Now Priceless page whit two first series of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu katas videos!!!

[Akira23]

The page is japanese if you don't have the sotfware to see it in your computer, it will show a bunch of rear simbols, the quility of the videos is not so good but you can still apriciate the katas pretty good.


http://www.takubo.net/iai/

[happogiri]

Thank You!
Where are you from Akira23?

EDIT: Oh, videos are in .mpeg format, no additional software/codecs needed, just some basic player.

[chidokan]

a little different to how I do mae, but I have seen this way done before...As usual I just get a load of rubbish when I use Babel fish translator, so does anyone know the dojo and style or the guy doing the demo?

[roar]

a little different to how I do mae, but I have seen this way done before...As usual I just get a load of rubbish when I use Babel fish translator, so does anyone know the dojo and style or the guy doing the demo?


I do not think the standard is too impressive. I saw four different clips, and I think the sword control is questionable in all. Tenouchi is so and so. In
tsukekomi, when he goes back to jodan, he just tears it back so the kissaki bobs up and down. zanshin?
But then, I am just a lowly msr guy, humbly glancing at the infallable jikiden.
It is good enough to do a rough comparison with msr though, so I do appreciate the clips. :wink:

[chidokan]

it all depends on his standard... I also thought maybe no more than 5 years training at max...it appears quick with poor timing, but that could be the video format and low res. Personally I prefer to watch older people with a lot of experience, but there again I have gone over and seen the best...it sort of spoils it in a way...

[roar]

It can be very misguiding to watch small movie-clips, thats true. I think I recognize something that I struggled with myself for 6 years, using a big bugger of a sword it is just too hard to do sharp, soft and convincing techniques. That bobbing movement at the end of kirioroshi is really a killer, a show-killer
Take 5 inches of his sword and tell him to be fast but not busy, and he would make a far more convincing iai-appearance. In my honest opinion.
But then, Ive heard that some jikiden-people use veery big swords. Perhaps he is from that "cutting-crew"

:)

[chidokan]

its quite possible....we need the dojo and the style for definite! Must admit Ive never come across MJER guys who use longer swords although there does seem to be some in the States...might ask a question on E-Budo and cause some trouble.... :smiley:
My teachers preference (and the guys in Kochi) is to use slightly shorter swords, ie at 6' 0" I would use a 2.4, with small tsuba also.This is a little bit bigger than a wakazashi tsuba but nowhere near as big as what I would call a standard size one on my iaito.

A thought... we havent just had a go at one of the forum members who is now keeping a low profile so we dig ourselves into a big hole here are we? :wink:

[roar]

I mean no offence, I think the clips are much better than most of what I have seen on the net, and I claim absolutely no authority in a style I do not practise. I think it is actually rude of me to comment, it must be the time spent on e-budo that has dulled my social sensitivities. ;)
I would like to see the oku-iai as well for some general comparison, but then; oku is oku. I guess I will have to peek in at a jikiden-seminar. Watch out for a lurking dork with a foreign accent.




:alien:







I still think the sword is too big. Haha

[chidokan]

must be someone out there who can give us a clue who this is....

You are more than welcome to lurk round my dojo when I have my teacher over in the UK in early September for a week...not that you'll get away with not training if he spots you. :devious: If you know Pasi Hellsten or Arne Oster from your neck of the woods they go home with headaches... :smiley:

[roar]

Actually, I was going to GB this weekend for iai, but my car broke down, and the money that I was going to spend on smooth bitter had to enter a grinning mechanics pockets instead.
Just curious: Mr Hamilton, you said that you did mae different; some differences may come from different understanding and interpretation of riai, and some differences from experience of course.

During furikaburi, is it usual in mjer not to close in on teki, but just do nukitsuke and kirioroshi from the same spot? In chiburi, do you drop kissaki as low as in the clip? I have seen several mjer people do that, is that the overall norm?

