zanshin equal readiness?

[jjcruiser]

I'm starting a new thread because I don't want to hijack Marsten-sensei's one on zanshin for oji waza but this issue is very interesting to me.

I had essentially asked whether zanshin is not a constant during a match, rather than a heightened sense of readiness following a strike. Gendzwill sensei replied:


For purposes of this discussion, and refereeing in general, when we talk zanshin we mean what happens after the shinai hits the target.

So now to follow up on this -- for purposes not of that discussion and refereeing, isn't zanshin supposed to be ever-present? I'd thought that of the opportunities to attack (e.g., right before an attack, right after one, during a lapse in concentration, etc.), the common thread was that for a moment zanshin reduced. But now I am wondering if I'm thinking of zanshin too broadly and it does not necessarily equal "readiness."

Any thoughts on this?

[pgsmith]

Thoughts from the outside ...
While zanshin is supposed to be ever-present, there are particular moments when it is more easily noticeable and thus looked for. In the iai world, zanshin is looked for and easily noticeable at chiburi. In the kendo world, this same moment occurs after the shinai has hit the target. This is the moment in time when the action that you've been working toward has occured, and it is easy to let your guard down. It is also a moment in time when no other action is occuring, thus it is easier to discern just how alert and ready the performer is. This is why people usually refer to zanshin occuring at chiburi in iai, and after the strike in kendo, although it should always be present.

Just my thoughts on it as a non-kendoka. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

If you look at the other thread, Marsten-sensei has provided a very helpful breakdown of the components of the point.

[MikeW]

For those that don't have a copy here is a direct quote from the ZNKR dictionary of kendo:

"zan-shin- The body posture and state of mind in which even after striking, one is alert and ready to respond instantly to any counterattack by the opponent. Generally speaking, after striking one should put the proper distance between one's self and the opponent and face him/her in the chudan posture in order to be ready for a possible counterattack. If one cannot move the proper distance from the opponent, one should put the tip of one's shinai in the center or around the throat of the opponent to guard against a counterattack. According to the Regulations an Subsidiary Rules of Kendo Shiai and Shinpan, zan-shin is one of the conditions for yuko-datotsu. Therefore, if one does not show good body posture and state of mind with respect to the opponent after striking, a yuko-datotsu may be canceled. Zan-shin is the state in which, after striking with full power and without hesitation, one faces the opponent with full spirit and with the ability to respond naturally."

[jmarsten]

For those that don't have a copy here is a direct quote from the ZNKR dictionary of kendo:

"zan-shin- The body posture and state of mind in which even after striking, one is alert and ready to respond instantly to any counterattack by the opponent. Generally speaking, after striking one should put the proper distance between one's self and the opponent and face him/her in the chudan posture in order to be ready for a possible counterattack. If one cannot move the proper distance from the opponent, one should put the tip of one's shinai in the center or around the throat of the opponent to guard against a counterattack. According to the Regulations an Subsidiary Rules of Kendo Shiai and Shinpan, zan-shin is one of the conditions for yuko-datotsu. Therefore, if one does not show good body posture and state of mind with respect to the opponent after striking, a yuko-datotsu may be canceled. Zan-shin is the state in which, after striking with full power and without hesitation, one faces the opponent with full spirit and with the ability to respond naturally."
Now add the full quote of the definition of seme and compare the two.

[MikeW]

As suggested by Marsten sensei here is the ZNKR dictionary definition of seme(ru):

"To take the initiative to close the distance with the opponent with full spirit. This puts the opponent off balance mentally and physically and prevents him/her from moving freely. Examples include ki-ryoku-ni-yoru-seme (attack with the spirit), ken-sen-ni-yoru-seme (attack with the tip of the sword), and datotsu-ni-yoru-seme (attack with strikes). This enables one to maintain a constant advantage over the opponent. In kendo, it is important to intentionally attack and strike, not to just strike by chance. The back and forth action of offense and defense involved in seme (attacks) and seme-kaesu (counterattacks) not only improve the skill of both players but also develops their minds and bodies. All of this leads to the mutual self-creation of both people and to the building of human character. (here it is suggested to look at san-sappo-jujitsu-shita-kiei).

