Maintaining attacking mindset and a calm mind

[G-CHAN]

I was inspired to write this from some of the responses I've read from the " Being set up thread." Not really looking for a response.

I think the hardest mental challenges in kendo is maintaining the attacking mindset with a calm mind. Because if you can't remain calm during tame, you won't be able see and act when the opportunities presents itself. In other words you need to have the attacking mindset and a calm mind in order to read the opponent.

In Andy Fishers response, he said he was told to "wait out the aite" until the aite loses his concentration and attack. This, I have to admit is one of my faux pas because if I get out pressured (seme) during tame, I tend to get a little anxious and lose my concentration and get scored upon because I got caught flat footed or I hesitated.

Just so many ways you can lose control of situations if you don't maintain the attacking mindset yet keep your mind calm.

[tango]

if I get out pressured (seme) during tame, I tend to get a little anxious and lose my concentration and get scored upon because I got caught flat footed or I hesitated.

Intersting...
I would think that if you are getting anxious, then you wind up attacking pre-maturely...

[Anorymous]

A mind-set that helped me with that was "I might be attacking to kill, I also want to show my opponent where the openings in his/her stance are". From then, knowing that I'm also out to help my opponent, calming myself got easier.

[G-CHAN]

Intersting...
I would think that if you are getting anxious, then you wind up attacking pre-maturely...

That happens also. I think it's the same for most kendokas, when the aite does something to make me lose my focus for an instant (gets me to worry about what the aites going to do), I get caught in "no mans land." If I show hesitation, I get shikake wazad. If I attack, oji wazad. Or I just get defensive and block.

In the end, you just give credit to the aite because that's what good kendokas do.

Buggers.

[Bokushingu]

I discovered that i must use a little self talk. it keeps me from attacking without seme and allows me to setup debana men. it also keeps me from zoning out or just waiting or reacting.

i just think stuff like, "make him move then tag em'" or "set him up make him come in"

[UnimportantHero]

I know (from nausea experiences) that my sympathetic nervous system (taking an anatomy class at the moment so I have body science on the brain, forgive me) tends to kick in hard during keiko, and I get some serious tunnel vision. Opponents seem larger than normal and I lose significant awareness over my surroundings. But the most difficult for me is what to do once my endurance is gone. I really do not know how long my sensei keeps us in keiko, but after awhile my body craps out and with it goes the brain. I just slip into a purely defensive mode and then - should we go longer still - end up as a statue until I feel like I am about to collapse. It is not even a severe exhaustion and I am sure many people (me included) could work through it without much effort. A huge mental factor is at work there I think. But yeah.

Zanshin is hard.

[hugo]

To play the devil's advocate:

If you are "thinking" during the match, or consciously dividing the match into reset-tame-attack at the time, then probably you will lose.
Wouldn't a calm mind come from tossing those thoughts aside?

[Hisham]

I know (from nausea experiences) that my sympathetic nervous system (taking an anatomy class at the moment so I have body science on the brain, forgive me) tends to kick in hard during keiko, and I get some serious tunnel vision. Opponents seem larger than normal and I lose significant awareness over my surroundings. But the most difficult for me is what to do once my endurance is gone. I really do not know how long my sensei keeps us in keiko, but after awhile my body craps out and with it goes the brain. I just slip into a purely defensive mode and then - should we go longer still - end up as a statue until I feel like I am about to collapse. It is not even a severe exhaustion and I am sure many people (me included) could work through it without much effort. A huge mental factor is at work there I think. But yeah.

Zanshin is hard.

IMHO a good honest kiai can help in those moments.



To play the devil's advocate:

If you are "thinking" during the match, or consciously dividing the match into reset-tame-attack at the time, then probably you will lose.
Wouldn't a calm mind come from tossing those thoughts aside?


Keeping a calm mind while under the "assault" of the four sicknesses or at least diminishing there effect is an ideal to strive for, in other words, easier said than done, the number of hachidan test takers that fail each year is proof of that.

[UnimportantHero]

IMHO a good honest kiai can help in those moments.

