Do you believe in ki?

[Charlie]

Simple question. Honestly, I barely understand the concept but was struck recently by a passage on the topic in Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword in which he took it as a given and even stated rather off handedly that it had been empirically observed.

Some grounding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

Basically, the way I understand ki (chi, qi) is that it is energy flowing through everything in the world (universe?), and that it can be arrested, synched to another being, and harnessed for healing or harm; in kendo we learn the harm part.

My basic belief in ki is that I don't know much about it, have sort of put it on hold, but that it can be understood through basic psychological means as well as a spiritual concept. In other words, you kiai to harness ki, but you could also interpret this as simply exhaling breath to give yourself the most power.

Big topic. What say you?

[Charlie]

btw, I probably should have searched for this topic first. I apologize for any redundancy.

[stealth_monkey]

No. The one thing I've found is that ki seems to refer to whatever the person talking about it wants it to refer to. But in terms of the "universal life energy" definition, show me the study that empirically observed it and I'll change my mind, but until then the subject is so untestable that I'm happy to leave it in the psuedoscience basket until someone comes up with a better idea.

[Halcyon]

Do I believe that you can shoot ki lightning bolts out of your fingertips? No.

Rather, I think ki is best understood as a rubric for many physical and mental attributes that encompass things as varied as physical prowess, mental alertness and willpower. This book "Ki and the Way of the Martial Arts" is all about this topic.

http://www.amazon.com/Way-Martial-Arts-Kenji-Tokitsu/dp/1570629986/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318449492&sr=8-1

The author (a noted karate sensei) talks about how ki is the defining quality of budo, and that kendo, in particular, is a "privileged discipline" because it allows the expression of ki more than other martial arts. Here's the thread I started about it a while back.

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php/23190-Expressing-ki-kendo-vs.-other-martial-arts?highlight=tokitsu

[turboyoshi]

I'm not one of those people who believes in mysticism or other non scientific phenoma. I believe in ki but I'm not sure if we have the same idea of what it is. I'm not sure i understand it well enough to describe what it is. I think I can recognize some of it's manifestations though. I think the Eastern concept of ki tends to include a wide array of natural phenomena that the Western world would separate into categories; like biomechanics, focus, "heart" , etc. So, I believe in biomechanics and focus and such therefore I believe in ki. That's how I see it.
When you kiai, your core becomes tense which can add power of your legs and hips to your technique. Then you are striking with the whole body working together to produce a strike that is both more efficient and more powerful. Nothing mystical about that. In similar fashion, I think any phenomena involving ki can be explained in more scientific terms. But if you try to talk about ki as some metaphysical thing that can't be measured in any meaningful way, then I think I would disagree.

[Anorymous]

What I do believe:
Paying attention to one's breathing is essential in battle. Using one's abdominal and groin muscles to breathe helps multiply the amount of air that can be stored in one's lungs, and kiai can really help produce better strikes and better oxygenation.
There's a myriad things that one can subconsciously pick up and understand about one's opponent. Maybe it's a microscopic quiver. Maybe it's a hormone he/she started secreting. Maybe it's the rhythm of his/her breathing. I have no idea what exactly those could be, but many people will attest to feeling their opponent's "spirit".

Those, I think, are enough for one to speak about "ki" and have a concrete meaning in mind.

[b8amack]

No. Five characters of no.

[sirius1906]

i believe in the force.

[jjcruiser]

Basically, the way I understand ki (chi, qi) is that it is energy flowing through everything in the world (universe?), and that it can be arrested, synched to another being, and harnessed for healing or harm; in kendo we learn the harm part.


Well, there's a lot of spiritual stuff in the world I believe probably exists (esp, ghosts, etc.) even though I can't prove it and don't understand it, but this might go a bit beyond what I'd say I "believe in" - particularly the "harm" description part of it. On the other hand, I suspect that for some of the more nuanced descriptions of it, including how Halcyon described it, I'd say yes.

[hl1978]

Yes, but there is so much misunderstanding in the western world (and in asian martial arts in asia) as to what it is that it is completely hilarious. Heck go talk to aikido people and most have a horrible misunderstanding of what ki is in their own martial art as so many have confused some sort of new age mysticism with what are references to discrete physical power. I do have to admit that this may be a deliberate result of changes made by the founder's son in order to expand the organization.

As for using "the force" to blast people back, well not so much, but in aspects of kizeme sure, and for what the chinese refer to as qi(kokyu power)/jin (downpower, non-localized muscle usage initated from the middle) you bet as well.

You can wind up with all sorts of woo/woo sensations because you simply don't feel the opponent initate with local muscle. They may quite literally connect to your center of mass and move you around without using pain compliance, waza, superior timing/larger muscles, or find yourself merely pushed back without any feedback at all. Say for example you read some text that says you gather ki from the ground and extend it on out through the body. You can come up with some wacky spirtual thing, or look at it as newton's third law of motion.

Lets start with what do the radicals mean in ki.....

Air pressure.... Think of a pressure cooker.

However mere breath alone doesn't work beyond a superficial understanding one gains for grunting for more power. Breathwork condtions they body so that you can push and pull the body like pressing on a inflated rubber person. For example you squeeze the leg, and it causes the air inside to be displaced and expands and moves the arms, or head or whatever else. More recently I have had experiences which has completely changed my understanding of fumikomi. Through breathwork, I have found myself quite literally pulled "into" my front foot without raising, lowering, falling into my front foot or pushing harder off the rear leg/hip/inner thigh. Its as though my entire being (and not in a spiritual way) went into my front foot. This is what I now understand ki ken tai really meaning instead of merely timing. Additionally, though an inhalation alone, it caused my foot to raise off the ground instead of using the hip or quads to raise it. According to people who felt the impact, its as though my strike was 5x more powerful, though its not through any superior weight transfer or more use of the upper body. I will note however that I am not nearly conditoined enough to pull it off under duress, I have to think and feel a lot in order to pull that particular thing off however that is what iaido practice is for and why you move slowly.

