphemous to bow to the joseki. He said no, because for him it is only a religious bow before God if his forehead actually touches the floor. In bowing from seiza his head remains a few cm above it.


heh, thats because the hands in this position /\ buffer the face from the ground. Also bowing too deeply exposes the neck which is an insult because you are basically saying "here, take my head. I'd rather you kill me then I submit to you."

I always took bowing as a sign of respect not worship. Around parts of asia you will see shrines called Datok Kong (da-toke kong) or Tok Kong (toke kong). Usually at old trees or earthmounds. These are earth spirits. Whether or not you believe it people here still bow and respect them. As a child we are taught to bow with hands in prayer if we go for a whizz out in the wild. This is because the site we piss on my be an earth spirit. We are not worshipping it but merely saying sorry.

Its similar to the kami one bows to in the dojo. It is not worship but just paying respect. Of course one should never piss in the dojo:p

***********************************************

On another note:

Buddhism and Taoism(similar but not the same) both use the still forest pond for a metaphore on balance. Water is used because no matter how much you stir the pot it always returns to the still surface. Water fits into any receptacle, it adapts to the new environment and balances out.

It is then interesting how chudan is known as the kamae of water(mizu no kamae).

PEACE
MENG

[Charlie]

Achilles,

I have often made the same connection ("he who would seek to preserve his life must lose it")! I remember re-reading that statement of Jesus' and thinking, "How samurai of him!"

[James]

If your God (inshallah, whoever she is) is omnipotent, surely she knows if you show a sign of respect that you are not worshipping tatami matting. Can God mistake your intentions?

The Pope himself is fine with getting on his knees and kissing the ground of a a country he visits without worrying he's gone over to the ashphalt side.

In most countries bowing = sign of respect. In the west it used to be courtesy (+ curtseying for da ladeez) before handshake took over (militaristic greeting declaring no weapon).

Agree about tolerant people in Kendo, I think this is because, a) there is always someone above you who can whip your butt, and b) most people remember what it was like when they were starting out and are willing to help others.
There are some *ssholes riding high on ego mainly because they have forgotten b), or insecure in another area of their life and need to belittle others for self-esteem, but these are few.

Thanks MENG, don't mind bowing if I piss on an earthmound
j

[Confound]

Amen, Mingshi.

I don't find any conflicts in kendou, but then again religion has always been more theoretical than practical for me. at first I had a real problem bowing to the shomen all the time; however, that was mostly because it was just another extra ritual, rather than a concern for 'losing my soul' by 'worshipping' a 'pagan power'. (whew, that's an awful load of contextualized words and phrases.)

c

[mingshi]

On visiting another Dojo, I met a Christian Korean, who refused to Rei at the Kamidana (the proper shrine-style shomen). He was given approval from the sensei. "I can bow to people to show repect, but that wooden box has nothing to deserve my respect!", he claimed. Thoughts?

I also very much dislike taking my shoes off the dojo area before/after practice. I'm the one sweeping the floor and the dojo wall (of a school gym) is filled with graffiti. Why does a dirty gym hall deserve my bare feet?

*****
To clarify, I'm actually a Satanist. Hail Satan!
When entering the Dojo, I bow. Not to Kamiza, but to Mr. Satan. "Welcome to hell!" He tells me.
Here goes the hell-like training.
Echoes of Kiai around the dojo sounds so much like poor souls being tortured in hell...
Missed cuts on me feels like whips from Satan himself. More, More!
When I've finished rows of Kirikaeshi, my lungs are exploding. Totally out of breath, and my throat is burning. I think paintings in the Renaissance never had captured this scenery (the closest discription is devils in masks, and souls boiling in the hot pot).
Kendo has certainly reinforce my believe in Satanism.

Buddist says, life is suffering. I agree. I was once quite into Zen, but I'll never be so enlightened to believe that "There is no sword"....
"... but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." This is from the Holy Bible, Matthew 5:39. But now I can tell you, "Whosoever shall smite me on my Yoko-men, I'd goddamn smite 10 times on thy Yoko-men!!".

Religion has always related to Martial Arts. Shaolin Kungfu is from Buddism. Tai-Chi is from Taoism. Even the Jedi believe in the Force. But that's the historical aspect of it. You can believe in anything, and make everything work for your religion, just as my Satanism. Do you want a religious challenge in this forum? Or you choose the place, I'd follow.

BTW, there ARE plenty of Kendoka from the dark side. The most famous one in the UK being some guy in the BKA some 2 years ago who cheated a huge amount of membership money... (of course got arrested later on, but the money is gone).

[ben]

The Korean guy of which you speak Mingshi, I'm sure had a lot of reasons to show defiance in a Japanese dojo - religious differences being only one of them.

Funny thing about those wooden boxes though, they're actually *empty* (derr and yet not derr). Reason being, you can put your own "Kami-sama" in them. Not that you need to, because, as James pointed out, "Kami-sama" doesn't need your permission to be anyplace s/he wants. :D

b

[hamish]

As Ben says, there is no resident "kami-sama" in the box, other than the one everyone in the dojo puts there.

A great dis-service is being done if the shinzen-ni-rei is described as a bow to any kind of disembodied "spirit."

The outward trappings of a proper kamiza are Shinto, so you can be easily mis-lead into thinking that it has some kind of religious meaning.

The spirit in the box, however, is and should be, a symbol of everyone in the dojo's goals and determination to train, and to do the best they can, together, as a group. The bow is an affirmation of, and a paying of respect to these things.

By claiming that the "wooden box" doesn't deserve respect, is, in fact, showing a lack of understanding of one of the very core principles of the practice of kendo as a martial art. Respectfully, the sensei in this case should have a better understanding of the principle in order to explain this correctly to students.

Hamish

[ben]

I found a kami-dana in the rubbish in Japan once. It wasn't a little one either, it had three doors and an east and west wing. And it was brand new, still in plastic. I could never work why someone would discard something like that.
b

[KhawMengLee]

I found a kami-dana in the rubbish in Japan once. It wasn't a little one either, it had three doors and an east and west wing. And it was brand new, still in plastic. I could never work why someone would discard something like that.

I hope you didn't pick it up and take it home :eek:


On topic of discarded holy items.

In Thailand(or around the area) you will see in all the gift and antique shops buddha heads(eg like a broken piece from a statue etc.) or parts of statues. It is better not to buy these.

They may well be antiques but it is very bad luck to buy them. This being that when a statue of Buddha or Any other God is made(eg.Kuan Yin/Kwannon aka Goddess of Mercy. Songoku/Hanoman aka. Monkey God...yes the same fella from Monkey Magic) it is a religious process. When the priest "feels" that something is "wrong" with a statue it is broken up and buried. Now the wrongness they feel is explained as something evil or bad about the statue...or maybe the artist just buggered it up.

People will dig up the broken pieces to sell in the tourist market. Now if you don't believe in this "mumbo jumbo" then go ahead and buy this stuff. Otherwise better leave well enough alone.

