hiki waza

[kendokamax]

again these aren't the most interesting/flamming topics but why not...

I heard that in some dojo, Hiki waza aren't really use that much.

I personaly use hikiwaza a lot, to get out of tsubazeria and sometimes I can get a point doing it. I think these techniques are the less dangerous to use since there isn't many possible way the oponent can do any oji waza against them.

However, I don't want to put a lot of importance on these waza in my training since they are techniques I don't really believe that can improve my overall kendo. So I usualy use them without really thinking/caring of getting ippon.


So my question is what do you think about hiki waza?

Happy kendo!!

[Will]

I think it's too hard to get a point with :p

[Confound]

Hiki-waza is an excellent wayto get out of tsubazeriai without getting into trouble. in the places where I train,i'm guaranteed that my opponent is going to be thinking about hiki waza.

look at it this way: If your opponent thinks about hiki waza, you need to think about it too. if your opponent isn't thinking about it, you may score a quick point.

it's the hiki waza arms race...

c

[JSchmidt]

I look at it the other way:D. I try to get people to do hikiwaza, so I can follow up and often score that way. It's hard to defend when you are going backwards.
Having said that, I also need to work on mine. It's only just now, that I'm starting to people to do fumikomi with right foot, when doing hikiwaza, but I'm making sure I move fast enough to get away for any eventual counter-attack.

Jakob

[hamish]

If you use hiki waza without thinking/caring whether you get a point or not, it certainly won't improve your kendo.

What are you doing in tsuba zeriai if you've not got any real intention of trying to strike your opponent with a proper strike? If you're not going to use hiki waza with full intent, tai atari off at a different angle and try again from issoku itto no ma-ai.

There's nothing wrong with hiki waza at all, and there are any number of oji waza to use against hiki waza: nuki waza, kaeshi waza, suriage waza, uchi-otoshi waza come to mind immediately.

Some techniques are more suited to some people's kendo than others, so if you like using hiki waza, go for it, but you shouldn't be trying to do hiki waza at the expense of other techniques from issoku itto no ma-ai, that's the only proviso.

Hamish

[AlexM]

I have difficulty doing hiki waza properly enough to get a point. The foot-stomp-while-going-backward-thing screws up my timing. I'm going to try using my forward momentum to push the opponent back and then get the hit (basically something like men-"push"-hiki men) all in one movement.
Also, hiki waza really only looks good (to me at least) when it's painfully obvious (i.e. the opponent is completly open, maybe after a feint). I personally have difficulty scoring it when watching a match (not as shinpan but just as a spectator): any tips?

[JSchmidt]

As with kendo from chudan, you need to create the opening.
Simplest way, is to push the opponents hands the way you want to cut. Push down and the opponent will push back up, making an opening for do; Push up and you can create opening for men; Push his top hand to the right and you can open up the kote, etc.

Of course, as with anything, all these can be used against you, if the opponent is aware of it. :D

Daff

[kendo_chick]

I personally do not use Hiki waza alot, only for hiki-do which I find if you do right looks obvious enough. Our club uses hiki waza rather often and there are a few in the club that do it very well, unfortunately I am not one of them. I use it only for do/kote strikes since I am much shorter than my average male opponent. Any other time I use it is to get out of tsuba zeriai and back quickly to get a kote or men as it usually throws the other person off balance and while they are thinking about keeping their balance you can use it as an opportunity to score.

[lewis]

Our sensei likes to see a lot of hiki waza, especially in the junior students, because it shows our spirit is up. However, when he shinpans in the dojo or at our annual tournament, he has never, to my knowledge given a point to a hiki waza, even to a senior student. So most people treat it as a way to get out of tsubazeriai rather than as a real opportunity to get a point.

I was pleased to see a hiki waza in the 49th All-japan tournament. Until then, I thought it was an unspoken rule that such a point was impossible.

[kendokamax]

That's true doing hiki waza and not just backing up is a lot more active way to do kendo. I personaly prefer it that way.

I got a few points with hiki waza in tournaments so far,
but ya again i'm just mudansha so they give almost anything that looks like a hit. lol

[saki_wooah]

I use hiki waza a lot, especially hiki kote. I don't know why. But doing this a lot will get you tired very soon, if you're doing keiko.

hey max, yoshiiiiiiiiiiih ^-^

[stinkyKote]

On a side note, I've been watching some clips of the high school championships (probably watched about 200+ seperate points) and the nearly the most common point scored was a hiki-men, outstripped only by men- coming up in roughly 20% of the points I ended up watching .. man, those high school kids sure know how to put 'em in there...

[mingshi]

My theory is that, Hiki-waza is for shorter Kendoka.

Tall people generally have a longer reach, and they can even cut Men from toi-maai if their opponent is much shorter.
Applying the same principle, a short person can go back to the correct striking distance from Tsuba-zeriai faster... because from there a taller person has to travel a longer distance for the first 1/3 of the blade to arrive on the opponent...

When fighting against "blockers", Hiki-do/gyaku-do/gyaku-kote are really useful because most of them expect a hiki-men/kote...