It absolutely does. But I can still only get one aggressive attack outta it before I flumph back down. It is something I am building up to. ;)

[DigitalDowntown]

At the risk of sounding cliché, I meditate regularly and take the mokusou period before and after keiko very seriously. I was already involved in Zen studies at the Soto Zen training temple, Soujiji, in Yokohama when I began kendo. Zazen practice (ie. meditation) has always gone hand in hand with budo practice for me. Just like doing anything else, practicing something makes it easier to do 'on call.' I'm FAR from a master of mushin, but that 'zoned-out' feeling is more or less what I'm going for during kendo keiko. After bowing in and while going into sonkyo, I stop 'planning' my kendo and pay attention to my breathing.... then hajime! An immediate kiai then snaps me into the match!

[turboyoshi]

I'm FAR from a master of mushin, but that 'zoned-out' feeling is more or less what I'm going for during kendo keiko. After bowing in and while going into sonkyo, I stop 'planning' my kendo and pay attention to my breathing.... then hajime!

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mind. Mushin and calmness are not the same thing. It's fine if you're already proficient but mushin is useless probably for anyone under sandan. You need to have the proper reflexes ingrained before you can use them in a state of mushin. Training those reflexes takes years so until then, thinking and planning are necessary for learning and success. A calm mind doesn't mean you need to stop consciously analysing and evaluating.

[DigitalDowntown]

This is a bit of a pet peeve of mind. Mushin and calmness are not the same thing. It's fine if you're already proficient but mushin is useless probably for anyone under sandan. You need to have the proper reflexes ingrained before you can use them in a state of mushin. Training those reflexes takes years so until then, thinking and planning are necessary for learning and success. A calm mind doesn't mean you need to stop consciously analysing and evaluating.
You're right, mushin and calmness do not mean the same thing. I'm calmly sitting here typing at a computer, but my mind is not in a state of mushin. I couldn't disagree with you more about waiting until sandan however.

You mentioned needing to develop proper reflexes; how does one go about training those reflexes? Reflex actions are at their best when you are in a flexible mental state. Technique training is something different and gets pounded into you when you practice your waza with a motodachi. Probably one should wait until they are more technically developed before attempting to pull off nidan/sandan ojiwaza from a state of mental mushin, but why can't an ikkyu also work on his/her reflexes during keiko using the waza they have been practicing such as shomen, kote-men, and debana-men? Mental development is a major aspect of the kata practice and is introduced at the mudansha level.

Ji-geiko and shiai-geiko require everything to come together, technique, intelligence, and reflexes. I've never heard a sensei tell anyone to analyze their way through ji-geiko at any level. Self reflection, video recording, and of course your sensei are great ways to consciously evaluate your keiko. I'm not saying to throw effective strategy to the wind, but you're not really doing ji-gieko if you don't let your self react naturally to the dynamics of the 'fight.'

Just my opinions reflecting my own budo experiences.

[JSchmidt]

Ji-geiko and shiai-geiko require everything to come together, technique, intelligence, and reflexes. I've never heard a sensei tell anyone to analyze their way through ji-geiko at any level. Self reflection, video recording, and of course your sensei are great ways to consciously evaluate your keiko. I'm not saying to throw effective strategy to the wind, but you're not really doing ji-gieko if you don't let your self react naturally to the dynamics of the 'fight.' I disagree. Ji-geiko is practice and can just as easily be used for evaluation as kihon. Sure, parts of it is shiai-like (Especially for the shodachi and, depending on the level of the aite, the ippon-shobu), but it's the place where you practice your basics in practical application. Now, if you aren't reflecting on why you got failed/succeeded during the practice and experimenting with the various techniques, then I think you probably aren't maximizing the potential of ji-geiko.

[ShinKenshi]

I couldn't disagree with you more about waiting until sandan however.Unfortunately up until sandan there are more important things to work on than understanding and attaining mushin.


You mentioned needing to develop proper reflexes; how does one go about training those reflexes?More keiko. Repeat.


Reflex actions are at their best when you are in a flexible mental state. Technique training is something different and gets pounded into you when you practice your waza with a motodachi. Probably one should wait until they are more technically developed before attempting to pull off nidan/sandan ojiwaza from a state of mental mushin, but why can't an ikkyu also work on his/her reflexes during keiko using the waza they have been practicing such as shomen, kote-men, and debana-men? Mental development is a major aspect of the kata practice and is introduced at the mudansha level.You're glancing off the nail here. Technique training develops your muscle memory and reaction time so by the time sandan rolls around, you'll have trained your body to react much more naturally. An ikkyu kenshi is actively working on those reflexes simply by doing drills and movements appropriate for their level. Nothing new there. In short, you're already on the road to mushin; your sempai and sensei are not explicitly going to tell you you're working on it as it takes away from focusing on the basics until you're ready to address it as a distinct concept.


