Cross Training

[James]

Kendo - god love it, but it is an asymetrical kind of activity as far as overall health is concerned.
Do people just do Kendo, or another sport/activity to compliment aid Kendo, or maybe kendo is not their main sport?
I'll kick off by saying I occaisionally go swimming, but haven't managed to factor it into a regular schedule, main activity is kendo; but I do believe I need some other kind of cross-training would help to balance what I am doing and indeed increase my fitness for Kendo.
(My idea of weights is a kebab in one hand and a Guiness in the other) But I would be interested in hearing about more succesful regimes.

[ben]

I haven't the time now, but if I did I would do yoga as a way of re-balancing my body.

In the meantime, I resort to practising footwork and suburi in reverse posture. Straightaway I'm a beginner again! I also try and do some pretty comprehensive stretching at home.

Meditation is good too I think.

b

[kendokamax]

I love playing other sports.

I'm not too good at any of them, but i love to play no very seriously with friends, (american football, street hockey, tennis, baseball, soccer). I think i got a bit better in sports since i do kendo.

But my main other sport is to watch hockey on tv.

Go habs go!!!

[Ares2907]

Hmm, not sure if you count this as a sport, but I hit the gym three times a week around kendo training. Wish I had the time for other stuff, but there are only so many hours in a week.

[wabbit]

I do a bit of Iaido, although I started that more through curiosity than anything else.

I hadn't done any real exercise for years before I started kendo, but I try and sneak a few things into my daily routine (walk rather than bus, use stairs instead of lifts/elevators etc)

[Matthew Lagden]

Standing up at the bar constitutes exercise does it wabbit?

i go to the gym, and have now started running. But Kendo was the first exercise i had done in years as well.

the other stuff is supposed to supplement and improve my Kendo, which is my primary activity.

[Matthew Lagden]

also, i forgot to mention that i do Bikram yoga (basically yoga in a very hot room) which is brilliant for flexibility and weight loss, but obviously has no serious impact on fitness.

[David J]

I was very glad to be reasonably fit when I began Kendo. Like Jakob, I cycle a lot (and always have), and I think the benefits are many-fold. Obviously it makes the physical side of Kendo easier if you arent struggling after 10 mins, but more than that, I'm with Jakob in thinking that a lot of keiko is anaerobic by nature (or at very least, well into the lactic zone). If you are experienced in how anaerobic exercise feels (ie pretty nasty), I think you are better prepared for when you "feel the burn" in Kendo. Whats more, your body is better at disposing of the lactic acid build up, so the pain is less debilatating.

I'm not super-fit by any means, but have always pushed hard on the bike, so on the odd occasions I feel the burn in Kendo (I'm non-bogu remember) I just plough on through.

I'm guessing that if you do regular Kendo you get fit anyway, but doing other stuff must speed the process. You never see many fat kendoka, do you...? :D

<rei>

Dave

[JSchmidt]

Cycling..bought a road (racing) bike 3 months ago. Limited (as with my kendo) in the moment due to injury, but otherwise about 70-90 miles per week. + 30 miles of commuting (weekly total :)).

Jakob

[Confound]

I hate sports. From the moment I realized, at the age of six or seven, that the outcome of a sports match has no meaning that is not generated in and of itself, i've hated them. Think about it really hard, does it intrinsically matter which team wins a hockey match?

Sports are a tool of the socio-economic elite, especially televised sports. they distract the masses, providing mindless entertainment that masquerades as 'healthy fun', but serves no purpose beyond that of taking up time that could be used for intellectual activities. the distraction serves the purposes of the elite, yet again deflecting the attention of the masses away from the flaws of society as run by the socio-economic elite.

pseudo-marxism and noam-chomsky-esque feelings aside, I really don't like the culture of sports either. "There is no 'I' in 'team'" makes me want to scream. if I rise or fall, it will not be because some dufus to whom I passed the ball was incapable of making a proper shot. I don't like the interdependence of team sports, and the blind competitiveness of individual sports seems little more than an excuse for vanity.

