Shinai = Sword?

[sarge127]

Im kinda lost with this, but The way we have to treat the shinai.... Does it have to be like a sword? like Say if it fell on the ground should i scold myself for that? Like traeat it like a baby... I mean its my first time so i wouldn't know, I know a few kendoka who just bring it outta the Bag and just swing away hoping it doesn't break or get splinters.
Well from experienced users... what is your Opinion?

Thanks, Sarge

[Halcyon]

The way we have to treat the shinai.... Does it have to be like a sword?
The short answer is, yes.

[sarge127]

So even if its a practice shinai?

[Halcyon]

So even if its a practice shinai?
It's not an issue of whether the shinai is of good quality or run-of-the-mill quality. You should generally try to handle the shinai as though it's a sword, within reason, of course. This includes not stepping over it, not using it as some kind of stretching device during warm-ups, not putting the shinai over your hakama while in seiza. You don't have to be a stickler about it. Just use a modicum of care.

[Anime12478]

When it comes to the esoteric explanations of handling a shinai, I tend to feel that mileage varies depending on who you're talking to. While the meanings do have some historical significance, it can be difficult to make a connection to back then and now, especially since the world is so much different than it was back in the day. So when I make that explanation, I tend to go more the route that the correct handling of a shinai looks more professional than the usual faux pas of leaning on the shinai or stepping over it.

[UnimportantHero]

...not using it as some kind of stretching device during warm-ups...

But...! But...! It is such a good stretching device!

Maybe I will cut down a broom handle to size and bring that with me to practice from now on.

[MikeW]

The idea is to respect your equipment, respect your sensei, respect your opponents and respect yourself.

[sarge127]

But...! But...! It is such a good stretching device!

I know we use it to as a streatching device... It kinda bothers me though, Be loyal to your sword...

[Hrodgar]

..//..
Maybe I will cut down a broom handle to size and bring that with me to practice from now on.

OH! You mean like this troll? :-P

http://youtu.be/ZhSn14KaDcg

[jjcruiser]

The very first Kendo class I ever had started with my sensei bringing out an iaito and talking about the sword and cutting, etc., only switching to a shinai halfway through. The point was reasonably clear. I think there were some threads a year or two back about the treatment of the shinai though, and I was surprised to learn it's not universal not to leave the shinai point down (because you wouldn't do that with a sword). So I think there's a wide range of how literally people treat the "your shinai represents your sword" theme.

[dillon]

I often see senior kendo players bang the tip of their shinai on the floor between disengaging an opponent and getting back to kamae. In fact, the more senior they get the more it seems to happen. So much for treating it like a sword (or your opponent like a true enemy).

[stealth_monkey]

The very first Kendo class I ever had started with my sensei bringing out an iaito and talking about the sword and cutting, etc., only switching to a shinai halfway through. The point was reasonably clear. I think there were some threads a year or two back about the treatment of the shinai though, and I was surprised to learn it's not universal not to leave the shinai point down (because you wouldn't do that with a sword). So I think there's a wide range of how literally people treat the "your shinai represents your sword" theme.

Definitely. Around my parts it seems as you treat it as a sword to the exact instant it interferes with your training. At the end of the day, it's not a sword, it's a shinai. If it was a shinken, I wouldn't exactly be flopping it around on the floor like we do in reiho, I wouldn't be grabbing it in front of the tsuba while my arms are by my side without a saya, and I certainly wouldn't be vigorously rubbing my hands up and down it to check for splinters.

[Hisham]

I often see senior kendo players bang the tip of their shinai on the floor between disengaging an opponent and getting back to kamae. In fact, the more senior they get the more it seems to happen. So much for treating it like a sword (or your opponent like a true enemy).

Nobody's perfect.

[D'Artagnan]

To quote the AJKF Official Guide for Kendo Instruction -

'Although it is probably not appropriate to compare the two, it s not necessary to suppose that we are using the Shinai in place of the Nihon-to in Kendo, but it should be treated with the same respect, and in accordance with the same ideals.'

So that's the 'official' line I guess... Personally, I think the Shinai should be treated with a certain level of respect. For example, it shouldn't be stepped over, used for leaning, or worse 'forgotten' or 'lost' somewhere (being taken by the wrong person by mistake is different of course). However, I would say that I don't think of the Shinai AS a sword, I definately think of it as a Shinai...

[sarge127]

But what if my sensei, INSISTS i treat it like my life? like give it the same respect i give myself? or better yet to everyone?

[pgsmith]

But what if my sensei, INSISTS i treat it like my life? like give it the same respect i give myself? or better yet to everyone?
Then that's what you do. Your alternative in that situation is to quit, so you need to decide what is more important to you.

From my perspective, a shinai or bokken should be treated exactly like the shinken that it is meant to represent. However, it is for practical reasons not esoteric ones. Whatever you do regularly will ingrain itself in your mind, and this can lead to problems if you also practice iaido, or ever decide to practice iaido in the future. I remember being in a tameshigiri seminar a number of years ago, and one of the participants almost stabbed himself in the foot because he was used to putting the point of his bokken there while listening to instruction. He was so wrapped in what the instructor was saying, that he did it without thinking. The only reason he didn't seriously injure himself was that the instructor saw it coming and yelled at him before he made contact.

[Neil Gendzwill]

But what if my sensei, INSISTS i treat it like my life? like give it the same respect i give myself? or better yet to everyone?Good grief, she's not going to do that. She'll make sure you don't lean on it, kick it, drop it, all the normal stuff.

[jjcruiser]

But what if my sensei, INSISTS i treat it like my life? like give it the same respect i give myself? or better yet to everyone?

Whoa there, fella. This isn't "Shogun" and no one's going to tell you to commit seppuku if you bang into their shinai while getting dressed for class.