When you start looking at this sort of thing in this sort of manner through experience, all those old saying regarding ki take on new meanings and shows how far off a lot of people were. I don't blame them as if you want to really understand the subject matter you need to look into internal martial arts training or find a good yoga teacher.

[b8amack]

Yes, but there is so much misunderstanding in the western world (and in asian martial arts in asia) as to what it is that it is completely hilarious. Heck go talk to aikido people and most have a horrible misunderstanding of what ki is in their own martial art as so many have confused some sort of new age mysticism with what are references to discrete physical power. I do have to admit that this may be a deliberate result of changes made by the founder's son in order to expand the organization.

As for using "the force" to blast people back, well not so much, but in aspects of kizeme sure, and for what the chinese refer to as qi(kokyu power)/jin (downpower, non-localized muscle usage initated from the middle) you bet as well.

You can wind up with all sorts of woo/woo sensations because you simply don't feel the opponent initate with local muscle. They may quite literally connect to your center of mass and move you around without using pain compliance, waza, superior timing/larger muscles, or find yourself merely pushed back without any feedback at all. Say for example you read some text that says you gather ki from the ground and extend it on out through the body. You can come up with some wacky spirtual thing, or look at it as newton's third law of motion.

Lets start with what do the radicals mean in ki.....

Air pressure.... Think of a pressure cooker.

However mere breath alone doesn't work beyond a superficial understanding one gains for grunting for more power. Breathwork condtions they body so that you can push and pull the body like pressing on a inflated rubber person. For example you squeeze the leg, and it causes the air inside to be displaced and expands and moves the arms, or head or whatever else. More recently I have had experiences which has completely changed my understanding of fumikomi. Through breathwork, I have found myself quite literally pulled "into" my front foot without raising, lowering, falling into my front foot or pushing harder off the rear leg/hip/inner thigh. Its as though my entire being (and not in a spiritual way) went into my front foot. This is what I now understand ki ken tai really meaning instead of merely timing. Additionally, though an inhalation alone, it caused my foot to raise off the ground instead of using the hip or quads to raise it. According to people who felt the impact, its as though my strike was 5x more powerful, though its not through any superior weight transfer or more use of the upper body. I will note however that I am not nearly conditoined enough to pull it off under duress, I have to think and feel a lot in order to pull that particular thing off however that is what iaido practice is for and why you move slowly.

When you start looking at this sort of thing in this sort of manner through experience, all those old saying regarding ki take on new meanings and shows how far off a lot of people were. I don't blame them as if you want to really understand the subject matter you need to look into internal martial arts training or find a good yoga teacher.


All of this. No.

[UnimportantHero]

I dunno. Maybe.

I am a Johannite Christian which means that I ostensibly believe in a religion which teaches that there are angels, demons, and other spiritual forces at work in the world and so forth. So compared to that I suppose the notion that there is an internal energy, which is best emphasized through a harmonious working of the human body, is not so outlandish or absurd. I do know (or so my teachers have taught me) that no human uses all their muscle strength in any given moment unless they are under terrible stress, and that muscle strength has as much to do with the brain communicating how much muscle to use in a motion, and so on. So I do believe that simple discipline and focus alone could POSSIBLY achieve seemingly superhuman feats that otherwise only ever happen in rare and extreme moments. Whether that is the same thing or not... I dunno.


All of this. No.

Cranky man.

[b8amack]

Cranky man.

It's not cranky to refuse to accept someone claiming that he lifted his foot through inhalation.

[Josh Reyer]

Absolutely. Just about everyday I check my Android to see what the heavenly ki forecast is. After a long day of work, I feel like I have no foundational ki. So I might take a hot bath, which has really good ki-bearing. I also make sure to affix my ki to turning off the lights, and unplugging appliances I don't use, so I can keep my lightning ki bill as low as possible.

[rfoxmich]

"Ki... Seems people who talk most about it know least"
- Maeda Sachio sensei.

[Fudo-Shin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAV5avfDBiw&feature=related

[Charlie]

Thanks for your answers, guys. Sounds like many of you have an approach to it similar to me: de-mistify it, for starters, take away any incredible claims, understand it simultaneously as something explainable through biomechanics and psychology, but also leave the door open for maybe something more.

Unimportant: I'm a religious person myself, a Christian, so definitely believe in the supernatural forces you describe. That said, my spiritual training is western in origin, not eastern, and has never addressed the topic of ki - again, you pointed this out. That said, I've made no serious attempt to reconcile them in my mind. I've noticed over time that in the Asian mindset, it's acceptable to take an attitude of simultaneously believing things that seem irreconcilable or letting them blend into one vague belief, or simply taking an attitude toward some things of, "I don't know how that works but I know that it works and if it helps to describe it in this way then I'm okay with it even if I don't fully believe it." So I think I'm saying I find myself adopting that sort of attitude about things, certainly towards ki.

Halcyon, I'ma check out that thread next, thank you.

[hl1978]

It's not cranky to refuse to accept someone claiming that he lifted his foot through inhalation.

You can read a couple of papers on this sort of thing (the fascia) and come to the conclusion that you can use something other than exclusively local muscle to move a limb. What the latest flavour of the month is that when you are doing the conditoining associated with breathwork, that it is the fascia that you are conditioning. That is to say that long term conditioning allows for fascial contraction, most likely as a result of a chemical process, with this strechy spandex like layer contracted you can move the body in that balloon man model. This feels much like if you were wearing a spiderman suit. If you were to tug on one part of it, it would pull another part of it. In yoga, more expereinced practioners are able to hold poses through conditioning this sort of tension, wheras beginers use muscle to hold the positions and easily tire.

