If not a hobby, then what?

[Anorymous]

"I never really appreciate anyone trying to push the hobby label off on me. I'm sensitive."
So said Charles Lockhar, not twelve hours ago, in another thread. So, that got me pondering the titular question: if kendou is not a hobby, then what is it?

A popular online English dictionary (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hobby) defines the word "hobby" as "An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure". Thinking each of those one by one, most fit: kendou is not a job for most of us (so it's "outside our regular occupation") and it certainly is enjoyable. Thus, the question boils down to: Is pleasure the primary reason we do kendou?

According to the ZNKR, the purpose of kendou is "to forge and mould the human character through the applications of the principles of the katana" (or something close to that). I heartily agree with that sentence. However, no-one I know stepped first into the doujou thinking "I'm here to mould my character"; everyone started for fun.

Then, what about next? If kendou does at some point stop being a hobby, then what does it become? A job? Few people are so lucky. A philosophy? Doesn't sound like it. A way of life? That doesn't sound accurate either; there are innumerable other activities (many hobbies included) that can forge one's character just as well.

Then, is kendou nothing but a hobby? I don't think that's accurate either. That would seem to imply that its value is only recreational, which we've established that it isn't. At the least, I would call it a "very serious hobby". Kendouka aren't the only people in the world for whom their hobby is very serious, after all.

(Before I conclude, a few words on the word "play": I don't know how the it's used in English, but in Greek, if something has rules and it pits human against human, you are said to play it. We can wax and wane about the warriors of the past and how they put their lives at stake; at the end of it all, we abide by rules and they didn't. That's why that verb never seemed demeaning to me--or any of my sensei or doujou-mates, for that matter.)

With that, I'll leave the discussion to you. In order to keep the thread from getting derailed too fast, however, I ask you this: If you think that the word "hobby" is pejorative then, at the start of your post (or even in its title) please include up to three words that, in your opinion, describe your attitude towards kendou better than the word "hobby".

[Gilligan]

Serious hobby+++++

I dont know how to describe it either. Many of us may have started for different reasons, mine was for rehab. And when we started I guess we didnt know how long or serious this activity would become. But the nature of kendo for those that stick to it for any number of years is like something that attaches itself to us (like a benifical parasite) grows and changes us, we become humble (some of the time) yet it gives us confidence in our daily lives. it gets inside us, our way of thinking changes for the better usually. In my case anyway it has kind of controlled my life over the years. moving cities to be among better, stronger opponents. got me away from my high school friends (potheads the lot of em, and in the same routines as when we were kids) it choose new friends for me etc.

it has probably changed us all in different ways, but changed us all in some ways.
Is there a word for such an activity? (beer talking tonight).

[JSchmidt]

I think it's a houbby

[b8amack]

Here's another definition for you, Aunourymous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kendo).

Note the spelling.

[Electronegative]

Here's another definition for you, Aunourymous (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/kendo).

Note the spelling.

l o l

[Charles Lockhar]

So said Charles Lockhar, not twelve hours ago, in another thread. So, that got me pondering the titular question: if kendou is not a hobby, then what is it?

It's actually "Lockhart," the user name thingy cut off the 't' when I created the account, and it took me a while [months] to notice.


Then, what about next? If kendou does at some point stop being a hobby, then what does it become? A job? Few people are so lucky. A philosophy? Doesn't sound like it. A way of life? That doesn't sound accurate either; there are innumerable other activities (many hobbies included) that can forge one's character just as well.

Does it have to be an "all or nothing?" I'd guess (ie talking out my hindparts) that most people don't live kendo as a philosophy and/or way of life. Does that mean that some of what kendo is can't contribute to one's philosophy or way of life without being a dominant factor? I think so.

And while there are many activities that can "forge one's character" (sounds a bit heavy), I don't think a lot of them start out from that goal and continue to follow it. My brother-in-law (wife's brother) is heavy into darts. Really heavy, competes locally & I think nationally now, both individual and team play, back in Japan. As much as he's into it, I don't think he really ever gives "character forging" much thought at all. It's just a hobby, he does it for fun, and it gets him out more than sitting at home watching teevee and drinking beer does.

Kendo can be many things, and one of those is a hobby, people can just do it for fun, the same way that people do bowling for fun. A young friend of mine did kendo for three or four years, very talented kid, was very into it. But when he moved back to the mainland they didn't have kendo in his area, so he switched focus to volleyball, and now he does volleyball. And that's great.

But because someone views their kendo experience as a hobby, does that define (ie limit, constrain) someone else's kendo experience to being a hobby? I don't think so.

-Charles

[MikeW]

Well to be quite honest I'd say kendo is definitely more than just a hobby for me. Sometimes it does actually feel like a job. I don’t just go to the dojo, train and go home. In addition to training I am the faculty adviser and instructor for the UNC Chapel club, I am on the board of directors and a founding member of Triangle Kendo & Iaido, I am an officer on the board of directors for the South Eastern US Kendo Federation, I made and maintain the web pages for all the above, I organize enbu for our local club, our local tournament as well as other bits and pieces. I train about 6 hours per week, I put in at least that much, sometimes more, on the other stuff every week. That said, I still love it for many reasons. I’m more of a kihon guy than a shiai guy and I like the spirit/body connection and the way kendo betters you as a person (at least I think it betters me). I also like the connections with people locally and from around the world.

