Jodan no Kamae

[regularyojimbo]

What is the correct position for the left arm in jodan no kamae?

Left fist between eyebrows, left forearm allmost horizontal?

Thanks

[Musha]

Hi again regularyojimbo,

From a Nihon kendo kata perspective when doing normal, right foot forwards you hold the Bokken centre. When you do left foot forwards left hand over your left foot. Gmason that visits my dojo from time to time is the one to ask he won the Kata competition I heard :D.

[JSchmidt]

Left hand just above left eye, about 1 fist-distance away.
I have my my left forearm at about 80 degrees (vertical)..it varies slightly from person to person, but you want to keep the elbow down, as it encourages a better cutting motion and makes your left kote harder to hit.

Jakob

[Tenken]

to tell you the truth, everyone's jyodan is different. I have my right arm slight to the right by moving the body without moving my left arm. At this possition, they can't hit tsuki that well and for the opponent, it feels like you're been stared down at. In my case, I do it this way because my right eye is not as well as my left. I have to show off my left eye to see better. Some people has their shinai parallel to the floor rather than having it up to make yourself taller. I've seen some people that has there kamae in front of their face instead of having it on top. So its best to do the jyodan that fits you the best not what other people's ideal is.

[Neil Gendzwill]

For kata, the centrepoint of your tsuka should be above the centrepoint of your head. The bokken should be angled 30-45 degrees back. For migi-jodan, it should be straight back and your hands should line up on your centre. For hidari jodan, it should be angling a little to your right, which means your hands are seperated across the centreline. Common mistake is to have the left hand centred for hidari jodan but if you think about always having the centre of your tsuka be centred, you'll get it right. Left fist should be slightly above and forward of your head. Migi-jodan the feet are same as chudan. Hidari-jodan the feet are same as chudan, just reversed.

As far as jodan with shinai, some of the other people are more qualified than I to comment as that is their main kamae and I'm just a casual jodan player. I try to maintain a similar kamae to hidari-jodan from the kata but I find my hands tend to be lower. I think this is laziness - if I remember to keep them up I lose less kote :)

[Yowai]

I think this is laziness...

That's wishful thinking. Maybe you have a childhood fear of tsuki while at Jodan; the fear pulling your kote down. Have you consulted your ancenstral spirits?

[eric]

Hello,

This is my first post on this forum. I have recently started practicing jodan and was wondering what some of your favorite differences are. I know that every one has their own personal style of jodan, what is yours? Some quick background, jodan has been suggested to me for many years and I did not feel confortable with my chudan to change, now I have just gone to my first tournament with jodan and am wondering how everyone feels about these differences. Thank you in advance for your time. Cheers!

[Cypher]

Just out of interest: Eric, what is your personal version of Jodan? Hidari, migi, katate, morote, etc?

And have you ever faced a kasumi/jizurigedan no kamae kendoka in training?
Just wondering; I've never seen anyone using it ^^

[Tenken]

you mean hiraseigan no kamae? (moving the tip of the shinai to your right pointing at the left hand of the jyodan no kamae) or something else?

[Tenken]

I never heard of jizurigedan no kamae. It could be called something else in my area. could you tell in detail?(forgot to in on the post before)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Do people try kasumi on you much, Tenken? What do you do with that? I figure you just got to get them to move somehow someway 'cuz if they don't move you've got nothing.

[Cypher]

sorry; I should have made it clear that kasumi and jizurigedan are the same.

here's where I got the latter name from:
Jizurigedan no kamae

The blade is held at waist level, then the tip is pointed at the opponent until the blade is parallel to the ground. The wrists are crossed, twisting the blade so that the edge is diagonal to the ground and facing up and to the right. This stance is quick when facing an opponent in jodan or hasso. This stance is also known as kasumi no kamae.

(http://gradcenter.marlboro.edu/~btaylor/ronin/kenjutsu.html)

This site also has information on some other weird kamae I never heard of; however they are allegedly kenjutsu rather than kendo, so...