Or you can go meet some guys from the Chen Village (CXW, Chen Bing, CZQ), Akuzawa Minoru, Dan Harden, Forrest Chang etc. Or (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=182831&postcount=1299)you can (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=241416&highlight=breath#post241416)go read accounts (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?p=254966&highlight=bokken#post254966)by Ellis Amdur who will tell you the exact same stuff I have said on this website since he has either felt the same guys I have (and has written about it, both online and in hidden in plain sight) and trains much of the same stuff I do as well for conditioning.

Ellis isn't really considered a charlatain in the online martial arts community, and has trained with my teacher, and met me too, but never felt me as it would have been inappropriate for the venue we were at at the time. In his research, he indicates that much of the stuff that I talk about was present in JMA until the late 1800's and died out. From his exposure to the concepts and training regimens I have referred to, he started to better understand what his particular ryu was actually working on.

Or you can go read the accounts of the various guys who can/could exhibit the various power displays related to ki, and see that they spend a hell of a lot of time on solo conditioning (breathwork, shaking weapons, suburi powered by breath) rather than waza work, and that when they did do forms/partner work it wasn't waza they were working on but manipulating their opponents center of mass through non-local muscle.

---

Now if you have this understanding and the resultant conditioning, then you learn that inhalation is not a suki at all, but rather how one can power raising the shinai. If you don't have that understanding then the typical understanding of kokyu as "breath control" where you minimize your inhalation time and slowly exhale to a creschendo applies.

I'm going to cut and paste a post below by Ellis where he describes some of the demo's he can do with weapons using "ki". Anyone who has seen some of Kuroda's demos might recognize them.

Likewise I will cut and paste an explanation by Mike Sigman with some videos which will help explain many of the concepts assocaited with ki, using the hara, etc that we have all heard, but tend to make little sense.

[hl1978]

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=254966&postcount=79



I've been seriously working on ki/kokyu skills for approximately two years. What I mean by "seriously" is that I've received specific instructions on training exercises from several high level people. And have been following their recommendations and instruction.
1. One of the most important trainings I've been doing is what is called spear/pole shaking.
2. I just went to Japan, and spent several practices with the Toda-ha Buko-ryu dojo. I've been away 20 years, we have a new soke and the Tokyo dojo has it's own shihan.
3. We have a number of moves in which one deflects/attacks the enemy by "knocking down/knocking up" their weapon. Rather than striking from some separation - the customary way - I was able repeatedly have our two weapons touching and without any wind-up, pull-back or discernible movement, pulse/fling their weapon aside and continue in to a cut that they could not stop.
4. There is always the "danger" of accommodation, due to following the kata pattern - but my training partner, the other shihan, a very big guy, who is also proud of his involvement in another koryu, said that he doubted I could do that if he had a bokken. We tried, our weapon's touching. He locked down his muscles - yet I "flung" his weapon up into his face and cut him in the same motion. He tried again with the naginata, and it was just as easy.
6. Then, for fun, I tried something I'd never tried, but having seen Kuroda Tetsuzan do something similar in a video, I wanted to see what would happen. Linking naginata with one student, I did downward pulse/drops and upward pulse/like flinging snow. I whispered to people off to the side ("neck" and do the move and his neck would come forward, "hara" and do the move and he'd collapse at the waist.). (This is an aspect that is referred to as "jin"). The guy I was working with could not hear what I said, so it was not "suggestion"

A couple of points:
a. These people were not colluding - they were, in fact, defending what our previous sensei had taught them, because I was showing something different and they wanted proof that what I was doing worked.
b. As I said at the beginning, I could show/explain this easily - I'm not even going to begin try to explain here - other than to say it included a ki/kokyu connected body, use of the hara as director of the force, and "ground path" (TM). Seriously, if I meet with anyone reading this, I'll be happy to show what little I know - because I'm still scratching at the surface. I'm not holding back. It does not change the form. It does not require me to assume a special posture, or architect a specific "ki-trick" exercise. It's like shifting from a gas guzzling "muscle car" to a Tesla.
c. the best part of this. Our new soke is young - 40 years old, and very much junior to me and the other shihan in the Tokyo dojo. He stopped me and my training partner and said, "Nitta sensei did not teach it that way." I said, "I know. She didn't teach me that way either. This is something I've been working on. I saw the possibilities in the kata and this is what I've come up with." He said, "Well, I don't know if they used to do things this way in the old days, or if you've found this. But it's far better than what we are doing." And he stopped the class, told everyone to gather around and asked me to demonstrate it, one by one, on each member of the dojo, and then asked if I would show the exercises I used to develop the ability I had. <That is a man worth following - he cares about getting stronger, not about his "position">

As for explanations, I've nothing to contribute that is new, as everything I've learned has come from the "usual suspects."
Having worked with Mike Sigman, Dan Harden, Akuwawa and several high level teachers of Chinese internal training, I know what I know and what I don't. I started out as a 1 on the 10 scale. I give myself a 2.3, at best. These people are far above me - at least so far I still have a long way to go. But given that the question is if this has any relevance to weapons training, yes, beyond a doubt. It is not at all about being immovable, withstanding blows. The idea that aiki cannot help you because one cannot withstand a sword blow is utterly off the mark of how aiki or ki/kokyu can help your weapon's work.

Best
Ellis Amdur

[hl1978]

http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/mike-sigmans-blog-6969/baseline-internal-strength-parameters-4216/

the above post is just way to long to cut and paste, but is a good intro to these sorts of concepts.

On a side note, Rickson Gracie apparently credits some of his success to this sort of training as well. Josh Lerner just recently posted a thread about this on aikiweb.

