Quality of Sehyun bogu?

[Andoru]

I've gone through the forums about Sehyun. So far I haven't noticed any bad comments about Sehyun's bogus, though only 2 people (JSchmidt and Atama) have recommended its hand-stitched bogus. I am also aware that Sehyun is also one of the top Korean bogu maker.

However, I wonder why their hand-stitched bogus are so cheap compared to Japanese made ones. Especially this (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu110.htm): 1 bu hand-stitch bogu for only US$1,280?! I've read comments about how economic factors such as lower overheads etc mean cheaper bogus in Korea, but that comment hasn't been corroborated (yet).

Why is it so cheap? Am I missing something?

If you own a Sehyun bogu, or seen/felt/wore one, I invite you to post your reviews/comments about its quality. Constructive posts only please.

Domo arigato gozaimashita!

[Bleda]

well it is very true that korean made bogu are priced lower because of significantly lower overhead costs when compared to japan (they can pay their employees less, lower taxes etc).

[Andoru]

Thank you Bleda.

Taken from Sehyun's website:

"Working in partnership with a sister company in Japan, we enjoy a good reputation at home and aboard.We are able to provide such good prices owing to our factory in China, which we established a decade ago."

[Andoru]

Bleda - by the way, are you generalising or do you know that as a fact?

[lucian]

Sehyun bougu is great, I warn you now I could go on for a while

So short story /long story



Short story:

They are the muts nuts! Seriously I am as happy as sex-staved dog that just licked a viagra & found a soft pillow, just trust me on that one its one happy dog

----------------------



Long story:

I had a custom suit made in around 3 weeks and shipped to my house in 3days

They knew I needed a new suit fast and bent over backwards to help me, while on their summer holiday

There was not stitch out of place and is just as good as my old run of the mil Japanese suit which probably came from Korea or China anyway

The Kote actually fit my hands like a second skin :)



Dealing with Sehyun is easy their English is not very good, it seemed they were writing straight from a dictionary

But they handled my order perfectly, and fast unlike Eurobogu & Ninecircles, E-bogu (who screw up in English & German)

Personally I only deal with Sehyun and Japanese companies now



It would make sense that they are cheaper because of country economics but it’s certainly not because of quality of the goods

When they shipped my bougu to me, they listed its value as $100

They were either very honest about the cost of materials or were doing me a big favour on tax

That just made me smile more when the posty only wanted 30 quid off me, I was dreading it turning up and having to pay a couple of hundred



As they say in their web site they work closely with a sister company in Japan, so I would not be surprised to find some Sehyun bougu with a made in Japan sticker on it

They probably make a nice profit from importing to Japan since the price of 3mm bougu doubles,



I know it seems dodgy I mean come on who ever heard of buying something cheap for kendo that is good quality? But Sehyun actually do it



My kit is 3mm and was for a fast replacement, in all honesty I thought it was going to be a pile of crap I was more than pleasantly surprised with the quality but it almost too good to get my arse slapped across the dojo in



For the price of their bougu you can afford new set every year… (hand stitched one that is :> ) and all other kit for iai etc and still save money to add a sexy Dou from these guy’s http://www.kk-sanbu.com (http://www.kk-sanbu.com/)



I think they are worth it, after all the only real items worth buying for Japanese craftsmanship are shinken

[Andoru]

Thanks for your comments. Have you used Japanese bogu before? If you have, can you compare them and let us know what you think?

[Bleda]

Well i don't know specifically for sehyun but its a pretty well known business fact about korean companies. Also it seems you found your answer with seyhun being in china thats a significantly cheaper place to manufacture goods when compared to Japan.

[JSchmidt]

Ah, I didnt recommend it's handstitched bogus, I recommended the machinestitched :).
Bang for bucks, it's extremly hard to beat.
Kote got pretty worn out after 3 years, so they were replaced with Japanese handstitched (1.2), which are far superior quality.
Men,do, tare are still going strong, although I'll probably replace the men with a Japanese handstitched again sometimes this year.

Jakob

[Andoru]

Jakob: I stand corrected. Thanks for your comments :)

[AlexM]

Here's a review of mine (which is a machine stiched):

Bought in mid-march 2003 from Sehyun Kumdo, model #250 (replaced the standard men with a machine-stiched titanium one in set no.210), 2.5/3.0 mm. I practice about 2-3 times a week.

Men: Fits perfectly, no complaints. Fits really well actually for a machine-stiched set. I've had to replace the men-himo though.
Kote: Fit perfectly, nice stif leather. Don't know how long the deer leather will last... A small hole has appeared on the thumb of the left kote... that's it so far.
Tare: Seems okay, how does one judge tare??? (i.e. I didn't care too much about the tare)
Dou: My dou (fake bamboo) actually has colour to it: A very dark blue that is so dark as to be almost black (D-27 if you're curious.. although they list it as "green" uzzled: ). If you don't look at it directly it looks black. Anyway, I have noticed that the paint is chipping off a bit in some places (strangely enough around the stomach area and not the typical "hit spot"). No gigantic paint chips falling off, just small spots. This just reveals a black base under the paint.
My dou did crack recently though. When I say crack I mean a great, big chunk of a piece fell off. I emailed Sehyun and they said to send the mune (the leather part above the plastron) and they'd replace it no charge and no questions asked. I suspect there was a fault in the manufacturing process at one point with my dou... hopefully the replacement should last.

Anyway, Sehyun has a good selection, good service and good prices. Only real problem is that you have to pay by bank transfer... which can take ages.

Two friends of mine bought hand-stiched from Sehyun. They were satisfied but the men leather seemed to take forever to break in.