MENG
:D

[ben]

Of course I took it home, are you crazy? Do you how much those things are worth? (well neither do I, but I'm sure it's a lot). You should have seen the Customs Officers when I brought it back! Cost a bit in excess baggage too.

Personally I draw a distinction between religion and superstition. Rather than seeming cursed, I felt like it was gift waiting there for me.
:)
b

[KhawMengLee]

Then again you could be right;)

[Bane2871]

Ray Wylie Hubbard said it best:

"Buddha wasn't a Christian, but Jesus would have made a good Buddhist"

[KhawMengLee]

Heh, Jesus wasn't christian either;) That movement wasn't formed until much later...

[toreisu]

When I taught English in Japan, I had a student who was a Jehovah's Witness. I learned that when other students learned kendo or judo in gym class, he had to sit out or do an alternative activity because his religion forbids him from paticipating in any traditional Japanese cultural or religious activity.

[Hagakure]

I have noticed the coralation between Kendo and religion, but all things that teach (or INTEND TO HAVE TAUGHT) people mutual tolerance and respect are essentially related. It is foolish that people bicker over which name of God is best. If anything, Kendo teaches us to be united, as if grants us a sense of camaderie with our fellow Kendokas.

[Confound]

I really hesitate to read anything religious into kendou. it worries me when the line between religion and budo becomes blurry. there is a psychological element to studying a budo, and one may sometimes aspire to draw spiritual lessons from it as well. however, I find myself wondering why people need to find some kind of spiritual enlightenment in kendou?

It seems like every other person I've met who studied martial arts was looking for some 'Saul on the road to Tarsus' moment, where the great light shines down from heaven, chastises them for living a bad life, and offers an alternative. Lucky Saul, or should we just call him Paul?

c

[David J]

You meet some weird people Confound. Everyone I've met does a martial art cos a) its fun b) they want to improve themselves and/or c) they like hitting people (or learning how to at least).....

<rei>

Dave

[lewis]

Confound,

I think people look for it there because a) they realize it is missing and b) the media tells them they can find it there. Unfortunately, if they are following the media, it shows just how in the dark they are.

[munenmuso]

when i joined a kendo club i wasn't there for the religion and the rituals.but i know there will be a lot of it.i undestand that it is part of the etiquette as deeply rooted in the japanese psyche but nevertheless a subject of opinions for foreigners.at first it is kinda weird for me to do all those zennish stuff which is deeply embodied in kendo but later i realised that this is a vital form of discipline that one way or another moulds the character of a kendoka.

it is said that zen is not a religion per se, it is a way of doing things.that's why it is not inconflict with shintoism in japan.in fact it co-exist and it teaches an individual to do greater things by meditation and meditated actions.One can be a religious christian,and the other can be a christian religiously by following the fundamentals of zen.it is like a water that always take the shape of its container. so i believe that there will never be a conflict of any religion with zen.

in the first place,when you join a kendo club they never asked your religion or there were any bias agains it or perhaps asked you to sign any paper for conversion of religion.

[rottunpunk]

i know people havn't used this thread for a bit, but i just found it and thought i might share...

i'm a Christian too, and its quite scary doing something that has a basis in buddhism

but, for myself, i made a pledge to make God my first and not Iai or Kendo, so when i bow i pray to God and not 'shomen' or my sword. some might consider this to be disrespectful, but i would be breaking a commendment of God if i bowed to a plastic idol.

one thing i've noticed in myself though (and was picked up by the translator in this years MJER summer seminar)... i dont want to kill tekki unless i imagine him as being a demon or something, because i have no desire to kill another human being.

perhaps if i wasn't a Christian i would be a better Iaidoka or Kendoka in a sense as my mentality would be different.

Someone once told me about a Karate person who could kick a wall down before he touched it becouse he was deeply into the spiritual side of the art-that scares me, i never want to get like that...

:p

[KhawMengLee]

RPUNK:

Its all about respect. I am a Buddhist and fortunately my religion/philosophy does not restrict me in any way. For example, I can pray in a Church, Mosque or Synagogue and ask any of those Deities for blessings and it would not reflect/bear on me badly as a Buddhist(though it may if it was vice-versa).

When you bow to the Shomen, it is not worship. Nor are you surrendering yourself to the Idol. It is just paying respect.

Its like if you walk into a muslim home, you can say, "hello, and shake hands"(western greeting which is fine) or you can do it the Muslim way and say "Asahlah Malekum" clasp both their hands with both of yours and then bring your hands up to your heart.

It doesn't mean you are worshipping Islam but you are just paying respects in their way.



one thing i've noticed in myself though (and was picked up by the translator in this years MJER summer seminar)... i dont want to kill tekki unless i imagine him as being a demon or something, because i have no desire to kill another human being.

perhaps if i wasn't a Christian i would be a better Iaidoka or Kendoka in a sense as my mentality would be different.

Heh, this didn't stop Richard the Lionheart from butchering over 3000 Turkish prisoners and their families when he realised it would be too much trouble to keep them as prisoners.

If Christianity makes lousy warriors then the Crusades never happened, eh?

I think the point was whatever motivates you to win or act. Some people use the "killer instinct" creed, like a lot of sportsmen do. Look at ice hockey players...I don't think many of them are psyched up with the thought of "I must better myself in this match!" but hey, whatever works for you.

The point made by visualising the opponent as a demon etc. is to motivate you to push yourself and overcome the problem. But don't just use that as a catalyst, you can use God as a motivation as well.


i'm a Christian too, and its quite scary doing something that has a basis in buddhism

Don't be scared, we Buddhists have yet to kill in the name of God, invade peaceful cultures and force our ideology on them, burn people alive at the stake, molest little children and the use our enourmous wealth to get the best lawyers in the land to silence them, etc...actually, as you can see we are a bit behind in the religious progress table...

Looking at Christianity's track record I should be the one who should be scared. But I don't judge people/things by their religious beliefs/attachments. It is natural to fear what you don't understand but it is really stupid to judge with ignorance.

PEACE
MENG

[saki_wooah]

this topic is quite a delicate thing to talk about

im buddhist too and i think that kendo does not have a strong link with religion as some people think!

1- There is no God or Teacher that teaches us about the philosophy of life in the dojo (your Sensei's job is not to indicate you the best roads in life, but rather the best roads in Kendo... If he is, it's more outside the dojo; so it's not kendo related).

2- When bowing, as many people said it before, it's more respect than anything else. It's like saying hello, or thank you. Hmmm as i'm thinking about it.... what are we exactly bowing at?