sports make me ill. however, I like kendou. a budo is different than a sport. it can be argued, and I forsee that Achilles will posit this, that this difference is merely in your approach to the budo, not the budo itself. i disagree. the budo culture, if you will, is diametrically oposed to that of sports. the foundation of budo is the student-sensei relationship, which is something not found in 'sports'. the sempai-kohei relationship is also important, another concept that really doesn't translate into sports culture.

finally, the mental aspects of kendou are not to be found in sports. people claim that it is possible to approach a traditional sport, like baseball or tennis, the same was as a budo, but it seems farcical to me.

in short: i detest exclusive development of the body and emphasis on teams. I have never worked well in groups, so sports annoy me incredibly. plato can take his 'well-rounded development' and shove it.

c

[Confound]

whoops. i forgot something:

i've seen quite a few fat kendouka. then again, i suspect that people training in japan see far more kendouka from outside their own dojo on a regular basis than people training in most other countries. thus, the likelihood of seeing fat kendouka increases.

c

[JSchmidt]

"people claim that it is possible to approach a traditional sport, like baseball or tennis, the same was as a budo, but it seems farcical to me. "

You would know if you had actually played any sports.

Jakob

[James]

Three things,
1) I've seen some HUGE kendoka!
2) Confound are you a brain in a glass jar of bubbling liquid in a laboratory in a secret bunker hooked up to the internet.
3) Confound how come you always get to use over 2000 characters in your posts where I get stopped if I use over 1000 (serious question).

[Kuri]

Originally posted by Confound
the foundation of budo is the student-sensei relationship, which is something not found in 'sports'.
For those serious in any sport, the player-coach realationship is quite similar.


the sempai-kohei relationship is also important, another concept that really doesn't translate into sports culture.
Ever heard of a mentor? Maybe looking up to idols. My question is whether this aspect comes directly from Japanese culture and is not indicative of fighting arts from all over the world (eg kungfu, kali, escrima, ......)


finally, the mental aspects of kendou are not to be found in sports.
Go for a run and see how far you get before your mind starts to wander. How about pushing through those barriers? There is a huge psycological aspect to be found in any sport.

I'm with JSchmidt. Get out there and give it a serious go before you pass judgement.

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Confound
[snippage]

Think about it really hard, does it intrinsically matter which team wins a hockey match?


Thought about it really hard. Now my brain hurts. Or maybe it's a carry over from the 'Cross Swords-Know love' thread. I digress.
Have a think about english soccer fans, to whom the outcome of a match is like (and often is) a matter of life and death. Hooliganism aside, football is like a religion to many and pursued with a fanaticism rarely seen since weird religious zealouts were offing each other in record numbers early last millenium.
Anyway, the intrinsic importance of winning would appear, given my rationale, to depend on things ouside the sphere of the game itself.




Sports are a tool of the socio-economic elite, especially televised sports. they distract the masses, providing mindless entertainment that masquerades as 'healthy fun', but serves no purpose beyond that of taking up time that could be used for intellectual activities. the distraction serves the purposes of the elite, yet again deflecting the attention of the masses away from the flaws of society as run by the socio-economic elite.


sounds like a perfectly potted description of just about any organised religion I could name. No offence intended to you religious types.




pseudo-marxism and noam-chomsky-esque feelings aside, I really don't like the culture of sports either.


Come back and tell me that after Nike pay you millions of dollars to wear their new velcro hakama and gatorade beat down your door for their new television commercial.


[major snippage]

Hey, I'm with you on the liking the non-sporting elements of kendo. They're much more my thing. I enjoy shiai, sometimes I even don't suck at it, but I can't say it's my favourite part of kendo.




finally, the mental aspects of kendou are not to be found in sports. people claim that it is possible to approach a traditional sport, like baseball or tennis, the same was as a budo, but it seems farcical to me.


dunno about this. Not having done any sports to an elite level it's hard for me to say one way or another. Doubtless there are some others around that might care to take up the argument.



in short: i detest exclusive development of the body and emphasis on teams. I have never worked well in groups, so sports annoy me incredibly. plato can take his 'well-rounded development' and shove it.

c ]

You're a harsh marker, but to each their own I guess.
Different strokes, different folks. Personally I think exclusive development of the body has some excellent fringe benefits. Team sports are also good imho - it all depends on what you want to get out of it.
Sounds to me like you play to win (ironically) no matter what you do, so your wanker-tolerance level would be pretty low. I think one needs to ease up on that for stuff like team sports.