[UnimportantHero]

"However, no-one I know stepped first into the doujou thinking "I'm here to mould my character"; everyone started for fun."

I did. Well not in those exact words but it is a major reason I keep going back. I have fun mind you but fun is not the first reason I started.

[DigitalDowntown]

Kendo for me is more than I can sum up in three words or less.

I started kendo with an open mind, but initially against my will.
My father (who is Japanese) gave me the choice of starting kendo or judo as a teenager because I was a teenager and budo was a part of growing up, it was 'character building.' My father had been 2-dan in kendo when he was younger, his father a 5-dan in judo, and at that point in my life, I only had limited karate experience as a kid.

Kendo grew on me from the first day. I do it primarily because it's fun, both then and now. It's a major part of living a healthy lifestyle for me. It's both a mental and physical exercise. It encourages discipline and work ethic, it builds confidence and social manners. You meet new friends, and did I mention it's fun?

Kendo isn't the only sport I regularly practice but it's the only one I can say has really helped to shape who I am.

[Bokushingu]

Well I tell New Grad respiratory Therapist that patient care is very dynamic. a patients condition can change very quickly. Never expect they will stay the same throughout a 12 hour shift--just be prepared. During their hospital stay, your goal is to improve their condition which will either progress or degrade.

Life and people are very dynamic. The reason a person started may not be the reason they continue. they dive deeper into it or move away from it. I think my reason for starting kendo is not my reason for staying in it. However, i can say it does give me a since of well being, challenges & enjoyment.

as for designating what it is depends on the person. i know some sensei that feel it is duty or a must and they take the future of kendo in the US very seriously so much they sacrifice much of their own personal lives...there are some that just practice once a week and pretty much only during the jigeiko part. i guess how you as an individual feel about your kendo designates what it is to you.

I think for me it is more than a hobby. I feel a since of committment for my dojo needs and to be a reference source to the kendoist below me. But for myself there is the excitment of one on one match in every jigeiko, shigeiko, etc... there's the challenge of improving and competing with those on a higher level. and there is a sense of accomplishment after surviving a class that just keeps getting harder for me(thanks Sensei for constantly raising the hurdles).

Also Kendo requires reflection. anything that requires reflection usually is something the person respects and takes seriously. I'm told the reason Kids are required to take either Kendo and Judo in school is to develop ethics. I guess it's like school team sports in the US. starts as fun and a hobby but quickly transforms into something very serious that requires committment & reflection once they decide to join a team.

the things i consider as hobbies are strictly for my entertainment: R/C aircrafts, Mmorpg Video games, sudoku, computer mods, collecting blu ray & dvds.

[Shinsengumi77]

Well since language is arbitrary it's hard (impossible?) to give an answer that satisfies everyone. I call it a hobby when talking literally, but not when considering 'hobby' in the more colloquial sense, where it's considered a less-serious undertaking, possibly just to pass time. I do not consider it a philosophy, which is often confused with a 'creed' or 'way of life,' which is incorrect; it may be, however, one of the latter.

[dillon]

Kendo is (IMHO) shugyo (or if you prefer, shuugyou): 修行 - training with a goal towards gaining depth of knowledge (perhaps of oneself)

Not to be confused with: 修業 - (academic) learning

I often hear Japanese use the term shugyo when they have to do something a bit difficult, e.g. take the stairs instead of the escalator/lift or even just sweating out in the office without air-con because of the electricity shortage. They're kind of joking of course.

[psycho4speed]

S.M. Love receiving and giving pain.

[tagonagy]

I think that the word that best captures my relationship with kendo is "passion." Kendo is a passion.

[Gin]

Process ..... Experience.

[LarsCW]

As I haven't been able to do the physical part of kendo I have kept working on the mental part. It all is so unconciously and basically is a part of me. The medative part is such that it has become a way to make pain more toleratable. When things happen at the office I can react in a more calm way then when i would before I started kendo.

To me kendo has always been more then a hobby, so when people say they experiance the same i for sure can understand it.

The effects kendo had on me have been such great that it's more something that molds you like when you fold a piece of paper doing origami, which I do think is a hobby. I do think that the way it shapes you as a person depends alot on your sensei and even dojo mates.

Before I have done kendo I have done karate for 3 years at 2 different dojo's. The first dojo it was all fun and jokes, it was like the mental part was stripped out. I then went to the dojo where my sensei had studied and his sensei did teach both the mental and physical. That is a really big difference. Being able to teach the technique or being able to teach the whole budo.

[Anime12478]

I am very involved in the Kendo community here in the following ways:

I practice 3-5 days per week, depending on the time of year and how well my body is treating me
I am the secretary for the ECUSKF (not really much of an involved role, persay. But it's something)
I participate in 3-4 tournaments per year and I'll go to promotional exams when I'm eligble
I'll help out the federation in whatever capacity I can, whether it's just making things run smoothly or something along the lines of dojo building or general awareness of Kendo.


