urp

[JByrd]

I ate a mukaezuki yesterday. It went in so hard and deep that I could taste it. Seriously, I still have the metallic taste in my mouth, as well as referred pain up into my ears, and down into my shoulders and chest. I feel OK except for the pain, but man! that was nasty. Let's be careful out there, boys and girls.

[rfoxmich]

Interesting that the ZNKR instruction manual specifically says not to do mukai-zuki due to its danger.

[JByrd]

Interesting that the ZNKR instruction manual specifically says not to do mukai-zuki due to its danger.

This one was accidental, I think. We just got jammed up and his kensen slid up the front of my dou.

[DigitalDowntown]

I hope you're ok Jonathan. For me, it helps to keep stretching my neck and shoulders throughout the day. Think I'll have a stretch break now actually....

Although we largely consider kendo a 'safe' martial art, the truth is it's still a contact sport. I'm sure that wasn't the first time someone landed a shot like that on you and I'm sure you've done the same to others over the years. Like you said, it was an accident.

I remember driving in (or trying to at least) a katate tsuki from tou-ma range on a sempai several months ago, he then went for a nuki men thinking I was coming in for men, side stepped and came forward HARD putting my kensen and both our body weights squarely into his shoulder. It left him with a monster spider bruise; it looked like a tattoo! Sensei called it "Tou-ma pokey waza." I actually think his wife may have even liked the bruise a little, it looked very cool, very bad-ass! ;)
That wasn't a typical keiko for us, but of course bruises do happen.
As you said, "Be careful out there" and stay in control.

[The great I AM]

I got a beast last night as well. Standard tsuki, not the nasty mukae shovel bomb that can happen, but it totally missed. I can still feel it now. Big throat pain today!

[b8amack]

I've been eating some weirdass tsuki ever since going back to jodan. Had a mofo try to tsuki me last night with both feet in the air, jumping forward like some sort of angry duck.

[The great I AM]

I've been eating some weirdass tsuki ever since going back to jodan. Had a mofo try to tsuki me last night with both feet in the air, jumping forward like some sort of angry duck.I tried Jodan for about 6 months a long while back, and got exactly the same. It's like people who have rarely, if ever, done tsuki properly in their life suddenly feel it is their god given right to injure your face and neck.

[ben]

...Seriously, I still have the metallic taste in my mouth...

Well if you're going to use REAL swords... b

[b8amack]

I tried Jodan for about 6 months a long while back, and got exactly the same. It's like people who have rarely, if ever, done tsuki properly in their life suddenly feel it is their god given right to injure your face and neck.

That's the feeling I get as well. The people who are throwing these wild tsuki NEVER throw tsuki against chudan. But it's like carte blanche, or a red flag or whatever...

[D'Artagnan]

...it's like carte blanche, or a red flag or whatever...

I like to think of it as a green light...

[b8amack]

I knew I was missing a colour.

[The great I AM]

I like to think of it as a green light...Yeah, and you can't do tsuki either.

[D'Artagnan]

Yeah, and you can't do tsuki either.

Nope, but I am pretty good at receiving it!

[The great I AM]

Nope, but I am pretty good at receiving it!Yes, yes you are.

[D'Artagnan]

Actually I have scored Morotedzuki (http://youtu.be/65PW7tnNxq4?t=2m38s) in Shiai here in Japan though...

[tango]

I was under the impression that if one goes into jodan, one is supposed to expect everybody and their brother to be throwing tsuki after tsuki...

??

[b8amack]

Yes? And?

[DigitalDowntown]

I was under the impression that if one goes into jodan, one is supposed to expect everybody and their brother to be throwing tsuki after tsuki...

??
Yeah, no surprise when you're in jodan. I think the complaint is that many people lean on tsuki-waza when they are facing jodan even if it's a waza they haven't taken the time to practice. As with any other waza, tsuki takes lots of practice especially in the control department. Too many kenshi maybe never practice tsuki until they face someone in jodan, then suddenly decide that's going to be their primary waza and they start stabbing without the proper te-no-uchi.

When I'm in jodan, most of the guys in my dojo focus more on hidari-kote or seme for oji-waza than tsuki. The kote is a closer, larger target than tsuki that you can 'recover' from more readily. You've also got a good chance to transition from hidari-kote into suriage-waza if jodan-aite starts to strike. Of course, that doesn't stop my dojo-mates from throwing a well timed, well placed tsuki from time to time. ;)

If you've got control with tsuki-waza, especially from tou-ma, and you're patient in your timing, it can be very effective against jodan. It's just a gamble otherwise, a miss will leave you completely vulnerable. I also think most experienced jodan guys are more prepared for tsuki than these inexperienced tsuki throwers anticipate.

[tango]

ah, ok.. I see what you're saying..

[Neil Gendzwill]

I like debana-men against jodan.

[JByrd]

I like debana-men against jodan.

That's an amazing technique to see, but I find the timing too difficult. It just feels like a losing proposition for me to try to "out debana" (thanks, Jakob) people who make their living on debana timing.

I do better against jodan with men suriage men, using ura (right side of my shinai) to do the suriage. It seems like many jodan players follow through after men uchi with their left arm very high, making it difficult for me to strike from their left side after suriage with omote. I end up hitting their left shoulder. I think men suriage men actually works a little better for me against jodan than chudan because jodan players typically strike katate men, from a larger interval of distance. That little bit of extra distance helps me get my strike in before they get too close. I really suck against jodan, so my thoughts aren't worth much.

[JSchmidt]

I was under the impression that if one goes into jodan, one is supposed to expect everybody and their brother to be throwing tsuki after tsuki...

??

Yes..and no.
A couple of points:
- As Gibbo and B8amack points out, the majority of the kendo population can't accurately land a tsuki
- Tsuki against jodan is a high-risk strategy as it leaves you very vulnerable.

The problem lies in the common, but fraught advice "Use tsuki against jodan to unsettle him". Here's a newsflash:
Jodan people are very rarely unsettled by tsuki.
Yeah, sure if you face an opponent, who you know got a strong katate-tsuki (and if they have that, they usually have other strong techniques in their arsenal and you'll be wary already), it can be an issue, but the average joe (be it junior, senior or sensei) rarely has that.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's an amazing technique to see, but I find the timing too difficult.I probably need to practice against a better class of jodan players and get my ass kicked on this one. I was hoping to have a go at Jakob in Vancouver but things didn't work out.

Yeah, sure if you face an opponent, who you know got a strong katate-tsuki (and if they have that, they usually have other strong techniques in their arsenal and you'll be wary already), it can be an issue, but the average joe (be it junior, senior or sensei) rarely has that.You've got some guys locally who would hit my tsuki-dare all day long were I to try my slow-ass jodan on them. How's your luck defending tsuki from Suguru or Dean?

[JSchmidt]

They don't actually use it all that much. (Although Suguru in general pulls me around like a puppet on strings).

As for debana-men against jodan, it's a bit like attacking men on tall people. If I lose to debana-men, I know I have completely failed to impose myself and are giving away my timing and allowing the opponent in too close. (In short, demoralizing).

[Neil Gendzwill]

If I lose to debana-men, I know I have completely failed to impose myself and are giving away my timing and allowing the opponent in too close. (In short, demoralizing).That's the idea - pressure, pressure, pressure, make him go first, hit him kind of overtop of the hands as he comes forward.