katate-waza

[Anjin-san]

Just read KW's 51st AJKC coverage and the part about Shodai Kenji's katate renzoku waza (p.9 bottom right) sparked an interest.

Are katate waza ever done from chudan? Have you ever seen them used as such in shiai? Also what should one using katate waza keep in mind with regards to tenouchi?

I would ask sensei, but he would tell me to worry doing it properly with two hands first. :rambo:

<rei>

[JSchmidt]

Yes, you can use katate waza from chudan, but most chudan players dont have the wrist strength to do them effectivly.
I've seen it used in shiai, but I've never seen it score.
One I was taught recently was katsugi-men, but doing it katate instead..
Tenouchi is the same as in chudan.

Jakob

[Anjin-san]

Thanks for your reply.

most chudan players dont have the wrist strength to do them effectivly
Following that, do you do anything to build wrist strength apart from katate suburi?

Also, at exactly what point during a cut does your right hand leave the shinai?

[JSchmidt]

When I started jodan, I had one of those funky weights you'll see at some kendo-suppliers, fanshaped, with a sword-like handle.
It was great for using in the office and it doesnt stress the wrist as much as katate-suburi can.
I can't speak much of doing katate-waza from chudan, but in jodan, you use the right thumb to flick the shinai forward, which you do at about nose-height. (Varies with the type of cut).
I do occasionally practice katate kote-men (in kihon), but at the moment it's more an interesting exercise rather than something I plan to use :) (In the near future anyway).

Jakob

[Shiro]

Might sound stupid but what exactly are katate waza? :D

[Yowai]

It's a misspelling of "karate-waza", which refers to the cross-sport potential between karate and kendo.

[Anjin-san]

Might sound stupid but what exactly are katate waza? :D Cuts using only the left hand. Generally used from jodan no kamae. The advantage is that you get a bit of extra reach, but it kills your left wrist.

katate kote men... one day. :evil:

[Neil Gendzwill]

in jodan, you use the right thumb to flick the shinai forward, which you do at about nose-height.
That's an interesting technique, I've never seen it before. I don't think you'll get much speed out of your thumb though.

The two most common techniques are to use the right hand to throw the shinai forward with the left hand finishing, or to use the right hand to hold the shinai back whilst keeping a lot of tension in the left hand. The former leads to a kamae where the shinai is angled back more, while the latter has the shinai more like jodan in kata. I think of the latter as the "wound spring" approach and find it works very well. It has the disadvantage of being hard on your left hand, I find my hand gets sore if I practice this a lot.

Someone mentioned katate-katsugi-men. In this case the wound spring approach works very well - as your bring the shinai back with your right hand, keep a lot of tension in the left. Then as you bring your left hand forward and let go with the right, the tension will cause the shinai to snap forward sharply.

[mystic_kendoka]

before our class was doing uchikomi with katate... does anybody else find katate do difficult? (most members of our club got hit on, lower waist/upper side chest..)

[Hai_hai]

Just read KW's 51st AJKC coverage and the part about Shodai Kenji's katate renzoku waza (p.9 bottom right) sparked an interest.

Are katate waza ever done from chudan? Have you ever seen them used as such in shiai? Also what should one using katate waza keep in mind with regards to tenouchi?

I would ask sensei, but he would tell me to worry doing it properly with two hands first. :rambo:

<rei>

Hey, you need to worry about doing it properly with two hands first. BAKA!!!!!

[mystic_kendoka]

ignore the above...

[moocow65]

That's an interesting technique, I've never seen it before. I don't think you'll get much speed out of your thumb though.

The two most common techniques are to use the right hand to throw the shinai forward with the left hand finishing, or to use the right hand to hold the shinai back whilst keeping a lot of tension in the left hand. The former leads to a kamae where the shinai is angled back more, while the latter has the shinai more like jodan in kata. I think of the latter as the "wound spring" approach and find it works very well. It has the disadvantage of being hard on your left hand, I find my hand gets sore if I practice this a lot.

Someone mentioned katate-katsugi-men. In this case the wound spring approach works very well - as your bring the shinai back with your right hand, keep a lot of tension in the left. Then as you bring your left hand forward and let go with the right, the tension will cause the shinai to snap forward sharply.
Neil, I think he's referring to the right hand basically pushing off the shinai and using the left hand to hit in jodan kamae. Pushing off with the thumb is what Tenken and my sensei taught us to do when we do jodan.
As for katate waza to count, I heard that the arm has to be extended fully out. It can't be bent at all. Well as far as yoko-men goes, that's what I heard.

[Neil Gendzwill]

That's interesting. I must admit I don't have a lot of data points to go on here. Do you keep your thumb lined up with the tsuru all the time?

[JSchmidt]

That's interesting. I must admit I don't have a lot of data points to go on here. Do you keep your thumb lined up with the tsuru all the time?