Gendzwill-sensei appears to be acquainted with your sensei and this might be a very good time for a reminder he gives people from time to time:

Write everything on here as though your sensei is standing over your shoulder watching you type--because in effect they might be. You do not want to come across as a psycho before you even get a chance to really start learning kendo and enjoying the camaraderie of the dojo. You've gotten some excellent points--my advice is to think of it like a sword but use common sense.

Good luck.

[sarge127]

Thanks for the clean and precise replies!
I was just over thinking it... Sensei says don't over think things, and well i just did... I should scold myself for that and Neil... "good grief"
Lol thanks... Your all right.

[Dave Gallagher]

Your shinai is your weapon. It is your sword. It should always be treated as if it's a live blade. To do less is to be a mere dilettante who has no understanding of Kendo as a true budo.

[Kendoka]

I often see senior kendo players bang the tip of their shinai on the floor between disengaging an opponent and getting back to kamae. In fact, the more senior they get the more it seems to happen. So much for treating it like a sword (or your opponent like a true enemy).
A bad habit.

[Kendoka]

Your shinai is your weapon. It is your sword. It should always be treated as if it's a live blade. To do less is to be a mere dilettante who has no understanding of Kendo as a true budo.
Agree!

Kendo is - 'The way of the sword'. The shinai is the weapon that we use in kendo, so should be regarded as a sword, when practicing kendo.

[b8amack]

If shinai were swords, we'd see a whole lot less sutemi. Less attacking in general, I think.

[sarge127]

If shinai were swords, we'd see a whole lot less sutemi. Less attacking in general, I think.
Well there are people like that who don't attack often, while the opponent flips out and attacks relentlessly... Giving the less-attacker advantages, and openings.
Sorry just my view if i didn't attack much...

[turboyoshi]

Well there are people like that who don't attack often, while the opponent flips out and attacks relentlessly... Giving the less-attacker advantages, and openings.

You could view it that way, or consider the fact that attacking often gives the attacker more opportunities to win.
In my experience, at the mudansha levels and even maybe at the low dan levels, this strategy tends to be more effective.

[LowFatMat]

I treat my shinai like I treat my woman
I handle it firmly but with care, I pay attention to wear and tear and oil and shave it when necessary, I try to take it out twice a week, and when I'm done I check it for splinters and put it in a cupboard.

[sarge127]

I treat my shinai like I treat my woman.
...... What? *snickers*
Ohh man, nice... Last nights practice was fun! we had a new beginner come in! and my shinai is wearing off... How do i maintain it when i don't have things to take care of it with?

[jjcruiser]

Last nights practice was fun! we had a new beginner come in! and my shinai is wearing off... How do i maintain it when i don't have things to take care of it with?

Huh? Wearing off?

There's roughly eleven-hundred different threads about maintaining your shinai. Try a search here for "maintenance" or a google search for "kendo shinai maintenance."

Here's one link (http://www.kingstonkendo.org/Shinai_Maintenance.pdf) to get you started.

[Scully]

...... What? *snickers*
Ohh man, nice... Last nights practice was fun! we had a new beginner come in! and my shinai is wearing off... How do i maintain it when i don't have things to take care of it with?

Define wearing off,
Is your tsuka loose or slappy?
Are your slats splintered or shaving parts off?
Be a bit more specific if you want us to help,

But like our man said before,
There is a great abundance of threads, websites and books that can help you,
One thing you should learn greatly through budo is initiative,
So rather than coming straight here for your questions, do a search first, if nothing comes up, talk to your sensei, if he/she can't help you, we'll all happily ablidge :)

As for the original question,
Ask your Sensei, you can't go wrong, if you please your Sensei, you'll have a happy kendo life,
Personally, I treat mine the same way I treat my taichi and shinken.
I have an enourmous respect for both my blades and my wooden weapons,
You'll find through out Japan that is rather common (atleast where I trained)
Much the same as I was always told to care for my bogu as I would for real yoroi armor (though unfortunatly I don't have any of that)

Just remember things like your tsuru is the blunt part of the sword, so you do not want to damage it,
Leaning on your edge would damage it etc, small details,
as was said before, if you repeat a habit (good or bad) it will stick.
This whole metaphore works better if you use (like me) a owari (or curved) shinai.

(Disclaimer: If you want one, ask your sensei first, I had to really work hard for 2 years before sensei gave me an approval for me to use it)

http://www.e-bogu.com/Madake_OWARI_Sword_Shape_Shinai_p/hay-ken-shi-owari-37.htm

It helps alot when you see it like this, you can place sword parts onto the shinai and have a much better understanding.
Its also great for kendo I find, (personal oppinion, some kendoka hate it)
It makes you get in nice and close and strike as if you had a live blade and quickens your reaction, it may make it hard, but I do what I can to challenge myself.

Thinks of it like this an you'll do fine,

Happy training.

[jjcruiser]

One thing you should learn greatly through budo is initiative,
So rather than coming straight here for your questions, do a search first, if nothing comes up, talk to your sensei, if he/she can't help you, we'll all happily ablidge :)


To the OP:

I guess I should qualify: take what I said with a grain of salt. Some advice and commentary you might run across is untraditional if not downright bizarre.

[tenken_returns]

lol I haven't been on this forum for a while but it hasn't changed at all.. >.< I've seen people treat their shinai like it was a baseball bat or broom stick whatever. But at the end all those people just gets their &$$ handed to them by the sensei and they learn the hard way.

[sarge127]

thanks guys! on the last practice hardly anyone showed up, but im glad i showed up to give my farewells to them before i left for home the next week...
I can really see now that i reflect on my progress, i really enjoy kendo! ups, downs no matter. Kendo changed me as a person.