3- When you start doing kendo, you should concentrate on it. This mean that you shouldn't worry about your religion and your life. Does anyone really care? Anyway, I don't think you're that worried about your religion when playing any sport. Kendo won't ban you from heaven! Are you really following every rule of your religion? Who have not lied in his own life? Relax! It's only a sport or an activity. I'm buddhist so I can bow or pray as much as I want to anything and it won't really matter. In the bible, it's written that "you should not worship another god and come for refuge under God". Kendo is not a god, neither is your sensei or your dojo. We're not saying prayers or doing any ceremony to invoke spirits, etc during practice!

Nyway, I think I talk a lot nonstop so i'll just shut myself and go to sleep ^-^

[nodachi]

Why should one be afraid of something that has its foundation in a religion other than the one they practice? Take some time to talk to open minded, more elderly people (or shall I say more experienced people : ) ) who have spent a good deal of their lives studying religion. And I don't mean just studying two or three religions. I mean people who have studied A LOT of religions. They will tell you that most religions have the same fundamental ideals and even the famous, ever so important books of each religion sound very similar.

Besides, what harm is their in experiencing other religions somewhat in one's life. It will broaden your mind and help you redirect your spiritual life if it needs redirecting. Or, it will strengthen your faith.

And I agree with saki-wooah, you aren't practicing religion here, you are doing Kendo. I think that if you are looking for a spiritual connection in Kendo you can find it, but if you aren't, you will still enjoy it for what it is... just Kendo.

There's my ramblings... take it or leave it for what its worth...

[David J]

Firstly Rottunpunk, thankyou for being honest enough to admit you find Buddhism scary. However, I can honestly say that I'm sure that you are only scared through a lack of information / understanding.

Some thoughts....

1) The 8 Buddhist precepts are very similar to the ten commandments in your religion, including one against killing any being (not just humans).

2) As others have said elsewhere, the bow, in eastern cultures indicates respect, not worship. You are respecting your sword, not treating it as a god. Bowing to the Shomen, or as I enter or leave the dojo is a way of me respecting the tradition of Kendo, and being thankful for being able to practice it.

3) Christ and Buddha taught very similar things. There is a wealth of published material that links the two as "brothers".

4) Meditation is (especially at the minimal level found in Kendo) primarily a method for clearing the mind. You will also find references to it being practiced in Christian, Hindu and many other religions.

5) You dont "worship" anything as a Buddhist, not even Buddha. Buddha was just a bloke who found out a way of living happily, and passed it on to others. Anything else is trimmings.

6) What is "your mentality" as a Christian? Doesnt this include respect and hard work? Sounds like the basis of a good Kendoka to me.

7) Someone actively living in society as a "true Christian" would be living a very similar life to someone living as a "true Buddhist".

8) Dont get waylaid by the "kicking down walls" story. This is not Buddhism. The "spiritual" aspect that most Buddhists find in Kendo is simply as a form of moving meditation (You can meditate by walking down a road, eating your breakfast, whatever). You dont get "special powers" from Buddhism. Its not Tekken.

I would agree with Saki that there is very little religion IN Kendo, but some find that it works as a form of practice of their own religion.

Hope this helps. Please take a little time to read some stuff on the internet and find out a little more before making up your mind about us ;)

<rei>

Dave

[rottunpunk]

thanks for your reply's peeps

i guess you are right, i cant really make any comments about buddhism when i dont really understand it properly

i know the use of bowing is out of respect, but the way i was toaught it was that you are thanking the 'good spirits' and your sword. under Christian teaching, all spirits are ungodly apart from the holy spirit, and on a personal note, (probably cuz im a westerner and dont understand) i dont see why i should thank a lump of metal, when it is me who controls it

but i will take your advice into consideration-thankyou
:P

[KhawMengLee]

and on a personal note, (probably cuz im a westerner and dont understand) i dont see why i should thank a lump of metal, when it is me who controls it

The same question as why you pay thanks to a lump of wood in the shape of the cross or to an entity which has not been proven to exist, for a life for which you are master of. When you put it in words like that it seems too simple don't it?

The question here is beliefs and culture. To the Japanese the sword was the soul or reflects the soul of the samurai. We Chinese also have a similar thought about all blades including your steaknife and kitchenknife. All blades have the nature to kill or cut and we respect that and not take it lightly.

This may sound like hocus pocus and mumbo jumbo but blades we believe can contain an entity. What it is, we cannot define but we will treat it with respect.

In Malaysia our cultural weapon is the wavy bladed dagger called the Kriss. You will hear many legends and stories about these blades, from them shaking to warn the owners of theives and danger to them having the ability to make wounds that don't heal. Whatever it is, you will still see today that everyone treats this weapon with respect.

Also a blade in the old days could be the one thing between you and death. Think of tales from the west, like of Excalibur or tales of after the battle where soldiers kiss their blades. Its hard to describe here but I suppose its like thanking it for saving you.


PEACE
MENG

[Charlie]

I can see where Punk's coming from. Like Buddhists, Christians spend a lot of time trying to divorce themselves from things that might corrupt their spiritual walk. So when you encounter something that might contradict what you're trying to accomplish as a religious person when leading a religious life, you give it a wide berth. There's too many distractions in the world as it is, and I'm not just talking about temptation and sin, I'm talking about the kinds of spiritual pitfalls that confront all of us.

I'm a Christian myself, and I understand what yer going through. Personally, I think if someone taught you you were bowing to spirits, you either misunderstood that person, or that's just that person's interpretation, or it's a mistake of some kind. My understanding of kendo is that it's concepts, while rooted in Shinto, Buddhism and Confucianism, are secular, and that they may - and perhaps should - be injected with your own spiritual beliefs. Make 'em your own, my friend. Of course, some Christians don't see any harm in dabbling in cross-training, as it were. Like some Christians borrow from Wicca to make their Christianity more, I dunno, "earth-centered" and "pre-industrial." Or from Zen, or from Buddhism, transcendental meditation, what have you. The Catholic church in particular has a surprisingly liberal record of encouraging dialogue and sharing with other faiths - in fact, last time I looked it up, such a thing was policy!

Anyway, I think it's cool that you're bringing these things up. Stay centered and you'll be fine, you know? God bless you all,

[Charlie]

P.S. Oh! And I'm curious as to what your stance toward violence is. Richard the Lionheart is not the best example of a Christian warrior, eh? Personally, I believe that there's justifiable violence in my faith, particularly in the protection of others. Jesus said, "I am sending you out like a sheep amidst wolves. Therefore be as cunning as serpents and as innocent as doves." Tough contradiction, but it's the path we chose, and I think that speaks to the fact that sometimes - heck, often times - you have to put yourself into uncomfortable situations.

[KhawMengLee]

The Catholic church in particular has a surprisingly liberal record of encouraging dialogue and sharing with other faiths - in fact, last time I looked it up, such a thing was policy!

Agreed, look at St Patrick converting the Irish and letting them retain many Irish traditions, seen especially in their artworks and religious pieces. Also, the same with the South Americans.

PEACE
MENG

[Charlie]

Too bad this hasn't always been the case. D'oh! But anyway...