Now comparing the two is more difficult ;) In the some ways sense one might think that seme is the beginning and zanshin is the ending but for me they are interlinked and inseparable. Simplistically, if one has zanshin then seme follows because if your opponent understands that you are ready for an attack and are aware of his/her intent then that transmits as pressure on them and gives them confusion as to what their best move is. If one has zanshin you will pick up on this confusion and seme increases to make an opening to take advantage of. So I guess my feeling is that zanshin is the awareness and seme is the application of that awareness, both linked to full spirit, and it is difficult or impossible to have one without the other and that the opponents awareness of your zanshin is in itself a form of seme (in the sense of ki-ryoku-ni-yoru-seme). But my level of understanding is quite small compared to Marsten sensei and of course many others on the board and I am looking forward to hearing what Marsten sensei and others have to say. Its getting late and perhaps I am just rambling and when I re-read this in the morning it will not make any sense ;)

[sid]

I`d look at it as;

攻撃（Kougeki）is attacking, where Kou is the initiative and geki is assault and using the Kou we have 攻め(seme) which is like initiating an attack.
whereas
残心(zanshin),I would like to think as 残りの（nokori-no）(residual,remainder) 心（kokoro）the (mind,feeling,heart)=
the mind that remains ...(the mind that remains after an attack)or mind the opponent after you have attacked maybe.

& therefore I guess that's why 攻め ＞ 打つ ＞ 残心 (seme-utsu-zanshin) makes a perfect circle.

[sid]

In reply to jj I`d think ,

`zanshin equals readiness after attacking`

[Bokushingu]

After reading both definition, i interpreted it as you can't have "Seme" without "Zanshin."

[Missingno.]

What I still have trouble wrapping my head around is how running straight through with arms extended at your chest or face level (not in chudan or jodan by any standard) equals readiness or awareness. During the run-through portion directly after a men cut, not only is pretty much ever target in kendo open, but you also have neither the distance or the kamae to make a counterattack, and you will have your back to your opponent for at least a short time. I just don't fully understand how doing this type of movement is supposed to represent our increased readiness and awareness for the next attack.

[tango]

What I still have trouble wrapping my head around is how running straight through with arms extended at your chest or face level (not in chudan or jodan by any standard) equals readiness or awareness. During the run-through portion directly after a men cut, not only is pretty much ever target in kendo open, but you also have neither the distance or the kamae to make a counterattack and you will have your back to your opponent for at least a short time. I just don't fully understand how doing this type of movement is supposed to represent our increased readiness and awareness for the next attack.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

Some of what you're saying is a little non-sensical (no offense), although I understand what you're trying to say.

The easiest way I've tried to articulate to others what *my* personal take on this is:

The transition from zanshin at the end of one attack to seme at the beginning of the next attack is so fine as to be ostensibly non-existent. I don't pretend to be anywhere close to some oracle of kendo knowledge, but lesser-experienced players look at a match (jigeiko, shiai, whatever) and they see several "attacks" between the opponents, that, as far as they know, have well-defined beginnings and ends. This is to say that there are many "exchanges" between the opponents. They start at sonkyo, they move in (seme), they attack, run through, turn (zanshin), end. Then they begin again by moving in, etc. Rinse and repeat however many times. For illustrative purposes, let's say that this happens 10 times. There were 10 "attacks" made from one or both players in total.

As far as my current level of understanding of kendo goes (which, again, is really not that great), my perception is that an entire match does not consist of many attacks, but rather, one big, long, single attack.
It begins and ends with sonkyo (or I'd agree with those who say it begins and ends when you first step into (and out of) the court and bow).

But I digress.

So.. when does zanshin end and seme [for the 'next attack' begin]?

That's the way I think you should consider the question.

In my own mind, as soon as I make a very good, solid ippon, I don't think "zanshin"... but rather, I think SEME. This is just how I mentally picture things (when I'm really on my game, and frankly, that hasn't been happening lately, but nevermind).

If -- by chance -- you think in very concrete terms such as, "zanshin occurs [i]when I turn around after an attack and (re)face the opponent", then when does your seme for the next exchange start?
... 3 seconds? 1 second? Do you think in terms like, you "do zanshin" and then there's this 'dead period' where you walk x-feet forward, coming back to kamae to 're-engage' the opponent and THEN you "start seme"??

That's how I believe less-experienced players view things.

Anyway... I think I've gotten off-track (having just answered a call at the office) and lost my train of thought...

[JByrd]

Attack (seme) is a deliberate act, born of intention. Responding flexibly to a changing situation requires an open mind devoid of any specific intention.

[jmarsten]

If you look at figure skating and diving you can see how even though the acrobatic portion is performed unless the jump or dive is completed properly there is a low score. Finish of the attack in kendo has some of the same properties. Here is how it is viewed for the hachidan test in a paper written by the AJKF.

