Shinpan Question: Competitor is injured but wants to continue

[Charlie]

I have seen this happen twice in shiai: one of the competitors twists an ankle and is visibly limping but wants to continue fighting. Both times, the injured person won the match.

Inspiring, yes, but here's my feeling: the match should be stopped because the risk to the injured fighter is too great and it puts the uninjured fighter at a disadvantage, because most fighters might hold back to avoid further injuring the injured fighter.

What are your thoughts? And under the rules, what can or should a shinpan do in this situation?

[tango]

I wasn't there, but my understanding is that if Elizabeth Marsten isn't allowed to continue in her match, her team loses two points by default and would not have advanced to the next round... (I think I heard her match wound up as hikiwake).

My personal take is that if you're injured, then it's up to you whether or not to continue..
So long as you're not a danger to the opponent, I guess I don't see what the problem is...
If the opponent holds back to avoid further injuring you, that would seem to be his problem for holding back.
If you opt not to withdraw after an injury, further injury is a risk you assume.

My 2 cents.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'd like to hear from other people but AFAIK this is a judgment call on the part of the shimpan. If someone is bleeding profusely, sorry but I am going to halt that match. Similarly if someone is knocked out cold and wakes up, they are headed straight to the doctor not back in the shiai-jo. If it's a kid I am always going to err on the side of caution. But if it's just a twisted ankle or something and an adult wants to continue, then they should be allowed to continue.

[bobdonny]

If the shimpan were medical practicioners or first aiders with a legal liability insurance they sure... I would think it fair to make a medical decision and make a call... if not... they have no business... they are there to judge kendo nothing else.

[Charlie]

Thanks, guys. BTW I did not have Elizabeth's match in mind when I wrote this. I wasn't there.

But seriously, the person is limping back into the shiaijo, and we let it continue? The person cannot put pressure on the right foot and we let it go? There should be a hiki wake rule or something, is my thinking.

[Toshiro Mifune]

That is a good question if you watched the SportsAccord Uchimura had a match against one of the Korean Team National Members. Uchimura probably would have lost the matche but the player twisted his ankle. They took almost 10 minutes looking at him and wrapping his ankle. Then when the match started he lost in about 5 seconds. Based on this I think it is only if the other person gives up, is unable to continue or the injury poses a grave danger to the person or both competitors. But I would be interested in hearing what the answer is because 10 minutes or more is alot of time to stop the match so someone can fix and injury so they don't lose a point.

[bobdonny]

Dude...seriously!!!

There would NEVAH!! have been any karate kid sequels (not even the latest kung fu version) if Daniel-san was eliminated cos he hurt his leg...

He would NEVAH!! have totally PWNED with the crane...

Charlie... how could you even suggest such a thing ;)

[JSchmidt]

There should be a hiki wake rule or something, is my thinking.

That would be too easy to abuse.


But I would be interested in hearing what the answer is because 10 minutes or more is alot of time to stop the match so someone can fix and injury so they don't lose a point.

There's a 5 minute time limit for dealing with injuries. Why that wasn't enforced, I don't know.

[tango]

I'd like to hear from other people but AFAIK this is a judgment call on the part of the shimpan. If someone is bleeding profusely, sorry but I am going to halt that match. Similarly if someone is knocked out cold and wakes up, they are headed straight to the doctor not back in the shiai-jo. If it's a kid I am always going to err on the side of caution. But if it's just a twisted ankle or something and an adult wants to continue, then they should be allowed to continue.

I should have qualified my previous response with the kind of thing Neil points out here..

[MikeW]

Charlie, I was watching as Elizabeth was being worked on and was amazed she was able to get up and hobble back onto the shiaijo. She was in obvious pain and couldn't really move well but stood her ground well. As Rogers mentioned she went back in because she didn't want to give 2 easy points to the other team. In this particular case her dad was there (coach) and he tried to talk her out of it but relented and let her make up her own mind. As for the shinpan responsibility, I think I go along with Neil and if it is isn't a case where someone is banged in the head and goes unconscious (possible concussion) and is not bleeding profusely or with an obvious broken bone I would be inclined to let the person and their coach make the decision.

[Charlie]

Dude...seriously!!!

There would NEVAH!! have been any karate kid sequels (not even the latest kung fu version) if Daniel-san was eliminated cos he hurt his leg...

He would NEVAH!! have totally PWNED with the crane...

Charlie... how could you even suggest such a thing ;)

I suggest.... you sweep the leg. Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Bobdonny?!

[bobdonny]

I suggest.... you sweep the leg. Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Bobdonny?!