Check this out (just for grins):

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03028b.htm

"There may be some hesitation in taking the highly coloured portrait of Buddhist tradition as the exact representation of the original, but Buddha may be credited with the qualities of a great and good man. The records depict him moving about from place to place, regardless of personal comfort, calm and fearless, mild and compassionate, considerate towards poor and rich alike, absorbed with the one idea of freeing all men from the bonds of misery, and irresistible in his manner of setting forth the way of deliverance. In his mildness, his readiness to overlook insults, his zeal, chastity, and simplicity of life, he reminds one not a little of St. Francis of Assisi."

And:

"Between Buddhism and Christianity there are a number of resemblances, at first sight striking.

"The Buddhist order of monks and nuns offers points of similarity with Christian monastic systems, particularly the mendicant orders. There are moral aphorisms ascribed to Buddha that are not unlike some of the sayings of Christ. Most of all, in the legendary life of Buddha, which in its complete form is the outcome of many centuries of accretion, there are many parallelisms, some more, some less striking, to the Gospel stories of Christ."

[Charlie]

P.S. this doesn't mean I'm advocating some sort of hybrid of Christianity and Buddhism, just pointing out some neat similarities. If you read that whole text, you'll get some pretty strictly drawn differences as well.

[saki_wooah]

The main difference between those two are: Chritians believe in God and Buddhists try to achieve Supreme Enlightement like Buddha, but they don't believe in any God but more a phiolosophy and representation of the World.... It looks a lil bit the same but they still have big differences

[rottunpunk]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee


The same question as why you pay thanks to a lump of wood in the shape of the cross or to an entity which has not been proven to exist, for a life for which you are master of. When you put it in words like that it seems too simple don't it?



just for the record i am a penticostal so i dont bow to crosses cuz that technically would be idol worship too

(Habbakuk 2 describes why we shouldnt make or bow down to man made statues etc.-its because they cant answer us bak, but God is real and living and can)

but i see that your point about the different cultures is a valid one, kissing the sword would be considered the same as bowing to it, but i wouldn't do that either-id get all oil nd blood over my face, and urghh all those germs-hehe :D

charlie my friend, my thought on violence is this, turn the other cheek, then hit em bak-haha only jokin

basically, even if i do get fired up-id rather sort problems out with words than fistycuffs, but if i had to resort to it-inorder to protect my future law career i'd use minimal violence in accordance with the relevent case law

:p

[Charlie]

Nice!

[ronin]

I feel kendo can re-define your spiritual awareness, the exercises by helping your body, also help your mental/spiritual state.
you become more in tune with your surroundings more alert, mmore in tune with the spirits of the place.And therefore more in touch with your inner self an dyour true will.
Or as Aleister Crowley says 'THELEMA'

[JSchmidt]

"Or as Aleister Crowley says 'THELEMA'"

Look Ma!..A huge can of worms!!

Jakob

[Confound]

Did someone mention Alastair Crowley? I think I laughed my bum off. Hold on a minute, I have to go find it.

c

[wutian]

I think this is all crap people kendo is just a sport. you dont see people bowing in football. Out with the old in with the new thats what i say.. (anyone who's read my other posts will understand why im laughing really hard now) he he

now thats comedy!

[saki_wooah]

What we meant in your other post was: you cannot completly find ''Enlightement'' in kendo... It may help you but there is also other things! And Here, we're arguing about: why isn't kendo related to religion, or convincing ppl that bowing is not any religion sign! Bowing is only saying: Thank You for your teaching and not You are my god! Won't you people understand?

[KhawMengLee]

I think this is all crap people kendo is just a sport. you dont see people bowing in football. Out with the old in with the new thats what i say..

When mourning the loss of someone sportsmen place a black armband to signify it. It is a sign of showing respect and thanks or sympathy for the lost one.

Boxer's and kickboxers do the same with the touching of the gloves. Another sign of respect.

Bowing is the same thing...respect. It is also to say thanks to an opponent or friend.

Kendo has traditions, and bowing is one of them, it makes this both a sport and a martial art.

Being new to kendo wutian, I wouldn't be making proclamations like this until you've tried it for a while...

[James]

Originally posted by ronin
I
Or as Aleister Crowley says 'THELEMA'
And let's not forget 'LOUISE'

[stinkyKote]

Originally posted by rottunpunk


just for the record i am a penticostal so i dont bow to crosses cuz that technically would be idol worship too



So does that mean you don't bow to the shomen in the dojo?:confused:

[wutian]

i completly agree with the respect thing i was just making a joke. trying to lightin things up alil',

[bukowski]

Originally posted by ben
I am interested to know from people on the forum their experience of the following:

Have you ever experienced conflict between the practice of kendo (including etiquette) and your own, or someone else in your dojo's, religious beliefs? What has been the outcome?

...or the positive corollary of that question...

Have you ever found a surprising synergy between yours/others' beliefs and your kendo practice?

...or finally...

Have your religious or spiritual beliefs been shaped by kendo?

The potential for this thread to become incendiary is high (moderators have your red pencils ready! ;)). Therefore please at all times be respectful and try as much as possible to share your own experience rather than just make comments on others'.

:)
b

Around the time that I dropped religion entirely, I began Kendo. In fact, I chose Kendo practice over church. It never felt like a difficult choice.

The truth, though, is that anything eastern carries the stigma of being "un-Christian." Religion, specifically western religion, holds a lot of power in this country, and things that don't seem to blend with Christian ideals (though the ones who say this generally don't know what those ideas are) are treated poorly. I have seen at least one person (a 10 year old, no less, its very hard to get junior students at my dojo) stop coming to practice because their parents felt that meditation was in conflict with Christianity.

However, I have found incredibly parellels between the concepts in Kendo and those taught by the Russian acting masters. The majority of Kendo concepts exist in acting.

[KATSUJIN]

well there was a small thing that happened in my dojo...s few of my juniors...awhile back actually quit kendo because without finding out or asking, they thought that bowing to kamiza meant that they had to give up their own religion and convert to shintoism or something like that....weird...even after clarifying with them....they still said they felt uncomfortable and did not want to come back..worse of all.....when the new beginners came in...they went and repeated their version of this so-called religion switching and made some new guys and gals leave....

[Haowen]

If those new students would be so easily swayed by the words of others over what their own sensei tells them, then you're better off without them. Did this happen in Singapore?

[KATSUJIN]

yap....it happened in my school club.....weird isn't it???

[Haowen]

I grew up in Singapore... I notice this strange cultural thing about certain segments of the population (not everyone, but quite enough people to make a strong impression):

1. They have this irresistible urge to try to forcibly convince other people to the perceived majority way of thinking, even if it's none of their business.

2. They have this tendency to listen to whatever rubbish they are told and do whatever the "groupthink" is, instead of checking out the facts and forming their own opinions.

It's like an eerie B-grade horror movie :)

[Tato]

Not my onions but...