(I might just point out that the only kamae I actually use is chudan and occasionally the seigan variant; I am a very low level kendoka i.e. mukyu, I only find these things out through internet research out of interest)

Is kasumi used as the ideal jodan-stopper? I saw this one kendoka using Jodan (and purely katate waza) at the 2003 Mumeishi Championship, but the opponent used chudan (or maybe a slight variant; I cant remember- I was too amazed at the sight of Jodan for the first time)

[mingshi]

Cyper: If I remember correctly, one of the fight at British Open 2002... Hirai (Mumeishi Jodan) vs Matsuo (Nagamitsu)... Matsuo used Kasumi - though most people fighting Hirai's Jodan just freaked out, and you can see people pulling out all sorts of kamae...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Jizurigedan no kamae

The blade is held at waist level, then the tip is pointed at the opponent until the blade is parallel to the ground. The wrists are crossed, twisting the blade so that the edge is diagonal to the ground and facing up and to the right. This stance is quick when facing an opponent in jodan or hasso. This stance is also known as kasumi no kamae.
If the wrists are crossed, the blade points left not right. Usually kasumi against jodan or nito is higher than that, with the right arm at shoulder height.

[Cypher]

Mr. Gendzwill- I just pasted in the description from the website; at Mumeishi you only study chudan as beginners. Sorry for the confusion again.

I also heard of kasumi variants (Ogasumi, Kogasumi etc)
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/7481/tsksr/position/
Yes, I know they're Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, but I can't comment.

Do such variants play any role or is the standard kasumi only used against jodan? (sorry, I ask too many questions)

[eric]

I fight from a standard jodan position. Left foot forward with my left hand slightly in front of my men. The main concern for me at this point is hiiting clean men and kote. There are so many variations from this kamae I am just interested in anyone elses. I have faught against many people in a stance that is similar but, higher, as has been mentioned. One of my favorite waza, still in development, from jodan is kote-men. Thanks in advance for the responses. Cheers!

[DCPan]

One of my favorite waza, still in development, from jodan is kote-men. Thanks in advance for the responses. Cheers!

IMHO, the spirit of jodan is contrary to rensoku-waza :D

I've been taught that you should go for one definitive strike when in jodan.

I wonder what Tenken thinks?

:D

[Inouye02]

IMHO, the spirit of jodan is contrary to rensoku-waza :D

I've been taught that you should go for one definitive strike when in jodan.

I wonder what Tenken thinks?

:D

tenken is so fast, he doesnt need to go for the second target,

[sminki]

tenken is so fast, he doesnt need to go for the second target,

I have a short clip of Chiba sensei. THAT'S jodan. Whoa, he's blinding-fast. I tried uploading to this thread but it won't let me... :disapp:

[Kent Enfield]

IMHO, the spirit of jodan is contrary to rensoku-waza :D

I've been taught that you should go for one definitive strike when in jodan.Do you remember what the Japanese phrase is that Aoki sensei used to describe jodan at the iaido seminar last June? It was "itto nani-nani." I remember the English translation was "one cut, two pieces."

[DCPan]

Do you remember what the Japanese phrase is that Aoki sensei used to describe jodan at the iaido seminar last June? It was "itto nani-nani." I remember the English translation was "one cut, two pieces."

Itto-Ryo-tan?

[deathbykendo]

I've been taught that you should go for one definitive strike when in jodan.

:D

This is true men or kote are your main cuts, but your allowed to throw in a kote, men every now and then:)

Kirby

[deathbykendo]

I fight from a standard jodan position. Left foot forward with my left hand slightly in front of my men. ....snip.... One of my favorite waza, still in development, from jodan is kote-men.

Are you doing a katate kote, men or using both hands?
Why do you do one over the other?

Kirby

[OSatsu Jin]

sorry; I should have made it clear that kasumi and jizurigedan are the same.

here's where I got the latter name from:
Jizurigedan no kamae

The blade is held at waist level, then the tip is pointed at the opponent until the blade is parallel to the ground. The wrists are crossed, twisting the blade so that the edge is diagonal to the ground and facing up and to the right. This stance is quick when facing an opponent in jodan or hasso. This stance is also known as kasumi no kamae.

(http://gradcenter.marlboro.edu/~btaylor/ronin/kenjutsu.html)

This site also has information on some other weird kamae I never heard of; however they are allegedly kenjutsu rather than kendo, so...

That site is defenitions to words found in the book series."Legend of the Five Rings"...set in a fictitious world of Rokugan. 1. The Scorpion, 2. The Unicorn, 3. The Crane, 4. The Pheonix, 5. The Crab, 6. The Dragon, 7. The Lion. And the second series of it is the Four WInd Saga. 1. The Steel Throne, 2. Wind of Honor 3. Wind of War, 4. Wind of Justice, and 5. Wind of Truth.....which is the one I am reading now....


It's accuracy may be questionable....especially when refering to kenjutsu kame.

John