Sigh... sorry for the bad English here.

Another thing is that, I think it's much harder to score a Hiki-waza because:
1) It's hard to get Ki-ken-tai-ichi when going backwards, especially if you want the stamping sound.
2) Where should your Zanshin go? (I need some advice too because for most of the Hiki-do I made... I went Hasso for zanshin:redface: )
3) Again, this is an invention of Modern Kendo. You cannot possibly cut someone effectively on going backwards. Plus, If your opponent has a strong center, he/she doesn't need to care about any Hiki-waza you made because his/her Shinai tip is on your Tsuki already. Just quietly go backwards.

[Vagabond]

"3) Again, this is an invention of Modern Kendo. You cannot possibly cut someone effectively on going backwards"

I saw a kenjutsu video once where there were kata that uchidachi perfomed a serie of cuts going backwards while pursued by shidachi .

[JSchmidt]

"2) Where should your Zanshin go?"

Initially, where you cut it, as in a forward cut. In that sense, you still have to 'cut' the target. Just bouncing it off the men is not enough; Then, with men cuts especially, throw your arms up and slightly back, to assist your movement away from the opponent.
(Note, that the opponent has to be either static or moving backwards when you cut, otherwise it wont count.)
With kote or do, only pull the shinai to the side until you are far enough away from the opponent that they can't counter-attack.


When you get sufficient distance away, resume chudan.

As for the fumikomi, the only way to get a nice sound (for me anyway), is to use the right foot. As with the forward cut, use it as springboard to propel you backwards. (It's only after 2 years I'm able to get something that feels right).

Jakob

[kendokamax]

I have been told that for zanshin on hiki men. You have to try to hold your shinai the highest possible pointing upward.

Also have to go very very fast backward at least 3-4 steps , then ya resume in chudan.


Hiki dou......hum I think you have to keep your shinai a bit on the right side. DUnno! Watch Mitsunobu Satou on 47th zennihon championship. He does one nice hiki dou there.

But I think the key is really that you go the fastest possible backward without your opponent being able to catch you back.

happy kendooooooooooo!!!!!

[hamish]

Re. hiki waza being from modern kendo:

In a lot of the Katayama-ryu kenjutsu basic drills and kata, we cut going back. Since your body is moving back at the same time as you're cutting, it actually makes for quite an effective cut. To cut properly you have to either push the sword forward or pull it back.

Seitei iai no. 3 is similar, as you do the final cut as you step back into kamae, technically a hiki waza, and you see a lot of cuts in naginata where you pull back, or move back with the cut.

However, you wouldn't see tsuba zeriai if you both had a 3 foot razor blade in your hands, would you :)

There's a nice Katayama-ryu technique where you proceed to push the kensen down with your left hand and cut your opponent's jugular from tsuba zeriai!

Obviously the use of shinai has shaped the kinds of hiki-waza that are used these days, but I don't think cutting while going backwards is incompatible with the use of a real sword.

Hamish

[hamish]

Plus, If your opponent has a strong center, he/she doesn't need to care about any Hiki-waza you made because his/her Shinai tip is on your Tsuki already

You've only got a problem if you choose to go back along that line, if you go off at an angle and strike, you should get a very clear point.

[hamish]

Mingshi: Where should your Zanshin go? (I need some advice too because for most of the Hiki-do I made... I went Hasso for zanshin

Your shinai shouldn't move too far from the position it strikes the do (before returning to chudan), in particular, don't let the hassuji (blade angle) change, as the shinpan will often look at that to decide whether it was a valid strike or not.

[Charlie]

Yeah, I mean, I am always told, and tell my kohei, that you should either be at maai, going forward, or going backward, never in between resting or whatever. If you're at tsuba-zerai, you can't just hang out there, you've got to take your shot. This comes out in kakari-geiko, when you're going all out - you should either be attacking forward or attacking backward.

[mingshi]

Thank you Hamish. Your explaination make more sense.

Okay, so cut while stepping back is effective. However, why would anyone holding a sword be in that situation? I can understand that for Naginata... but a sword? The Tsuba would have been cut in half! I should have said a "cut-while-stepping-back" from Tsuba-zeriai is an invention of modern Kendo.

BTW, is a Hiki-Tsuki valid too? (Sort of like the one in Kendo Kata #7)

[kendokamax]

Hiki tsuki? :eek:

is that humanly possible?

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by kendokamax
"I am Doka , Ken Doka."

No you're not, I am.

Richard

[kendokamax]

but.....

many ppl can have the same name....right?

[gszab]

I practice hiki waza frequently during ji geiko. My favorit method to do space for a hiki men is to do so if you cut a hiki dou, then after it hit a hiki men fast :) it usually works, the opponent will pull down his shinai to parry the dou.
But off course there are the other methods mentioned above.

[Dobedog]

I like to use hiki-waza sporadically from tsuba zeriai or tai atari so that my opponent has to wonder if it is coming or not. However, like many of you have noted, I've never scored with it even when I thought I had a clean cut. I've concluded that I don't understand the foot work necessary. I've been told I need an expert to walk me through it, as it is hard to describe in words, but could some here give it a try?