Haowen, what you said in point 2 is valid for 95% of human kind, if you don't think so, just look around you at the ways that media builds public opinion.

And by the way, unless you have a strong will this will also happen to you on religion related issues.

This is an incredible minefield. The fact that we don't have a large flame war on this tread It's a sign of the health and cultural flexibility of the kendo community. It's great.

Rei

[rottunpunk]

Originally posted by stinkyKote


So does that mean you don't bow to the shomen in the dojo?:confused:

sorry i didnt reply sooner...

yeah i bow to shomen because its expected of me-if i didnt do it correctly in my iai grading i'd fail straight away

but when i do it im just going through a motion

in my head i concentrate on not bowing to shomen but focus on my God

[nodachi]

This is just a rhetorical question so feel free to ignore this, but...

The Japanese bow all the time to each other. It is a greeting. Granted a low bow is more respectful than a shorter one, but it's still a greeting. So why do so many people go off the deep end and think that they are going against their religion or have to abandon it to do Kendo? It just doesn't make sense to me that people think such things over a greeting. A bow, a wave hello, whatever, I know that a lot of it is done out of respect for each other and the art, etc, but a greeting is a greeting...

[mingshi]

I have an unconscious uncomfortable-ness towards performing Rei on the floor... The stand-up version of Rei is fine. At least it exists in the real world (okay, for Japanese). But the "on-the-floor" is a bit over-doing...

Maybe because in the Chinese tradition (I can't help associate with this), a bow with knees on the floor is only for a peasant towards a deity, or an emperor/ high-ranking government official. In the 19th Century when the Europeans arrived Imperial China for trade, the merchants (or whomever) rejected the tradition of bowing (which, towards the Emperor, one should kneel down, bow/knock their head on the floor 3 times, stand up, kneel, knock... Namely the etiquette of "3 Kneel 9 kowtow"). That's one of the reasons why the Europeans were called barbaric, having no respect to the government etc.

I don't know how often do the Japanese bow to each other on the floor nowadays. When you get a chance to watch documentaries about China, pay attention to those about Tibet or any mountain-range-with-temple-on-top... You will see a lot of bowing/kowtow -- to buddist/taoist statues. I can never detach bowing on the floor with this kind of cult rituals.

A dojo is meant to be a place of sacret place too. It is (literally) part of the temple. It's like, when you enter a Catholic church, you take off your hat as a sense of respect. I skip the praying and dripping-holy-water part because I'm don't believe I need to do those things. So taking off shoes, and bowing on entering/leaving a dojo (towards Shomen) should be the same -- based on respecting the place. It's not like the place is a toilet and you can just come in and go whenever you like. But bowing to the Kamiza/Shinzen --is another question. Do you know what the Japanese Prime Minister does every year in the Yasakuni shrine?

Rei to Kamiza.

[KhawMengLee]

You will see a lot of bowing/kowtow -- to buddist/taoist statues. I can never detach bowing on the floor with this kind of cult rituals.

Very informative mingshi but please, try not to refer to us buddhists or taoists as a cult. Its not as if its a new idea/religion/philosophy adopted by a few koresh type yahoos;).

Remember Christianity was seen in the same light before it gained popularity with the romans/greeks.

I just get peeved when people refer to non-christian religions as cult or pagan. It reminds me of this idiot in my University's Christian fellowship club who came up to me and said, "Any in a religion not embracing Christ worships the devil."
************************************************

As for the whole bowing issue, sigh....why not? The way I see it most religions have the same goal and moral standpoints. Cultural aspects may be different but the core elements are the same.

The Christian god and Jesus, as far as I know, is benevolent. So how can they send the billions of non-christians out there to hell just because they don't worship them?

Just as you bowing to shomen, its respect. Its not like you are gonna sacrifice life to it. All the philosophy which kendo has is closely related to Buddhism. So what then, you won't go into chudan because it is the water kamae and related to the buddhist/taoist proverb of being calm like a pool of water reflecting the moon. And a benevolent God will not send you to hell for this....jeez...some christians make it like bowing to shomen is commiting murder.

PEACE
MENG

[ben]

I've seen old Japanese have floor-bowing competitions when greeting each other - who ever comes up for air first is the loser. It's pretty cute to watch this kind of fierce struggle to be the most humble and self-effacing. As Nodachi said, it's just a greeting. I also saw once an 60+ year old woman, only 1-dan in kendo, bow very reverently towards her own men before putting it on. This was quite poignant because she was about to do asa-geiko with the local police, most of whom were either younger, stronger, bigger or 6 dans more experienced than her. She was literally placing faith in her men to protect her from a severe beating! And she did this every morning.

Bowing can have a religious aspect, but it can also have many shades of meaning: "hello", "please", "thank you", "wow!", etc.

The big difference between the Japanese religions (Buddhism, Shintoism) and the 'Western' religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) is that whereas the former are non-exclusive, the latter are exclusive: i.e. you can be Buddhist + Shinto + whatever-you-like, but you can't be Christian + Muslim, or Jewish + Muslim. More's the pity. Especially since these three faiths are worshipping what is historically the same God.

Speaking from my own perspective, I think right now the world needs less exclusivity and more tolerance. Much could be learned from the Japanese attitude to religion in this sense.

One final thing: the Kagoshima Junshin (Catholic girls' convent school) Naginata Club is renowned as being one of the strongest in Kyushu. In the dojo, instead of a Shinto kamidama they have a statue of the Virgin Mary holding the baby Jesus which they bow to as "kamiza". Most of the girls who attend the school also consider themselves Buddhist and/or Shinto as well as Christian.

b

[BigG]

Having chipped into this thread seemingly quite late (and it does make a fascinating read) so many contributions and beliefs.

I am an agnostic (I hope that this belief causes no offence) and consider kendo to embody what i would describe as the 'humanist' principles that underpin most faiths ... those being (in societal terms) respect, courtessy and a light dusting of honour and self respect.

Although we are not united by our religions, we are by the enjoyment that each of us gets from Kendo.

BigG

(if i am ignorant or some how manage to cause offece, it wasn't intended that way and please shoot me ;o) )

[stinkyKote]

Originally posted by rottunpunk


yeah i bow to shomen because its expected of me-if i didnt do it correctly in my iai grading i'd fail straight away

but when i do it im just going through a motion

in my head i concentrate on not bowing to shomen but focus on my God

Hmm.. well, if you ask me, if you're just going through the motion then you are not doing it correcty at all. Rei isn't just an empty motion, it's a sign of your respect for your dojo, and your willingness to learn what your sensei has to teach.

Just like kamae isn't just the way you stand, it's your whole mental attitude. I once read somewhere that 'Kendo begins and ends with Rei' ... do you really think you should be studying kendo and iaido if you don't really have any respect for Rei?

