The Exercise Value of Kendo vs Other Sports

[Kozushi]

There aren't a lot of sports where the entire body is engaged all the time like it is in Kendo. Maybe hockey, judo (and wrestling/similar), fencing, watersports, gymnastics. Generally speaking, sports either engage the lower body or the upper, but most of them focus on the lower body since they involve running around. In Kendo we're holding a staff in both our hands, striking with it and parrying, and maneuvering around with our feet all at the same time. My club's practice session is two hours long. So, that is two hours of keeping the body fully engaged in exercise. Unlike fencing, both arms are kept in play and the weight of the shinai ensures that they are getting a good workout. Judo (and similar) keep the whole body in action, but due to the heavier nature of the activity, it is harder to keep at it for as long a time as you can in Kendo, and even a relatively small difference in size of the combatants (in judo etc) makes the fight quite uneven - and it's hard to find lots of people of roughly the same size to train together (of course, there are plenty of things to do besides just fighting in judo, however!) Definitely sword cutting motions are an excellent exercise, which unfortunately, two of the three main fencing weapons do not allow. I remember reading a 16th Century book on fencing by George Silver, where he complains that training with the stabbing sword (the rapier) is making his countrymen weak, whereas the traditional cutting sword (the "sword"/backsword) made them strong. (Fencing is awesome too, of course - just talking about relative exercise benefits.)

Has anyone found another sport that seems to be equivalent to Kendo in terms of the exercise benefits?

[rfoxmich]

Non martial art: Swimming.

[Kozushi]

Yes, I agree. Swimming is truly full-body. Some kinds of gymnastics are too. Cliff-climbing.

[ben]

Kendo itself is not such a great workout. Kendo training drills are a great workout. Cross-country skiing is probably a better workout than kendo as it is truly aerobic, low-impact and exercising all of the body simultaneously, not just the arms and legs but the core muscles needed for balance and stabilisiation on an uneven, slippery surface.

Track cycling is probably as good as CC skiing. The upper body is needed as much as the legs in order to counteract the force on the pedals. The environment is more predictable than skiing, but balance is still important. A lot of speed skaters cross-over to track cycling apparently.

Kendo is largely anaerobic, a fact which is proven by the large number of Nittaidai and other top uni team members who are heavy smokers. b

[stealth_monkey]

Has anyone found another sport that seems to be equivalent to Kendo in terms of the exercise benefits?

While I'm all for kendo, pretty much any organised sport is a better workout. Kendo promotes short bursts of energy spread out to the point where it's not really sustained enough to even be interval training. While the shinai strikes are good in theory, the shinai is too light and the cuts are too "flicky" (seme etc) to really do that much for me. In that sense, it's some aerobic/anaerobic hybrid that doesn't really work out.

Yeah, it's probably one of the best among the traditional martial arts, but if you want just pure martial arts with better exercise:
- Any form of boxing (kick, muay thai or regular)
- Any form of grappling (sambo, judo, bjj)
- Any of the hard karate styles (kyokushin)

I'd list some non-martial arts, but in all seriousness I'd be listing 90% of them.

[rfoxmich]

I hate all blanket statements ;-)

What is 'better' depends on your fitness goals. For example if you want to be better ant short bursts of energy....
The quality of a kendo workout...well it also depends on the dojo. How much kakari geiko you do, and how long each set is a big determining factor.



While I'm all for kendo, pretty much any organised sport is a better workout. Kendo promotes short bursts of energy spread out to the point where it's not really sustained enough to even be interval training. While the shinai strikes are good in theory, the shinai is too light and the cuts are too "flicky" (seme etc) to really do that much for me. In that sense, it's some aerobic/anaerobic hybrid that doesn't really work out.

Yeah, it's probably one of the best among the traditional martial arts, but if you want just pure martial arts with better exercise:
- Any form of boxing (kick, muay thai or regular)
- Any form of grappling (sambo, judo, bjj)
- Any of the hard karate styles (kyokushin)

I'd list some non-martial arts, but in all seriousness I'd be listing 90% of them.

[stealth_monkey]

What is 'better' depends on your fitness goals. For example if you want to be better ant short bursts of energy....

While I definitely understand your point, if I wanted to be better at short bursts of energy, I'd perform an exercise designed for that purpose. Perhaps I should have used "more efficient" rather than "better".


