In which they failed, we will succeed

[mingshi]

Why would someone fail their Shinsa?

Has anyone, or anyone you know, had this kind of experience?
I would like to read some stories... and learn all the lessons behind them.

Anything from Kyu grades to 8th Dan will do. And thanks for sharing! :glasses:

[Simon Chien]

Hi mingshi,

One of my sempai told me that a 7 dan failed the 8 dan Shinsa in Japan because his do string ( lower ones ) got loose during keigo. He did very good but finally he did not pass.

The lower strings of do get loose easily and you can tighten them , in my experience, by pull once more by either side after you pull the string by end.

Another one told me that you can make the strings wet by water after tighten them so that they do'nt get loose easily during keigo. Do'nt know if it works 'cause never try that !

[KhawMengLee]

hmmmnnn...at my grading one of the guys going for ikkyu failed because his footwork was out. Actually, most of us who were watching felt that he a bit off. His back foot was splayed and his cuts were on the mengane not the men. If we could pick it up, just think what the gradiong panel saw.

Heh...one of the judges said (off the side) "maybe if he kiaid louder...."

Also a senior told me about one of how one of our instructors failed his Godan exam. During the grading shiai he was scoring most of the points but the judges felt he was not initiating the attacks, just countering them.

Any comments from the Godans here?

MENG

[GMason]

Mengshi,

Ask me in a month's time I will tell you why, when I've taken my Nidan in London.:eek:

[Jerry Wellbrock]

Just a thought about promotional exams....they are just that...promotional exams....this is a different way to think about it.....you don't fail a promotional exam you just may not be promoted on that particular day and if you learn from the experience then you will return to be promoted on a future day....often when we look at our results as a pass or fail then we often see ourself as a failure....this could not be further from the case...just the mere fact that you have prepared for an examination and your instructor encouraged you and felt you where ready...shows you to be a sucess in kendo....try not place to much emphasis on the results of one day.....it is only that...just one day....and you have the rest of your life to train in kendo to follow the path.....it is the journey that is the reward not the destination.....:old_man:

[AlexM]

I've heard the tale of one person who tried for ikkyu and failed. Apparently he made a mistake during the kata portion of the exam and was so frustrated that he tossed his bokuto to the floor. Needless to say that it was not the right reaction.
In other words, you really had to screw up in order to fail, plus you had to show it.

[mingshi]

Originally posted by Jerry Wellbrock
.....you don't fail a promotional exam you just may not be promoted on that particular day ....

Jerry:
Well, does that mean if you've passed on that day, you may just be promoted on that particular day? (or is that the usual way for you to console people...? :( )

AlexM:
Wowowow!!! Tossing bokuto on the floor in front of the judging panel?! That guy would have been banned for Kendo for the rest of his life!!!
I thought you've a 2nd chance in Kata? (if you did the wrong move you shouldn't carry on and ignore it right?)

Meng:
Question -- so if you're supposed to show Oji-waza, how can you show it without "not initiating attacts"?
I only know that in Shinsa you're not fighting for points but to "demonstrate you can score points". Which sometimes can be quite confusing...

Gareth:
My name is MING-Shi or Jenny and please stop mis-spelling it! ARrrrr~~

[AlexM]

Mingshi,
You're absolutely right. You're allowed a set number of mistakes in kata depending on the level your grading for (can't remember the exact number and this is just for Canada). That's if the judging panel notices the mistake(s) (they can't look at everything all the time). They tell us that if you just keep going the judges probably won't notice and they only take in to account glaring errors not "detail" stuff.
My jaw dropped when I heard this anecdote before grading for ikkyu (part of the lesson on what NOT to do). The guy did pick up his bokuto and continue but the sun had already set on his grading (poetic mood today...). Haven't looked into lifetime bans on kendo though (interesting concept).

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by Simon Chien
Hi mingshi,

One of my sempai told me that a 7 dan failed the 8 dan Shinsa in Japan because his do string ( lower ones ) got loose during keigo. He did very good but finally he did not pass.



Simon, I think you will need to understand something. To take the 8th dna exam, they will need to be almost ..... "Perfect " (not sure what is a better word to use), in every aspect of things.
When in a Shinsa, Aspect like clothing, boguo strings, Men, and protocol, everything has to be perfect. One little twitch, you can kiss the 8th dan Shinsa goodbye. For your senpai (or shoudl be sensei) to let the do string loose, its just can't be helped, or pure bad luck... And you do realise, these panel of judges of 8th dan, judging those Shinsa, they will expect all these to be proper as well.