Ji-geiko and shiai-geiko require everything to come together, technique, intelligence, and reflexes. I've never heard a sensei tell anyone to analyze their way through ji-geiko at any level. Self reflection, video recording, and of course your sensei are great ways to consciously evaluate your keiko. I'm not saying to throw effective strategy to the wind, but you're not really doing ji-gieko if you don't let your self react naturally to the dynamics of the 'fight.'

Just my opinions reflecting my own budo experiences.You're splitting hairs here. I don't think anyone here has ever said they've been instructed to think in a play-by-play method. It just happens a lot to beginners because they are still developing their reflexes and technique, so of course they are going to have to be much more active thinkers for the time being. The point people were trying to make before was that no one is going to only tell a beginner to not think and let things come naturally. Mudansha need some more concrete instruction to develop their technique while shodan-nidan kenshi are refining those techniques further. Every single practice and every strike that is made is taking one step closer to acheiving mushin, whether you realize it (or are told it) or not. Once you hit sandan and you start working towards yondan is when you really start taking a hard look at refining your technique even further to become closer to mushin.

Bottom line, below sandan it's better to give more explicit instruction on technique refinement and improvement since they are working towards letting reflex take over just by participating in practice. After you've hit sandan you've gotten your technique to the point where you can work on specifically on letting your training take over and reducing your active thought and do less "planning" during keiko.

[DigitalDowntown]

Hmmm... I don't really disagree with the responses above.

My first post in the thread was a follow-up to the OPs thoughts on "Maintaining attacking mindset and a calm mind." I was commenting on how I approach the mental side of kendo, and to an extent, other activities such as cycling and running.

I completely agree that technique training and the subsequent muscle memory is a part of the development of ones reflexes, and I completely agree that it's probably best to not ask an ikkyu to 'think about mushin.' I also agree that the desired mental development can come naturally with time and experience. However I respectfully disagree that mushin cannot be actively practiced by an ikkyu. Without introducing someone to the formal concept of an 'empty mind,' true mushin practice can be accomplished through quality kata-keiko, zazen sitting, qi-gong exercises, tai chi, etc. Kata aside and perhaps tai-chi (because it's a whole other discipline), this kind of mental cross-training can be introduced at any level just as physical cross-training can be. Not to sound silly but I doubt anybody here would tell an ikkyu that running should be reserved for advanced kendoka because it would otherwise interfere with their kihon waza.

Again, I can only speak from my own experience. Perhaps my outlook is a little different as I began kendo while undergoing formal Soto Zen training at Soujiji. I had been doing sesshin (extended stay at temple to experience monastic life) regularly by the time I started kendo. Not to sound 'mystical' or anything, but countless hours of meditation practice definitely helps develop at least a sense of no mind, especially when you have 'sempai' type monks walking around the zendo with large flat canes to whap you hard on the shoulders if you appear to be 'drifting.'

Interesting side note: My wife and I did have several judo sensei tell us not to run while doing judo as it would be too tough on the knees. My wife loved running though and cut back her mileage but didn't give it up entirely. She later needed knee surgery.

[turboyoshi]

I couldn't disagree with you more about waiting until sandan however.
I didn't say anything about waiting. I mean that until people have a certain amount of training time invested, those reflexes just aren't there for mushin to take advantage of.



Reflex actions are at their best when you are in a flexible mental state.
Mushin is not just a flexible mental state, it's a particular state. One where no thought is required to respond to a certain stimulus, because that response is already preprogrammed in, so to speak. If you are in a state of mushin, and faced with a situation for which you do not have a correctly programmed response, then your response will be a default action such as flinching or something else that is unlikely to be effective.

I get peeved about it because when I was a newbie in karate, a lof of karate "sensei" mention stuff like this and it's distracting from proper training. Once I finally got it, I realized how full of shit these sensei where and was aggravated with myself for wasting so much effort trying to understand them.

Shinkenshi got my point. Certain concepts like mushin, ki, etc do not need to be discussed. If you don't understand what they are, you're not at the level where they're useful to you. If you are at that level, you don't need to be told about them.