The quality of a kendo workout...well it also depends on the dojo. How much kakari geiko you do, and how long each set is a big determining factor.
Agreed. However, one of the limitations of any exercise programs is diminishing returns. Past a point, returns from the same exercise drop to next to zero. In most kendo dojos, that point will be slightly higher than the least fit person in the class. The answer to that problem is normally to increase intensity, duration or change technique. None of those are easy in Kendo, there's a certain point when you stop being energetic and start being a crazed swordsman.

[enkorat]

I've gotten interested in this topic recently for a number of reasons, most of which sound really boring. But I've been doing a lot of things lately to answer for myself whether "kendo is a good workout" and what kinds of practices lead to efficient practices that both cover curriculum ground, increase endurance and stamina, and cover different exercise zones.

I don't entirely want to go into too much detail publicly since I'm still testing and developing different practice structures and I'm not a sensei, but my answer so far with things I've tested and measured is that, yes Kendo can be "good exercise" as well as "good kendo", but like Fox sensei says, a lot of thought and practice structure design has to go into every practice day to make it that way.

[Anime12478]

I think that Kendo can be a great workout. But just like any other form of exercise, it depends on how long you're engaged in the activity and what you're doing with your time.

I've heard that an intense practice can burn somewhere in the region of 700 calories. I heard it from someone who knew someone that wore a calorimeter during practice and I've heard it from a few other people. Other than that, I don't know the true science behind all of that. Personally, Kendo has done wonders for my physical fitness. While I was never a fat, lazy slob, the increase of strength, endurance and those other benefits to exercise has allowed me to be able to do more and take more bodily stresses than I used to. I can't really confirm if Kendo was a direct cause, I have gained about 25 lbs over the years, with most of that being muscle weight. It helps the fact that I've been able to practice between 3-5 days per week for the last few years and it's really the only type of physical fitness I've been getting for a while now other than some offshoot activity I might partake in.

[enkorat]

Yea for the purposes of my..di...um.. training plan... I've been using 700 calories for a technically oriented practice and 800 for a stamina based practice for a 2 hour 15 min practice. I haven't starved, so I figured that was more accurate than the calculations based off of my heart rate meter, which was telling me I was burning 1900 calories during a kendo practice. If only that were true....

[DigitalDowntown]

Kendo itself is not such a great workout.

I can't even comprehend how a statement like this could be made from someone who does kendo. Yes, the drills are also great workouts, but perhaps you aren't pushing yourself while doing, "Kendo itself," if you're aren't getting a great workout. I agree that staying locked in tsubazeriai or keeping a defensive position and mindset won't be as much of a workout, but doing so to catch your breath is itself, a testimony to the great workout kendo provides.

As stated earlier, the workout one gets out of a given sport is of course related to what one puts in to doing that sport.

[JSchmidt]

I can't even comprehend how a statement like this could be made from someone who does kendo. Yes, the drills are also great workouts, but perhaps you aren't pushing yourself while doing, "Kendo itself," if you're aren't getting a great workout. I agree that staying locked in tsubazeriai or keeping a defensive position and mindset won't be as much of a workout, but doing so to catch your breath is itself, a testimony to the great workout kendo provides.

As stated earlier, the workout one gets out of a given sport is of course related to what one puts in to doing that sport.

I'll say what Ben said: Kendo itself is not such a great workout. It's asymmetrical and uses a limited range of motion. And having to catch your breath is not an indication of the quality of the workout.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thirded. It helps to be in good shape to play kendo. Kendo itself isn't necessarily going to get you there, at least as practiced in most of the dojo I have visited.

[enkorat]

Are we talking "exercise" or are we talking "workout"?

I agree that if you're looking to maximize the number of muscles you train or symmetry then something like swimming would probably be "better" and certainly more efficient in terms of time spent vs. return.

But what strikes me as odd when people make blanket statements that kendo "isn't good exercise", why is it used for Japanese physical education?

Granted, there are a lot of valid reasons to do kendo, and many fulfilling mental, philosophical, personal and even social benefits of doing kendo, and people don't want to turn kendo into the next health exercise craze where you get not so serious people in the door, but the fact of the matter is, I sit at a computer terminal for most of the day if I'm not running an experiment, and if I'm spending 4.5 hours a week doing something which serves as my physical exercise and "I'm not getting good exercise" then there is something wrong with the bigger picture.

Look, I'm personally monitoring myself with a remote heart rate monitor over a range of activities, including Kendo, over 2 months, read scientific articles and checked my own data against published data for kendo as well.

Yes, I imagine if you're very casual about practice, skip warmup, kihon or even the ashisabaki practice across the floor, be motodachi for beginners and do a few rounds of gigeiko where you're mostly "thinking" and "strategizing" and using oji-waza, and not going through much, yes, its not going to be good exercise. Essentially its the equivalent of walking around the neighborhood for an hour and half.