Despite taking my training very seriously, quite simply, practicing Kendo and Iaido is fun for me. There are all these benefits of improving myself and blah, blah, blah, but it really comes more as a byproduct of my training than something I'm actually seeking. Those auxiliary benefits that I get from practice is great and all, but if I'm not having fun, what's the point? If self improvement was the main focus, other activities like sewing or American Football could also fill that gap, but nothing would happen if I was bored out of my mind. When I started Kendo back in 2003, it was mainly because it was something interesting to do so I wasn't just studying all the time, and they happened to get me before the Aikido club :P. I really don't think that any of that has changed. While my understanding of what Kendo is has exponentially increased since that time, I still go because it's something interesting for me to do, so that I'm not just going to work and sitting on my ass the rest of the time.

Despite all of that, I consider Kendo a hobby that I'm very involved in. Going to practice, attending tournaments, exams and seiminars, and helping out wherever I can, whenever I can all comes out of my own pocket with my own free time. It's something that I do with my own free time that doesn't pay the bills. I do have a job that takes care of that role though, and I've had to forego practices when things got too hectic there.

I might be oversimplifying things for some people, but Kendo is fun and it's considered just a hobby of mine, as much as playing video games is considered a hobby to millions of men and women around the world. If I had to quit Kendo, it would happen with me kicking and screaming on my way out the door, and even then, I'd probably sneak in a practice or two when nobody is looking. A hobby is something that I'm willing to do. A job is something I'm required to do.

[Anorymous]

I think I have a grasp of the issue:

On the one hand, kendou is an activity that is highly enjoyable.
On the other hand, it requires high amounts of sacrifice and dedication.

Most disagreements concern whether this fits the definition of "hobby" or not. I think it does, but that's a linguistic discussion mostly.

[rfoxmich]

You get out of kendo what you put in. If it's a hobby to you, it's a hobby. If it's a sport to you, it's a sport. If it's a way of self development to you then that's what it is. For each person kendo can be something different.
As for what kendo is intended to be...well I keek coming back to http://www.kendo-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm

[Hisham]

You get out of kendo what you put in. If it's a hobby to you, it's a hobby. If it's a sport to you, it's a sport. If it's a way of self development to you then that's what it is. For each person kendo can be something different.
As for what kendo is intended to be...well I keek coming back to http://www.kendo-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/concept-of-Kendo.htm

I totally agree, i myself would've said it this way so there is no confusion about what we're talking about:"You get out of kendou what you put in. If it's a hobby to you, it's a hobby. If it's a sport to you, it's a sport. If it's a way of self development to you then that's what it is. For each person kendou can be something different.
As four what kendou is intended to be...well I keep coming back to http://www.kendou-fik.org/english-page/english-page2/councept-ouf-Kendo.htm"

The thing is i don't understand why my corrected link doesn't work.:puzzled:

[pgsmith]

You get out of kendo what you put in. If it's a hobby to you, it's a hobby. If it's a sport to you, it's a sport. If it's a way of self development to you then that's what it is.
While I agree completely with your statement that you get out of it what you put in to it, I just don't understand why some people get their panties all wadded up about the word 'hobby'. When you get right down to it, anything that you do that you aren't making a living at is a hobby. Why should people get upset because someone else refers to it as a hobby? What difference does it make to your approach or training if someone else calls kendo your hobby? Why does it make a difference to you how someone else perceives your training?

I just don't get it. :)

[JByrd]

While I agree completely with your statement that you get out of it what you put in to it, I just don't understand why some people get their panties all wadded up about the word 'hobby'. When you get right down to it, anything that you do that you aren't making a living at is a hobby. Why should people get upset because someone else refers to it as a hobby? What difference does it make to your approach or training if someone else calls kendo your hobby? Why does it make a difference to you how someone else perceives your training?

I just don't get it. :)

I'm with Paul. Words like "hobby" and "amateur" have somehow acquired connotations that are out of line with their original meaning. Amateur means you do it for the love of it. I like Webster's definition of a hobby as, "a favorite and ever-recurring theme of discourse, thought, or effort." Somehow, people have come to think those terms mean, "not serious," or "not skillful."

[yoda-waza]

Hobby: I play kendo.
Lifestyle: I practice kendo.

[JSchmidt]

Important announcement. If a reader dislikes me for not acting like him/her, that is fine. If, furthermore, he/she wishes to express that displeasure, he/she should by all accounts feel free. However, please do not make off-topic posts in unrelated threads about that. That's what personal messages are for, and visitor messages, and neg-rep remarks. In the relative absence of KW moderators, let's try our best to keep the forums tidy.

Dude, if you don't want people to comment on your signature line, which is very much a part of your post, then maybe shouldn't put arrogant and self-righteous crap in them?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hobby: I play kendo.
Lifestyle: I practice kendo.BS. I say play all the time. So does my instructor. If you'd like to dismiss his 50 years of training as a hobby, be my guest.