[DigitalDowntown]

turboyoshi,

Cool, I don't think we actually disagree on anything; I can't comment on your experiences with your karate sensei, perhaps they were full of shit.

I was only sharing how I train my mind for kendo-keiko among other things.

[Josh Reyer]

I disagree with the conceptualization of "mushin" presented here. Let me quote Yagyu Nobuharu, 21st soke of Yagyu Shinkage-ryu:


Therefore these important elements of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu are close to the elements of Zen practice. These are just explanatory remarks on how to obtain real braveness. "Heijoshin" means the natural, ordinary mental condition that we practice in daily life. Some of you may have thought I was talking of something very special but what I am talking about is very normal. Right now you are inhaling and exhaling.

Now I inhale.

Now I exhale.

There is nobody who intentionally inhales and exhales. Without paying any special attention then, this movement of inhaling and exhaling fits our body condition, this is a very good situation. Unless you have a very special reason, you don't walk paying attention to putting your right foot forward and then your left foot. This kind of movement that we learn without any attention is called "mushin". It is correctly performed and fits the requirement. Therefore even under very serious situations, if you can maintain mushin and you don't push the opponent and you're not pushed by him, you will be able to demonstrate your own ability and capability and remain free from difficulty.

To put it in perspective, I was told by my instructor I needed to act with "mushin" merely a few months after joining the dojo. He could tell me to do this (and I could train in that manner) so early because mushin is not a special or a unique state, but rather an everyday kind of state. The goal is simply to act in that everyday kind of state, even in a high-stress situation like keiko.

[The great I AM]

Mushin is always over-mystified in conversations like this.......

Back to attacking and calm, for me, I think that in terms of kendo they are simply both sides of the same coin, and I require both in order to be effective. If I attack without being calm (and therefore unable to properly consider my actions up to the attack) then mushin or otherwise, it's going to be difficult to produce something that I personally consider worth while, ie an effective strike with proper riai (being something that I am trying to keep a focus on while thinking about everything else...). Similarly, if I am calm but without an attacking mind set then I am basically just waiting. You need the attacking mindset to probe your opponent, to pressure them into doing what you want and to develop the chance to attack in a proactive manner. For me that is the attacking mindset, not something like "I must attack" or "I should think like I am killing him" or "My gun is bigger than his" or whatever. It is more the proactive approach to creating an attacking situation and the active application of it. Like I said though, this is all for me, and just so happens to fit what I am "working on" at the moment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Ji-geiko is practice and can just as easily be used for evaluation as kihon.+1. Jigeiko is your opportunity to work on what you want to work on, unless you're with sensei in which case he is usually driving things. If you want to work on a specific waza for example, then it's going to be much more structured/thought-out than if you were using that waza in shiai.

As far as mushin goes - we never train that stuff explicitly in our dojo. All those mental things mostly need more sweat to fall into place. Whenever I get to thinking too high and mighty about stuff like this, I need a session with a strong sensei to remind me that my mechanics still suck.

[DigitalDowntown]

Similarly, if I am calm but without an attacking mind set then I am basically just waiting. You need the attacking mindset to probe your opponent, to pressure them into doing what you want and to develop the chance to attack in a proactive manner. For me that is the attacking mindset, not something like "I must attack" or "I should think like I am killing him" or "My gun is bigger than his" or whatever.
Right, is it even real seme if you're only waiting to counter? Can real seme be performed if you aren't genuinely prepared to attack if the opportunity arises? What I'm asking is, can one seme fully and correctly if they are only planning a counter attack?

As far as the mushin thing goes, there may just be a fundamental cultural difference here. Some Westerners see this as a special Asian mystical/philosophical something and some Easterners see these concepts as a part of everyday life. I was raised back and forth between the USA and Japan and was brought up very cross culturally so I get the 'controversy.' I'm not advocating if these concepts should or should not be taught inside the kendojo, I'm sharing a part of my mental preparation for shiai/etc. I practice zazen meditation regularly; it's been a part of my life since I was a child and fits well into the context of kendo-keiko for me and I don't see why it has to be reserved for yudansha, kodansha or anyone in particular who wants to explore various methods of cross-training their mind. Of course I don't advocate replacing important kihon-waza-keiko of any kind. Everyone is of course correct in regards to ji-geiko practice, my comment regarding ji-geiko was in the context of open sparring/shiai-geiko but I failed to differentiate that then.
My my, KWF members can be very nit-picky at times. ;)