[Andoru]

Thanks Alex. :)

[lucian]

Sorry about the lateness of my reply,



Its not really a fair test, to compare this suit to my old Japanese machine stitched as they were 6 & 5mm very low end suits; in price the sehyun suit wins hands down

The quality of the suit is competitive with most 3mm suits I have seen if not better

As I said I only bought this suit as a cheap replacement, for my Mitsuboshi hand stitched set which died very young only 6 months old

So I bought this, as I could not really afford to buy another suit in such a short time space, I honestly did not expect it to be this good.

I have noticed the cotton is a higher yarn than most shops sell

My set has #8000 cotton where as my Japanese suits look like a lower yarn; Not that it makes much difference like

I have no idea on the type of mattress they used in the sehyun set when my kote die I will cut them open and find out for you

Price wise it is very hard to beat, unless you know a good sensei or bougu craftsman in Japan that can do you a deal



Kote: were tough but are just starting to break in now, My palms are cow leather quite thick, and the head is dear leather, they have no signs of tearing yet

All bougu wears out eventually, and kote are the most consumable part

My kote will probably only last a year, I am tempted to replace them with Mitsuboshi pair

But I think I will try sehyun hand stitched as they really surprised me with this set, but even buying two or three sets of 3mm Kote from them are worth the price



Men: fits nicely, still very stiff, no signs of paint flaking yet

Tare: is great, the only thing I judge tare on is appearance as they do very little to protect unless from slash at Do, then we just got to hope it glances off and not tsuki’ed home :|

But it looks sturdy enough to last a good few years



Do: is fake bamboo look also, I took the red one, it fades from a red down to crimson and maroon into black with pink sakura pattern

My do has some protective coating missing just a small patch (but that does not bother me, as I will repaint it when I find out what final coating is used.)

Bad news to hear about you losing a chunk of your do Alex, there are no sings of it happening on mine, but if it does I will let you know Andrew

Himo: cheap crap but what do you expect for bougu that price, all the leather are rolled and stitched and use good leather



Sehyun do give very good service, it is annoying having to go to the bank and fill out forms to start the transfer but I am dyslexic so my bank did it all for me :)

And sehyun were cool with what ever currency I wanted to send, I let them handle all the extra bank costs I only paid my own side

They kept me up to date with everything, no lies at all

They gave me the posting date, and I was doubtful but it turned up 2 days later

For price and quality I could not be happier

[Leon]

Greetings,

Just checked out the Sehyun site. I must say that some of their Bogu are pretty gorgeous. Excuse my monetary ignorance but does anyone roughly know how much “KRW950,000” is US currency? I started practicing Kendo about 4 months back and am thus in the market for my first Bogu. It seems that their No.200 2mm set would be ideal for me (I was shooting for 3mm, but if they’re cheaper why not go for 2mm), aesthetically speaking anyway.

Further, am I gathering correctly that the quality of their bogu is comparable with similar Japanese models?

Thanks,

Leon

[Hai_hai]

Greetings,

Just checked out the Sehyun site. I must say that some of their Bogu are pretty gorgeous. Excuse my monetary ignorance but does anyone roughly know how much “KRW950,000” is US currency? I started practicing Kendo about 4 months back and am thus in the market for my first Bogu. It seems that their No.200 2mm set would be ideal for me (I was shooting for 3mm, but if they’re cheaper why not go for 2mm), aesthetically speaking anyway.

Further, am I gathering correctly that the quality of their bogu is comparable with similar Japanese models?

Thanks,

Leon

Go to www.x-rates.com
The site has exchange rates.

Seyhun bogu from what I can tell sucks. Their kote leather is made of people.

[Leon]

How much, generally, would the shipping charges be?

Equipment of that size and weight being sent half way around the world......

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

Scares me just thinking about it.

[Neil Gendzwill]

My kote will probably only last a year, I am tempted to replace them with Mitsuboshi pair
I have a pair of S-22 kote from Koei that have lasted 5 years of twice-weekly practice. There's a small hole in one palm and the padding over the right knuckle could use a little restuffing, but other than that they're still in fine shape.

[DCPan]

However, I wonder why their hand-stitched bogus are so cheap compared to Japanese made ones. Especially this (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu110.htm): 1 bu hand-stitch bogu for only US$1,280?! I've read comments about how economic factors such as lower overheads etc mean cheaper bogus in Korea, but that comment hasn't been corroborated (yet).
[/b]


Bear in mind I have not seen the set in question.

It's really difficult to compare price over the internet, esp with websites that are not very descriptive.

The link you provided above only says the bogu is hand-stitched. Is it te-sashi? Is it hon-sashi? Is it naga-sashi? There's more than one way to make hand-stitching...obviously, the longer process cost more due to labor costs.

Is the needle used square, round, trangular?

What grade of cloth is used? 7000 weave? 8000 weave?

How many layers of padding is being sewn together?

How many of those layers are natural or synthetic material?

Even within the same company, there's many different cost levels for the "same" stitch width. Unfortunately, you can't really tell the difference until you cut it open to see the cross-section.

Like the different kote filling...yeah, it's tail hair, but which section? Stem is MUCH more expensive than stem due to it's springyness....

Even if your friend bought the same set, there's no guarantee that the quality is consistent from batch to batch :D

Good luck!

[slidercrank]

The link you provided above only says the bogu is hand-stitched. Is it te-sashi? Is it hon-sashi? Is it naga-sashi? There's more than one way to make hand-stitching...obviously, the longer process cost more due to labor costs.
Can you explain the differences between plain hand-stitching (tesashi 手刺 ) and other types of hand-stitching (honsashi 本刺 and nagasashi 長刺 )?

I see those terms used a lot but have not been able to find out the differences. Thanks.

[DCPan]

Can you explain the differences between plain hand-stitching (tesashi 手刺 ) and other types of hand-stitching (honsashi 本刺 and nagasashi 長刺 )?

I see those terms used a lot but have not been able to find out the differences. Thanks.

Hi all,

This is what I heard from the bogu-ya where I got my last set.