I've guessed at two ways: 1) push back per normal with the right foot (toes/ball), shift weight to left foot and then "stomp" with the right foot as I snap right foot back again, simultaneously contacting the target with the shinai; and/or
2) push out of tsuba zeriai with a little "jump" backward like in chiauga (sp- sorry)- pushing off with the right foot, but then land with a "stomp" of the right foot slightly before the left foot, simultaneously contacting the target with the shinai.

I don't think think I've got it and would enjoy some help.

Dobedog

[KhawMengLee]

No expert myself but my 2nd Sensei, Kazu san ex[lained to us that when we move into tai atari our stance should be a bit wider(eg. back left foot a bit further back) to ave balance and to be able to stomp the right foot with the strike.

[Dobedog]

Shugyosha-san,
Thank you for your reply. So, do you mean that in backing out of tai atari, the left foot stays firm on the ground and you push back out of tai atari with arms & maybe a bit of right foot, and you then "stomp" the right foot, simultaneously contacting the target. Thus, at the time of the cut, your feet would be no further back than your left foot was in tai atari. Is this your meaning?

Thank you,
Dobedog

[KhawMengLee]

yep, I think that as what Kazu san was trying to say. The push out you give each other in tai atari may help to add momentum.
At the moment I am still trying to master this.

I keep trying to jump back or push back with my right foot and stomp at the same time. So I end up jumping back instead of stomping and moving back.


PEACE
MENG

[samurai999]

Will will will, you still can't score with hiki men? :P j/k

Anyways, I love this one. It is a hard one to get with the shimpan. The strike has to be solid. Then you need to coordinate that with your fumikomi. When you zanshin after the hit, your shinai is pointing "backwards" with hands and forearms above your head. When you do that, you should be scooting out of the opponents ideal striking distance as soon as possible so he can't come back and strike you.

Tim

[samurai999]

Whoa. missed the post with "hiki-tsuki??". Thats pretty funny. :D We joked around with that before one of our practices started. (ie how would we do that if there was such a move?) Theres only hiki do, men and kote...

Tim

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by JSchmidt
"2) Where should your Zanshin go?"


Jakob asks about zanshin.

Well - it needs to be 200% intensity, not the usual 120% zanshin for a forward tavelling cut.

The kensen should be pointing up as in jodan.

The arms should be fully extended up and slightly back, even more than you are already thinking - like a really high jodan where you are pointing your shinai at the sky.

Put that all together to attempt to express zanshin with self belief.

Richard

[Kendoboy]

I know I'm a beginner but I'm going to make a wild guess. tell me what you think.

1) move backwards (and slightly shove opponent) from tsubazeriai like you are doing haya suburi (is that right? the for/back/for/backward shuffle), but with a BIG step.
2) as your left foot goes back, strike down with shinai/foot.
3) continue movement backwards (same movement) with shinai on men for one step, then raise it for a couple more steps.
4) this way, you are always in the proper stance, and can even move side to side to avoid attacks, while keeping the shinai raised to score the point, AND if it doesn't work, just do the forward moving part of haya suburi (again, is that right?) and go back into tsubazeriai, so you can try something else.

What do you think?

[Kendoboy]

oops no 2 is unclear. meant to say strike down with the shinai/RIGHT foot.

[Confound]

Personally, i've never seen a hiki-tsuki, and I hope to never see one. If i do see it, i'll be hopping mad, because it's highly likely that i'll be on the receiving end. no thank you!

c

[Kendoboy]

SO....

Is that how you are supposed to do it?

[Canadiankendoka]

Kendoboy:
I think you have it pretty down packed, but I also think that trying to break down hiki waza in steps is not always the best idea. For instance, when I do hiki men, I slide my shinai slowly away from my opponent's men, and when I feel that the timing is right, I hit men/back up and then keep my shinai raised in the air in the way Kendoka described. This is one way of doing it, others have their own way.
I think it's important to do what feels right, and as with anything, this comes with practice.
Distance in hiki waza is key. You have to be quick enough to move back and hit at the same time.

On a related note, an interesting technique is doing hiki men and then, when your opponent blocks, go forward and attack his kote...

Does anyone have any other good hiki combinations?

[alexpollijr]

Well, yes.

Some people tend to strike hiki men and go hopping backwards with the shinai raised even if the strike was blocked or dodged. Run after then and strike migi or gyaku do. Very efficient against blockers also.

[kendokamax]

hiki kote

going back with a good range for men
then men uchi

i never was able to do that technique correctly! but trying sometimes.

but with these kind of techniques not really good for getting ippon
however fun

[ben]

Was shown this very effective waza vs hikikote - Slightly different to waza described by Alex above - in response to hikikote by opponent strike men strongly going forwards. But not so much with the feeling of "running after" but rather cutting them before they can express zanshin at all. Reply with the same speed as with very fast kote-men. If they have moved away from you at all it is already too late.

b