On the other hand, if I religiously do everything, including kihon, kakarigeiko, and 10-15 minutes of gigeiko with no breaks, my heart rate alone tells me that I'm getting a really serious workout. Serious enough that I had to read up on it to make sure I wasn't doing something crazy. But what I put my body through during kendo practice (especially advanced class) is far more serious than using the stationary bike at the gym the next day.

*I should note that we recently started to modify the kinds of drills and kakarigeiko that we do as part of this.

[JSchmidt]

Are we talking "exercise" or are we talking "workout"?


We're talking workout.



But what I put my body through during kendo practice (especially advanced class) is far more serious than using the stationary bike at the gym the next day.

Try some intervals. Not the silly programs on the bike, but proper max-effort intervals. Or do a couple of 500 meter sprints (from standing start) at a high enough resistance that you don't spin out.

[enkorat]

** should also note that we're doing this to increase our endurance and stamina during kendo, if we're talking about general exercise across other things, then yea... not going to help, as I'm still hopelessly hopeless at using the elliptical.

***also should note that I was completely unaware that my heart rate went so high during different kendo things. I think I just got so used to doing kendo that either my mind ignores it or something. So defi

[degeneral1]

Kendo is the best exercise/workout for me, for a simple reason: it's fun, so I keep doing it.

The other activities that I've tried or that my friends are into - basketball, volleyball, running, lifting, biking - I get bored really fast. Is kendo better than those activities? I don't know, maybe not. But it keeps me coming back, so at least I reap whatever benefits it offers vs. nothing from the other sports.

[Neil Gendzwill]

But what strikes me as odd when people make blanket statements that kendo "isn't good exercise", why is it used for Japanese physical education?Well, if we practiced like Japanese high school teams do, we'd be in great shape. Or possibly dead. It's not that kendo isn't good exercise, it's just that if your goal is to get into shape, there are much better and more efficient ways to do it. But it's definitely exercise, and if you don't dog it through the warm-ups and drills it's even better, and if it is what keeps you motivated and moving, even better.

What I do know is that my cross-training has improved my fitness even more, so that I can concentrate on kendo rather than whether I'm about to barf a lung when the pace gets hard.

[enkorat]

Well, if we practiced like Japanese high school teams do, we'd be in great shape. Or possibly dead.

Yea, this point has gotten me thinking a lot recently because where we practice, a lot of us aren't high school students, and many beginners aren't high school students. I think there is a much more diverse range of people coming in the door as a community dojo even compared to a U.S. university club, and I'm beginning to think that the "throw people into the mix as soon as possible to keep them from getting bored" as a blanket policy isn't such a great idea and needs to be counterbalanced by the level of fitness of the person starting kendo.

I do worry about people who are lets say, are obviously unfit, deciding to do kendo. In my experience some though people that I've thought have been unfit have stuck with it, persevered, and done well.


It's not that kendo isn't good exercise, it's just that if your goal is to get into shape, there are much better and more efficient ways to do it. But it's definitely exercise, and if you don't dog it through the warm-ups and drills it's even better, and if it is what keeps you motivated and moving, even better.

What I do know is that my cross-training has improved my fitness even more, so that I can concentrate on kendo rather than whether I'm about to barf a lung when the pace gets hard.

I think I am part of the camp that finds the more "efficient ways of getting into shape" soul crushingly boring on its own. If I can justify my time in the gym doing cross-training as "this is so I can feel better after yesterday's practice" or "this is part of my training plan for my shinsa", or even more basically "this is so I can get better at kendo".

My more recent experience moving to a different area of the country has shown me that there is a much more diverse approach to kendo instruction than I previously thought there was, and that in some cases, I agree, depending on the style of the instructor, kendo can either be extremely good exercise, or not very good exercise at all.

It got me really thinking about how to approach my own instructional style, and what my goals were for the classes that I end up leading, and what the needs of the students are. I've been really thinking about how to balance both how to teach "proper kendo", how to keep classes "physically worthwhile" in terms of exercise, since a number of students and their parents are looking for that as well, and to keep practices effective, efficient, and safe.

[dillon]

I lost 8kg/18lbs* thanks to the new slim fast kendo program™**.

*results may vary
**based on ~7hrs kendo a week and not affording to eat or drink beer too much

[rayactr2k6]

I've only done it for a week, but it reminds me a lot of wrestling or jiu jitsu, as far as how quickly i get exhausted lol. I wanted to collapse after like 6 minutes.