What is commonly termed Te-sashi is where the stitching crosses the futon diagonally. You can tell because when you look at the padding on both sides, you see a dot. The reason this is the cheapest is because there is much less distance to traverse when you stitch this way. The MAIN disadvantage of this is that when the material starts to move, be it from rubbing against another bogu in tai-atari, or whatever, the different layers will start to shift since they are held together with diagonal forces. The bogu-ya tells me that you can tell if this set isn’t going to work within about 3 to 6 months of hard practice. Some cheaper production line will do a “fake” hand-stitch, where the craftsman holds a needle shooter and zips across the futon by shooting the needle across in a hand-stitch pattern.

Hon-sashi refers to “true” hand-stitch. In this case, each stitch can take up to 1 minute 40 seconds to perform. The stitch is done perpendicular to the futon. At the back side, the stitch then goes perpendicularly across, then penetrates the futon again perpendicularly. This is better for structural integrity as when the material starts to break down, it would simply expand to fill the gap. So, in cross section, the stitching would look like staples. The back side almost look like machine stitch because of the line traveling across to achieve the stapling effect. Hon-sashi and hon-te-sashi is the same thing.

As for Naga-sashi, I am honestly not sure what it is. However, if forced to make an educated guess, I would say that they are guaranteeing the stitching is done with one long string, rather than several short strings attached together. As it takes longer to pull a long string across the material, you can see how this adds to the time it takes to do the stitching.

:D

P.S. If someone knows something contrary as to what naga-sashi is, I'd like to know too :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'd never heard hon-sashi before, the description you gave is my understanding of what nagazashi is. Plus as David mentioned, needle cross-section is also important. If they use a triangular needle, the stitching goes much faster because the edges of the triangle help cut into the material - but the side-effect is that you've weakened the material. Round needles leave the material stronger but are much more work.

[sminki]

However, I wonder why their hand-stitched bogus are so cheap compared to Japanese made ones. Especially this (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu110.htm): 1 bu hand-stitch bogu for only US$1,280?! I've read comments about how economic factors such as lower overheads etc mean cheaper bogus in Korea, but that comment hasn't been corroborated (yet).

Why is it so cheap? Am I missing something?


I do not own a set of Sehyun bogu, but let me just share what I've come to understand in general (not specific to Sehyun by any means) through having done some research and talking to a number of bogu shops.

A major point is that not only do labor costs matter but raw material costs play a factor as well. Most hand-made bogus which run about $1,000 or so have cut corners w/r/t raw materiasl, i.e. not using real cotton and deer hair to fill the bogu. For example, many cheaper machine-made bogu has cheap nylon fillings in the kera part of kote instead of deer hair. This offers less protection than deer hair, but of course is cheaper and such cost savings can be transferred onto the purchaser. Another example is that cheaper hand-made bogus have this cheap nylon filling in men as opposed to real cotton. You can usually tell the difference since this makes the men wings very stiff as opposed to cotton which not only offers more protection but also is softer. Still, the nylon fillings cost less and result in price savings for the purchaser. These raw material costs also cover things like the quality of leather used for the mune, the quality of the deer skin used for kote (costs and quality actually differ based on age and body area of the deer that the leather came from), etc... This usually means that the $1,000 hand-made bogus are not really hand-made in that they may not have used traditional materials like deer hair, cotton fillings, quality leather and traditional stitching to put it together.

[Andoru]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

According to this description (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu130.htm), the paddings are either 100% wool or 100% deear hair. #8,800 weave cotton. What other comments can you make just by looking at the descriptions?

[DCPan]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

According to this description (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu130.htm), the paddings are either 100% wool or 100% deear hair. #8,800 weave cotton. What other comments can you make just by looking at the descriptions?

Not much. My bogu has 15 layers of material in the futon. Since the layer materials vary, the description is still meaningless.

On the other hand, the photo does tell me a few things.

Despite that they are using it at a sample, the tsuki-dare on the men is crooked.

The shape of the kote hand area and the wrist just don't look very nice...it seems like the shape would promote a baseball grip unless you break it in real good.

Having embroidery patterns down to the komune of the doh is silly, if not tacky...IMHO.

The lines/profiles of the bogu just don't look to me...then again, those who know me do say that I'm very particular in what I look for.

FWIW....

[Karaken]

Not much. My bogu has 15 layers of material in the futon. Since the layer materials vary, the description is still meaningless.

On the other hand, the photo does tell me a few things.

Despite that they are using it at a sample, the tsuki-dare on the men is crooked.

The shape of the kote hand area and the wrist just don't look very nice...it seems like the shape would promote a baseball grip unless you break it in real good.

Having embroidery patterns down to the komune of the doh is silly, if not tacky...IMHO.

The lines/profiles of the bogu just don't look to me...then again, those who know me do say that I'm very particular in what I look for.

FWIW....

Sehyun bogu is supposed to be one of the best bogu made in Korea. I'd like to hear from someone who own one of them, let's say, over 5 years? Anyone out there?

Center

[Leon]

Sehyun bogu is supposed to be one of the best bogu made in Korea. I'd like to hear from someone who own one of them, let's say, over 5 years? Anyone out there?

Center

Yes...I'm quite curious too. I'm looking at spending around $700-800 for a 2mm/3mm machine stiched bogu. Even if this is considered low end (at least compared to those hand stiched titanium-men beauties), thats still alot of money for me to drop. After saving up for so long, it would be quite disappointing to not be happy with the quality.

I do not own a set of Sehyun bogu, but let me just share what I've come to understand in general (not specific to Sehyun by any means) through having done some research and talking to a number of bogu shops.

BTW, thanks Sminki. That was quite helpful. I will have to remember to inquire about those details when I decide on a manufacturer.

Leon

[AlexM]

Thanks everyone for your comments.

