Bokken

[ZealUK]

I bought a white oak bokken with grooves (hi) from ninecircles, and currently use it for practice, due to my lack of an iaito.

I was just wondering how to best take care of my bokken. The grooves on the sides have fairly sharp edges, and so tend to splinter off a bit after tachi uchi no kurai and bunkai practice. I have been sanding down the bokken every two weeks or so, and rubbing in several coats of raw linseed oil to hopefully keep the wood nice and healthy. Is this the best way to look after the bokken?

I heard that boiled linseed oil or tung oil was better than raw linseed oil because it is less sticky.

Or maybe I should just purchase a bokken without hi on the sides for ease of care?

[Ralutin]

Hi,


I bought a white oak bokken with grooves (hi) from ninecircles, and currently use it for practice, due to my lack of an iaito.

I was just wondering how to best take care of my bokken. The grooves on the sides have fairly sharp edges, and so tend to splinter off a bit after tachi uchi no kurai and bunkai practice. I have been sanding down the bokken every two weeks or so, and rubbing in several coats of raw linseed oil to hopefully keep the wood nice and healthy. Is this the best way to look after the bokken?

Every two weeks may be overkill, but at least you sand and oil your bokken regularly. Good!


I heard that boiled linseed oil or tung oil was better than raw linseed oil because it is less sticky.

I don't have any experience with raw linseed oil or tung oil, but I do use boiled linseed oil and it works very well...not very sticky at all when wet.


Or maybe I should just purchase a bokken without hi on the sides for ease of care?

Though I've never seen or worked with a bokken with hi, I don't really see any reason to have the hi on a bokken, especially since you're having a splintering issue. Ascetically, I think the hi would just take away from the "clean" lines of the bokken. I would consider buying a new bokken.

[chidokan]

I would not use this bokken for tachi uchi no kurai, it is a little on the lightweight side. Shame you damaged it, they are nice iaido bokken! if you are doing tachi uchi against beginners, they do tend to hit harder than necessary, at the wrong angles etc so it will get damaged. Personally I prefer to use the solid type, again japanese oak, although I am making one from willow at the moment to see if it will take impacts better....it should if it can take a cricket ball.... :wink: The one I use is also slightly thicker than regular bokken so can take accidental side impacts from beginners a little better. I bought it in Japan a while ago and it is lasting quite well, a little oil now and again keeps it in good shape.

[ZealUK]

if you are doing tachi uchi against beginners, they do tend to hit harder than necessary, at the wrong angles etc so it will get damaged.
I'm only a beginner myself :D

I think the idea behind the grooves it to get the whoosh sound that people get with iaito. Its a bit misleading though I think as the shape of the bokken and depth of the grooves differ greatly to that of those on an iaito.

I'll buy another bokken for tachi uchi no kurai I think. Its easier to sand down one without grooves as well I guess.

Thanks for the advice.:smiley:

[R A Sosnowski]

I'm only a beginner myself :D

I think the idea behind the grooves it to get the whoosh sound that people get with iaito. Its a bit misleading though I think as the shape of the bokken and depth of the grooves differ greatly to that of those on an iaito.

I'll buy another bokken for tachi uchi no kurai I think. Its easier to sand down one without grooves as well I guess.

Thanks for the advice.:smiley:

Hi on Bokken are more trouble than they are worth - constantly repairing the splinter damage. I do have a Bokken with Hi made by Kingfisher in laminated rosewood but the laminating material is a polymer so I don't have to worry about splintering.

Also, with a good hardwood Bokken, there is not need to oil it. Sweat and natural oils from the hands are the traditional method of application. There is some sort of feeling in the West here that Bokken must be oiled. If you feel that you must oil your Bokken, then just oil the blade portion and not the Tsuka area.

[chidokan]

I forgot to say that....now I have visions of oiled bokken flying across dojos! :scared:

[R A Sosnowski]

I forgot to say that....now I have visions of oiled bokken flying across dojos! :scared:

ROTFLMAO! That makes for quite the visual. :D Thanks for sharing that thought.

[kundalini]

I bought a white oak bokken with grooves (hi) from ninecircles, and currently use it for practice, due to my lack of an iaito.