[Charlie]

Thanks, hl!

This was really helpful, from Halcyon, in the other thread:

The author, Tokitsu sensei, writes about this issue of ki being elusive to some people.

"In Western languages, there does not exist -- and this is one of the major difficulties for translation -- a word equivalent to ki. In Japanese this term covers various sensations and impressions that are mysterious, vague, and intangible, that touch upon something in the deepest part of our being, something that is connected with a level of insight that is probably archaic or repressed.

This difficult-to-define body of impressions is present in the experience of the everyday life, the literature, and the arts of Japan. When it is necessary to name it, people call it ki."

Shortly later, he goes on to add: "The sensation of ki is intensified when speculative self-consciousness is pushed into the background. This happens to varying degrees depending on how much people are willing to let go of their ego in deferring to what surrounds them. If ego is reinforced, the sensation of ki diminishes."

[Toshiro Mifune]

I don't believe you can use it to pull a Mr. Miyagi and heal someone instant touch. But accupuncture and some of those other Eastern Asian healing methods that concentrate on redirctecting ki are not as radical now. I wouldn't necesarily say to "harm" but yes to generate power I belive in ki. It is not always easily realized in kendo even with people with high ranks. Someone like Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang if you see his Chen Style Tai Chi, it is probably easier for me to see the usuage of ki. He is probably 66 years old but his movements can be hard or soft and generate power but being relaxed. You have to see it in person and perhaps physically be involved in trying to move him with the help of 4 other people with no success.

[hl1978]

I don't believe you can use it to pull a Mr. Miyagi and heal someone instant touch. But accupuncture and some of those other Eastern Asian healing methods that concentrate on redirctecting ki are not as radical now. I wouldn't necesarily say to "harm" but yes to generate power I belive in ki. It is not always easily realized in kendo even with people with high ranks. Someone like Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang if you see his Chen Style Tai Chi, it is probably easier for me to see the usuage of ki. He is probably 66 years old but his movements can be hard or soft and generate power but being relaxed. You have to see it in person and perhaps physically be involved in trying to move him with the help of 4 other people with no success.

Summerlin, did CXW toss people around at the seminar you went to? The one I went too, he only did adjustments as people complianed in the past about being tossed around. I was disapointed, as I try and feel every high level IMA guy I can get my hands on.

[Toshiro Mifune]

Hunter: I actually missed a seminar with CXW but I have attended a seminar with his nephew Chen Ziqiang. After doing basic warmup he does in all his classes and covering standing and silk reeling we did Push Hands. Chen Ziqiang would go around to do corrections and more painfully show you by demonstrating on you. This was only Level 1 and Level 2 and the floor we practice on is quite hard. But we showing the many applications he quickly threw my instructor with a small movement. He grabbed him ensuring he didn't hit the ground with full force but it still probably was painful. Chen Ziqiang is also probably 1/2 the size of my instructor who trained with Donnie Yen under his mother Master Bow-sim Mark and also appeared in a couple of Donnie Yen's movies. So I can imagine if people were complaining about CXW throwing them around.

[jjcruiser]

btw, I probably should have searched for this topic first. I apologize for any redundancy.

Don't. Cool thread this has turned into. Sometimes it's nice to have a new active discussion rather than just read three-year old threads.

[hl1978]

Hunter: I actually missed a seminar with CXW but I have attended a seminar with his nephew Chen Ziqiang. After doing basic warmup he does in all his classes and covering standing and silk reeling we did Push Hands. Chen Ziqiang would go around to do corrections and more painfully show you by demonstrating on you. This was only Level 1 and Level 2 and the floor we practice on is quite hard. But we showing the many applications he quickly threw my instructor with a small movement. He grabbed him ensuring he didn't hit the ground with full force but it still probably was painful. Chen Ziqiang is also probably 1/2 the size of my instructor who trained with Donnie Yen under his mother Master Bow-sim Mark and also appeared in a couple of Donnie Yen's movies. So I can imagine if people were complaining about CXW throwing them around.

Yep I've met your instructor before. I think his was the same seminar that Chris went to and my buddy alex.

Its pretty nuts what some of these guys can do against big guys. Its that sort of power that they demonstrate that I've been aiming on putting into my own kendo. The fact that they aren't big, aren't built like a worlds strongest man, and don't use any sort of wind up makes it all the more impressive. If Chen Bing comes to town, I really would love to hit one of his seminars as well.

[JSchmidt]

So, does this tie into to your claim about being able to make people feel pain when they hit your men?

[enkorat]

Charlie,

There are some days when I miss drinking beer with you at the Tower Inn and ranting about certain things, and this is a topic that I would have liked to talk to you about over a few beers.

My particular perspective on "Ki" has been colored by a singular event back in my undergrad college days. I took a 1/2 credit course called "Complimentary Medicine" where outside speakers came in to talk about non-standard medical treatments, and some were really interesting and believable, and others you came away with the idea that these people were really off the wall. We had to write a short essay after each seminar with an evaluation on each speaker. One day we had a woman come in and talk about "Ki". Now, this was Berkeley, CA, and lets just say that she had been around since the 60's, and she was a full-on mystic, moonbeam, mysteries of the Orient type person, where for 45 minutes I had to endure listening to someone completely butcher and misrepresent parts of my culture. I reacted poorly in my post-seminar essay and ranted for a page and a half. I seem to remember writing "completely misguided" and "culturally ignorant", and "an appalling waste of time".

But I was young, hot-headed and easily offended back then.