Um, I'm sure I had a point to make when I began to reply to this. Buggered if I can remember what it was. Oh well.
-Ares.

[JSchmidt]

" I have never worked well in groups, so sports annoy me incredibly"
(Missed this one the first time around)

Hmm so how do you function in a dojo, which is pretty much a group. I certainly every single person in the dojo a part of the training and you have to work together to get the most out of it.

Jakob

[David J]

Originally posted by Confound
Think about it really hard, does it intrinsically matter which team wins a hockey match?


Does anything intrinsically matter? Surely the whole process of "mattering" relates to the significance that is attached to something by one or more beings. If no-one attaches significance, it doesnt matter. If they do, it does (to them).

Sorry if we into alt.philosophy.pointless here.....

<rei>

Dave

[lewis]

I have focused on racing mountain bikes (in a citizen class) for the last decade or so, as a means to keep in shape and spend time with my friends. Because of my age, I also lift weights consistently to maintain strength.

As a general note to the younger people, once you reach 30, you really need to do some kind of regular weight training or you will lose strength, muscle mass, and bone density. You'll also be much more prone to injuries. The reason why I mention it is because it happens REGARDLESS of whether you remain active in kendo, cycling or whatever. If you're in your 30s and it feels like you just keep getting worse no matter how much you practice, that's the reason.

IMHO - One reason why the spirituality aspect of Budo is hard to recreate in popular western sports is that most of them can only be done by the young. One great thing about kendo is getting your you-know-what kicked by a 70 year old. You can't help but notice then that kendo is more than 'higher, farther, faster'.

[KhawMengLee]

" I have never worked well in groups, so sports annoy me incredibly"

Isn't kendo a group sport as well?

When you fight you fight individually, yes. But in team events...

Also when you train, you train as a close knit group(well, we do anyways). Each person helps the other.

How about grading? Both in Kirikaesh and kata we rely on our partner to make the excercise work.


MENG

[mingshi]

Kendo cannot be considered as a group sport. You won't have a chance to fight in a team against a team like football/soccer!!! Team sports can be: tennis doubles, swimming relay etc. Team members have to compete against another team at the same time. In Kendo, you're always alone, vs another kendoka. In the Dojo it's not the "group" that we're talking about. You fight against each other inside! Although you can make friends with each other, it is irrelevant to what we're talking about.

Mind you, Confound, that Kendo IS a televised sport! Every year the AJKF championship is broadcasted all over the nation, eg. on the NHK channel. In fact, you can buy this year's tickets (the 50th, on 3-4 Nov) already. For the 2-day event, arena seats 8000 Yen each, 1st floor seats 5000 Yen each. Free for middle-school kids!!

Mental aspect... really depends on how you treat the thing. You can approach everything mentally. I can play computer games psychologically. I can have lunch in a spiritual way. Taking football again, football players play it mentally so much. They cry (either win or lose, you'll see it)!! While in Kendo, I'd rather like to hear a 7-year old kid say to me, "Hey I practise Kendo for building up my character!". It really depends.

Noam Chomsky on Sports, for those who don't know:-
"Take, say, sports-that's another crucial example of the indoctrination system, in my view. For one thing because it-you know, it offers people something to pay attention to that's of no importance. That keeps them from worrying about-- keeps them from worrying about things that matter to their lives that they might have some idea of doing something about. And in fact it's striking to see the intelligence that's used by ordinary people in sports. I mean, you listen to radio stations where people call in-they have the most exotic information and understanding about all kind of arcane issues. And the press undoubtedly does a lot with this.