And Anourymous, if you weren't aware I am a moderator and am present quite a bit of the time. I just choose to use a light hand. Rigid moderation kills discussion.

[yoda-waza]

Play and practice are not mutually exclusive. I would never dismiss what your instructor says nor discount his 50 years of training. By all means, play all the time. I hope it's okay with you that we practice, too, without BS, of course ;-)

[Neil Gendzwill]

I don't mean use all your time to play, I mean that I say "play" when referring to the activity of kendo. As do many Japanese people, it's a common translation. We've had this discussion lots. People get their shorts in a knot over saying "play".

[yoda-waza]

No shorts-in-knots here. I play kendo, too, it's just that "hobby" sounds more like - I dunno - say, stamp collecting. Then again, there may be a creed for stamp collecting like there is for kendo and I'm just ignorant of it's lifestyle implications :-)

[pgsmith]

No shorts-in-knots here. I play kendo, too, it's just that "hobby" sounds more like - I dunno - say, stamp collecting.
So, do you get your shorts in a knot when someone compares kendo to stamp collecting, and tells you it's just another hobby?

[DigitalDowntown]

So, do you get your shorts in a knot when someone compares kendo to stamp collecting, and tells you it's just another hobby?
It would be interesting to hear from someone who does BOTH, stamp collecting & kendo.

I know nothing about how stamp collecting may relate to character building, but I'm sure some of the more serious stamp collectors out there would argue that their hobby is at least as serious if not more so than kendo. No matter how good your kendo is, there aren't fortunes to be made or lost doing it. Just as with swords, many of the stamps out there are prized historical artifacts.

[yoda-waza]

So, do you get your shorts in a knot when someone compares kendo to stamp collecting, and tells you it's just another hobby?I repeat: No shorts-in-knots here. There aren't any under the hakama to knot up anyway. I didn't say kendo is not a hobby. As I implied to Gendzwill sensei, I don't look at kendo as just this or just that, i.e., defined with finality by a single label. To answer your question: I love my stamp collection and don't mind at all if someone tells me that is just another hobby :-)

[Charles Lockhar]

When you get right down to it, anything that you do that you aren't making a living at is a hobby.

I don't see that as a logical statement. I'm a parent, is being a dad my hobby? I don't believe that the term "hobby" has all that much mileage. Per Merriam-Webster - hobby: a pursuit outside one's regular occupation engaged in especially for relaxation. Hobby implies a much lower level of depth and commitment than many people are willing to agree with.


Why should people get upset because someone else refers to it as a hobby?

Who's getting upset? AFAIK, we're all just chatting an on online forum. Oh the outrage? I'm thinking not.


What difference does it make to your approach or training if someone else calls kendo your hobby? Why does it make a difference to you how someone else perceives your training?

For the first part, absolutely zero. For the second part, it does not make any difference.

However, when people start talking about their opinions and views, then it does start to matter. To ignore the value and impact of reputation would be naive.

-Charles

[Charles Lockhar]

It would be interesting to hear from someone who does BOTH, stamp collecting & kendo.

I know nothing about how stamp collecting may relate to character building, but I'm sure some of the more serious stamp collectors out there would argue that their hobby is at least as serious if not more so than kendo. No matter how good your kendo is, there aren't fortunes to be made or lost doing it. Just as with swords, many of the stamps out there are prized historical artifacts.

I am not a stamp collector, nor do I play one on television.

However, I do have hobbies. Beer-brewing is one of them. To me, it is purely a hobby, an activity I pursue for enjoyment and relaxation, and really not much else. I mean, beer, yeah, but I think that loops back to the enjoyment and relaxation. It's neat to try to get different qualities out of different ingredients, different yeasts. I've put a lot of time into it, and I've learned a lot, and I really like it. But for me, it's just a hobby. I don't do it with a passion, or with the idea I'm going to get something else out of it, or that it's going to make me a better person, or anything like that. For me, it's just a hobby.

But for me, my pursuits and intentions in kendo are an entirely different endeavor. If I get tired of making beer, I just quit until I feel like doing it again. If I'm really hating kendo on a practice day, I drag my hiney in anyway.

Just saying.

-Charles

[b8amack]

I am not a stamp collector, nor do I play one on television.

However, I do have hobbies. Beer-brewing is one of them. To me, it is purely a hobby, an activity I pursue for enjoyment and relaxation, and really not much else. I mean, beer, yeah, but I think that loops back to the enjoyment and relaxation. It's neat to try to get different qualities out of different ingredients, different yeasts. I've put a lot of time into it, and I've learned a lot, and I really like it. But for me, it's just a hobby. I don't do it with a passion, or with the idea I'm going to get something else out of it, or that it's going to make me a better person, or anything like that. For me, it's just a hobby.

But for me, my pursuits and intentions in kendo are an entirely different endeavor. If I get tired of making beer, I just quit until I feel like doing it again. If I'm really hating kendo on a practice day, I drag my hiney in anyway.

Just saying.