According to this description (http://www.sehyun-kumdo.com/e-bogu130.htm), the paddings are either 100% wool or 100% deear hair. #8,800 weave cotton. What other comments can you make just by looking at the descriptions?

It looks fine... except for that dou colour... yech. The tsuki dare looks fine (and is solid), the stitching looks fine, the kote look like every other pair of kote being advertised on Japanese sites (they are stiff though and take some breaking in).

Pan in particular is just nitpicking at this point. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to figure out all the minute and relatively unimportant details that go into bogu manufacturing (I mean what kind kind of dear hair are they using??? c'mon!). A Sehyun bogu will probably last you long enough to be worth the money. The minutiae of the manufacturing process just stop being all that important at one point. Do you really want to pay over 1000$ more because they use a different kind of needle and stuffed it with deer hair coming from the wrong part of the animal's tail?

The only downside is that some jerks will look down on you for having a non-Japanese bogu: you're free to tell them to go to hell and ask why they had to pay an absurd amount of money for something that was probably manufactured in a Chinese sweatshop.

Now, like I said before, my bogu is still young and in good shape. In five or ten years I may know better. But honestly... in five or ten years I'd need a new set anyway: whether the original had been bought from Japan or not.

[Andoru]

Thanks everyone for your very insightful comments. I appreciate each input. :)

[slidercrank]

DCPan:

Thanks for your information. I had read your comments about bogu construction (tesashi vs. honsashi) back on Iaido List. Am glad to have this forum and opportunity to ask you for clarifications.



Pan in particular is just nitpicking at this point. Don't drive yourself crazy trying to figure out all the minute and relatively unimportant details that go into bogu manufacturing (I mean what kind kind of dear hair are they using??? c'mon!). A Sehyun bogu will probably last you long enough to be worth the money. The minutiae of the manufacturing process just stop being all that important at one point. Do you really want to pay over 1000$ more because they use a different kind of needle and stuffed it with deer hair coming from the wrong part of the animal's tail?

The only downside is that some jerks will look down on you for having a non-Japanese bogu: you're free to tell them to go to hell and ask why they had to pay an absurd amount of money for something that was probably manufactured in a Chinese sweatshop.

Now, like I said before, my bogu is still young and in good shape. In five or ten years I may know better. But honestly... in five or ten years I'd need a new set anyway: whether the original had been bought from Japan or not.
To each his own. For most of us, these manufacturing details are just academic; we will not do kendo long and hard enough, and are not ranked high enough, for these details to matter in our bogu. Nevertheless, the information is useful. Bogu shopping is not like car shopping, where research information is plenty and in English. You know the differences between a made-in-Japan Civic and a made-in-somewhere-else GoKart, so you understand the price differential. You are not likely to say, "argh, why the fuss? A GoKart will move you from A to B just as well as a Civic. In a few years, I'll be ready to buy a new car anyway. Who cares if Civic uses superior quality parts and GoKart barely acceptable parts!" are you?

Considering that in the US, there are used cars cheaper than some of these bogu, I'd like to know as much as possible.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Now, like I said before, my bogu is still young and in good shape. In five or ten years I may know better. But honestly... in five or ten years I'd need a new set anyway: whether the original had been bought from Japan or not.
My original Japanese-made 5 mm set is now 18 years old and only the kote have been replaced (once, with the afore-mentioned S22). The tare is a little worn and there's a soft spot on the men-buton but it's still plenty usable. I only practice 2-3 times/week though.

I've replaced it recently with a 1.2 bu set because although functional, my old set is looking a little shabby. Plus I just wanted one. I'll let you know in another 15 years or so if it holds up the same.

Expecting to replace a set of bogu after 5 years says a lot about the quality people are getting these days.

[DCPan]

To each his own. For most of us, these manufacturing details are just academic; we will not do kendo long and hard enough, and are not ranked high enough, for these details to matter in our bogu. Nevertheless, the information is useful.

Thanks slidercrank.

It's about knowing what you are paying for. Just because I know the differences doesn't mean I "AM" willing to pay for it.

With that said, rather than paying for a questionably priced 1.0bu bogu, I'd rather pay for a 1.5 bu OR 3mm machine stitched bogu from a place that I trust. You can get some pretty good stuff for $1000 without worrying about what you are getting, if you know where to go.

I have "no" illusions about "Japanese-made" bogu. My current set from Musashi-Go is made from parts that are "Made in China". I also paid 1/3 retail for it because I know where is from what.

Talking about retailers is in itself a silly endeavor, because upstream, there are only a few true OEMs anyway. But hey, if you don't know what you are paying for, don't buy it.

Knowledge is power...those who don't know what they are paying for obviously aren't at an age where they have to make their own living.

David "If it sounds too good to be true...."

[AlexM]

Knowledge is power...those who don't know what they are paying for obviously aren't at an age where they have to make their own living.


Or perhaps some of us are just too busy to care what kind of needles are being used.

Andoru,

Buy what you want. With Sehyun you'll actually be able to afford the extras: titanium men and deer leather kote for a fraction of the price that the Japanese would charge. Plus, the service is excellent.

If you want a GREAT set then buy a Mitsuboshi 11 000$ set or order from Moribudo (so expensive that they don't list the prices on the internet).

Don't put too much thought into this: it's just a bogu, not a car or a home.

[DCPan]

Or perhaps some of us are just too busy to care what kind of needles are being used.


AlexM, considering that I don't ever recall having conversed, practiced, or have the opportunity to offend you, you sure are taking a lot of time to single me out.

You can't be that busy if you have the time to pick on my opinion . As for the needle, refer back to the "knowing doesn't correlate with willingness to pay for" statement :D

Buy what you want. With Sehyun you'll actually be able to afford the extras: titanium men and deer leather kote for a fraction of the price that the Japanese would charge. Plus, the service is excellent.