I think my own understanding of "ki" and how it relates to English goes to the root of the difference between the differences between Japanese and English. In English, and most western languages (both German and Latin based languages), I feel that words are very precise in their meaning, and each word has distinct meanings and concepts. For example (and this is probably a bad example) , "energy" and "spirit" mean two very different things. If you're in a physics class, "energy" is defined as the ability to do work. In biology class, energy can be defined as the number of ATP molecules you generate from a glucose molecule. In either physics class or biology, you wouldn't be able to substitute the word "spirit" for "energy", because you would end up meaning something completely inappropriate.

Japanese on the other hand is a language that thrives on vagueness. Not only does "ki" have different meanings itself, but "ki" the character is combined with hundreds of other characters to mean different meanings. For example (again, not a really great one) , the word for "mood" is "ki bun", while "electricity" is "den ki". So in any conversation with the word "ki", it depends on the context as to what you mean. However, its quite possible (and often this is the case) that when you're talking philosophy you mean simultaneously different meanings all at the same time, with each meaning contributing somewhat to a part of the whole word.

This is hard to explain, but to use a different kind of example, once in high school, our literature textbook had several examples of haikus. Interestingly enough for an American textbook, the haiku was written in both English and in Japanese. When I read the Japanese haiku, I went "wow", because in the Japanese version, the writer was able to express an entire world, along with his complex emotion of wistful introspection and slight regret all in the space of a few characters. My American friend looked at the page, and was very not impressed with the haiku. And in fact, when I read the English version, it was like just reading the subtitles in a movie, without watching the movie. The "information" was there, but because the English language is just "different" from Japanese, you didn't get the "picture" that went along with the subtitles. You didn't get the camera angles, the lighting, the colors, the music, the sound, the facial expressions.

So what does this have to do with "ki" and its meaning? My feelings are that "ki", at least for me, is a word that explains a lot of different things all at the same time. Simultaneously to me, it has mundane meanings as well as spiritual meanings, kind of like on a bell curve or continuum. In Kendo, "ki" has both very physical manifestations, as well as spiritual and emotional meanings. Thus I believe that "ki" exists, but to me that sort of means "emotion/spirit/fear/resoluteness/determination/hope/compassion/understanding/stuborness/detachment/confidence/feeling/connection/will/acceptance of things greater than oneself" exists, all at the same time, so to ask whether or not I "believe" in all these things is a moot point.

But I feel that a lot of people who talk about ki either fixate on the extreme "ends" of the continuum, or indulge in mysticism, and I don't think that's very helpful for kendoists. To me, "ki" isn't just "These aren't the droids you're looking for", which I think a lot of Western interpretations fixate on because it makes the particular person sound irreproachable.

This is my personal bias talking, but one of the reasons why I like Kendo is that even though "ki" is something we all learn and experience, Kendo isn't a "mystical art". I've practiced with a few hachidans, and practicing with them and other kodansha its very clear to me that there are things that I don't yet understand. If you corner me and demand to know what it is that I don't understand, I would say that rather than not knowing some secret technique or waza, its that they can unbalance my "ki". That sounds mystical, like they can "break" me without physically doing anything, but to me its very real.

This is a poor attempt at explaining my views, but I hope its interesting

[enkorat]

Hmm

I guess I should add one more thought....

I think its very important to keep this "multiple meaning" vagueness in mind particularly when listening to a Japanese sensei, say at a seminar, because although he might be talking about "ki", I think you very much have to pay close attention to the context of the discussion, because you have to really parse what kind of "ki" he's talking about. This is even more challenging if its being filtered through an interpreter.....

[hl1978]

So, does this tie into to your claim about being able to make people feel pain when they hit your men?

Yep, though that was on particular person. I have however punched people and it felt like I punched a brick wall despite those guys not being built like Magnuss ver Magnussen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magn%C3%BAs_Ver_Magn%C3%BAsson). You can use it a different way and someone will bounce off you, or toss themselves. The head of our kendo club was puzzled on more than one occasion why he tai atarired me and he got launched backwards despite me not moving into him and Im lighter and have a higher center of gravity.

Even more strangely, you can have someone grip you and you don't feel like you can move because there is for lack of a better term, its as though an oppressive weight is resting upon on you, or perhaps they grip you and you feel off balanced despite no visible movement of their body. Alternatively they grip you but you feel nothing at all like there is a ghost. There are a wide variety of skills associated with ki that are a function of certain types of training that feel just spooky and don't require the use of particular waza, but rather principles of movement and conditioning.

If anyone has an interest, a lot of the Chen guys have seminars where they will demo this stuff for a minimal cost as part of the seminar, or you can look into training groups.


Hmm

I guess I should add one more thought....

I think its very important to keep this "multiple meaning" vagueness in mind particularly when listening to a Japanese sensei, say at a seminar, because although he might be talking about "ki", I think you very much have to pay close attention to the context of the discussion, because you have to really parse what kind of "ki" he's talking about. This is even more challenging if its being filtered through an interpreter.....

enkorat, your comments are quite apt. When viewed in that sort of light it can make you wonder how much was lost in english language translation by translators lacking contextual or martial knowledge. Here is one such example:


"Spiraling Energy' has become something of a catch-phrase in the last 15 years and a number of 'teachers' use the term (there's a couple of ladies in my town who teach 'spiraling energy', as a matter of fact). It's sort of a misunderstanding, much like the way that the famous Chen-style "shaking power" got mistranslated as "vibrating power" (get it? "shake" *could* be mistakenly translated as "vibrate") and people came up with all sorts of theories about high-frequency vibrations generating enormous power (See Waysun Liao's book as an example).

'Spiraling Energy' was a term that has been often used since the 1970's and comes from the term "Chansijin" which means roughly "Reeling Silk trained-physical-skill". True, one of the dictionary possibilities for "jin" is "energy" and a lot of the New Age era translators opted to do just that... but it missed the point and it started a great amount of misunderstanding because "energy" is simply misleading.

