Tsuki

[don_lubo]

Check this out!
http://www.kendo.hu/2003/images/tsukimozog.gif

[mystic_kendoka]

heheheheheh.... out of interest... is fumikomi required for tsuki?

[Kiki]

is fumikomi required for tsuki?

Also, was that a valid point? It almost looks like it was not the intended point and then he took advantage after his opponent moved into his shinai. Maybe that's all it takes???

OUCH

[litige]

heheheheheh.... out of interest... is fumikomi required for tsuki?

why wouldn't it be required?

[mystic_kendoka]

i dno anythin bout tsuki...
but it seems different from other attacks, as it is a thrust rather than a hit like other targets...

[takashijarosu]

wow that had to suck...talk about a tsuki , i also think it was unintended.but yet kick ass.

[Neil Gendzwill]

why wouldn't it be required?
Uhm, cuz it's never required?

[mystic_kendoka]

so for tsuki fumikomi isnt needed? :S i dont get this...

[Neil Gendzwill]

so for tsuki fumikomi isnt needed? :S i dont get this...
For any point fumikomi isn't required. What is required is to show ki-ken-tai-ichi. Fumikomi is one way that is accomplished. If you practice tsuki, you can do it suri-ashi or fumikomi-ashi. Fumikomi as usual will give you quite a powerful attack.

[JSchmidt]

"
Also, was that a valid point? "

Doubt it...the men cuts land first and the tsuki is not coming from the center.
I would pay for the men.

Jakob

[kendokamax]

eh...thats not a point. its not even a tsuki

the shinai was just in the way .

[don_lubo]

Of course it's not a youko-datotsu

[mingshi]

the men cuts land first and the tsuki is not coming from the center.
I would pay for the men.
I always wonder: if someone cuts men like this and runs into opponent's shinai, there shouldn't be an ippon, no?

(Referencing AJKF regulations, Article 12, subsidiary rules: Datotsu in the following xases shall not be valid:
1. Aiuchi; or
2. When Datotsu is made, the opponent is checking the attacker by touching the latter's upper front body with the latter's upper front body with the tip of the former's Shinai in high spirits and in the right posture.)
:rolleyes:

[Neil Gendzwill]

For that rule to apply, the defender must perform mune-tsuki at the same time or before the men attack. If they are a little bit late, the men will hold up. In the case of the video, I'd say the point would be waved off due to a certain lack of zanshin with your ass on the floor :)

[JSchmidt]

"2. When Datotsu is made, the opponent is checking the attacker by touching the latter's upper front body with the latter's upper front body with the tip of the former's Shinai in high spirits and in the right posture."

^^

Doesnt quite fit my definition of right posture :)

[Danny Boy]

Sweet.

But not a point scoring hit (if it did, im a monkey's uncle). Guy's bent over, didnt move with the tsuki. Still it was good stuff, nice kote-tsuki, which shows you that he took the right distance with the kote and threatened the other guy with tsuki...which the other guy jumped onto. Good stuff.

[JSchmidt]

Sweet.
Still it was good stuff, nice kote-tsuki, which shows you that he took the right distance with the kote and threatened the other guy with tsuki...which the other guy jumped onto. Good stuff.

Huh?..he missed the kote, panicked, and then did everything he could to ruin the opponents attack.
The action looks impressive, but it's certainly not nice kendo :)

[slidercrank]

I agree with JSchmidt. It was not a kote-tsuki. The guy missed the kote, knew it fast enough, and bent his body to the side to dodge the inevitably coming men attack. He simply stuck his shinai out in front to impede the opponent's counter-attack. His feet, torso and arms showed that he had no intention whatsoever to execute a tsuki.

Logically, I don't even think there's such a combination attack as kote-tsuki, but that's totally different subject.

[Danny Boy]

I agree with JSchmidt. It was not a kote-tsuki. The guy missed the kote, knew it fast enough, and bent his body to the side to dodge the inevitably coming men attack. He simply stuck his shinai out in front to impede the opponent's counter-attack. His feet, torso and arms showed that he had no intention whatsoever to execute a tsuki.

Logically, I don't even think there's such a combination attack as kote-tsuki, but that's totally different subject.

1st part of my post said that it was shite, but in second i tried to be the devil's advocate (and failed) and see if there might be _something_ worth remembering from that small vid.

Kote-Tsuki : kote with a small step and extended arms, and whereas in kote-men you move the kensen upward, threaten enemy with tsuki (to move him back) and go for men, you actually push him back with either tsuki or a hit in mune.
I would draw a diagram...

[slidercrank]

Kote-Tsuki : kote with a small step and extended arms, and whereas in kote-men you move the kensen upward, threaten enemy with tsuki (to move him back) and go for men, you actually push him back with either tsuki or a hit in mune.
I would draw a diagram...
When you do kote-men, do you do it because 1) striking the kote enables you to take the center, thereby having the opening to hit his men? Or 2) striking the kote enables you to take the center, which allows you to threaten him with a tsuki, which in turn forces him to step back, and as a result of this chain reaction, you can hit his men?

I contend the rationale for kote-men is 1) instead of 2). Kodansha sensei's, including mine, emphasize that after kote, the attacker must have a strong center, but this strong center is for the purporse of hitting the men, not for tsuki or feigning a tsuki.

The key point for a nidan waza like kote-men is that the timing is consecutive. The fumikomi for the kote and the men strikes should be one after the other so rapidly that they practically become one sound. This is my understanding of a nidan waza. Then, one must wonder, given the timing, does the opponet really have the time to perceive your tsuki threat after kote, and then react to it by stepping back? In another word, the whole point of a kote-men nidan waza is to strike his kote and take the center, and then strike his men so fast that the opponent has no time to react by retaking the center or retreating out of your striking distance.