-Charles

It's a hobby you aren't passionate or obsessed about, then. Unlike kendo. It's still a hobby. By any definition of the word hobby that exists in the English language, kendo is a hobby. I know someone's going to scrounge the internet for a definition that doesn't quite match kendo... Even if you are one of those people who make their living teaching kendo (and they do exist) or teach/do kendo as part of their jobs, it's probably still a hobby. If they weren't so employed, they'd probably still be doing kendo, anyway. And if not, then fuck them.

As far as the "lifestyle" argument that YW is making; eating Kraft Dinner with ketchup every night is a lifestyle. Don't front like there's anything more ennobling about the word "lifestyle" than there is about "hobby".

[Charles Lockhar]

It's a hobby you aren't passionate or obsessed about, then. Unlike kendo. It's still a hobby. By any definition of the word hobby that exists in the English language, kendo is a hobby.

All the "mainstream" definitions assign purpose of the activity [pleasure or relaxation] as being the reason for the activity. Is that why all kendoka do kendo, for pleasure and relaxation? Can't be something more, huh?


I know someone's going to scrounge the internet for a definition that doesn't quite match kendo...

A hobby is a small Old World falcon. And therefore kendo is not a hobby. Wouldn't want you to be disappointed.


As far as the "lifestyle" argument that YW is making; eating Kraft Dinner with ketchup every night is a lifestyle.

I buy my Lifestyles in a 48-pack.

-Charles

[b8amack]

All the "mainstream" definitions assign purpose of the activity [pleasure or relaxation] as being the reason for the activity. Is that why all kendoka do kendo, for pleasure and relaxation? Can't be something more, huh?

It sure can be something more, just like every other hobby out there. What it can't be is something else.




A hobby is a small Old World falcon. And therefore kendo is not a hobby. Wouldn't want you to be disappointed.

I will settle for being amused, just this once. ;)


I buy my Lifestyles in a 48-pack.

I keep waiting for kendo on the Lifestyle network. Instead all I get is food shows and shopping.

[LarsCW]

I suggest you all go have a shiai and the winner has the last verdict:-) ofcourse with a pint.

[DigitalDowntown]

If I'm really hating kendo on a practice day, I drag my hiney in anyway.

I think that pretty much sums up what elevates kendo beyond just 'hobby' status for some of us.

[0746]

Hobby is a personal enough term for people to have different ideas on its meaning. Generally, there is a level of commitment, be it low or high and there is some personal benefits associated with it, which is primarily recreation but is often other things. Some people take them as if it was their life and some people just see it to be recreational distraction. What distinguishes it from work or other commitments is that you are not legally bound and don't get paid money or food for it. Because there are no clearly defined limits apart from that, you will basically have to make your own mind about it as to whether what you do is a hobby or not and it wont matter a bit.

[JByrd]

If I get tired of making beer, I just quit until I feel like doing it again.

And then drink what? Water?

You have convinced me that some hobbies are intrinsically more serious than others.

[JSchmidt]

I think that pretty much sums up what elevates kendo beyond just 'hobby' status for some of us.

Sorry, I have other hobbies where I do the same....most of the time, because I know that I'll most likely end up enjoying it anyway and even if I do, it'll still benefit me in the long run.

[pgsmith]

I absolutely agree that some hobbies are much more serious than others. However, I still think it's odd that some people get upset because they figure that their dedication to their hobby should make kendo something more in everyone's else's eyes. Therefore, I am going to refer to kendo as a hobby from this point forward as a public service to those people. :)


I'm a parent, is being a dad my hobby?
People tend to concentrate hard on improving their abilities in their chosen hobbies, and they do a lot of studying and practicing in order to do so. I know a lot of parents that don't do this regarding raising their children. They tend to assume that it will just 'happen', and I've dealt with a large number of children that showed the results of this attitude.. So, I certainly hope you approach being a dad as your hobby so that you will continue to improve at it.

[Charles Lockhar]

I absolutely agree that some hobbies are much more serious than others. However, I still think it's odd that some people get upset because they figure that their dedication to their hobby should make kendo something more in everyone's else's eyes.

This implication that folks are "getting upset" is a weak tactic, aimed at implying the person who disagrees with you is being less rational, and therefore has a weaker argument.

Once again, who's getting upset?


People tend to concentrate hard on improving their abilities in their chosen hobbies, and they do a lot of studying and practicing in order to do so. I know a lot of parents that don't do this regarding raising their children. They tend to assume that it will just 'happen', and I've dealt with a large number of children that showed the results of this attitude.. So, I certainly hope you approach being a dad as your hobby so that you will continue to improve at it.

Kids are a Lifestyles issue. All my kids source from a lack of Lifestyles. If it was just a hobby, I could quit for a while...

-Charles

[pgsmith]

This implication that folks are "getting upset" is a weak tactic, aimed at implying the person who disagrees with you is being less rational, and therefore has a weaker argument.
My implication that folks are 'getting upset' comes from the fact that enough folks 'got upset' to cause an entire thread to be devoted to the subject. I think you're trying really hard to elevate this mole hill. Sounds to me like you need a hobby, maybe something to help you relieve some of this stress you seem to be having over the subject. Have you tried kendo? I've heard it makes a great hobby! :)


If it was just a hobby, I could quit for a while...
There are, unfortunately, a great many that do.