Spiraling in Reeling Silk exercises and application involves all parts of the body turning (sometimes just the tensions inside and other factors are doing the actual moving, but there is indeed movement, not intangible 'energy').

I'm sure you can point out a number that you might have seen in english language texts.

[Charlie]

These aren't the droids we're looking for. You can go about your business. Move along.

Ken, thank you for that *excellent* post!

[UnimportantHero]

It's not cranky to refuse to accept someone claiming that he lifted his foot through inhalation.

Huh? I thought I would just state a general fac... ehherm... Craaaaaaanky maaaaaan!

;p

[b8amack]

Huh? I thought I would just state a general fac... ehherm... Craaaaaaanky maaaaaan!

;p

Really? This thread has made me laugh several times. But I guess wide-eyed acceptance is the only "normal" for you? In which case I could tell you a story about why all the Easter Bunny's "eggs" are "chocolate". ;)

[JSchmidt]

Yep, though that was on particular person. I have however punched people and it felt like I punched a brick wall despite those guys not being built like Magnuss ver Magnussen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magn%C3%BAs_Ver_Magn%C3%BAsson). You can use it a different way and someone will bounce off you, or toss themselves. The head of our kendo club was puzzled on more than one occasion why he tai atarired me and he got launched backwards despite me not moving into him and Im lighter and have a higher center of gravity.
.


Well, you must be steamrolling people in taikais then, I presume?

[b8amack]

He doesn't even need ippon. He can just quadruple hansoku his way to wins.

[hl1978]

Well, you must be steamrolling people in taikais then, I presume?

Have I won matches by bouncing people out rather than pushing out? Sure. Do I care to do so to win a tournament? Not really.

First time I did it in a tournament setting I actually was surprised. I knocked the guy back 6-8 feet, resulting in my opponent being twised 180 so his back was facing me and he was bent over. I was too surprised to run after him and hit his men as he regained his balance. For the rest of the match he never wanted to get close enough to be tai ataried.

The last tournament I entered I faced Strawn Sensei to a draw. I didn't feel it would be appropriate to knock him in such a fashion even though that would have won the round for my team.

[Mako]

I think ki is best understood as a rubric for many physical and mental attributes that encompass things as varied as physical prowess, mental alertness and willpower.

I dont believe in the new age/mystical/cult notion of ki that has wrecked martial arts like Aikido and Karate so this is the only definition of Ki that I would accept as relevant to me for Kendo.

I've heard other kendoka refer to ki but have never experienced it myself.
When I lose a match there's no mystery to it; the other kendoka was just plain faster, better trained, more experienced, stronger, smarter, more agile, or had better judgment etc.
Kendo is demanding enough as it is and does not need another esoteric notion added to it.

[UnimportantHero]

But I guess wide-eyed acceptance is the only "normal" for you?

Pssssssh!

Searching for a comeback.

Um.

Pssssssh!


In which case I could tell you a story about why all the Easter Bunny's "eggs" are "chocolate". ;)

Do share. ;)

[Charlie]

So I don't know if this is the right place for this but I have an intriguing thought about haiku. I don't speak or read much Japanese but I have been enjoying Japanese literature for much of my life and I have often come across these translation problems in Japanese poetry, not just haiku. These poems have to be explained by the translator, usually in a footnote that reads something like, "such and such word is also the name of a castle and an alternative spelling of so-and-so's name, so this is an elaborate and clever pun that means...."

Now, I have enjoyed haiku written by native English speakers but prefer Jack Kerouac's take on it: borrow the concept but don't duplicate the rules, because they can't be duplicated. In other words, Kerouac throws out the syllable rule and the double or triple meaning of words rule and just tries to capture the guts of the thing. And does so very well, I am mesmerized by his spoken "blues and haikus" against a saxophone and piano background.

For haiku to be translated into Enlgish: why don't translators instead of squeezing them into three lines instead take a whole paragraph to try and capture it? I mean you can't get the language because the two are irreconcilable so why not just play it out in prose rather than strict lines? So take a haiku that poets have been trying to nail for decades:

http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto

Instead of:


The old pond;
A frog jumps in —
The sound of the water.

Why not take an entire paragraph to try to do it justice, since you'll never be able to translate it anyway? The English language can't carry the verse over. Take a prose stab at it instead. Something like:

I am sitting beside an ancient pond that is absolutely still. I feel like I am the only person in this perfect moment of solitude and tranquility. My mind is as reposed as the water. Suddenly, there is a soft splash. Even as I hear the sound I realize it is the noise of a frog jumping in and breaking the surface of the water. It's gently startling. Even more startling is the stillness that closes in a moment later.

I'm no poet, but something like that.

[Halcyon]

Why not take an entire paragraph to try to do it justice, since you'll never be able to translate it anyway? The English language can't carry the verse over. Take a prose stab at it instead.
I think because one of the key appeals of haiku is the verbal equivalent of "negative space." If you flesh it out too much, then you destroy the spareness that is the very essence of haiku. That negative space creates the room for your imagination to roam a little bit and fill in the gaps.

[Charlie]

I think because one of the key appeals of haiku is the verbal equivalent of "negative space." If you flesh it out too much, then you destroy the spareness that is the very essence of haiku. That negative space creates the room for your imagination to roam a little bit and fill in the gaps.

Can this be done in translation though? I agree it can be done in English. What's the best translation of pond-frog?