I was just wondering how to best take care of my bokken. The grooves on the sides have fairly sharp edges, and so tend to splinter off a bit after tachi uchi no kurai and bunkai practice. I have been sanding down the bokken every two weeks or so, and rubbing in several coats of raw linseed oil to hopefully keep the wood nice and healthy. Is this the best way to look after the bokken?

I heard that boiled linseed oil or tung oil was better than raw linseed oil because it is less sticky.

Or maybe I should just purchase a bokken without hi on the sides for ease of care?
Bit off topic here but what exactly is tachi uchi no kurai and bunkai? I'm only three lessons into Iaido and have not come across them.

[chidokan]

bunkai is the explanation of why you do a particular technique...it helps visualise what you are doing and gives a target to aim for, albeit only in your minds eye.
Tachi uchi no kurai is partner work from the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, usually taught after you have a good basic control of the sword. There are three levels, however there also a set of seven by Oe Masamichi that is based on the original three sets.
I cannot see a grooved bokken being used as a contact sword, just for iaido only. I had one made for me by my father in law who died about 5 years ago, so its a sentimental piece which I am ultra careful with. Its quite useful for teaching with, as I can show how part of the technique works without fear of accidentally cutting the guy I am using as the enemy. I would recommend them as initially the student does not need to use the saya, then can transition to using the saya, then when confident can start using an iaito.

[liucsss]

I find one website about quality Japanese wood weapon, www.e-bokken.com (http://www.e-bokken.com/) ,I think maybe you can find some quality bokken on the company system .. I think that is the world system...

[Reikon]

I just use a cheap $10 Red Oak bokken when i practice...

It's a bit heavier than usual...hence a sword is lighter.

BTW..don't use the linseed oil for bokkens, use raw linseed oil...I head the ones they make for bokkens, the chemicals they use for processing cause cancer. Obviously, this is bad. But again, it's just something i heard.

[Banza Joe]

Question for Chidokan (Tim)....or anyone else who knows the answer. Sorry to wander off topic slightly.....
I know you used to practice kendo, but now don't cos of your knees. Are the tachi uchi no karai forms similar to the kendo kata? I've been practising kendo now for 3 months, and after getting over the usual n00b hurdles, i'm finding that kihon no kata and kendo no kata are coming quite natural to me, due to my iai study (with Brian), but i was wondering if there is any similar crossover with iai and kendo kata.

Cheers

[chidokan]

I find kendo no kata easier to do, the techniques are really simple nowadays in comparison to TUNK. Sometimes I forget about height of stance for the kendo kata and drop low though! Nowadays in england it would probably fail me a grade if I could be bothered to do them, but old japanese sensei always smile and say something like 'thats how we used to do it in the old days'.
If you are ever given the chance to practise with Sumi sensei dont miss out, he is really keen on kendo kata. If you like I can give you my slant on them at the next seminar we are on. I am off down to Brian's in December when he comes back from Japan, so can show you what beginners do and how to progress from there, and also the bits they dont do any more!

[Banza Joe]

I find kendo no kata easier to do, the techniques are really simple nowadays in comparison to TUNK. Sometimes I forget about height of stance for the kendo kata and drop low though! Nowadays in england it would probably fail me a grade if I could be bothered to do them, but old japanese sensei always smile and say something like 'thats how we used to do it in the old days'.
If you are ever given the chance to practise with Sumi sensei dont miss out, he is really keen on kendo kata. If you like I can give you my slant on them at the next seminar we are on. I am off down to Brian's in December when he comes back from Japan, so can show you what beginners do and how to progress from there, and also the bits they dont do any more!

Cheers Tim,
look forward to seeing you. I first learned the tata hiza no bu under your tutorledge (sp?). Although my knees only allow me to do everything tachi nowadays. Kendo doesn't hurt my knees at all. Are you going to Japan this weekend? I heard that Iwata sensei has taken ill.

[ukenagashi]

just to say for oils if you are going oil your bokkens, oils are a good way to ensure that it becomes water proof this helps prevent warping so you dont get a wonky sword, all oils help stabilty and gives it a better look, it just depends what kind of oil you are looking for, tung oil from china are used for salad bowls and chopind boards so that can't be too bad.:)

[Halcyon]

I've actually used this mineral oil from Ikea on my bokken and my shinai. Works quite well. It's normally used for chopping boards and such.

http://www.ikea-usa.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10101&storeId=12&langId=-1&productId=10318

[chidokan]

not going to Japan this time, I have the money but no holidays. Its usually the other way round... :smiley: Thing is do i buy a koto blade i have my eye on or go to Japan? Decisions, decisions....