[ShinKenshi]

I practice zazen meditation regularly; it's been a part of my life since I was a child and fits well into the context of kendo-keiko for me and I don't see why it has to be reserved for yudansha, kodansha or anyone in particular who wants to explore various methods of cross-training their mind.The reason why some of us have said to wait until sandan is because we feel it is more important to explicitly tell beginners to focus more on developing their physical technique before focusing on the mushin aspect. Of course we encourage beginners to not get so caught up with thinking about everything in terms of step by step but until they hit sandan the underlying technical ability, in most cases, isn't to the point where they can get the most out of addressing mushin as a distinct concept. If they want to tackle it outside of kendo through zazen meditation as you have then more power to them.

I think we're talking over each other here and that we all agree on the core arguments. Where we seem to be missing each other is that many of us feel we all are working towards mushin through regular practice and that it does not need to be explicitly addressed as a distinct concept early on. Of course we encourage the development towards that state of mind but for many of us we feel focusing on physical technique takes priority over addressing mushin as a distinct concept as it may be confusing/conflicting in the minds of beginners. As I said before, just by showing up to regular practice and putting 100% effort in is not only training your body but also your ability to achieve mushin whether you are aware of it or not. A mudansha is taking steps toward it just by doing suburi and practicing with their sempai and sensei. Their technical proficiency may not be to the point where they can achieve mushin but they are still training towards it.


My my, KWF members can be very nit-picky at times. ;)We wouldn't be kendoka if we weren't though, would we?;-)

[DigitalDowntown]

My my, KWF members can be very nit-picky at times. ;)


We wouldn't be kendoka if we weren't though, would we?;-)

So true. Just look at what it takes to score ippon.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Right, is it even real seme if you're only waiting to counter?Depends on how you define "real seme"? A step in with no intent can scare a beginner into attacking but not cause a senior to flinch. A real mental pressure forward can break down the senior but be missed completely by the beginner. But if we are talking about the end goal then yes, in my opinion any real seme has to be backed up both by the true intent to attack if necessary and also the ability to back up that intent.

[G-CHAN]

Right, is it even real seme if you're only waiting to counter? Can real seme be performed if you aren't genuinely prepared to attack if the opportunity arises? What I'm asking is, can one seme fully and correctly if they are only planning a counter attack?


No, you never wait. If you wait, you won't be able to counter on time. You need to apply pressure at all times. What the Great One said was right on.

The time to strike when you counter is when you see the intent from the aite. The only difference between oji waza and shikake waza are the signs you get from the aite. For the most part I don't plan to oji, unless I'm trying to set up the aite. I don't want to confuse anyone so I won't discuss it here.

Thank you everyone for the replies.

[The great I AM]

Right, is it even real seme if you're only waiting to counter? Can real seme be performed if you aren't genuinely prepared to attack if the opportunity arises? What I'm asking is, can one seme fully and correctly if they are only planning a counter attack?It depends on what you understand as seme. For me, seme is something (anything) that I do that elicits a desired reponse out of my opponent. If I push down on their shinai and they attack, is that any less seme than stepping in to achieve the same? It all depends on your mentality. If you press down and they attack, and you aren't prepared for it, then you get tonked, because you may not really be looking to attack. Similarly, if you have a reason to do it, push down, they attack and you return it because you were prepared and looking for that opportunity, how is that any less seme than stepping in and doing tobikomi men? Both are and should be situations that your intention and action have created to achieve a specific end ie ippon uchi. So yes, I think you can call it seme if you plan and execute a counter attack (not just waiting for it).

That, for me, is seme. It's my own personal understanding of it (and I'm sure plenty will disagree with it!) and taking it more as a concept than the literal translation of the word. For me, understanding seme as a step in to bring an attack is something that I dropped a while ago.

[Bokushingu]

I feel that there is no need to focus on achieving mushin. I believe, based on the explanation that of the yagyu guy, it will occur naturally through experience & exposure.

[Jiyoui]

mushin is for wimps, fudoshin is where the real action is

[Bokushingu]

I have been experimenting with weight distribution. I have noticed when I put more weight on my back leg, I become defensive & my seme is weak. When distribute the weight evenly, sometimes I under-react but see more opportunities. When I put more weight on my front foot, my focus and seme is very strong!