HAI...
NO mercy....
Out of comission!!

;-)

[rfoxmich]

Finished a key work item this a.m. so I have too much time on my hands:

Unfortunately I've loaned my current copy of shinpan rules but I do have the 1996 copy, Someone with a current copy can advise if there are material changes (might be since the wording of the first sentence is a bit bizarre in the context of the remainder):..all typos are mine
Section2, Article 20 (injury or accident):
"In case Shiai-sha is unable to continue Shiai due to an injury or an accident, Shinpan-in shall ascrtain the cause and handle the matter in the following manner:
1. Shinpan-in shall determine whether to continue Shiai after consulting with a doctor. As a general rule, Shinpan-in shall spend no more than give minutes handling an accident;
2. In case Shiai-sha is unable to continue Shiai due to an injury, should the opponent be deemed responsible for the accident, whether intentionally or not, the opponent shall lose Shiai whereas if the cause of the accident cannot be ascertained, Shiaia-funo-sha shalllosed Shiai;
3. Shiai-sha who has been regarded incapacitated due to an injury or an accident may bve reinstated in other shiai to follow if a doctor an Shinpan-in allow Shiai-sha to do so; and
4. Shiai-sha who has lost Shiai through causing an accident shall not be allowed to participate in other Shiai to follow
(Kiken).
..
Article 32
"The winner by virtue of Articles 30 or 31 shall be given two ponits while one point, if scored by Shiai-funo-sha shall remain valid. However in Encho, the winner shall be given one point.
Article 33
The points or acquired status of the offender who has lost Shiai due to Article 30 Item 2 shall be invalidated"

Summarizing: the ability to continue the match is a decision of the Shinpan in consultation with qualified medical personnel.
The result of the match is not necessarily a loss by the injured person. Instead, if the injury was due the opponent, the injured party wins and the opponent is disqualified from further participation (e.g. in pool play or team matches).
A disqualified person loses 'status and points' if responsible for an injury e.g. suppose this match was the individual final the person responsible for the injury is _NOT_ awarded second place.


Responsibility does not have to be judged intentional...though if it were me deciding I'd like to see material responsibility rather than something like the injured person tripped on the other person's hakama. A better example of where I might find responsibility is some smallish person strikes and going in is absolutely decked by a much larger opponent, hits the back of their head on the ground and, as a result is concussed and judged unable to continue. The opponent possibly didn't intend to knock the opponent out of competition but was responsible for the injury.

The injured party _CAN_ compete again even if their match is stopped. There are two conditions for this:
- The tournament would allow them to compete regardless of the result of the match (Team play, pool play or they won the match in which they were injured in accordance with 30.s).
- Medical consultation with shinpan qualify the person to continue.

Example: in a team match someone twists and ankle and is judged unable to continue...no fault assessed to the opponent...the injured person's team wins. Meanwhile the team trainer (you all have them right) tapes the living crap out of the ankle. In conjunction with the shipan (shinpan-cho?), the person can be re qualified to compete in subsequent team matches.


Here's the interesting note: The actual resolution of the match, in case of no responsibility is not described in Art 30. Is that better resolved in newer versions of the regulations? Art. 7 (decision of Victory) is no help here either. Of course all of this is subject to Appendix 1 which basically says the organizers of the tournament can do whatever the hell they want for their convenience as long as the "purspoe of the Regulations and Subsidir Rules are not infringed"

[Neil Gendzwill]

They haven't changed much if at all in the latest rules. Ron, you already quoted the relevant bit from article 30 point 2: "if the cause of the accident cannot be ascertained, Shiai-funo-sha shall lose Shiai". It actually does not state the case where the competitor is the cause of his own accident but common sense says they lose in that case also.

[rfoxmich]

I think the match Charlie saw was in the MWKF taikai last fall... and it was Yuka "I'm not gonna loose this match" Saathoff that got up... won and then claimed a pair of crutches.



Charlie, I was watching as Elizabeth was being worked on and was amazed she was able to get up and hobble back onto the shiaijo. She was in obvious pain and couldn't really move well but stood her ground well. As Rogers mentioned she went back in because she didn't want to give 2 easy points to the other team. In this particular case her dad was there (coach) and he tried to talk her out of it but relented and let her make up her own mind. As for the shinpan responsibility, I think I go along with Neil and if it is isn't a case where someone is banged in the head and goes unconscious (possible concussion) and is not bleeding profusely or with an obvious broken bone I would be inclined to let the person and their coach make the decision.

[Charlie]

I think you're right, Ron. There was at least one other instance but I am not recalling who the competitors were.