Apparently Iwata sensei collapsed while teaching a student for 3 days solid. He's now out of hospital. The England trip the other week and continuing on when he got back seems to have tired him a little too much. Sounds like he's back to normal though as he is now planning his next England trip :wink: I think Brian and Neil may pop down and see him if he doesnt go to Ozu, though knowing what he is like I doubt if he'll not turn up though... lets face it who is going to try and stop him! :scared: I know if it was me I'd still go even if I just had to sit and watch.

Neil has a load of questions for him from the teachers 'get together' last Sunday and I am looking forward to the answers.

[Peter_Overeem]

dont belive in sanding a Bokken .....just clean it and oil it when the wood gets a bit "dry"

Grooves in a Bokken is a big NONO because a Bokken is a training item ...not for looks or "sounds".
Also grooves increase the chances on injuries when doing close combat practice, i would not like a grooved bokken hitting me in my neck (and scrapin off all the skin in the progress).

If you want to upgrade to a metal sword ...there are several cheap solutions for that.
I personaly use a Paul Chen Practical plus Katana myself...i blunted the sharp edge...i use it because i like the balance of that sword ...
But there are even cheaper options :)
Check E-bay under Iato or Iado ..you will find some fairly cheap.


Greetz http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[chidokan]

anyone changed the fittings on a paul chen plus? just wondered what the tang is like as the ones I have seen have an overly thick tsuka for my taste...

[roar]

anyone changed the fittings on a paul chen plus? just wondered what the tang is like as the ones I have seen have an overly thick tsuka for my taste...

Ask the swordists over at www.swordforum.com, this topic has been run trough the mill several times. I think the tsuka is glued on, so you have to destroy it to get it off, and then use a lot of energy on making a new one. I have tried such a sword for some light cutting, and without any big effort, I cut 5 beachmats rolled together. I would have gone for a thicker target, but I was out of mats. I was impressed that such a cheap sword has such a reasonably good blade. I think the tang is quite long.

I got a kris cutlery 26 by a student, and ripped of the tsuka to make an improvement in the horrible tsuba/tsuka combo. I found that the easiest was to take tsuba and tsuka from an old iaito, and just file the kc tang to fit this handle. That showed to be a nice solution, and I used this sword for some cutting, but the blade is just to short in the long run, both for tameshigiri and iai. Now the tsuka is back on its old iaito-blade, and my kc is awaiting a new tsuka, made from scratch. So many projects, so little time.

[Matlock]

In my experience, oiling bokkens is not really necessary. Just wipe it down when you finish practicing and be careful where you store it when not in use. Waterproofing has never been an issue for me but I do not often practice in the rain.

Wipe it clean after use, store it well and maybe a light sanding when necessary.

Cheers

[TheSkateShack]

The sword you bought from nine circles is a non contact iai sword and should not be used against an opponent. That is why it was splintering. If you want to use a sword for contact in iai use this one
http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden_Weapons__Shinai/Bokken/Standard_Bokken/Oak_Daito_-_102cm.aspx

[Anorymous]

The sword you bought from nine circles is a non contact iai sword and should not be used against an opponent. That is why it was splintering. If you want to use a sword for contact in iai use this one
http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/Wooden_Weapons__Shinai/Bokken/Standard_Bokken/Oak_Daito_-_102cm.aspx

Seeing as the sword in question is over 8 years old as of now, I doubt your reply will have much significance...

[Kokoro777]

Unless you have an exotic hardwood bokken (Ironwood, Ebony Cocobola etc) I'd regard it as a bit of a 'disposable item': use it when it splinters too much, get a new one! Have a look here for some nice (expensive) bokken and no silly postage costs for UK residents! http://www.bokkenshop.co.uk/index.htm

I think we need babayaga/Beth's opinion on this-I think she's a bit of an expert.

[meganathenilla]

I was thinking of a white oak bokken because I heard that they were really light and really hard...but then again it would pobably help to have a heavy one to build up that arm muscle hmm?