Pretty much..I keep it on the seam of the tsuka, like shown here:
http://www.halifaxkendo.org/Jodanwaza/p151.jpg
(Good book, btw)
I played around abit with the 'tension' technique, but as you said, it's very hard on the left wrist and I found that I only got half the speed of the 'throwing' technique. (Well, it felt alot slower anyway).

Jakob

[Neil Gendzwill]

I played around abit with the 'tension' technique, but as you said, it's very hard on the left wrist and I found that I only got half the speed of the 'throwing' technique. (Well, it felt alot slower anyway).

I went the other way on the advice of Tsumura-sensei (very senior guy here in Canada), and it worked 100% better (corroborated by those dojo-mates on the receiving end).

[JSchmidt]

Well, if it works for you....:)

Jakob

[Hai_hai]

ignore the above...

Don't ever challenge my knowledge, punk.

[litige]

Go for it Master Jedhai!

[Musha]

lol the trolls are breading
Another one for my list>Hai_Hai :D

[Hai_hai]

lol the trolls are breading
Another one for my list>Hai_Hai :D

That's breeding, not breading... hooo... heee... hoooo... heeee... I sense your anger... hooo... heee... focus your energies... hoooo... heee... come to the dark side... hooo.... heeee... you are no match for me...

[Hai_hai]

Sometimes...
doki doki... ^_^
when I walk around the dojo...
you know...
getting a drink of water or something...
mizu nomimasu...^_^
I feel like Darth Vadar or one of those guards in the Death Star who wear the red cloaks...
the hakama...
the bogu...
kako ii desu... ^_^
yeah...
the Star Wars Kid...

your a$$ is mine!!!!

[moocow65]

Right now I'm working on a katate kote men uchi from nito. I used to believe that nidan waza using katate was impossible, but now I know that it is indeed possible. I think the only problem is that the kime on the men from a kote men strike would not be sufficient enough to be an ippon, but I guess your arm just has to be strong enough to get that kime. From jodan, renzoku waza is more difficult because a heavier shinai is used, but you can always twirl the shinai completely around and strike again. But I personally think the best way to do renzoku waza from jodan would be to stike, and pull back the shinai back into the jodan position quickly, and strike again. Any thoughts?

[JSchmidt]

But I personally think the best way to do renzoku waza from jodan would be to stike, and pull back the shinai back into the jodan position quickly, and strike again. Any thoughts?

That's what I normally do when we practice kote-men in kihon. I just get the shinai high enough to get my right hand on it, to assist with the men cut.
Distance is tricky, as it's very easy to get too close.
Unfortunatly I busted my left wrist 7 weeks ago and are only just now getting back into kendo again and my left arm is soooo weak now.
(Sprained the tendon running from the pinkie to the bottom of the wrist, which makes any kind of practice impossible).

Jakob

[Tenken]

Sorry to tell everyone who is trying to do katate waza but, you shouldn't use it. Using it could mess up your rist and at times hurt your apponent(if not used properly). If you really want to use it, I recomend doing katate suburi for about 6 months till you could really start using it in PRACTICE. then another 6 months till it could be used in a tournament. For all the people who has passed this stage should be able to use it without twisting or breaking their wrists. It took me a year and 6 months till I got an "ok" by my sensei to use it in a tournament.

[Anjin-san]

If you really want to use it, I recomend doing katate suburi for about 6 months till you could really start using it in PRACTICE.
Just so we're clear, katate suburi is just like normal shomen suburi but with just the left hand?

Any points to note or common mistakes with katate suburi?

[moocow65]

Just so we're clear, katate suburi is just like normal shomen suburi but with just the left hand?

Any points to note or common mistakes with katate suburi?
Yeah, here's a mistake that I see alot of people do. They do katate suburi performing the swing at the side of the body rather than in the middle of the body. When you use two hands, you're forced to hold the shinai in the middle of your body, but when you use only one hand, you tend to do suburi at the edge of your body. Doing suburi like this is extremely easy and I believe it is improper. You're pretty much doing katsugi-suburi instead of doing the proper suburi. So when you do suburi, make sure the shinai is in the center of your body, and not off to the side. There's also another mistake, but it takes too long to explain.

[JSchmidt]

Also beware of the square grip. You should still hold the shinai properly. (See picture earlier).
Start slowly. Trying to do them fast can damage your wrist if it isnt strong enough.

[ralphy]

There's also another mistake, but it takes too long to explain I am sure there are some people around who'd appreciate your efforts.

[Tenken]

I'll explain it but I think moocow is better at explaining it then I am.

[Bojangles]

Yeah, please explain. I have just started doing katate suburi to help get rid of natural right handed-ness. Ill be your best friend if you do :p.