[Gilligan]

Interesting thread,

Any exercise is good exercise, good/ bad workout thats up to each of us to decide about our own training.
But the OP`s comment about using full body all the time is kind of a bit out. After reading this thread I started talking to some of the sensei here.　and they agreed that after high school or uni, the physical side of traing does slide in most places dojos (not all)
What was interesting was what he said about sports and other martial arts, They all do conditioning exercises to compliment the sport art. judo, karate etc all do sit ups push ups etc to keep the whole body fit/ in shape. other sports cross train and utilize the gym.
While it`s true many kendo people do as well most do not. He mentioned that kendo uses mostly the muscles on the back of your body. calf, hamstrings lower upper back and shoulders. he then asked me to count how many people have man boobs, and big bellies.
And it`s true here back home almost anywhere. Most of us get into our training routines, we build endurance and stamia, and cover our man boobs and guts with a do. I beleive it`s great for the heart and body, but kendo alone is not enough if you want good balance with the use ofyour muscles.

[LarsCW]

I've heard that an intense practice can burn somewhere in the region of 700 calories.

When you have a 2 hour workout and you can manage to keep your heartrate at 70% of your max heartrate during that time then you should be able to burn off 700.

So basically a Mars bar:-)

[Josh Reyer]

From the preface to Hunter B "Chip" Armstrong's "Strength and Condition for the Combative Athlete":


A lot of the resistance comes from the feling that many people have about their skill training, one that used to be shared by athletes in many other sports. This is the belief in "training into condition," that the skill training itself is efficient enough to give you all the strength and conditioning you will need to perform. At first glance this seems reasonable enough, but under closer examination it is obvious why "it just ain't so."

When you start learning a combative skill system, be it karate-do, silat, hung gar, kalaripayattu, etc., you are naturally inefficient at the movements. And the more inefficient you are, the more of a struggle the training is and the more of workout it is. When you first practice a new pre-arranged movement pattern fifteen times, it is a tough workout, primarily because of your inefficiency. As you skill increases, you are working less and less against yourself, the physical training effect becomes less and less, and you are probably getting in better relative shape. But there comes a point where your efficiency surpasses the physical training effect.

Of course, that efficiency is what you are training for. In a fight, or in a competition, you want to move as efficiently as possible, with as little non-essential movement as you can get away with. This is the essence of combative training. Unfortunately, at a certain level, efficiency bypasses much of the physical training effect from practice, and it becomes a case of diminishing returns.

I think this is what Neil and some others are getting at. Initially, kendo might seem like a tough workout that will build conditioning, but as you get better at it, you move with less effort, and it perforce becomes less effective in creating a workout. When the diminishing returns kick in, you have to start kicking up the length and intensity of your practice to impractical levels in order to get the same effect. The young turks of Japanese high school and college kendo teams have a high level of conditioning, but that comes from doing other sports, weight training, and a lot of running.

[Charlie]

Very interesting point, Josh. Very interesting thread. When you get skilled you either have to make your skills training even harder (Master Killer, the 36th Chamber!) or train outside your skills.

I have always been of the mind that kendo by itself is not a complete workout for the reasons described; I mean the caricature kendo guy has great legs and a beer belly. For the model of the complete workout I look to boxers. Kendo and boxing have a lot in common, including intense drill practices. But you'll notice boxers put in a lot of basic physical fitness work. I'm not sure but I think boxers may be among the best conditioned athletes of any sport (anyone verify or debunk that?). So what do boxers do?

-early morning road or bike work; 2 mile jog is the proverbial item, daily
-hit the gym, skip rope for 10-15 minutes
-push ups and sit ups (and in modern gyms, tire-flips and sledge hammer and ropes etc.)
-shadowboxing, bag work and mitts in intervals of three minutes with 30 seconds rest
-sparring

Of that 5-point list above, kendo only has 2 of them (drills and sparring).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Another issue is that as you progress in kendo and your role transitions to instructor, it becomes harder to get that workout. These days my classes are an hour of instructing kids, 90 minutes of instructing beginners, and then a scramble to put on my bogu (assuming I'm not dealing with questions and equipment issues) and grab maybe 30 minutes of keiko, which is going to be frankly mostly instructional too.

[Charlie]

BTW just found this mega list of celeb athlete workouts that might be germane to this discussion:

http://www.muscleprodigy.com/sport-specific/celebrity-pro-athlete-workouts-ctry-85.html