I wouldn't make a very good catholic if I went to church just to hear reading from the bible, and only pretended to kneel and pray when it was asked of me-

kendo has it's traditions for a reason, if you're going to pick which ones you like and which ones you don't you might as well not show up -

[nodachi]

I was under the impression from friends of mine that are Buddhist that one of the reasons they like it so much is that a major part of how they were taught Buddhism is that you take what works for you and follow it and you leave behind that which doesn't work for you. Since kendo is related to Buddhism, wouldn't the same apply. Hence, we still have to rei, but we can just go through the motions of it if it isn't quite something we want to fervently adhere to.

Just a random thought...

[Hyaku]

Originally posted by stinkyKote

Just like kamae isn't just the way you stand, it's your whole mental attitude. I once read somewhere that 'Kendo begins and ends with Rei' ... do you really think you should be studying kendo and iaido if you don't really have any respect for Rei?
........

Not just kendo/iaido.

In Japan we teach children that everything begins and ends with a bow. Not particularly religious.... Its mutual respect for each other. To the place we are in etc. Sometimes it has religious conviction in the fact that we bow to god or the dear departed. Most dojos follow Shinto not Buddhism. But this not mean we must feel a religious obligation in bowing

I work for a buddhist sect. We regularly clearly teach that we should not take the life of person or animal.

One of priest I teach Kenjutsu to does it clearly as a means of self education and self improvement and has no problems with his religious beliefs.

Westerners are all so set in religious beliefs. Japan is very pragmatic when it come to this.

Hyaku

[Atama]

Ok well this threads been a pretty interesting read...so here my view.

I totally understand the confusion that christians of people from other religious background have with the whole bowing thang, and in the past I myself have had problems with this issue not in kendo but in aikido but as I learned more of the japanese culture I came to understand it is merely a sign of respect, a thankyou. I feel that when you bow it should be with a feeling of gratitude and respect for the martial art you are participating in.

_____________________________

quote: most of the girls who attend this school consider themselves buddhist and/or shinto as well as christian.......ben.

If this is true ben then they are only fooling themselves as it is not posible to be a christian and also follow doctrines of another religion.

[David J]

Originally posted by nodachi
I was under the impression from friends of mine that are Buddhist that one of the reasons they like it so much is that a major part of how they were taught Buddhism is that you take what works for you and follow it and you leave behind that which doesn't work for you.

Errr....not really. While its true that Buddha himself said not to take as read anything he said, but to test it out personally, its not designed as a "pick-and-mix" religion. If you were to, say, reject the precept about abstaining from killing, or the bit about not earning from immoral means, you'd be stretching it a bit to claim to be a Buddhist. I think your friends may be referring to the fact that Buddhism is not prescriptive - there's no "Thou shallt not"s for one thing.

And Atama - as far as I know, there's nothing in Christianity or Buddhism that make them exclusive from each other - feel free to correct me, I know little about Christianity really.

<rei>

Dave

[Atama]

From what I know of buddhism (which ain't all that much) it reffers to re-incarnation which can continue through several lives untill your soul becomes enlightened (correct me if i'm wrong). In christianty that dosen't happen (I could go on but i ain't a preacher). I'm sure if I had read more on buddhism I could tell you more of the differences and vice versa.

You know how it is though ....the guy who chases 2 rabbits catches neither.....its all relevant.

I still say you can't be truly of 2 religions , thoes who say they are, are just fooling themselves

[Tato]

Religion is a personal choice.

I'm not willing to discuss here my religious orientation, I belive that this is one of the most personal things. But I have been raised in a catholic environement, so I'm aware of the subtilities and tolerances/intolerances of this sect of christianity. Just point out that the Catholic church is right now quite flexible in accepting other religions.

I also was raised in a quite strict enviroment, where almost every human relation starts whit "please" ("por favor", "s'il vous plait") and ends whit a "thanks" ("gracias", "merci"). I don't percive any collision whit rei in kendo, for me rei it's just the same thing.

In my opinion symbols (and rei is a symbol as well as a handshake) have the meaning that we want to put on them. Every one is free to decide if rei to kamiza is religous or is a respect sign, just a personnal matter that can't be imposed by other people views.

Rei.

[mingshi]

Sorry about the cult thing Meng. Actually I'm not referring Buddhism as cult, but rather those who throw coins into the tank in front of the mud statues and believe that they are accumulating morality for their next-life. Can't think of another word for this.

I guess we have to detached the meaning of Rei to Dojo from Rei to Kamiza. Not sure if I've got the terms right here, but paying respect to the place that you practice, is completely different from bowing to someone else's god. Ever notice that, traditionally, Kamidana (the "box") should be facing South, Kamiza (upper seat) is the side of the Rising Sun (East)? I don't think people outside Japan will get this one right. But would you consider this as part of the etiqutte? Or is this pure superstition?

If it is about pay respect to the dojo, a place of Do, why bother put a Kamidana there at all?

BEN: "I also saw once an 60+ year old woman, only 1-dan in kendo, bow very reverently towards her own men before putting it on."----- Yeah, I was wondering about that too... Do you reckon should we all do that? Should we all follow this bowing ritual to pay respect to our equipment? What is the symbolic significance of the bow?

If it is one of the many Kendo teachings, part of the Japanese tradition which transmits through Kendo, I'm pretty alright with that. If I am doing it, it won't be as simple as that because it's not my way to respect my equipment anymore. It'll be like, SHOWING respect in its most physically way, going through the motion etc. I'd rather take my bogu home and clean it as a way to respect it.

The Rei in "xxx begins in Rei and ends in Rei" does not only mean the bow --here it's used as a noun which means respect/etiquette. It's also a very Confucian term.

Arr...... getting too confusing.... I've no idea what I'm talking about. Forget what I'm saying...

[KhawMengLee]

No worries Mingshi;) :D

By BEN

The big difference between the Japanese religions (Buddhism, Shintoism) and the 'Western' religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) is that whereas the former are non-exclusive, the latter are exclusive: i.e. you can be Buddhist + Shinto + whatever-you-like, but you can't be Christian + Muslim, or Jewish + Muslim. More's the pity. Especially since these three faiths are worshipping what is historically the same God.

I agree with what Ben said here. It reminds me of the time I was in High School and went to communion. (note: it was an Anglican school and during Wednesday evenings we had to, no matter what faith, go to Chapel.) if you weren't of the Christian faith you had to sit in quiet contemplation.

This being my first communion and as it was not a 'sin'(for me) to join in, I stepped right up. I remember going , "what the hell is this?" as I was passed the host/wafer and since everyone was walking to the alter I just followed on past the Canon. Once at the alter I saw a goblet of wine...and never one to pass up a good drink I grabbed the goblet and gulped down the contents(which was port, if I remember correctly).

Nevertheless, the Canon's resounding "OI!" still rings in my ears today.

************************************************
I also remember feeling very peaceful in that chapel and I have felt just the same in the chapel at Christ Church, in Oxford. Though, Westminister Abbey felt really gloomy and morbid. When I say peaceful I mean it as a spiritual thing, its hard to describe in words but its would be like saying I felt secure and comfortable, like I knew my place in this world and I felt happy.