[sirius1906]

You don't really need heavy bokuto to build muscle, just add more repetition. We do 1000 suburi at kagami biraki (first practice of the year party). It's quite tiring if you don't do it all the time.

[babayaga]

Unless you have an exotic hardwood bokken (Ironwood, Ebony Cocobola etc) I'd regard it as a bit of a 'disposable item': use it when it splinters too much, get a new one!

<snip>

I think we need babayaga/Beth's opinion on this-I think she's a bit of an expert.

Ack, there you go using the "e" word. I'm nothing more than an artist with a modicum of knowledge, and a little knack, and some good friends who are willing to bash around the things I make. I've hardly been doing this long enough to be qualified as an expert. :-)

Being a saru-doshi, however, I do have some strong opinions . . .

One should expect that one's weapons will eventually give themselves up in the course of training. Proper care and selection will help maximize their lifespan. Choose woods that take contact. Don't smash them against each other full-force. Oil and protect them (if you buy commercially-produced weapons, I recommend sanding off any lacquer and oiling them). Retire them when the material fatigues.

The exotics you mention are all unsuitable for contact--I'd hesitate to use terms like disposable vs. non-disposable. For me the dividing line isn't how pretty or exotic the wood is, but how good it is for actual training. Ipe (one of the Ironwoods) splinters in nasty ways and does a number on your dojomates' weapons. Ebony and Cocobolo are brittle. Lovely, but the reason you don't use them with your friends is not because they're exotics, but because you don't want them failing catastrophically and putting a friend's eye out.


I was thinking of a white oak bokken because I heard that they were really light and really hard...but then again it would pobably help to have a heavy one to build up that arm muscle hmm?

Japanese white oak is medium weight for the purposes of weaponry. There are lighter (hickory, ash, black locust) and heavier (jatoba, eucalyptus, purpleheart, lignum vitae). The reason it's the most common wood is simply because it's the best choice for most people. One needs good technique more than raw muscle strength for iaido. White oak should provide enough weight that you can't whip it and overextend your joints, but not so much that you give yourself a repetitive stress injury or build up unnecessary muscle bulk.

If your teacher doesn't recommend a particular style, I'd suggest a white oak Shinto Muso-ryu style bokuto. They are fairly thin-bladed, with proportions similar to the iaito you're probably using, can often be ordered with a plastic saya for practice, and can be used with or without a tsuba. It's a versatile type, and nothing about it should get in the way of MJER techniques you'll be practicing with it. And it won't break the bank (though I wouldn't pay less than $45-50 for one new).

Hope this helps.

-Beth

[Maro]

Hi Beth, is that a Shobu Bokken tip in your Avatar?

[ScottUK]

What is really cool about this is that ZealUK who posted this back in 2004 now trains in Jigen-ryu in Kagoshima, and probably knows more about making wooden weapons (go see how the Jigen guys train) than any of us.

Brilliant.

[babayaga]

Hi Beth, is that a Shobu Bokken tip in your Avatar?

Hi Maro,

Nope, that's a Buko-ryu naginata -- one of my Giant Purple People Beaters. My raison d'etre.


What is really cool about this is that ZealUK who posted this back in 2004 now trains in Jigen-ryu in Kagoshima, and probably knows more about making wooden weapons (go see how the Jigen guys train) than any of us.

Well, perhaps he decided to not fight it and just go with the splintering.

:)

Seriously, though, weapons should be checked after every contact practice for chips and splinters. Splintery bits should be shaved off and any newly-exposed wood oiled. And use the right type of bokuto for the training. There's usually a good reason for the various shapes of the diverse ryuha.

-Beth

[ScottUK]

...or he changed to a ryuha that don't use bokuto as you know them...

[Anorymous]

I'd pay good cash to acquire a bokutou made of cornel, actually... I've heard it's one of the most dense and resilient woods you can find, and I'd be very curious to know if it would approach the weight of a shinken. It's rather common here, but its timber is still hard to come across.

[ScottUK]

I have bokuto that are both the same weight and heavier than shinken.

Unless you are willing/skilled enough to adjust the balance of a bokuto, I wouldn't bother considering weight.