Here's Kerouac's take. He called these "American haiku" and I think it retains the spirit of haiku but not the letter of it, and creates the negative space you describe:

http://youtu.be/uPWHEMOF_mk

[turboyoshi]

Kendo is demanding enough as it is and does not need another esoteric notion added to it.
Ki is already a part of Kendo so you can't avoid it. I don't think it's important to understand the concept to further your own progress because I think ki is a thing that you will develop naturally as a result of sincere training. However, I think discussing these things is useful in that we can then make an attempt to demystify it for those people who have strange ideas about these concepts. There will come a time when you, as a instructor, will have to deal with students asking about such concepts, believing they need to grasp the idea so they can become a god of kendo. If you can demystify it for them, at least some of them will take it to heart and learn to outgrow such useless thinking and get back to the real training. It also helps them to begin to recognize fraudulent instructors who talk like they know such things as part of their con job.

[enkorat]

http://www.bopsecrets.org/gateway/passages/basho-frog.htm

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto

Instead of:


The old pond;
A frog jumps in —
The sound of the water.

Why not take an entire paragraph to try to do it justice, since you'll never be able to translate it anyway? The English language can't carry the verse over. Take a prose stab at it instead. Something like:

I am sitting beside an ancient pond that is absolutely still. I feel like I am the only person in this perfect moment of solitude and tranquility. My mind is as reposed as the water. Suddenly, there is a soft splash. Even as I hear the sound I realize it is the noise of a frog jumping in and breaking the surface of the water. It's gently startling. Even more startling is the stillness that closes in a moment later.

I'm no poet, but something like that.

I'm not sure if that really would work. The beauty behind a haiku, at least in my non-learned opinion is that its an extremely information dense format and very short. So when you read a single line, its short enough that you comprehend the entire "idea" or "image" all at once. First line, you see the place, then you go to the second line, and you "see" the action, and the third line, you "hear" the sound and only the sound. So you're left with three sudden "bursts" or "flashbulbs" of a scene, all pretty much at the same time. But then its over, and its done. Also, there is no "I", like in your English version, so there is no question about whether or not its the author "seeing" this, or if its "you" seeing or "feeling" this. I guess the big difference is that with the Japanese version the "reader" fills in the missing "gaps" with their own imagination, while the English version is... different.

So Halcyon is right, whats "not" there is as important as what is there... if that makes any sense.

[Halcyon]

Here's Kerouac's take. He called these "American haiku" and I think it retains the spirit of haiku but not the letter of it, and creates the negative space you describe:

http://youtu.be/uPWHEMOF_mk
Yup. I totally dig that. I agree that you shouldn't necessarily have to adhere to the syllable rule in English. Those ones in the video do work as haiku for me. But they work because they are spare.

[Anime12478]

I dont believe in the new age/mystical/cult notion of ki that has wrecked martial arts like Aikido and Karate so this is the only definition of Ki that I would accept as relevant to me for Kendo.

I've heard other kendoka refer to ki but have never experienced it myself.
When I lose a match there's no mystery to it; the other kendoka was just plain faster, better trained, more experienced, stronger, smarter, more agile, or had better judgment etc.
Kendo is demanding enough as it is and does not need another esoteric notion added to it.
You may not need it now due to relative experience level, but you will get to the point where your problems are caused by more than the other person just being plain better. Just being mechanical is good enough in the beginning because, like you said, there are enough demanding things in Kendo to really pile too much stuff on at once. But then you'll start having to get psychological.

Whether you believe in "ki" as some sort of mystical force floating in the air to be called upon at will or you feel it's a bunch of hooey, the deeper aspects of Kendo can be explained to both crowds. For example, someone might talk about using your "ki" to throw off the other person's "ki" and then take advantage of that. However, it can also be explained in terms of sports psychology such as making yourself look bigger, more professional, more energetic and encroaching in on that personal space to throw off the opponent's thought processes. There are a lot of mystical things that have been thought up of throughout history that was used to explain things that couldn't be explained due to the lack of technology or knowledge to be able to study them. Why do you think that some cultures have gods that can control things at whim, or people believe that there's something in the air that gives life to everyone? Now we know why rain falls and how the chemical composition of the air is good enough for our bodies to process it.

To put it in Kendo terms, some of us might have heard that we are using our ki to dominate the other person's ki to create an opening. Through screaming and good posture, you build yourself up while the other person is constantly knocked down (I'll admit that it's not my best example, but I hope I'm getting my point across there). However, that can also be explained by saying that you're giving them that element of surprise through raising your voice, adding confusion through moving your tip around to see what they are doing and making them uncomfortable by getting your shinai tip or body somewhere into their personal space to start that "fight or flight" thing that happens when we are in crisis.

[Charlie]

I'm not sure if that really would work. The beauty behind a haiku, at least in my non-learned opinion is that its an extremely information dense format and very short. So when you read a single line, its short enough that you comprehend the entire "idea" or "image" all at once. First line, you see the place, then you go to the second line, and you "see" the action, and the third line, you "hear" the sound and only the sound. So you're left with three sudden "bursts" or "flashbulbs" of a scene, all pretty much at the same time. But then its over, and its done. Also, there is no "I", like in your English version, so there is no question about whether or not its the author "seeing" this, or if its "you" seeing or "feeling" this. I guess the big difference is that with the Japanese version the "reader" fills in the missing "gaps" with their own imagination, while the English version is... different.

So Halcyon is right, whats "not" there is as important as what is there... if that makes any sense.

So basically haiku cannot be adequately translated. Certainly the reader of English expects his author to leave him some negative space for him to fill in but he also expects the author to engage him with a lot of different choices of words. I want you to tell me whether the character is "happy" or "elated," "joyful," "tickled," "amused," etc. The Japanese, I think, expect the reader to do more work with the language, to supply more imagination and interpretation. Thus, you tell me he is "happy" but it is up to me to interpret what kind of happiness the character is experiencing based on the clues and context provided.

A diversion, but all of this contributes to our understanding of ki because whatever literature we have on this will experience these same translation problems. I love what Chris is saying above.