The point here is that this feeling in my heart is not just limited to a Buddhist temple for me. I have felt it as I sat and watched the sunset on my board out in the surf, in church, temples and even on the highway driving.

I think that all the people who worry about bowing to the shomen because it is a sin are thinking too much about what they think is wrong and are not feeling with their hearts.

Words preaching are just words.
Rules are guidelines.
Rules are not final.
Love never lies to us.
And the heart always speaks the truth.

The way I see it then, don't worry so much about what the rules say is wrong but what your heart tells you. Do you feel "evil" in your dojo or bowing to the Shomen?

sorry for the preaching
MENG

[ben]

Mingshi: The bowing to the equipment thing is quite complex I think.

As a Westerner my first impression of what she was doing was that she (a sentient being) was asking the armour (an inanimate object) for some kind of favour. Of course looked at like this (as someone mentioned earlier in this thread I think) it looks a bit silly. It's just a bit of metal and cotton.

What I think bowing does however is prepare you to become integrated with your equipment. All sportspeople would agree that feeling yourself separate from the shinai/racquet/club/bat/etc you wield will limit your ability to wield it well. It must be "a part of you" or "an extension of your own body".

I think the Japanese tradition of bowing to your equipment helps achieve this effect: you are accepting these pieces of equipment 'into' your body in a psychic sense, into the intimate space around your body and so they move with you, as if they *are* you.

It can also be a way of bowing to yourself, to your own tradition in a sense, since your armour contains all the sweat and exertion of your years of training. If bowing to the kamiza respresents the larger tradition of kendo, and bowing to your sensei represents the living tradition, then bowing to your armour is like honouring your own efforts over the years: "here we go again!"

b

[jfluh9]

This is a great thread topic Ben!

As a Christian I have my beliefs, and I respect all others beliefs. I was attracted to kendo because of its' deeper aspects. Mokuso (spelling?) is the best thing that I have ever done. during that time I am relaxing, but I am also praying. My prayers are about all kinds of things, but usually they are about kendo. I find this very comforting to be able to do this right before practice.

Kendo is also about respect, perseverance, hard work, self-improvement. These are all good Christian values (that sounds cliche, but it's true), and participating in kendo has already helped me to improve myself as a person.

[kendomushi]

In shinto beliefs, virtually everything and anything has the potential to possess kami...... a term poorly translated to often mean "god." Shinto believes that all things have a force of being and should be respected for their own sake.
If you have ever felt moved by a stunning sun set, the beauty of a still lake, felt awe and humility visiting an ancient historical site...... then you have felt the kami present in these things.

[Nishi]

For those christians who also study kendo, I feel there is no real justification for kendo practice, only the ones we create. Christianity asks you to "put down your sword" and pick up "the word of God" as practice....

Christianity in its true message asks for love above all things...and reminds us to show that same love to our enemies, kendo asks you to send your enemeis to the next world...death and judgment are decisions reserved for God.

I struggled with this for quite some time, im still studying a bit of history regarding those samurai who converted to christianity, they appear to have justified training in budo without bushido but with christian principals somehow...they either became backward crusaders, killing for Christ, or resumed peaceful physical training without malicious intent, or put down bushido/sword altogether to follow the word of God, im not sure where this story goes yet as im still researching a little, but i think for those who study kendo, its very difficult to rationalize why we are learning these techniques.

My only justifications have been fitness, using a stick and not a sword, and fascination with this period of Japans history. To understand something, first look at its intent, then you'll see its nature. Im divided on kendo practice and Christianity, its to personal and sensitive.

P.S. My appoligize to anyone offended, this was just my expression of the topic, nothing more.

[jfluh9]

For those christians who also study kendo, I feel there is no real justification for kendo practice, only the ones we create. Christianity asks you to "put down your sword" and pick up "the word of God" as practice....

Christianity in its true message asks for love above all things...and reminds us to show that same love to our enemies, kendo asks you to send your enemeis to the next world...death and judgment are decisions reserved for God.

I struggled with this for quite some time, im still studying a bit of history regarding those samurai who converted to christianity, they appear to have justified training in budo without bushido but with christian principals somehow...they either became backward crusaders, killing for Christ, or resumed peaceful physical training without malicious intent, or put down bushido/sword altogether to follow the word of God, im not sure where this story goes yet as im still researching a little, but i think for those who study kendo, its very difficult to rationalize why we are learning these techniques.

My only justifications have been fitness, using a stick and not a sword, and fascination with this period of Japans history. To understand something, first look at its intent, then you'll see its nature. Im divided on kendo practice and Christianity, its to personal and sensitive.

P.S. My appoligize to anyone offended, this was just my expression of the topic, nothing more.


Jfluh here,

I am not replying to your post because I was offended. I feel that in some ways you may be misinformed. Kendo, and especially Iaido are the last resort to a confrontation.....yes these arts are teaching you how to dispatch someone, but only if your life was threatened. This isn't a very christian thing to say, but if I were living in feudal Japan and someone decides to try and take my head off, I'm not sure about you but I am going to defend myself.

Now I hope that I am not offending you, but if you think about kendo the way that you described it in your post than you had better quit now. Your never going to get anywhere if you hold back. Never once has the thought of putting someone to the sword crossed my mind since I have practiced either art. In Iaido you visualize an opponent so you can make the right cut at the right angle. I hope that I never have to use a sword for some ungodly reason. The same should go for you.

[kendomushi]

To ascribe modern morals and values to what is not a modern thing is foolish. If you see kendo as a modern sport, then what morals apply other than being fair and doing your best?
True the disciplines of kendo did grow out of warfare. Practitioners, whether Christian or not, were not simply trained killers dispensing some soft of divine justice. They were soldiers, retainers, and politicians. The sword was taken up to protect home and family, to dispatch threats, and to enforce the will of the ruling class. This is exactly what was done with military might in every government in history. To ascribe or find oneself in conflict with it over modern christian values (and if you care to study christianity you will find that many of its earliest roots grew from radicals who used violence to make their voices heard) is a pointless exercise.
Enjoy what you do for what it is. Practice to improve your body, spirit, and mind. If you think you actually are studying to go out and kill someone with a sword or ever plan to be so armed just in case - find something else to practice.

[jfluh9]

To ascribe modern morals and values to what is not a modern thing is foolish. If you see kendo as a modern sport, then what morals apply other than being fair and doing your best?
True the disciplines of kendo did grow out of warfare. Practitioners, whether Christian or not, were not simply trained killers dispensing some soft of divine justice. They were soldiers, retainers, and politicians. The sword was taken up to protect home and family, to dispatch threats, and to enforce the will of the ruling class. This is exactly what was done with military might in every government in history. To ascribe or find oneself in conflict with it over modern christian values (and if you care to study christianity you will find that many of its earliest roots grew from radicals who used violence to make their voices heard) is a pointless exercise.
Enjoy what you do for what it is. Practice to improve your body, spirit, and mind. If you think you actually are studying to go out and kill someone with a sword or ever plan to be so armed just in case - find something else to practice.