[annoraderenart@]

Kendo is for me a grand passion - just under my feelings for my husband.
Grand passion cannot be ignored. Delays in training become frustrating as if separated from your most beloved spouse for a long period of time.
Passion drives you when a part of you wants to go home and curl up with a book.
Passion drives you when you are sore and don't want to go to practice.
Passion drives you to keep you from the many and varied "reasons" people give up kendo.

[Charles Lockhar]

My implication that folks are 'getting upset' comes from the fact that enough folks 'got upset' to cause an entire thread to be devoted to the subject.

Oh. I didn't really interpret it that way, I just assumed (incorrectly?) that, like me, most folks stuck in front of a computer for copious amounts of time and needs a distraction, so they shoot the bull via forum blah blah. I suffer from tunnel vision.


I think you're trying really hard to elevate this mole hill. Sounds to me like you need a hobby, maybe something to help you relieve some of this stress you seem to be having over the subject. Have you tried kendo? I've heard it makes a great hobby! :)

As hobbies go, it's just not for me. I don't find it relaxing, and while I do enjoy it at times, for me it's just not fun enough for me to pursue it as a hobby. Maybe therapy would be a better word. The bennies of having someone coaching me through getting my own butt back in gear when I've hit the wall seem to be paying off in other areas.


There are, unfortunately, a great many that do.

They lack my drive and ambition... ;o)

-Charles

[kendokamax]

a waste of money
a waste of time
smelly



...for some people

[nebosuke]

If hobby sounds too lighthearted, how about avocation?

[Mako]

...while I do enjoy it at times, for me it's just not fun enough for me to pursue it as a "hobby".

This is what it is like for me too. I find Keiko and Kata are more hard work than fun. Shiai is stressful not pleasurable. All the sweating is unpleasant too.

[Charles Lockhar]

This is what it is like for me too. I find Keiko and Kata are more hard work than fun. Shiai is stressful not pleasurable. All the sweating is unpleasant too.

And as someone mentioned, yea gods, the smell....

-Charles

[yoda-waza]

So, our hobby is smelly, sweaty, stressful and hard work. Where's the fun? No wonder our newbies drop like flies.

[Mako]

Hobby : "An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure"

I dont care for a word that would place Kendo on equal terms with trivial pursuits like collecting stamps, dolls, solving jigsaw puzzles or playing golf.:cheeky:

Some people like to collect overpriced name brand sneakers as a hobby, a pathetic waste of time and money.

The broad and vague definition quoted creates a connection between the Kendo and sneaker collecting when there is really nothing in common between the two.
I dont think Kendo has much in common with a whole host of other things that many people find intresting to do in their spare time outside of their paid work either.

Like drinking alcohol to excess, taking drugs and gambling to name some popular choices that would also fit the definition quoted.

So I object to referring to Kendo as a hobby rather than calling it a martial art, shugyo or sport.

[Mako]

So, our hobby is smelly, sweaty, stressful and hard work. Where's the fun? No wonder our newbies drop like flies.

Actually, I have told noobs that Kendo is about taking all the fun out of swordplay.

But I will say Isshu Jiai is fun!

[Charles Lockhar]

Hobby : "An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure"

In Soviet Russia, hobby does you.

-Charles

[yoda-waza]

Well, Mako, some here have no issue with kendo described as a hobby. To me, kendo is not just a hobby for solely pleasurable pursuit, however, my shorts are not in knots over the description, as I've stated before. We do kendo because we like to do it, don't we? On the other hand, I can't think of many hobbies that consider a creed necessary to define itself nor do I think that activities that involve the Japanese concept of "do" are adequately described as hobbies in the Western sense of the word.

[baysun]

Kendo is for me a grand passion - just under my feelings for my husband.
Grand passion cannot be ignored. Delays in training become frustrating as if separated from your most beloved spouse for a long period of time.
Passion drives you when a part of you wants to go home and curl up with a book.
Passion drives you when you are sore and don't want to go to practice.
Passion drives you to keep you from the many and varied "reasons" people give up kendo.

------------


That's the spirit!
And I love guitar play'n too!!!!

[Karaken]

It's an obsession, you'd think you can stop any time if you want to but..

[LarsCW]

Obsessions aren't healthy though, while the rush you get from kendo can be just as good as having a few beers.

[pgsmith]

So, sounds like everyone is saying that a hobby should NOT be called a hobby if it's difficult? Am I understanding things correctly here?

[LarsCW]

So, sounds like everyone is saying that a hobby should NOT be called a hobby if it's difficult? Am I understanding things correctly here?

For some it might be a hobby but for those for who it's more of a lifestyle a hobby takes the value off from their lifestyle.

[pgsmith]

For some it might be a hobby but for those for who it's more of a lifestyle a hobby takes the value off from their lifestyle.
How can what I say take anything from their 'lifestyle'? That's the crux of what I'm having trouble understanding.