If cost is a concern (which usually is), titanium men is one of those extras on the bottom of my priority list. Unless you get head-butted a lot or train with the riot squad, you don't need it. It is actually easier on your spinal column if you use dura-aluminum since it is lighter.

Ready? My bogu is NOT made-in-Japan and my men has a dura-aluminum grille.

Similarly, if I haven't hammered that point to death already, 1.0bu in and of itself is an extra that on the bottom of the priority list in terms of cost savings...better material will pay off in the long run in terms of how the bogu molds to your body, how it takes up sweat, etc.


If you want a GREAT set then buy a Mitsuboshi 11 000$ set.

Well, for calling people Japanophile snobs, you sure don't do your reseach.

Mitsuboshi/Yasuyoshi is a Korean Bogu company with a Japanese storefront...that hardly qualifies as a Japanophile snob set.

:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Buy what you want. With Sehyun you'll actually be able to afford the extras: titanium men and deer leather kote for a fraction of the price that the Japanese would charge. Plus, the service is excellent.

A fraction? The set linked to earlier was about $US1150, for 1.2 bu titanium mengane deer kote. bogubag sells a similar set for $US1705, but it has bamboo doh and of course hard to say about all the little things. One step up for bogubag is $US2065 which gets you better materials and nagazashi stitching. One step up at Sehyun is $US2575, they don't say what the differences are but the bogu itself is uglier than the cheaper one. Things apparently aren't quite so clear-cut as you make out.

Frankly, if you're buying hand-stitched, you're interested in high quality. If you just wanted best function for money, you'd buy a good-quality 3 mm set and have done with it.

[Hai_hai]

...If you want a GREAT set then buy a Mitsuboshi 11 000$ set or order from Moribudo (so expensive that they don't list the prices on the internet).

Don't put too much thought into this: it's just a bogu, not a car or a home.

Moribudo does list prices for some of their sets and they do have low-budget bogu. Contact them if you really want their stuff. They have an English-speaking person on staff. You can ask for price quotes on bogu not listed on their website.

[AlexM]

Mitsuboshi is Korean???? WTF... Are you sure? With prices like that those, their bogu should be hand-stitched in the Japanese Alps by fair skinned shinto priestesses.

I picked on you specifically because I couldn't fathom how you saw the Sehyun description model as well... so flawed: The tsuki-dare looks fine, the kote look fine, the stitching looks fine, the dou looks... forget about the dou (you can choose your own colour anyway). Everything looks like every other bogu I have ever seen... and I have seen so many freaking bogu. I think you were just nipicking for nothing, so I nitpicked in return. Plus the last comment struck me as insulting so I fired back.

And yes, Sehyun offers the extras that I mentionned (the titanium and deer skin) at much less than the Japanese do with their MACHINE STITCHED sets (we're talking hundreds of dollars in difference). I mostly compared machine stitched sets when I was buying: and they offered the best quality to price ratio.

Listen, the Sehyun bogu are good quality. The very good Japanese stuff is better but one pair of kote might cost as much as half (or more) of an entire set and no one's going to say that your kendo will be better or worse for it.

I wouldn't recommend kendomecca.com (or whatever Tokyoman is calling themselves these days) which has similar prices to Sehyun. Mostly because when I talk to Koreans they tell me to go with Sehyun: they're well known and respected.

Titanium mengane rock! I use my face to break my many falls so having a solid mengane is important.

[Hai_hai]

...Titanium mengane rock! I use my face to break my many falls so having a solid mengane is important.

Make sure you don't tie your hakama himo around your chin chin. Then, you might not trip and fall.

[DCPan]

Mitsuboshi/Yasuyoshi is a Korean Bogu company with a Japanese storefront...that hardly qualifies as a Japanophile snob set.

:D

Incidently, I want to clarify that I am not implying that Mitsuboshi is misrepresenting their stuff.

When I called them up in the late 1990s, they were very frank and open about their stuff, where the parts are from, where they were assembled, and how that is reflected in the price difference.

As for Sehyun Bogu, I have "nothing" against it. I have simply pointed out how "I" make my choices...and that according to the price, pictures, and descriptions available to me, that would not be my choice. Is that a crime?

As I said before, AlexM, if you don't perceive a difference, don't pay for it or worry about it.

But don't call someone else a jerk because of it. Ask Neil Gendzwill. In the 90s, I spoke with him during my search for a new set of bogu because my 60-slot bamboo doh have 7 broken staves and I got a concussion from my worn-out 3mm machine stitched. I made numerous international phone calls and converse with numerous bogu craftsman and companies before I MADE MY CHOICE . If you can't perceive the differences in these bogu, perhaps you should ask yourself why other people can see things that you can not? Frankly, having seen a lot of bogu before don't mean anything if you don't know where they are from and what to look for.

1. Tell me a quick test to see if the mune on your doh is good or bad functionally.

2. Tell me a quick test to see if the futon on your bogu is good or bad functionally.

3. Do you know how to tell real deerskin kote palm from "heaven forbid" fake deerskin kote palm?

4. What cues will let you know a piece-meal set from a complete set, if they have the same stitch-width and embroidery pattern?

If you want the answers to these questions, go dig in the iaido-l archives. I will not belabor the point and repeat myself again, esp since you don't care.

As for Mitsuboshi being Korean, I read it on Kendo Nippon somewhere when an interview was conducted with their CEO...can't remember which issue it is at the moment.

Regards,

[DCPan]

I picked on you specifically because I couldn't fathom how you saw the Sehyun description model as well... so flawed

I didn't say Sehyun description are FLAWED.

If you read what I wrote AGAIN:

Bear in mind I have not seen the set in question.

It's really difficult to compare price over the internet, esp with websites that are not very descriptive.



I personally feel that almost all internet kendo websites are not descriptive enough for people to make a informed comparison or decision for bogu purchase. I did not say Sehyun website is FLAWED. That's YOU, not me.