[meganathenilla]

Cornel (pardon my dorkiness) is extremely resiliant. Ask Alexander the Great or Philip II of Macedon ;D the 13 foot sarissa spears used in the phalanx were about 10lbs of hard cornel wood (though I think the longest were about 22 feet and over 16lbs). Perfect for combat.

[ScottUK]

You engage in Greek combat with bokuto?

[meganathenilla]

no hahahaha just saying that Greek battle tactics has made me somewhat familiar with cornel wood XD

[Anorymous]

(We've got waaay out of topic, but it's fun so I can't really care.)

Cornel (pardon my dorkiness) is extremely resiliant. Ask Alexander the Great or Philip II of Macedon ;D the 13 foot sarissa spears used in the phalanx were about 10lbs of hard cornel wood (though I think the longest were about 22 feet and over 16lbs). Perfect for combat.

Erm. Showing knowledge and interest in the history of the place I'm from doesn't make you "dorky", it makes you instantly likable. Yes, the main reason I know about cornel is that factoid--and did you know that the Gordian knot was made out of cornel bark?



I have bokuto that are both the same weight and heavier than shinken. Unless you are willing/skilled enough to adjust the balance of a bokuto, I wouldn't bother considering weight.
While I would be interested in having a bokutou with a realistic weight, I would compromise neither the balance nor the impact resilience. So no, I don't think I'll bother pimping my bokutou any.



You engage in Greek combat with bokuto?

To be honest, I do wonder from time to time if a wooden naginata would be an effective model of a rhomphaia if used backwards. But, rhomphaiai were much less curved than naginata...

[meganathenilla]

Erm. Showing knowledge and interest in the history of the place I'm from doesn't make you "dorky", it makes you instantly likable. Yes, the main reason I know about cornel is that factoid--and did you know that the Gordian knot was made out of cornel bark?

Haha thanks. Ah! that would certainly attest to the stories that people had one hell of a time untying it and Alexander cutting it.

[chidokan]

only thing I ever do to bokken is shorten them so they fit people if they are shop bought, or make from scratch, which is just fun. Try african blackwood as a replacement blade for iaito, it has a nice balance. I have inlet one with beech to replicate the edge, and Pasi is finishing it off as a 'teaching sword' for himself. Beech was a bit too much of a contrast, although is easy to work, so next time maybe yew....

Rumour has it Alex is coming home shortly....complete with wife and baby. I did warn him about taking a JET course a little bit too seriously, but he wouldn't listen!:laugh:

[Kim Taylor]

Coming up on 30 years of making these wooden things to whack and telling folks about them and it's still the same ideas.

The harder the better
The heavier the better
You can find unbreakable wood

Oh hell I haven't the energy to go on. All I know is that these days I pick up anything that's close at hand, and if I have a choice I pick the lightest one I can find. My current favourite jo is an american white oak thing that weighs about two ounces and would break in half if anyone ever hit it square.

Took a massive chunk out of a student's Japanese White Oak bokuto by dropping my arm with a bit of a shibori but only dropping using gravity. Hit it square on of course.

It ain't the tool you're using, it's the tool using it.

I like the Jigen weapons, fit my aesthetic these days. On the other hand, a nice cocobolo bokuto is a beauty to behold.

Kim.

[ScottUK]

Rumour has it Alex is coming home shortly....complete with wife and baby. I did warn him about taking a JET course a little bit too seriously, but he wouldn't listen!:laugh:Keep me up to date, dude!

[ZealUK]

Rumour has it Alex is coming home shortly....complete with wife and baby. I did warn him about taking a JET course a little bit too seriously, but he wouldn't listen!:laugh:

Started a business last year and just finished building a house. No plans to go back to the UK for a while yet!

Got two kids now by the way :)

[ScottUK]

Congrats on the business and additional future Jigen loon. :D

[PaulBennett]

Hi,

Ive been making western style wooden swords for a while now. They are called "wasters". Have been for hundreds of years.

The reason should be obvious. Its wood. It will break. No amount of oiling will change that.