[Charles Lockhar]

So, sounds like everyone is saying that a hobby should NOT be called a hobby if it's difficult? Am I understanding things correctly here?

I think people are disagreeing with your definition and application of the word "hobby." These crazy amateur etymologist types, what can you do?

-Charles

[Wraith]

It's just a label, or as has been said elswhere when talking about grades 'it's just a number'.

Do we care?

[pgsmith]

These crazy amateur etymologist types, what can you do?
Etymology is a bit staid as a hobby. They should take up a more vigorous and exciting hobby like kendo! :)

[Karaken]

Hobby is a girl who you like to be with and have fun but if you don't see her you might miss her
Life style is a girl who you like to be with and you need her and if you don't see her then you're missing part of your life
Obsession is a girl that you're madly in love with whether you know it or not and when you don't see her you can't breathe and feel like you're dying
Madness is a girl that you know you must not be involved with but you don't have a choice and you do whatever it takes to be with her even though it's no longer fun.

Kendo for me, is an obsession.

[yoda-waza]

I might add that if your obsession leads into having kendo, then practice safe kendo. Always wear protection.

[b8amack]

I thought kendo emphasized humility. This thread waxes a little too magniloquent, and is getting uncomfortable to read. "It's not a hobby, it's an obsession!" What's next, "love affair"? Slow your roll.

[pgsmith]

This thread waxes a little too magniloquent ...

Nice word! Is vocabulary a hobby? :)

[b8amack]

Absolutely.

[Charles Lockhar]

Etymology is a bit staid as a hobby. They should take up a more vigorous and exciting hobby like kendo! :)

Except all too often they find that it's quit being a hobby, and become something more . And then they end up needing to find something to do for fun and relaxation ;o) Back to square one!

I suggest naked skydiving. I used to suggest naked surfing, but then there was that time I landed on that reef...

-Charles

[pgsmith]

I suggest naked skydiving.
Wouldn't want anyone to accidentally beat themselves to death! :)

[b8amack]

Except all too often they find that it's quit being a hobby, and become something more.

Like, a job? And then they do their "hobby" on the weekends. Like my grandpa, who was a mechanic for the department of highways his whole career, and after work... he built engines/cars. For a hobby.

[Charles Lockhar]

Like, a job? And then they do their "hobby" on the weekends. Like my grandpa, who was a mechanic for the department of highways his whole career, and after work... he built engines/cars. For a hobby.

I continue to disagree with your interpretation of the definition for the word "hobby." Which follows on to me disagreeing with your bipolar worldview of occupation and hobby.

But all in all I'm pretty sure we're both ok with that.

-Charles

[b8amack]

I disagree with your definition of bipolar, which applies more to your own interpretation of hobby. But while we're swinging loaded words about, I continue to disagree with your hagiographic interpretation of your own hobbies.

[JByrd]

If kendo is something more than a hobby, what makes it so? Is the special ingredient in kendo, or is it in the person who does kendo?

If that special something is inherent in kendo, even the most casual, "show up once in a month and put is a half assed effort," kind of student is engaged in something more than a just hobby. At least when they show up. Does that sound about right?

The other possibility is that the thing that elevates kendo beyond a "mere hobby" is simply the approach that we take to kendo. If that is the case, then anything we take that seriously is more than a hobby, and it would be arrogant to think that someone else could not possibly be as serious about their hobby as we are about ours.

When it comes to serious hobbies, though, I'd say look at the mountaineers, backcountry skiers, whitewater kayakers, etc. Those people are really risking something. You make a bad decision out there, and you're not worried about coming home with bruises; you're worried about not coming home at all.

[pgsmith]

... I'd say look at the mountaineers, backcountry skiers, whitewater kayakers, etc. ...
Dang adrenaline junkies, the lot of them! :)

[yoda-waza]

If kendo is something more than a hobby, what makes it so? Is the special ingredient in kendo, or is it in the person who does kendo? Well, whatever it is, it apparently engenders a lot of argument. The special ingredient in kendo is indeed what the person sees in it for themselves. I feel the creed of kendo was meant to define its pursuit as more than a hobby, but others may see differently.


If that special something is inherent in kendo, even the most casual, "show up once in a month and put is a half assed effort," kind of student is engaged in something more than a just hobby. At least when they show up. Does that sound about right? Uh, no. Half assed effort doesn't even last for hobbies.


The other possibility is that the thing that elevates kendo beyond a "mere hobby" is simply the approach that we take to kendo. If that is the case, then anything we take that seriously is more than a hobby, and it would be arrogant to think that someone else could not possibly be as serious about their hobby as we are about ours.

When it comes to serious hobbies, though, I'd say look at the mountaineers, backcountry skiers, whitewater kayakers, etc. Those people are really risking something. You make a bad decision out there, and you're not worried about coming home with bruises; you're worried about not coming home at all.Well then, it's settled: the defining characteristic distinguishing mere hobby from serious hobby is an elevated risk of serious injury or death.

[Charles Lockhar]

I disagree with your definition of bipolar, which applies more to your own interpretation of hobby.