[JSchmidt]

"Question -- so if you're supposed to show Oji-waza, how can you show it without "not initiating attacts"?"

You can show that you are initiating it, by deliberate luring the opponent into a specific cut.
If you are just reacting to the opponent, it wont be good enough...you have to show some initiative.

Jakob

[Dobedog]

Alex,

Excellent initial response. I've heard of training in martial arts as climbing a mountain with, in truth, no top. Thus we always try to climb, looking up to those who've gone before to see if we can learn something to make our climb personally more successful/fruitful/rewarding. Thus, it is not for the one-day exam that we do kendo, put rather for the enrichment it gives us in our daily lives and the enjoyment of each experience at the dojo, personal practice, tournament, or shinsa. Yes, we have the one-day result to gage our present level and we know if we did our best, or if we did better/worse than our average. But it is just that - we are no better (and no worse) than we are at the present moment's performance, and it is all just fine, IF we are still climbing.
Best advice I always give is, o.k. be a little nervous for shinsa, but not too much - be yourself, relax so you don't blow it with over anxiousness, and HAVE SOME FUN. Kendo it just plain exciting.
Dobedog

[Dobedog]

Oji-waza
A rokudan once said to not "sit back" and wait on opponent's attack so you can launch oji-waza. He said, instead, be intent on attacking (not thinking on oji-waza) and pressuring so the opponent is constantly fearing the impending attack, so that his own positive attacks will be "desparate" or reactionary. This then opens opportunity to do successful oji-waza. - as a trained, natural response to the "set-up" attack you "made" your opponent throw.
I also heard that for above san-dan you must not only demonstrate oji-waza technique (a natural part of your kendo by then), but more deeply, you must demo application of direct/indirect seme to cause opponent to react into leaving an opening or throwing a poor or anticipated attack, and then to attack into the opportunity you affirmatively created. Seems the Sensei trying for godan did fine oji-waza when opponent initiated attacks, but that the Examiners did not see enough of those opportunities created by his own seme.

[KhawMengLee]

yup, I think thats what my senior was explaining.

[Hyaku]

I think its safe to say that the reason most people fail the start of a dan trail they are simply just not ready for that step up. That is except for perhaps some real screwup.

A lot in Japan fail on the kata. But then again as they perhaps had not done any except for a few hours before the grading that's understandable.

As for higher grades you must dress well get up from sonkyo and get stuck in. Other wise that yellow flag will go up quickly.

Of course a loose himo will fail. It seems unreasonable that someone who has been doing Kendo almost daily for 50 odd years or more is going to have a loose himo at a grading. I never treat myself to anything new before a demo etc. I like to wear things in a bit. New good quality men himo sometimes work loose.

The grading is base on recognition of the level you have achieved. Not on what you can do that particular day. For sure with all the nervousness it's only the things that you have learned to do naturally that will show through.

Another point I would really like to make though is we want to see what people can do at gradings, not what they can't do. That comes later

Hyaku

[Confound]

Hyaku,

i'm getting a little worried about my shodan rgading in november, specifically the written part. I can;t write kanji, and there are some thoughts or tenses or conditions that I cannot express in Japanese. I've been told that it's relatively short and easy, but this is from a group of semi-drunken old men of 5th dan and above.

The practical component doesn't worry me. I've been practicing kata steadily, and I have confidence in the cleanliness of my basic waza (except nuki dou, I'm not happy with that yet, and kaeshi waza, they always end up as suriyage waza instead, i'm just too lazy to use a kaeshi waza.)

any advice about the written component?

c

[JSchmidt]

I understand (from other people doing gradings in Japan), that you can answer the questions in English.
Alternativly, there's a book about gradings (In japanese), which have standard answers to all the questions :)

Jakob

[Hyaku]

Hello Confound

Isnt the Ikyu the same as the Shodan grade? Wasnt one of the reasons that Ikyu was instituted was to give people an idea of what was required for Shodan?

After sonkyo get up straight and try to move in and take control. Wedge that shinai into a relaxed but strong chudan. so that its come off when when you hit her. Not when they try to hit you! I nice clean cut men with good ki ken tai ichi is whats required. Don't mess about trying fancy stuff. NO hikiwaza. Expertise is waza is not a requirement for shodan.