CREATION OF A STRIKE FROM PRESSURE (SEME)
Seme (pressure) versus defense
Center-axis - seme w/waist, (koshi, tanren, visceral) seme with Ki =kizeme
Linear - seme w/ feet, seme with tsuki (ashi seme)
Seme -> Strike = Linear Strike-> Seme = Curvilinear

Push (Seme ai) - Utterance, enhancing Ki. attack with mind, push and hit
Strike - Uniting with mind, sword and body (ki-ken-tai )
Zanshin - Posture of mind and body
Seme ( pressure) <-> Defense
Curvelinear - seme with body, seme with strike ( uchi seme)

So you should be having a conversation with the shinai not an argument ( less experienced kenshi tend to have arguments )

[MikeW]

As I mentioned above I would say that if you have zanshin you do have at least some ki-ryoku-ni-yoru-seme. Zanshin is a noticeable thing and so your opponent can understand when you have it and therefore it is a pressure of spirit. At least this is the way I view it. I view zanshin as a deliberate thing, not in the sense necessarily of having to concentrate on it but more that it becomes part of your nature thorough work and experience. In response to the statement "Responding flexibly to a changing situation requires an open mind devoid of any specific intention." I would only say that the response in terms of details may be open minded and devoid of specific intention but the overall intention is still to attack so one could argue that there is still deliberate intent.

[Bokushingu]

the part that confuses me is the one type of seme: seme by striking. Do they mean nidan waza? where the first hit is the seme?

[DCPan]

the part that confuses me is the one type of seme: seme by striking. Do they mean nidan waza? where the first hit is the seme?

I would assume it is making the opponent move by striking, such as "men-semete-kote".

[turboyoshi]

What I still have trouble wrapping my head around is how running straight through with arms extended at your chest or face level (not in chudan or jodan by any standard) equals readiness or awareness.

I suspect that sensei teach this as zanshin because, like pgsmith mentioned, it's the point where zanshin is most obviously noticed. It becomes the simplest teaching method to start students off with, and by the time they develop actual zanshin, it becomes easier to fill in the rest of the picture.

[jmarsten]

the part that confuses me is the one type of seme: seme by striking. Do they mean nidan waza? where the first hit is the seme? creating the opening/chance through striking multiple hits as in ni-dan, san-dan waza. It is sometime less formal than kote-men but can be random hits strung together and then a timing break that opens the opponent providing the opportunity to strike and score. The first strikes are not necessarily meant to connect but rather create a discord. Good example is Iwahori sensei scoring in the AJKC in 1986. If I remember correctly the sequence was men-kote-men.

[DigitalDowntown]

creating the opening/chance through striking multiple hits as in ni-dan, san-dan waza. It is sometime less formal than kote-men but can be random hits strung together and then a timing break that opens the opponent providing the opportunity to strike and score.

Then creating an opening in an opponent through multiple hits with strong spirit is to seme by striking?

[JByrd]

I suspect that sensei teach this as zanshin because, like pgsmith mentioned, it's the point where zanshin is most obviously noticed. It becomes the simplest teaching method to start students off with, and by the time they develop actual zanshin, it becomes easier to fill in the rest of the picture.

That sounds about right to me. As beginners we are taught to start with a good kamae at far distance, then "seme" by stepping in to hitting distance. We are taught to follow through with "zanshin" by holding our striking posture and using fast footwork to get clear before we turn and assume kamae. Like turbo, I see those physical acts as temporary place holders, something superficially useful that we can do until we figure out what is really supposed to be happening there. We mimic the outward manifestation, then fill in the substance over time.

[jmarsten]

Then creating an opening in an opponent through multiple hits with strong spirit is to seme by striking?
Yes. Uchi seme as in men uchi, kote uchi etc., using a multi-hit attack and getting the opponent in a blocking defense or just banging in with kote-men.

[jmarsten]

That sounds about right to me. As beginners we are taught to start with a good kamae at far distance, then "seme" by stepping in to hitting distance. We are taught to follow through with "zanshin" by holding our striking posture and using fast footwork to get clear before we turn and assume kamae. Like turbo, I see those physical acts as temporary place holders, something superficially useful that we can do until we figure out what is really supposed to be happening there. We mimic the outward manifestation, then fill in the substance over time.
Otherwise they just hit and stop or try to circle around. Unfortunately it takes them awhile to realize you need to stay in mental contact (zanshin) with the opponent even as you go through and past them.

[Bokushingu]

Awwww Thank you very much, Marsten sensei, Pan, & everyone else for explaining that...it was all great insight. I have been experimenting with hitting a Katate-men, going through and turning around and coming right back with a kote-men.