"You know, I remember in high school, already I was pretty old. I suddenly asked myself at one point, why do I care if my high school team wins the football game? I mean, I don't know anybody on the team, you know. I mean, they have nothing to do with me, I mean, why I am cheering for my team? It doesn't mean any-it doesn't make sense. But the point is it does make sense: it's a way of building up irrational attitudes of submission to authority, and group cohesion behind leadership elements, in fact it's training in irrational jingoism. That's also a feature of competitive sports. I think if you look closely at these things, I think, typically, they do have functions, and that's why energy is devoted to supporting them and creating a basis for them and advertisers are willing to pay for them and so on. "

*****
From "Kendo vs Sports?", let's get back to cross-training. I'm against cross training for the sake of Kendo, because you probably would not need it. Kendo is something that do not relate to your physical built. You don't even need to be healthy to be good at it. I'd say, use your brain more, maybe cross training by playing more chess. Fat people welcomed . Short and/or Old (eg Yoda) welcomed. Alcoholic welcomed. Smokers welcomed. Drugs....err not sure (but certainly get disqualified in Shiai). Who do you think all the 8th Dans are? Mental counts. Experience counts. And reaction time/reflex has nothing to do with muscles too. Of course, you can do other sports. Again it's a matter of personal interest. I go hiking too, but not for Kendo.

[Confound]

Meng,

The people you train with in kendou are technically a team, but you don't have to work together, as you do in a sports team. training together is vastly different in kendou as well. the general feeling of it is different. in kendou everyone is advancing at their own pace on a seperate path of development, whereas in a sport, the development of the TEAM is stressed over the development of the individual. When was the last time you went to a dojo and saw all those cheesy 'inspiring' posters that you see in gyms, like 'there is no I in team'?

c

[Confound]

Whoa, Mingshi, hold back the acid. I never said kendou was a team sport. I'm only saying I don't crosstrain for kendou because I hate sports, especially team sports. Note that the explanation of why i hate sports was only to hol dback the other 'i love sports' flamers.

c

[mingshi]

I wasn't refering to you!

The acid is from the excitement of a Kendo seminar in 10 hours later. See you in 3 days!

[kendokamax]

Why being so negative about something that so many people enjoy all around the world. Kendo is a stupid activity too. Think about it really hard!!! What does it matter to hit the head of an opponent and screaming at the same time?

There is many things in life that can be call "useless", however we can still do them and enjoy them. If you think that everyone watching professional sports is an idiot because everyone else in the world says it's cool to do so then. Why do you have to hit the "kote" of your opponent and not his/her arm?


ah I can't wait for hockey season..

[ben]

I like how James said "to balance up the asymnetry of kendo" or something like. That's actually different to cross-training. Cross-training implies something you do to make your kendo more effective (like weights). But doing something to rebalance your body because kendo is so one sided recognises an idea of health above and beyond kendo. We kendoka last much longer than any other budoka (other than maybe taikyoka or aikidoka) but still our bodies could be straighter. Well-being for its own sake maybe?

I totally agree with the gist of Confound's rant BTW. And Lewis' too: "Faster, Higher, Stronger" has a lot to answer for in my book. Drugs in sport being the main one. Excessive sponsorship and endorsements another. Worship of the youthful body over wonder at the body's amazing longevity and accumulated wisdom another.

*Rambling rant warning*:
But it's not the athletes who are to blame for this, it's the spectators. We create the need for the spectacle, whether it is victory or disappointment. So how cheated would a US TV audience (ie PT Barnum's proverbial 'American public') feel watching the All Japan Kendo Championships, not being able to tell, once they took off their men, which competitor had won and which had lost because neither showed any emotion at the outcome? Where is the drama? Where is the tragedy? Where is the ego? Where is the fist in the air?

Nowhere to be found, thank God. Maybe just a wry smile.

*end ranting ramble. thank you.*

b

[cklin]

Confound: I agree with you that spectator sports are retarded -- habitual watching of sporting events on tv is probably responsible for a lot of the health problems people have today. Watching the World Cup finals every so often, just for the heck of it while bending an elbow w/ your buddies, is OK in my book b/c it then turns into a social event.

BUT, I would disagree with you on two points: (1) that sports lack everything mental that kendo has, and (2) kendo is not a team sport.

Well, I can only speak from experience. Before kendo, I used to run. A lot. And I find that a runner's mind is a lot like a kendoka's. Over the course of a 26-mile race, you have to do a lot of thinking about your strategy against your competitors, particularly in regards to your pace and your energy reserves. How do you psyche out your competitor? How will you adapt your strategy to your competitor's pace changes throughout the race and still have enough to kick past him on that last mile? Can you correctly anticipate his pace changes and capitalize? There's no end to the amount of mental gamesmanship to running, just like there is in kendo. And well, running is a simple sport -- left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot... ad infinitum. I imagine in other sports like gymnastics, where skills are honed, there is just as much if not more of a mental aspect.