It appears to me that you personally chose a set of Sehyun, and now is taking it personally because other people don't feel about it the same way you do.

I would not buy ANY kendo equipment without calling the folks up and asking them more about it. Ask Mr. Yamamoto at Tozando...I bugged him to death.

I simply encourage people to be more informed about what they are buying since money ain't easy to come by. Not caring is simply not a way to go, IMHO because even if money isn't an issue for you, whether the bogu will protect you properly or not, IS.

[Karaken]

I didn't say Sehyun description are FLAWED.

If you read what I wrote AGAIN:



I personally feel that almost all internet kendo websites are not descriptive enough for people to make a informed comparison or decision for bogu purchase. I did not say Sehyun website is FLAWED. That's YOU, not me.

It appears to me that you personally chose a set of Sehyun, and now is taking it personally because other people don't feel about it the same way you do.

I would not buy ANY kendo equipment without calling the folks up and asking them more about it. Ask Mr. Yamamoto at Tozando...I bugged him to death.

I simply encourage people to be more informed about what they are buying since money ain't easy to come by. Not caring is simply not a way to go, IMHO because even if money isn't an issue for you, whether the bogu will protect you properly or not, IS.

Point well taken - But we still don't have any testimony from SeHyun Users?
Anyone out there have used/still using SeHyun Bogu? How is it?

Center

[AlexM]

Speaking of re-reading:

I said your judgement of the Sehyun description model (not the webpage itself) was flawed: Please explain how the tsuki-dare looks "crooked" and what's your problem with the stitching?

I didn't call you a jerk: I said you were nitpicking. I said that those that look down on others that don't own a Japanese-made bogu were jerks... whether that applies to you or not is up to you.

Like you said earlier, all these questions are academic because we're not going to wear a bogu out as fast as say those that practice 6 days a week. The small differences just won't really add up so much. So why pay more or even care more for that matter?

Andoru,

The real reason the Koreans can undercut the Japanese prices doesn't have to do with quality: it has to do with complexe distribution networks and high labour costs in Japan as compared to Korea (among other things).

That's should have been the real focus of this thread from the start.

[Leon]

Damnit people!

I say we just call Sehuyn up and ask them!

Anybody speak Korean. We'll get the details straight from them.

Leon

-who is enjoying the banter of the "he said", "she said".

[DCPan]

Speaking of re-reading:

I said your judgement of the Sehyun description model (not the webpage itself) was flawed: Please explain how the tsuki-dare looks "crooked" and what's your problem with the stitching?


Click the link that was provided previously. Click on the picture so it is a larger size. Hold a ruler to the vertical bar of the grille and examine how things are suppose to fall on this line that "supposely" bisects the bogu. (Yes, the picture wasn't taken perfectly square to the men, but still.

As for the pattern embroidery, there's so much of it some of it is in the komune of the doh between the cord embroidery (called "ashi" incidently), making a disproportinate "komune/side doh" ratio which can also pinch your sides, depending on your body shape. Maybe it's just the angle, but those are the highest komune that I've ever seen.

Classically, the color embroidery doesn't go on the komune, only the cord embroidery does.

:D

[ctan]

Hi! I bought the 1.2 bu handstitched Sehyun bogu (the "best" one in the 1.2 range....I think it's model No. 120...the one without any description on the website, anyway) for US$1800 net. The only thing I did differently was to get a black 50 piece lookalike DO rather than a bamboo DO. I also got a nicer, more traditional MUNE (I chose it from the KAP list), and a traditional/standard TARE design.

I bought this through a Korean friend of mine who used to be the point-man making purchases for his university club in Korea. My friend (whom I completely trust) tells me that Sehyun is the biggest and best manufacturer of bogu in Korea and that they really are the Korea company of choice. You'll have to make up your own mind on this, of course (I don't want to offend anyone with this statement of opinion).

Sehyun's service is first rate. We went back and forth a good many times to make sure they were getting me the bogu designed exactly to my preferences. The manufacturing time was about a month and a half, and delivery was something like 3-4 days (to the US). The owner of Sehyun assured me that he got his best craftsman to build the set, and used only the very best materials (best quality deerskin, deerhair, fabric, dyeing, titanium men, etc). Since I'm no bogu expert, I'll just have to take his word for it. But, if you have any specific questions that you want answered on my bogu set (you'll have to tell me specifically what to look for and I'll tell you in turn what I see), please post and I'll do my best to answer in a timely fashion.

Personally, I am extremely happy with my purchase. I had a 2 mm machine set from another Korean company before, and while that was certainly adequate, the difference in quality is night and day (although that latter set cost like 1/4 the price, so I'm absolutely NOT complaining here!). The (Sehyun) bogu is soft, conforms well with my body, fits perfectly, and protects so well I really don't feel anything more than a mild thud even on wild hits. Protection was really high on my list of priorities when I considered getting a new bogu, and I can definitely say that I'm happy with what I got on those terms.

I've not used any Japanese-made handmade sets (or machine sets for the matter), so I can't really compare. I can only say that I'm happy with what I got. :smiley:

Hope this helps!

[Karaken]

Hi! I bought the 1.2 bu handstitched Sehyun bogu (the "best" one in the 1.2 range....I think it's model No. 120...the one without any description on the website, anyway) for US$1800 net. The only thing I did differently was to get a black 50 piece lookalike DO rather than a bamboo DO. I also got a nicer, more traditional MUNE (I chose it from the KAP list), and a traditional/standard TARE design.

I bought this through a Korean friend of mine who used to be the point-man making purchases for his university club in Korea. My friend (whom I completely trust) tells me that Sehyun is the biggest and best manufacturer of bogu in Korea and that they really are the Korea company of choice. You'll have to make up your own mind on this, of course (I don't want to offend anyone with this statement of opinion).