Anyone else feel the same? My timing is much better with debanna waza when I'm 60/40 (front/rear). If I shift from equal weight to forward weight, my opponents seem to either step back or tighten up.

[UnimportantHero]

It depends on what you understand as seme.

For me it is the inexplicable black aura that I hope to someday manifest in shiai...


For me, seme is something (anything) that I do that elicits a desired reponse out of my opponent.

Or that. Probably closer to that.

[G-CHAN]

When I put more weight on my front foot, my focus and seme is very strong!

Anyone else feel the same? My timing is much better with debanna waza when I'm 60/40 (front/rear). If I shift from equal weight to forward weight, my opponents seem to either step back or tighten up.

I feel the same way. Just to expand a little on Gibbo's post...Sensei's will tell you that reading the opponent becomes a lot harder when you face experienced opponents because in order for you to force a reaction, you need to know how to converse with the aite through your shinai during tame. I think this is something that naturally happens as your kendo matures.

I'm not an expert in jodan or chudan, but this is where I feel jodan kamae is vulnerable to chudan because jodan is so one dimensional. It's an all or nothing kamae.

Here's a question for the jodan guys: Against experienced kendokas...how do you react when the aite applies pressure by manipulating space while pointing his kensen at a particular target? (kote, tsuki) Knowing the aite is trying to force you to attack?

[DigitalDowntown]

I'm not an expert in jodan or chudan, but this is where I feel jodan kamae is vulnerable to chudan because jodan is so one dimensional. It's an all or nothing kamae.

Here's a question for the jodan guys: Against experienced kendokas...how do you react when the aite applies pressure by manipulating space while pointing his kensen at a particular target? (kote, tsuki) Knowing the aite is trying to force you to attack?

I tried my jodan with a nito aite for the first time yesterday morning. As soon as I switched from chudan to jodan, he changed his kamae on me (of course) and left me feeling somewhat vulnerable and confused. His men was well protected and I don't yet have a good katate-kote so I became hesitant and the dynamics and seme of the match changed in his favor. I couldn't seem to pressure him into attacking first, he was pressuring me, and would then trap my shinai with his shoto once I attacked. He even managed to close maai enough to shoot for my dou a couple of times.

So to answer your question, going jodan against an experienced nito kendoka who was practicing for nationals next month, pressuring me and trying to force me into attacking.... I reacted with a loss of seme and 'died' several times. It was an awesome keiko though, we both had a lot of fun.

[G-CHAN]

I tried my jodan with a nito aite for the first time yesterday morning. As soon as I switched from chudan to jodan, he changed his kamae on me (of course) and left me feeling somewhat vulnerable and confused. His men was well protected and I don't yet have a good katate-kote so I became hesitant and the dynamics and seme of the match changed in his favor. I couldn't seem to pressure him into attacking first, he was pressuring me, and would then trap my shinai with his shoto once I attacked. He even managed to close maai enough to shoot for my dou a couple of times.

So to answer your question, going jodan against an experienced nito kendoka who was practicing for nationals next month, pressuring me and trying to force me into attacking.... I reacted with a loss of seme and 'died' several times. It was an awesome keiko though, we both had a lot of fun.


Thank you for the response. I see jodan kamae as a very wide open stance with 3 exposed targets....being vulnerable to several wazas, dekote (sideways/forward), men nuki doh, kaeshi doh, nuki doh, kote and tsuki.

In my opinion, since you don't have your shinai in front to protect you and your options to strike are limited...your mobility to move sideways, backwards as well as forward needs to be impeccable. Not just for protection, but to create opportunities to strike.

You also need a good understanding of maai and the aites as well. I'm just thinking out loud here Digital, please don't think I'm commenting on your jodan.

Gambare.

[JSchmidt]

Thank you for the response. I see jodan kamae as a very wide open stance with 3 exposed targets....being vulnerable to several wazas, dekote (sideways/forward), men nuki doh, kaeshi doh, nuki doh, kote and tsuki.


The degote timing needs to be impeccable. You only have a very short window compared to doing degote against chudan, as the angle and distance once the jodan player starts attacking is constantly decreasing.
As for men-nuki-do/men-kaeshi-do, no, not really, because the right hand will go down and cover the do. You can do men-nuki-gyaku-do, but very few have that technique down well enough to really be an option.
Suriage-men/kaeshi-men are a far better option, IMO.