Throughout my running days, I'd have to say that I looked to my coach much like I looked to my sensei nowadays. And I looked to my seniors on the team for running tips, encouragement, the occassional chewing out, just like I look to my sempai nowadays. And I turned around and gave tips, encouragement and the occassional chewing out to my juniors, just like I do to my kohai nowadays. So the parallels are there.

As to kendo being an individual sport. Sure, it is mostly a one-on-one thing. But if you've competed on a team before, you'd know that there is strategy on the group level that makes or breaks a team. Who are you going to put in the sempo position to best counter the other team's sempo's style? If the matches are tied, the next guy up needs to win 2-0 to bring the game back and so on... so there is an implicit reliance on your teammates and that's what justifies kendo as a team sport, as well as an individual one.

And in regards to wine on the other thread... I like a fine wine, but I like a bargain even better. :D

[KhawMengLee]

Sigh...

Back in High School(English Style Private School) I was really fit. Sports was compulsory and there was always this "air" of SCHOOL COMES FIRST. I used to love it though.

Cross country, Rugby, Rowing, etc...sigh


After that the discipline was gone. heh...soccer with your mates doesn't count as hard training.

After 6 years of slacking I think its time to get back in the saddle.

MENG

[Matthew Lagden]

yeah i went to that sort of school, and yes i was very fit, but i hated sport with a vengeance - 8 years, 3 afternoons a week of hell.

I still have bad dreams about it 14 years after leaving.

On the other hand, Kendo I love, so to my mind there must be some qualitative difference in the experience.

I think it is because Kendo seems mercifully free of all the thuggish macho BS that seems to accompany sport - in this country at least.

As someone said, at a Shiai, no air punching or running around the circle or hugging team mates.

[David J]

I think part of the difference is how you are made to feel if you're no good. In "normal" sports at school, being picked last was always a real humiliation. In comparison, most people who do Kendo are very encouraging to novices, and are very aware of their own limitations and quite humble. (I'm sure there are exceptions...). Even Shodan or Nidan players tend to start conversations with "don't worry, I'm not very good at Kendo either".

The shame in school sports is how you're treated. I was rubbish at football, cricket etc so always got bad grades, even though I tried hard. I was later allowed to do badminton, at which I was pretty good - suddenly I get good grades, even though it was a breeze in comparison.....

<rei>

Dave

[Matthew Lagden]

All true - plus kendo isn't done in the freezing cold, nor overseen by some demented sadist who was kicked out of the army for being too cruel....

[Ares2907]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
All true - plus kendo isn't done in the freezing cold, nor overseen by some demented sadist who was kicked out of the army for being too cruel....

Heh - never done kangeiko have you?
:p

[Lionheart]

This is my first post on these forums, so I'll take a quick moment to introduce myself. I'm Lionheart, I'm a student from the states and a big fan of Kendo.

Other than practicing Kendo, I'm involved in intermural sports here at school, (Softball, Football and Volleyball) and enjoy lifting weights.

There, that wasnt so bad for a newbie poster. ^_^

[Charlie]

I do a lot of martial arts, but moreso because it just sort of happened that way than because those are the only things I enjoy.

I kickbox once a week, play judo once a week, and kendo once or twice a week. Oh, and iaido, which I need to make more time for. If I had more time, I'd like to swim, and I love racquet ball and baseball.

Hey, Lewis, can you expand this? I just turned 30 and I never heard this before!

"As a general note to the younger people, once you reach 30, you really need to do some kind of regular weight training or you will lose strength, muscle mass, and bone density. You'll also be much more prone to injuries. The reason why I mention it is because it happens REGARDLESS of whether you remain active in kendo, cycling or whatever. If you're in your 30s and it feels like you just keep getting worse no matter how much you practice, that's the reason."

[stinkyKote]

Originally posted by Matthew Lagden
All true - plus kendo isn't done in the freezing cold, nor overseen by some demented sadist who was kicked out of the army for being too cruel....

heh, Oh I don't know..I think every good kendo sensei is at least part sadist :D