Sehyun's service is first rate. We went back and forth a good many times to make sure they were getting me the bogu designed exactly to my preferences. The manufacturing time was about a month and a half, and delivery was something like 3-4 days (to the US). The owner of Sehyun assured me that he got his best craftsman to build the set, and used only the very best materials (best quality deerskin, deerhair, fabric, dyeing, titanium men, etc). Since I'm no bogu expert, I'll just have to take his word for it. But, if you have any specific questions that you want answered on my bogu set (you'll have to tell me specifically what to look for and I'll tell you in turn what I see), please post and I'll do my best to answer in a timely fashion.

Personally, I am extremely happy with my purchase. I had a 2 mm machine set from another Korean company before, and while that was certainly adequate, the difference in quality is night and day (although that latter set cost like 1/4 the price, so I'm absolutely NOT complaining here!). The (Sehyun) bogu is soft, conforms well with my body, fits perfectly, and protects so well I really don't feel anything more than a mild thud even on wild hits. Protection was really high on my list of priorities when I considered getting a new bogu, and I can definitely say that I'm happy with what I got on those terms.

I've not used any Japanese-made handmade sets (or machine sets for the matter), so I can't really compare. I can only say that I'm happy with what I got. :smiley:

Hope this helps!

Finally, someone with SeHyun bogo. Thanks CTAN! Now the questions..

1. How long ago have you purchased the set?
2. How often do you practice?
3. Have you noticed any discomfort, lack of protection as the set ages?
4. Have you had any service/repair done? If yes, cost?

Center.

[ctan]

Hey, Karaken!


1. I've had it for around 2 months; it's new.
2. 2-3 times per week (I've only practised for 3 years, unfortunately; this set is aimed as my "lifetime" upgrade :smiley: ; I tried to get the best I could afford).
3. No, actually, the set fits better (more snug) as time passed (then again it's only 2 months so that's expected). The KOTE especially gets more comfy with time (a little stiff at the start).
4. Too new for repairs, but my Korean friend tells me that repair service (by Sehyun) is supposed to be available for life and free to nominal (maybe just raw material costs). I'll check with him on this again. Maybe other Korean kenshis can confirm this?

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful.

[ctan]

Oh, I should also add that there is another kenshi (2nd dan) in my dojo who bought the 2mm machine set from Sehyun (it's the No. 200 model) for around US$700. He is really happy with his purchase too. I had a look at the quality and I think it looks really good. I can't really comment on the material, etc, since, really, I couldn't possibly know from looking at the set (it all *looks* really nice and high quality, but what would I know), but the perceptible difference (in terms of quality) between his machine and my handstitch is "softness". My bogu is definitely more pliable (and, I would imagine, comfortable). Also, he got the bogu *as is*; I mean, so it looks exactly like on the website with the embroidery on the sides of the MUNE and across the TARE. I personally think that particular design looks a little odd (although I'm told it's reasonably popular in Korea), but as far as I know, Sehyun is pretty good about modifying designs (you should definitely try to talk them into doing this for you for free if you're interested). I personally would push for a more traditional TARE and definitely one of the less ostentatious designs on the KAP page (which is exactly what I did for my bogu), but that's just me.


Hope this helps.


Take center! :wink:

[Leon]

Ctan,

If you don't mind me asking, about how much did you spend on shipping?
It will be quite awhile until I can order my Bogu, but I'd like to assess just how much my total costs will be.

Thanks, :smiley:

Leon

[ctan]

Hi, Leon!

Sehyun just offered me a total (net) price; shipping included, and we negotiated on that. If I recall correctly from my first bogu purchase (not from Sehyun but from another Korean manufacturer), the cost of sending around 6lbs (typical bogu weight, I think) to the US using EMS is not too expensive (around $40, maybe?).

Best,
ctan

[Neil Gendzwill]

Bogu is around 7 kg (15 lbs) and the cost is usually closer to $100 for EMS, maybe $60 if you go by sea-mail.

[Andoru]

My current quote is $108 Australian Dollars to get it shipped to Sydney

[ctan]

Oh, yes, I may have messed up lbs and kg. I stand corrected. Sorry. :redface:

[Leon]

Thanks!

Thats about how much I guessed it would be. Unfortunate really, but understandable. It's just going to take me that much longer to save up for it. I just have to keep reminding myself.....patience is a virtue....patience is a virtue!

Thanks again,

Leon

[Karaken]

Thanks!

Thats about how much I guessed it would be. Unfortunate really, but understandable. It's just going to take me that much longer to save up for it. I just have to keep reminding myself.....patience is a virtue....patience is a virtue!

Thanks again,

Leon

Doesn't Eguchi charge $99 for US to US shipping? I think around $100 is what you'd expect unless you can pick them up.

Center.

[hal]

Hi Karaken, here's some more information on Sehyun Bogu. I purchased my 2.0mm machine stitched bogu set from Sehyun about 7-8 years ago and have been very satisfied with my purchase. Korea was in the midst of the IMF crisis when I purchased my set in Korea, so I paid 400-500 US Dollars for a set that normally went for 800. The quality and materials used are first-rate and are as good as any bogu I've seen in this range. The leather on my Kote have only recently developed two small holes after 7-8 years of twice weekly practices (more recently four time a week) and have held up nicely. In addition to the bogu, the manager at the DongDaeMun store included keikogi, hakama, shinai and bogu bukuro, and countless other items with my purchase because kendo wasn't as popular back then in Korea. I continue to purchase keikogi from Sehyun because the quality and price are very reasonable (20 dollars).
To come to the defense of the gaudy Do options that Sehyun provides, I don't think that the options reflect the preferences of the Sehyun owners, as the manager of the store recommended a design (black, red stitching) that I continue to appreciate because it is so conservative and demure.
Although I haven't purchased any bogu from Sehyun or any other vendor since I bought my set (I really haven't needed to), based on the quality of my set, I completely recommend them.