[chidokan]

I move roughly 2-2 1/2 metres forward during the nukitsuke and kirioroshi...but I need to work harder and go further. This would be standard for the MJER style I practise, and I have quite a lot of old videos showing some teachers nearly leaping forward, their left knee about 1/3 metre off the ground, right foot about 1/2 metre off.
For chiburui I know of three ways. One is seitei, where kissaki goes high and stays high until the sword goes out at say an angle of 45 degrees to front. second is my usual way, similar to a salute with kissaki slightly low,angle about 30 degrees, and the third 'old' way of MJER that drops the kissaki low, keeps it low and finishes very close to the body, say an angle of 10 degrees in comparison to seitei. If you think about it, if there was blood on the blade, in seitei it would run up towards the tsuka until the sword was going forward and down, the other two the blood runs towards the kissaki. Makes sense I suppose...

[roar]

I move roughly 2-2 1/2 metres forward during the nukitsuke and kirioroshi...but I need to work harder and go further. This would be standard for the MJER style I practise, and I have quite a lot of old videos showing some teachers nearly leaping forward, their left knee about 1/3 metre off the ground, right foot about 1/2 metre off.
For chiburui I know of three ways. One is seitei, where kissaki goes high and stays high until the sword goes out at say an angle of 45 degrees to front. second is my usual way, similar to a salute with kissaki slightly low,angle about 30 degrees, and the third 'old' way of MJER that drops the kissaki low, keeps it low and finishes very close to the body, say an angle of 10 degrees in comparison to seitei. If you think about it, if there was blood on the blade, in seitei it would run up towards the tsuka until the sword was going forward and down, the other two the blood runs towards the kissaki. Makes sense I suppose...

That is quite a stretch, I have never tried to measure the distance i "travel" during ipponme shohatto in msr shoden. I did a quick check on the floor of my working-room two minutes ago, and if the point of reference is my hara, it is moved approximately 180-200 cm forward, if I do seme on 1. nukitsuke 2 furikaburi. 3. kirioroshi. Sometimes I dont move on the last cut. It all depends.


Nice explanation on chiburui, I have not heard the running blood explanation.
Seitei-chiburi is beginner-chiburui, so some parts of the kata has been changed from its koryu-origin for security-issues, I guess.
I try to stick to 30-45 degrees in both seitei and koryu, and I try to have a continous flow with a slow and slightly accelrating speed that will prevent the blood from trickling into the tsuka anyhow. Well, if there was any blood then. :confused2

:)

[chidokan]

I forgot to say there are two speeds in chiburui as well, a bit like cutting, where you are relaxed until the blade hits the target, then apply tension. I apply tension during the sweep approximately as it passes my left knee.

[Scott Irey]

its quite possible....we need the dojo and the style for definite! Must admit Ive never come across MJER guys who use longer swords although there does seem to be some in the States...might ask a question on E-Budo and cause some trouble.... :smiley:
My teachers preference (and the guys in Kochi) is to use slightly shorter swords, ie at 6' 0" I would use a 2.4, with small tsuba also.This is a little bit bigger than a wakazashi tsuba but nowhere near as big as what I would call a standard size one on my iaito.

Well since you didn't ask the question or even attempt to cause any trouble over on E-budo I came over here to answer it for you... I might even stir up some trouble :)

The group you are thinking of in the U.S. is probably the Komei-juku. They use exceptionally long-heavy swords. In fact some branches of MJER do use bigger swords, but none quite so big as the guys in the Komei-juku, and none I have seen connected to the ZNKR. The swords that the Komei-juku use appear to be the invention of Sekiguchi Komei, the head of the Komei-juku.

Prior to Oe Masamichi large swords where far more common among practitioners of Tosa iai. His preference for shorter swords is why today we see most MJER folks practicing with shorter swords. That being said, his "shorter" sword was 2.4.5 shaku if memory serves me correctly...that was still longer than what was legally allowed at the time.