Kendomushi? Why do I have to be an inexperienced newb? Why cant I submit the kind of quality post that you can? It's just not fair.

[aru-ma]

Kendomushi? Why do I have to be an inexperienced newb? Why cant I submit the kind of quality post that you can? It's just not fair.

it comes with age and experience to come up with the stuff he just did, I'm not even close. :laugh:

[Nishi]

I was reluctant to make that post as you could imagine. As long as i study kendo and continue to learn about my own nature at the same time, i will continue.

As for "the way i described kendo" in my post, please read again, i gave a definition of modern morals in a non-modern practice..i cant define kendo, i can hardley perform kendo, but as i said "Im divided on kendo practice and Christianity, its to personal and sensitive", im not divided on kendo, and im not divided on Christianity, its one within the other that challenges me, however, I fully agree with Kendomushi regarding modern morals in a non-modern practice, and this has shed light upon the issue for me.(cheers)

I enjoy the sport and the freinds ive made, im fascinated by the roots of kendo...kendo has made me a better person in many ways, and im bewildered by its deeper lessons. Im sure im in it for the right reasons.

I could never take your advice and just quit kendo because my personal philosophy on this topic collided with yours jfluh9, on the contrary, i'll train much harder.

P.S. Again, these are just my personal opinions not directed toward anyones beliefs but my own...they mean nothing, please treat them as such.

[kendomushi]

I agree wholeheartedly that ones faith is and ought to be a very personal issue. The faith that is not fought out, argued to death, taken apart, and examined piece by piece is a hollow faith with a shakey foundation that is bound to fail the "believer" at some critical point in life.

Just to let people know what my background is, what has made me think the way I do it come from...
Developing and teaching active listening courses for outreach crisis hotlines at the age of 16.
Five years in the catholic seminary system studying every major religion and philosophy in the world.
Fifteen years as a military medic.
Four years as a computer geek.
Twenty years living outside my home country.
Fifteen years living in and learning about Japan.
Just over 10 years of kendo training.
A love of learning and history in particular that only gets stronger as I get older.
And those are just the good highlights. I could start several threads in general chat on the negative things that have also shaped my thinking. :p

[ben]

I was reluctant to make that post as you could imagine. As long as i study kendo and continue to learn about my own nature at the same time, i will continue.

Excellent comment David. It is honest and inquiring posts like yours that make KWF what it is.

There is another thread somewhere on KWF that deals with the issue of violence and kendo. We should none of us be too quick to deny that kendo's history, even its recent history, is bound up with some pretty violence, dodgy politics, and even the oppression of whole cultures. It is also conceivable (although finally unknowable) that some of the sensei we know as "legendary" may well have been involved in historical events of dubious repute.

David's posts reveal that he is able to grapple openly with paradox. As the saying goes, "From small doubt comes small enlightenment. From great doubt comes great enlightenment."

b

[ben]

...is bound up with some pretty violence, dodgy politics, and even... b

Should have been "violence and pretty dodgy politics". Obviously.
:emb:

b

[Nishi]

...for the record, im not a preacher, i do keep my beliefs to myself and rarley discuss them (thats why i was reluctant).... just in case anybody thought i would bless them if they ever said hello :laugh:

Okay, have a look at this, i dont know how to take it...at first i kinda giggled, but its for real...pretty interesting though.

http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/32.htm

Have fun with it, and post some comments....gotta love that portuguese collor hu?

[elfboy]

...for the record, im not a preacher, i do keep my beliefs to myself and rarley discuss them (thats why i was reluctant).... just in case anybody thought i would bless them if they ever said hello :laugh:

Okay, have a look at this, i dont know how to take it...at first i kinda giggled, but its for real...pretty interesting though.

http://www.iz2.or.jp/english/fukusyoku/busou/32.htm

Have fun with it, and post some comments....gotta love that portuguese collor hu?

That's very interesting - from what I know about Japanese history, which isn't too much, I thought that Christianity was looked down upon and its influence in supressed by the Japanese during this time period, and even a bit today, so I had no idea that Christianity had gone this far in reaching out to the samurai class. "Christian Samurai." Gotta love that. Though I am a Christian, I personally haven't seen any connections or conflicts between Kendo and Christianity. I guess both are completely different enough to allow them to stay in their own worlds. There are applications from Kendo that find paralells in Christianity however, such as the emphasis on respect and spirit, that I find interesting. I must say here's such a great aura of humanity and warmth in the dojo that I do find somewhat spiritual, not to mention exciting. Somebody here, I think Achilles, mentioned earlier Jesus's command that he who wants to protect his life should throw it away - and I suppose there are other teachings of his that can apply to the mental aspect of the art. So even though to me there are points that both Kendo and religion share and don't share, I do pray during mokuso.... "God, that men strike hurt!" :dead: :)

[Nishi]

Somthing I pulled off the net regarding my studies on the subject....
In case you where interested ...
________________________________
For the young samurai Protestant converts..., the radicalness of their choice of a Christian value system to replace the past one, was as much subject to their taste for their past positions and values as to a sense of dissatisfaction with them. Their estrangement from power and from the institutions that gave status meant that they had to build an intellectual structure which could restore their sense of identity and a new world within which they could succeed to authority. Christian samurai lent their strength to associate themselves with a value system that seemed to offer structural similarities to their past order, gave a meaningful order to the new world, and promised future success for the believer....
_________________________________

Fascinating!!!

[Mushin]

Truth. Truth has been here long before me and shall be around long after. So how can such as with limited permanence, as my mind, conceive of it?
Truth is something that you stumble across when on the road to something else. It will only be realized in a process of letting go and not of gain.
Any concept that can be held in mind, is by nature finite. What notions can you hold when galaxies break apart? What notion can you hold against infinity?

Empty your cup.
Take a step like it is your first.

[ian woods]

as a pagan (wicca) i have no prob with kendo but some of my coven do have
our main law is "and it harm none do what thou wilt(will)"they tend to think i am being "bad" cuz i hit other pep's with a "stick"
but i know i am not hitting them to harm them but to help me become a better pep's...

thanks
ian woods

[kendomushi]

The problem with christianity that the old government had was not that it was a different religious system. It was that those bringing it had their own agenda. I was taught by Jesuits and they teach not the truth; rather they teach what is advantageous to the Jesuit order (even today many people question Jesuit motives at times). Plus the government here did not live in a vaccuum, they were aware of European colonization in asia and aware that spreading of christianity was one tool they used very effectively to insinuate themselves into a country and its people and separate them from their rulers and traditions. The thrust of spreading christianity was mainly to westernize peoples, make them suitable subjects for their european "betters" and not to save their souls.