BTW my favorite haiku, one that translates very well to English, is by a cat named Issa:

See that peasant! She plants towards her crying child.

[enkorat]

Yes, I do think this comes back to our discussion about Ki, because the "source" material often when translated into English ends up becoming imprecise, because in this case its not really a "translation" but a "conversion" or to use sort of a technological term a "transcoding". English and most Western languages demands more absolute precision just to prevent things from becoming impenetrably incomprehensible.

And then, you don't know "really" if the "extra" stuff that was added by the translator is there to adequately convey the meaning of the original source material or instead skewing the information they present to serve their own agenda, trying to fit a relatively foreign idea into their world-view or spiritual world view.

To come back to your personal poem translation, one could argue that your translation had a lot of your own perspective in it, and that in trying to explain things more clearly, you fundamentally changed the information being conveyed....

And of course, you also run into some kendo senseis who very much believe that verbal explanation is a source of misunderstanding and confusion, and that true understanding comes from years of personal experience. That sort of runs counter to the Western expectation of instruction.

[DigitalDowntown]

I don't think ki is mystical or vague, but I used to. Once you've really felt it, and you can manipulate it a little, there will be no doubt in your mind to what you are feeling.

I've been a regular practitioner of zazen meditation for most of the last 14 years, but until about 3 or 4 years ago, I had the same kinds of questions and vague understanding about ki that most others are discussing in this thread. Then my wife got 'unlocked' in level 1 reiki. Over time as she practiced, I could really feel the energy that flowed through particular places of the body (palms, feet, forehead, naval, etc.). I can describe it as a kind of warm humming energy, like body heat being beamed from one person to another. This feeling has also been confirmed by most of our friends who she's done reiki on, including my best friend since junior high who has degree in quantum physics and doesn't believe in anything he can't confirm himself.

My wife has also been a fan of acupuncture for some time, and she eventually talked me into trying it. Several days after having that first acupuncture session (which was a general full body session), I noticed my hands becoming very hot and sweaty while sitting in zazen meditation. I realized it was that same ki energy I could feel whenever my wife practiced her reiki on me. It's as though some kind of ki blockage in me had been cleared. At first, it would only 'turn on' for me after sitting in meditation for some time, and even then it wouldn't always 'work.' After a few weeks however, I learned that I could 'turn it on,' on call, anytime I wanted. While at work, while in meditation, while applying seme during kendo, etc. :shocked:

The new-agers definitely know something about it, because various kinds of rocks and crystals certainly have their own distinctive 'sound' to their energy. Like some feel 'higher pitched' or 'louder' or 'warmer' than others. I can also feel it through plants, or running through my back and head if I'm leaning against a tree. If I'm close enough to someone, I can feel a shift in their ki when they are experiencing strong emotions. It's like their 'pitch' has changed.

I can only think to describe sensing ki as having learned to recognize it, or to finally notice something that's always been there. Perhaps a sixth sense that science hasn't been able to confirm yet. Think of how we have that instinctive feeling when someone is looking at us from behind, even though none of our commonly known 5 senses could have possible picked that up.
As my sensei says about good, quality kata, or about two kenshi who have really strong seme, "The air changes; you can just feel it."

I'm confident that all of us can subconsciously feel ki energy, and have even made gut decisions because of it (such as sensing danger from someone with malicious intent), but most haven't learned to recognize it with their conscious mind.

Anyway, sorry for the long post. I understand that what I'm describing above may be a bit of a reach for many people, and I may sound like a cookoo to some of you, but once you've literally felt it, there is no denying the presence of ki.
So yes, I'm a believer. :wink:

[Charlie]

DD, THANK YOU for sharing. So, if you don't mind my asking, how do you feel it's impacted your kendo?

[DigitalDowntown]

DD, THANK YOU for sharing. So, if you don't mind my asking, how do you feel it's impacted your kendo?

It has added much more depth to my seme and zanshin, and in a way, made it 'easier' to hold center. It also provides a great feeling and metsuke during kata, especially with someone else who projects a strong ki (although they might not be consciously aware that they are doing so).

It's also given me another sense to feel how my aite wants to engage. Experienced kendoka can already get a good read between each other regarding how aggressive or defensive someone is being, but being somewhat more acutely sensitive to the ki energy maybe gives me one more sense (or just an increased awareness) I can use to pick up on my aite's kendo. Sometimes, I can feel a collapse of will from someone, as though their 'tone' has changed, when they are too tired to continue, or doubt they can break my kamae (ie. someone who has let the four sicknesses creep in). It can also lead to a big escalation of everything in a match when I'm with someone else who asserts strong, aggressive ki. They (probably subconsciously) feel my seme come on strong and then fearlessly ante-up their own seme. Their ki, along with everything else, becomes loud and strong. Think of anytime you've had a really good match; in the dojo, in shiai, whatever. The kind of match where, win or lose, you really enjoyed letting it go; you both fought ferociously hard, but controlled. There may or may not have been a lot of physical exchange, but constant, relentless, pressure, and seme.

Then there are the kodansha sensei. Oh man, some of them can exert a seme that feels so tough, I find myself fighting those same four sicknesses. "Sensei isn't' really trying to kill me, right!?" Murakami-sensei of SCKF (7-dan) once pointed out that I collapsed my chest and appeared to be cowering in fear when doing keiko with him (I'm over 6' tall and would otherwise tower over him) but yet I could maintain an aggressive posture and attitude with the biggest and most rambunctious, hardest hitting 3-dans. (He then proceeded to drill me with kihon-keiko and kakari-keiko.)

As usual, it's very difficult to get a read from, or seme onto beginners. Their minds seem too wrapped up with thinking through the motions. They aren't 'fighting from their gut' yet.