The group I belong to in Japan also uses what would be considered longer, heavier swords by most MJER as well as MSR practitioners. I am 5'8" and generally practice with a 2.4.5 shaku sword but will quite often practice with one that is 2.5.5 in length. We also generally use shinken with no bohi. The combination of extra length and no bohi certainly makes the task of controlling the tip a little more difficult at first, but is not really an issue once you are used to it.

Watching the gentleman in the mpg, it would be my guess he is using not only an obvioulsy longer sword than usual but judging by the little bobs at the end of his cuts and the very quiet tachi-kaze, his sword also lacks a bohi.

As to his waza, I see a lot of elements that appear in Seito-kai (ZNIR) MJER waza. But enough differences that it is most certainly not Seito-kai and not enough "weird" differences to make it as obscure as what I practice. I would also venture to guess that based on the timing he uses and the obvious emphasis on speed that whatever line it is they would seem to focus more on pragmatic iai than on performance iai.

Just my two cents.

[Scott Irey]

Just did a little more looking around his web-site. His name is Takubo Ryutaro he is a 4th dan in MJER, he is a production engineer and seems to be big in Cooper Minis as well as cats...go figure. I could not however find out which organization he belongs to... I may have to have the more qualified member of the household take a look and see if she can find his organizations name.

[chidokan]

Hi Scott, been away for a few days so havent had the chance to cause trouble. :)
I also use a shinken with no Bo hi and so do most of the guys I practise with, although to be honest most of us buy what we like, rather than go for a particular style.
I am particularly interested in history and general information around MJER at the moment due to writing a book on it...and I keep on coming across discrepancies bewteen the various sources I have. This is a typical one actually, you spot subtleties in style dfference, that may be down to either, say, lack of understanding due to low grade, a personal preference due to high grade, a local dojo preference etc. Not that I am saying anything is wrong, just that its hard to determine what is going on. I think the best thing I heard was that you should not expreess an opinion on a video as you do not know what the guy is thinking when doing the waza, ie where tekki is,etc.
My own teacher has a preference for small tsuba which gives him a better initial 'right hand on' at nukitsuke, something you would not spot if watching a video.
Your comments on swords has made me look at a photo I have of Oe Masamichi, and I would agree the sword is long compared to present day use. Wonder how much is down to iaito manufactures doing a standard length production blade.....there were a lot of Kanefusa blades in the UK about 20 years ago all at 2.45, so everyone at the time bought these irrespective of their height....
More questions for my next visit to 'the Mecca'...which school you with over there BTW?

[gsx1100s]

This has been a most informative discussion. for a beginner ir was very interesting to see the banter between more experienced forum members.

thanks again

Michael

[roar]

[QUOTE=Scott Irey

Watching the gentleman in the mpg, it would be my guess he is using not only an obvioulsy longer sword than usual but judging by the little bobs at the end of his cuts and the very quiet tachi-kaze, his sword also lacks a bohi.

[/QUOTE]

If you watch makko (and listen), you will hear a clear tachi-kaze. In yaegaki, there is tachikaze on the first cut, but not the second. I guess he switched swords in the middle of the kata. ;)

[chidokan]

GSX,
the more you practise the more questions you hear asked and the deeper the discussions, especially around technical interpretations and timing. I am finding the history of the school particularly interesting at the moment as for some reason I cant get any straight answers to some simple(to me anyway!) questions. One of the problems is that not everyone rejoined the Butokukai after the war due to its military/war association, and you had the ZNIR/ZNKR etc formed. As you would expect, some really good people joined each one, each with their own little foibles on how to do it, which explains some of the odd variations from the norm each student sees when he sees other teachers.
There are quite a few MJER members on the board, I reckon it would be good fun for us all to get together sometime and compare notes as it were.
I'm off to Japan shortly to get some answers (you may now all turn green with envy.. :smiley: :smiley: ) to some of the questions I have...and no doubt after I have those answers there will be more questions....