Good, then we're on the same page.


I continue to disagree with your hagiographic interpretation of your own hobbies.

Example?

And, what is a "loaded word?"

-Charles

[DigitalDowntown]

Well then, it's settled: the defining characteristic distinguishing mere hobby from serious hobby is an elevated risk of serious injury or death.

I guess. I love backpacking. Around 10 years ago, I used to do it very aggressively, to summit peaks over 14,000' (>4,300 meters), camp around timberline and such. I never thought of high altitude backpacking as a 'serious hobby' before, more of 'a hobby you have to take seriously' so you don't get lost, freeze, starve, dehydrate, get sick, fall, mitigate injuries, etc. It requires a great deal of mental and physical preparation and the same kind of 'push through it' discipline as kendo.

On the other hand, my wife and I are also both photographers. We don't make our living doing it, but we take our 'hobby' seriously enough to run a professional business doing it. Although we are 'professional photographers,' I'd call our photography more of a 'serious hobby' that occasionally pays well. It too takes major preparation, requires discipline, etc.

Come to think of it, I've never done anything I would call a 'mere hobby.' If I can't take it seriously, I really can't call it a hobby of mine.
I like to shoot billiards, I'd call that an 'occasional pastime.'

[Jiyoui]

You get out of kendo what you put in. If it's a hobby to you, it's a hobby. If it's a sport to you, it's a sport. If it's a way of self development to you then that's what it is. For each person kendo can be something different.

How did this thing get so long?
Oh... there was a partial-derailment... How does a train partially derail...
Anyways
It is what you make of it.

[LarsCW]

I think that the part that makes Kendo more then a hobby must be that when you dissagree you can hit the other, scream your lungs out without having to worry about the neighbours calling the cops.

[JByrd]

Well then, it's settled: the defining characteristic distinguishing mere hobby from serious hobby is an elevated risk of serious injury or death.

I figure that the serious attitude we take toward budo does have something to do with the life or death nature of the art, as it was originally practiced.

[Charlie]

Sorry to come late to a thought provoking thread.

I've always thought of kendo as a lifestyle. The difference between hobby and lifestyle in my mind is ambiguous. A hobby seems to me something you do for fun that is more easily compartmentalized. Kendo creeps into all other or most other aspects of your life. It's possible for a hobby to become a lifestyle. For example, if you enjoy building models, it's a hobby. When you're subscribing to model magazines, hanging out at model forums, and traveling to model conventions, it's become a lifestyle.

Just my two yen - not sure how these words break down semantically. Kendo is a lifestyle because it invades all other aspects of your life - your time, your behavior and, perhaps most of all, your thought.

[Mako]

I figure that the serious attitude we take toward budo does have something to do with the life or death nature of the art, as it was originally practiced.

+rep for that!

[Anorymous]

Thanks to everyone for helping me with this linguistic endeavour.

I've come to understand that the word "hobby", albeit not wrong, is a huge understatement. It would be like hearing someone address you as "Hello, vertebrate". Some people (myself included) would take no offence, but others would get angry because there's more to them than that.

As for more concise words or phrases, "responsibility", "passion" and "part of my life" are all much more accurate in their meaning than "hobby".

[EndureForte]

It can be whatever you want it to be honestly. I know plenty of kendoka that practice for exercise and enjoyment with no thought of development. I know a few others that practice because it makes them feel like they are part of something special, and go through everything solely out of dedication to the idea.

Personally, I am now pursuing kendo for totally different reasons than when I started.

The reason for my shift of mentality was experiences gained from working with Iwanami sensei in Kanagawa, and his approach to kendo in general. I was very impressed. Suddenly all the hitherto theorhetical talk of Budo made total (and practical) sense.

When I returned to the US, the difference in mentality was palpable. Not everyone around here was interested in working that hard to improve their kendo (and hopefully in so doing themselves). However, those people can still practice and get something wonderful out of the experience of kendo as a sport/hobby. But, for people like Iwanami sensei, kendo IS a way of life.

In this sense, it is big enough to provide something for basically anyone interested. Therefore, if you are looking for a hobby, boom. If you are looking for fitness, boom. If you are looking for a good time, boom. If you are looking for years of painful hardship spent suffering through terrible practices with minimal reward and an uncertain future, boom. If you are looking for Yamato Damashi, boom.

That's all I'm saying.

[Ruleslawyer]

Kendo is a hobby, but that doesn't mean that it can't be many more things to people all at once. Just as being human doesn't exclude you from being a saint or a sinner, being a hobby doesn't mean it can't be serious or frivolous. Its also a sport, a way of life, an exercise program and even a profession to some. We can all be right.

[yoda-waza]

Yes, what a hobby means differs among individuals. For some of our younger newcomers, though, kendo as a hobby priority appears to rank below paintball and Warhammer 40k. Given that level of meaning, it is doubtful whether kendo will sustain a hobby interest for long.

[KendoN0ob]

I have been practising Kendo for just over 2 years and for me kendo is more than a hobby for me personally. If i could I would practice every day of the week so i think thats more than just a hobby.