As for the problem you describe in your previous post, it's not really any different from when facing an unwavering opponent in chudan. Once the chudan-aite crosses inside his 1-step distance, you have a problem, as you can't really protect yourself. However...the whole point is to *not* let the opponent wander into that area unopposed.

[b8amack]

There are 3 exposed targets in chudan, G-Chan. In jodan, there are 4 (or 5, depending on how you count do). That said, jodan looks more "very wide open" than it is. Sure, the do is calling to you like a newly-stuffed cookie jar, but you've got to get in close for that one, and you'll pay for the attempt. Tsuki-bu... jodan players love to swat down tsuki and take your men in the process. Kote are both open sure, but there are a few ways out of kote strikes. It's an open stance, sure, but it's not a season pass to raperville.

[Bokushingu]

Hello G-Chan. JSchmidt nailled it right on the money. I also agree with B8amack: they are open, but you have to get to them--once you start your attack, Jodan should "drop the hammer". It's all about the timing when facing experienced Kendoist or upper level Senshu. you have to be able to get their mind off your katate waza. and you have to anticipate: when they go from defensive mindset to offensive.

[rfoxmich]

"You also need a good understanding of maai and the aites as well"

And even more so to develop the ability to catch the Okori of the aite (see http://www.kendo-usa.org/reference/j_e_dictionary.htm#o if you don't know the word okori).

[Raffa]

Last saturday I had a very nice gijeiko with a strong jodan player, and so I tested some ideas I was thinking on (view them my limited exeperience), some were discarded and some confirmed as I menage to land a few good ippon.
G-chan, simply speaking, the major jodan defense is its attacking capability. The target you see open are in fact covered by an "offensive umbrella" generated by the katate men/kote skills of the aite. A chudan player becomes dangerous only if he menaged to slip under this "umbrella" while still having a decent kamae.
One way to achieve this result consist in using the elements indicated in kata 5 and 6 (in my opinion number 5 suggest how to deal with an incoming katate men attack and number 6 indicates how to slip under the "jodan offensive umbrella"), just put the two together and I think it would be a good start.

[DigitalDowntown]

I tried my jodan with a nito aite for the first time yesterday morning. As soon as I switched from chudan to jodan, he changed his kamae on me (of course) and left me feeling somewhat vulnerable and confused. His men was well protected and I don't yet have a good katate-kote so I became hesitant and the dynamics and seme of the match changed in his favor.

You also need a good understanding of maai and the aites as well. I'm just thinking out loud here Digital, please don't think I'm commenting on your jodan.

Please don't worry about commenting on my jodan, I'm very new to it, just started this year. I started the match in discussion from chudan but switched to jodan just to 'test it out' against nito. My aite later told me that jodan against nito should be super aggressive, more so than jodan against itto-chudan. However, after playing the match over in my head several times, I still don't see a good solution. Perhaps it's because I'm such a noob to jodan and this guy was clearly comfortable with his nito (he'll be competing at nationals using nito). Whatever my attack, he could effectively trap my shinai with his shoto, close, and strike. His 'anti-jodan kamae' also effectively protected his men, leaving me with what felt like small distant kotes for targets. I didn't experience the same problems from chudan however, I'm comfortable with a lot more waza from chudan and felt better prepared to deal with my aite's shoto. Also, my sensei likes nito himself, so I have some experience dealing with a nito aite from chudan.

Not to wander too far off topic (sorry), but can any of KW's more experienced jodan guys comment on the situation? Is it just better to abandon jodan no kamae altogether when your aite is using nito?

[JSchmidt]

Is it just better to abandon jodan no kamae altogether when your aite is using nito?

Given roughly equal ability, it's a stalemate. The jodan player has the additional reach and speed, the nito player the additional protection, but poses less of a threat than a chudan player.
Do, tsuki is not much of a threat, so you only really have to worry about the kote (and then not moving the hands away to open up the men).
I don't understand how he was able to trap your shinai with his shoto, close and strike, unless you were standing still after your attack.
Against nito, you need to be able to put pressure on multiple areas. Since jodan mostly only focuses on fairly simple kote & men, it's easy for the nito player to cover those, so you need to be a lot more creative in your approach...so, you need to back up the strong men/debana-men with attacks towards both kote and the odd do if you can get there safely.