Thus, I argue that this whole "tsuki threat" in a kote-tsuki is not part of the waza, if we are to consider kote-tsuki a nidan waza.

Well then, what if we ignore this whole perceived threat thing, and just go tsuki right after the kote, in the same manner and timing as kote-men? While I can see this as being possible in kenjutsu, in modern kendo it is just not possible. The maai is too close. The throat protector is too small. The timing required for a nidan waza is too fast. To try to do a kote-tsuki is just recklessly dangerous.

I will be really surprised if you have actually seen anyone trying to do a kote-tsuki in the proper timing of a nidan waza.

[sminki]

Well, not that I've ever seen a kote-tsuki, while unlikely and probably very dangerous, it's not entirely inconceivable. I would contend that there are wazas which are not "logical" within the general context, but aren't all things possible given the right context? While kote-tsuki may not be a "practical" waza, it can certainly be an "applied" waza given certain circumstances.

BTW, that was NOT a kote-tsuki in the video. It was a lucky display of what I believe is called mukae tsuki which means you're certainly placing your kensen at the opponent's throat as a reaction. While senseis and kodansha do this to students to point out the centerline, it is generally not considered good kendo in other contexts (according to an author of the Tsuki article which appeared in the second or third edition of Kendo World).

[Danny Boy]

We're getting off topic here but a healthy exchange of information on a martial art that we both participate in is always good so :


When you do kote-men, do you do it because 1) striking the kote enables you to take the center, thereby having the opening to hit his men? Or 2) striking the kote enables you to take the center, which allows you to threaten him with a tsuki, which in turn forces him to step back, and as a result of this chain reaction, you can hit his men?

When I do kote-men i would opt for point 1. But if i intend to do kote-tsuki, and now i shall quote from one of my instructors (5th dan), take smaller step than on normal kote, allow enough space between your arms and hara and do a small tsuki using both hands.

If you're still not seeing it, then i apologise for not making this clear enough.

[slidercrank]

If you're still not seeing it, then i apologise for not making this clear enough.
Your description is very clear. It's just that kote-tsuki isn't something I think is logical, but hey, that doesn't mean I'm right!

[samurai999]

Didn't look like kote-tsuki to me.. It looked like the guy on the near side was going for kote, missed and his seme took him into the opponents tsuki, then he used his center and SLAMMED HIS ASS TO THE GROUND!! In addition, it looked like he was going for do.. Look at how his head is moving and where his shinai is going..

Tim

[etherknot]

Whee!

I admit I had forgotten about animated GIFs so when I saw this thread topic I was all: Um.. But wheee! That looks like fun. :)

I agree with most of you though. It looks like the guy stepped in and just happened to find himself at the business end of the shinai.

[supernils]

If nothing else the sequence shows the difference between a balanced Zanshin and one that is not.

[Jon Seay]

For that rule to apply, the defender must perform mune-tsuki at the same time or before the men attack. If they are a little bit late, the men will hold up. In the case of the video, I'd say the point would be waved off due to a certain lack of zanshin with your ass on the floor :)
I think you definitely hit the Zanshin nail on the head, and quite humorously I might add.

[kawa]

For any point fumikomi isn't required. What is required is to show ki-ken-tai-ichi. Fumikomi is one way that is accomplished. If you practice tsuki, you can do it suri-ashi or fumikomi-ashi. Fumikomi as usual will give you quite a powerful attack.


Fumikomi is for "cutting" But Tsuki is er...for..poking a target...I think push with your koshi (hip) is good enough... If I may be wrong...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Fumikomi is for "cutting" But Tsuki is er...for..poking a target...I think push with your koshi (hip) is good enough... If I may be wrong...
Same as any other attack, you can use fumikomi or suri-ashi, either works. I think you'll find fumikomi gives a very strong tsuki.

[kawa]

Same as any other attack, you can use fumikomi or suri-ashi, either works. I think you'll find fumikomi gives a very strong tsuki.

Let me give it a try tonight...lol Maybe I'll do Tsuki "DO" instead.. ..I don't trust my aim.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Let me give it a try tonight...lol Maybe I'll do Tsuki "DO" instead.. ..I don't trust my aim.
If you don't trust your aim, don't use fumikomi yet. Just practice the basic one until you feel like you can hit it. When you go to do it with fumikomi, make sure you're with a good uchidachi who has a men with a good nodo.

[forbidden]

I hope that guy is OK though...
It looks to me he hit the guy underneath his protection or something... ouch

[Shogun97]

:puzzled: Yes.......ouch!!!!!

Are all these championships as brutal as this one?
Cool vdeo, however.

[Masanari Onizuk]

Fisrt of all, I Cheked this!http://www.kendo.hu/2003/images/tsukimozog.gif (http://www.kendo.hu/2003/images/tsukimozog.gif)

Tsuki might be a good option to defend myself from opponent's men after I fail in hitting kote. When I saw the tsuki, I felt scare. I remember when I was a junior university student, senior students often did the same tsuki to scare junior students in Japan. I imagine he could not get an Ippon for the tsuki at the match regardless of good tsuki to doom. Because he received men before the tsuki. The opponent hit the men precisely but did not get a posture for zanshin. His beautiful men could be cancelled by the judge. Is my opinion correct? If you had any comments or found mistakes in my interpretation, please let me know. I think for me it will be difficult to execute a tsuki after a failed kote, as my body will be in motion, hopefully attempting the follow-up men, but it is worth an effort.

Anyway, It is one of my weak points that I often stop in front of the opponent after the failure in de-kote and receive men from the opponent. After failure in kote, tsuki might be a good option for the defense. What do you think?