Most of the wasters I make are destined to be mercilessly bashed against each other, so for this use, I can recommend the following:

1: choose a poorly splitting, long - grained wood such as ash or maple. Oak is not great for long weapons

This is because you want to plan for failure first. Oak is fine for chunky impact weapon stuff, like poleaxe heads, as it will chip off bit by bit, allowing you to sand and keep using. However, this means that if used in a long weapon, it may break in half, sending bits across the dojo and into your training partners.
Longer grained, poorly splitting woods will split along the grain rather than across it, and tend to have remnants sticking together even in a catastrauphic failure.
In terms of repair, a long grained wood is easier to glue back together, and has enough surface area that you can do it and make a good bond.
Not that you should put a totally split bokken back together, but edge splinters can be saved.

2: The only thing that will definitely stop your bokken splitting or splintering is to add some other material to it.
People have mentioned polymers in laminates, but after market, your best bet is tape. Electrical tape or, eve better, cricket bat tape. Most people dont like that due to the aesthetic effect. Which is why everyone wants unbreakable wood or some magic oil

3: Sanding and oiling is about preventing small splinters going into people.
The oils penetrate the wood and stop it drying out and thus slightly reducing splinter formation from dents, but is only slight.
Then the oil dries on the surface, making a layer that slightly helps to stop splinters rising from the surface. Slightly.

A much better way of achieving this effect is yacht varnish, but its still not as good as tape. Why? you seal the wood with varnish. With tape, you can still take it off and oil the wood to stop it drying out too much.


If you want ash bokken (or any other wood) in the uk, made to your specification, give me a bell and Ill see what I can do :-)

[chidokan]

bokken are a bit more difficult to pull off compared to european wasters due to the curvature,(I make them as well, along with longbows and arrowshafts) but I cheat initially by using a router to profile the general shape, then back to spokeshaves to get what I am after. Nicest wood I ever used was an African walnut.... apparently carcinogenic, but finished a beautiful golden colour and a really nice balance... gave it to my mate Neil as he was impressed with it.

[Kokoro777]

Carcinogenic? You obviously don't like your mate , Neil!

(just looked it up, it's safe)

[chidokan]

its to do with the dust you make, rather than the finished article...there are quite a few woods that are unsafe to work. My mate Fred reacts horribly with yew, which is unfortunate as he makes longbows....

[Peter West]

You can save yourself a lot of trouble sanding if you burnish the wood when you by a bokuto for contact practice.
Get a teaspoon and with your thumb in the bowl of the spoon rub all over the wood with quite high pressure (as much as you can without hurting your thumb and wrist). This will compact the surface fibres and make them less likely to fracture on impact. The bokuto I use is nearly 15 years old. I use it for tachi uchi, jodo and many years of Niten Ichi Ryu, and is still virtually unmarked.

[chidokan]

same as the old 'bouncing a ball on the cricket bat' routine... The thread had me thinking about making a ash/willow bokken now it has been revived, but I can see a potential problem with the size of the joint, probably too weak... But I will try it anyway!

[Kokoro777]

You can save yourself a lot of trouble sanding if you burnish the wood when you by a bokuto for contact practice.
Get a teaspoon and with your thumb in the bowl of the spoon rub all over the wood with quite high pressure (as much as you can without hurting your thumb and wrist). This will compact the surface fibres and make them less likely to fracture on impact. The bokuto I use is nearly 15 years old. I use it for tachi uchi, jodo and many years of Niten Ichi Ryu, and is still virtually unmarked.Great tip!

[PaulBennett]

bokken are a bit more difficult to pull off compared to european wasters due to the curvature,(I make them as well, along with longbows and arrowshafts) but I cheat initially by using a router to profile the general shape, then back to spokeshaves to get what I am after. Nicest wood I ever used was an African walnut.... apparently carcinogenic, but finished a beautiful golden colour and a really nice balance... gave it to my mate Neil as he was impressed with it.

I actually find the bokken easier to do, as I can do it with a spokeshave. The western swords i make with distal taper and an actual blade profile, so its a bit more complex than most

I even put a touch of taper on the bokken so its rotational dynamics more closely approximate an actual sword

www.historicarts.co.uk

[chidokan]

I also balance bokken specifically for junior students. Some bokken I come across have a 'flat' balance, rather than tip or handle heavy, and I like them to feel the kissaki cutting, so rather than give them a flat or tsuka heavy bokken I make a tip heavy version. Once they get the feel, I am not so bothered as to type of balance they get, but usually have a devil of a job parting them from their tip heavy one...;)