As for changing kamae - If it's in a team situation and you need to win, then it's worth considering. Otherwise, why should you change kamae to accommodate his?

[DigitalDowntown]

I don't understand how he was able to trap your shinai with his shoto, close and strike, unless you were standing still after your attack.

Yeah, that was probably happening (standing still that is). Being a jodan noob, I'm constantly fighting to keep a calm mind and not 'think' so much during keiko from jodan. When I go from chudan to jodan, I go from feeling confident and in control to feeling a little confused and 'lost.' I know that I should be able to transition that seme from chudan into jodan easily, the stance encourages that very seme to come flooding out, but I feel like I'm 'faking it' somehow.

I was having a good time with the nito aite from chudan, we were having a really good exchange, so I switched to jodan a few minutes in to experiment with the kamae against nito. When he changed his kamae on me (no surprise), I honestly didn't know what to do, but I didn't want to give up and go back to chudan. I threw what few waza I know and have been practicing from jodan and tried my best to pressure him back to to-ma but he wasn't having any of it. He knew his range and he pretty much controlled the maai for the rest of the match. He'd close, I'd strike, he'd trap it and counter. Or, he'd slowly close, I'd try to pressure him into attacking for a debana, he'd see right threw my fragile sense of seme, and bam... he'd throw a successful shikake technique while avoiding or blocking my sorry attempt at a nuki from chika-ma (best I can muster up from jodan right now).

I'm sure my whole jodan/nito experience will turn into a great lesson for my jodan once I figure out what the right decisions would have been. Until then, my only real solution if we were competing would be to drop back into chudan no kamae. I have a feeling I'm missing something big in regards to being in jodan....
Is it the lack of waza in my jodan play book? I haven't been practicing any morote waza from jodan.
Is it the lack of comfort, the lack of confidence... the doubt, the sicknesses of kendo?
All of the above!? :shocked:

.... Ah well, I'm sure it's nothing more practice can't solve.
:D

[Bokushingu]

Yeah, that was probably happening (standing still that is). Being a jodan noob, I'm constantly fighting to keep a calm mind and not 'think' so much during keiko from jodan. When I go from chudan to jodan, I go from feeling confident and in control to feeling a little confused and 'lost.' I know that I should be able to transition that seme from chudan into jodan easily, the stance encourages that very seme to come flooding out, but I feel like I'm 'faking it' somehow.

I was having a good time with the nito aite from chudan, we were having a really good exchange, so I switched to jodan a few minutes in to experiment with the kamae against nito. When he changed his kamae on me (no surprise), I honestly didn't know what to do, but I didn't want to give up and go back to chudan. I threw what few waza I know and have been practicing from jodan and tried my best to pressure him back to to-ma but he wasn't having any of it. He knew his range and he pretty much controlled the maai for the rest of the match. He'd close, I'd strike, he'd trap it and counter. Or, he'd slowly close, I'd try to pressure him into attacking for a debana, he'd see right threw my fragile sense of seme, and bam... he'd throw a successful shikake technique while avoiding or blocking my sorry attempt at a nuki from chika-ma (best I can muster up from jodan right now).

I'm sure my whole jodan/nito experience will turn into a great lesson for my jodan once I figure out what the right decisions would have been. Until then, my only real solution if we were competing would be to drop back into chudan no kamae. I have a feeling I'm missing something big in regards to being in jodan....
Is it the lack of waza in my jodan play book? I haven't been practicing any morote waza from jodan.
Is it the lack of comfort, the lack of confidence... the doubt, the sicknesses of kendo?
All of the above!? :shocked:

.... Ah well, I'm sure it's nothing more practice can't solve.
:D

I think it's wonderful experience for you. (I believe)The Nito person you speak of was very instrumental in my Jodan. He cleaned up a lot of thing i had problems with in my second year of Jodan. He also has ton's of experience fighting Jodan Kenshi--so he's good to practice with. His Sensei/Dojo mate was a jodan on Team USA. eventually you will get the chance to jigeiko with Itokazu Sempai. His Nito feels like a 50 foot tidal wave coming in--scary but a lot of fun! For now because you are develoing the fundamentals of your Jodan, just focus on your form, seme & footwork from Jodan...you are going to get beatup alot before you can dish it out.