Oh yeah, thanks Karaken and others for keeping these topics and discussions relevant to Kendo. I visit the forums on occasion and although I've been disappointed by the continued frequency of "noise" and squabbling, the discussions pertinent to Kendo are interesting.

[4doormadman]

i just thought i would chime in here..

after reading this thread, i got curious about korean made bogu, and decided I would give sehyun a try

the service? in one word, awesome. English wasn't top notch, but its not like i know a lot of korean. Very friendly, and very fast. I got my bogu shipped to me in less than two weeks.

the quality? I've been using my 3mm tozando set for about 9 years, and its held up really well (I may in fact keep using it for practices and such)
I went for a 1.2 BU handmade set from sehyun, and its just beautiful. Although it can't compare to handmade tozando stuff i've seen, it's still quite the looker.

the fit? excellent. the kote took very little break in time. The men is still a bit stiff, but 3 practices in and its really starting to fit to my face. its just as comfortable as my beaten up tozando men.

my thumbs up to sehyun..you can't go wrong with the price..1.2 BU cost me about 800 CDN (without the do, which i didn't need)

and yes..that was one expensive experiment :wink:

i love the sehyun stuff, but I'll still use my japanese 3mm...its served me well

my conclusion: if you're looking for quick bogu on a budget, go for sehyun

[Andoru]

2 weeks ago I placed an order for 5 bogu from Sehyun. Sehyun and I started our correspondence about 2 weeks prior to order confirmation. Like what the other posters said - the customer service is top notch! My emails were usually replied to within the day. Very nice people to deal with!

My dojo mates and I are very happy with the quality of the bogu. It's tough to beat them in terms of value.

[tantadi]

Can't get through to Sehyun on email, "failed delivery" messages...

[Andoru]

Try bit later.

[nonamehandle]

Here's my 2 cents worth,

before purchasing my sehyun bogu, i had a look around the different shops around sehyun store(dongdaemun area in seoul). most of the kendo equipment stores are found there, and this is the are where you would goto if you are in korea and in seoul, to buy kendo eqipment.

sehyun equipment is by far the higher quality compared to the other equipment from the other stores(3-4) that i looked in. sehyun also is the only equipment carrier in korea where they put their name on the bogu(according to the owner-and has been shown to be the case so far for me). from what i could gather, it seems that there are only a select number of factories churning out kendo equipment in korea, and that these factories supply rest of the korean kendo equipment companies, basically OEM system. sehyun either has a special relationship with one of these factories or runs one of these factories-hence the being able to put the brand name.
when i refer to a special relationship, i mean in terms of more rigid quality inspections, etc. since their equipment is markedly superior to the other kendo stores that i visited. think nike(or any other brand) that has another factory manufacture the product, but insists on stringent quality control.

in response to comparison to other bogus, they are better quality than what you find with e-bogu stuff(IMHO) at the same price level-i would sat that you would need to go at least 2 levels higher(of e-bogu) to reach the same level, and they are better quality than the japanese bogu of the same price level. but then those in the states and europe will have to pay the shipping cost, which will eat away some of the savings in cost.

when i was buying my equipment, i was missing and matching sets, and in the case of kote, the owner told me and i could also tell by examining them, that the higher priced machine stitched kotes were better quality than the lower price hand stitched ones. the reason for this being that some people just want to show/know that they have hand stitched equipment(like some people wanting japanese v.s. korean due to "psychological" reasons-i'm talking about the same price level here).

so to address the question of the $1000 hand stitched from sehyun, it might actually not be as good as the better quality machine stuff from sehyun, you should ask directly, e.g. "between this and that what do you think is better quality?" they were quite straight forward all things-and note that hand stitched might indicated only "partial" hand stitching so be sure to ask abotu this also. additionally there were perceivable difference between the medium priced and the higher priced machine stitched, but most of them in finishing.

in regards to the posting about the broken do, the owner told me that 1 out 20 (or was it 1 out of 50) do will "break" and this is due to the manufacturing process and cannot be helped-they acknowledge this and will of course replace it free of chrage. but this breakage happens in the first several months of training, so if has held up for atleast couple of months, than you are fine.

as for myself, i got the higher end machine kote, higher end tare-but only upto the point where there actually was "qualitative" difference, i.e. i wasn't paying for the honor of having another extra line or embroidery on the tare, do-w/o bamboo, but nice finishing and mune made from one solid piece of leather(since this was the piece of equipment that failed me first-after the kote that is-on the last equipment), and higher end men that was non titanium-i do not have the problem of failing on my men like AlexM, i usu. tumble side ways, and one word of advice to AlexM, beer belly :wink:

hope this helps any

[Nishi]

Both me (#150) and my wife (Atama #120) have 1.2 bu from Sehyun, plus we have assisted many kenshi in our former U.K. dojo to purchase machine stitched kits from this company as well. We have owned these kits for almost 3 years now.

My opinion...The bogu is beyond resonable for its price, however the only thing I would do different is upgrade the kote to a deer skin The higher end kits come with a nice deer skin kote anyway and the wrist protection is great. I would go with the #120 kit as the extra money (and its not alot) can be seen in the quality over the #150 I bought...of course im being picky though. I have one complaint which I think I have mentioned in another post, the material is very very course. Even after a few years of working it in, it is still difficult to move my arms above my head freely, and i train pretty faithfuly 3 times per/week. I did replace the kote for a softer 3 mm stitch with a softer deerskin palm as well. My bogu looks like new still, and is showing very few areas of breakdown, in fact the 3mm kote I added almost 1 year later are showing more breakdown. I would buy from Sehyun again and probably will, but mabye a nice 1.5bu with a bamboo dou. I think the material in my bogu, will break down before it breaks in, but ive never experienced a 'hard hit' either.