The message should have got through that there is a gaijin taking shodan who doesnt know much Japanese. If there isnt play dumb and someone will help. Its the practical test that counts.

Name the parts of a shinai and describe for example Uchidachi's move in kata no 3 etc. shouldnt be too difficult.

Hyaku

[Kendoboy]

jeeez! I'm getting nervous just reading this stuff, and My Ikkyu is months away!

[Confound]

Kendoboy,

don't be too upset. you're taking it in your own language. I'm stuck doing it in Japanese. bleh.

c

[Ares2907]

Wouldn't worry about it too much Confound.
As long as you know your shit, you should be able to do it in any language.
When a friend of mine and I did our sandan in Chiba, the only potential hassle was writing the essay part - neither of us were/are great with written Japanese. Essentially one of the panel had a chat with a mutual acquaintance of ours and said something to the effect of 'they seem to know their stuff, how's their theory?'
mutual acquaintance responded positively and hey presto sandan was awarded.
I also asked my iai sensei for help with the written portion of the seitei shodan test. He sat down, wrote two and a half pages and handed it to me saying 'do you think this will be good enough?'

It's not what you know, it's who you know.
. . .
apparently.
A

[gill]

The important thing with gradings is to learn from them - whether you pass or fail - and virtually everyone fails sometime. For me, Sandan was a complete brick wall, which I failed too many times than I dare mention here!!! Up until then I had passed eveything first time.

The basic reason was that I was not ready, and I didn't really understand what I should be doing. There were so many people giving me advice on what I should do, and every time i was trying to do something different. When I did pass, it was because I did MY kendo - not what everyone was telling me to do.

You would have thought I had learnt my lesson - but when my next grading came up I did exactly the same thing. I tried to do what everyone was telling me I should be doing, and I failed. When I went out and did my thing, I passed.

The best piece of advice I can give is to do your own kendo - if it is right, you will pass, if it is not, you will be given advice on what you are doing wrong - not what you did wrong on the day - then you need to go away and work on it. You do not suddenly become the grade you are going for on that day - you are already that grade. The exam just confirms it.

One more thing. Don't forget to smile!!!! :D

Gill (no more gradings for 4 years - hurrahhhh!) :)

[reicheru]

I don't know how common this is, but I got my shodan here in Japan this summer without taking any written test. You could opt out of that part by going instead to a lecture/info session, at which they gave us a booklet of information and several sensei talked at us for a while. Of course, I really didn't understand very much of the lecture, so I felt a bit like I cheated -- I was also a bit disappointed that I didn't have to take the test, 'cause I did spend a while studying for it and trying to think of ways to formulate answers in my very basic Japanese.

Confound -- check if you can get an English translation. Your sensei may never have heard of such a thing, but if they contact bigger cities like Tokyo they might be able to come up with something. Failing that, see if they'll let you bring along a translator. Failing that, at least get someone to write furigana above all the kanji in the questions, and presumably it won't matter much if your responses contain few kanji and many grammatical errors, as long as the content is what they want...

BTW, in case you're thinking that it must have been really easy to pass if there was no written test, let me assure you that a fair number of people did fail... I think that, as mentioned in earlier posts, the kata was what got most people.

Rachel

[Confound]

I'm actually not to 'unconfident' about the written section, it's just the longer questions, and sanbohnme t hat are bothering me.

c

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by Confound
... i'm getting a little worried about my shodan rgading in november, specifically the written part. I can;t write kanji...

You are having a little trouble with English as well, it appears.

[ben]

When I went for nidan in Kagoshima we all (the 150 chugakusei and I) had the choice of doing the written test or attending a week of remedial kata classes. Naturally I opted for the kata. Thing is, so did the chugakusei. And boy, did they need it!

b

[kendokamax]

why is everyone so excited with getting shodan.

for me NOW the only reason to get it is for participing in shodan and up for the tournaments..

after that i will try to get my grade the fastest possible.

hey i wonder ?

what grades do you need to go to japan to get? I think it<s only the case for hachidan? am i wrong?

Anyway.. before I thought of doing all my grading (nidan and up) in japan because it would be more hmmm rewarding?? but aftter some reflextion I thought it would be nice to only get these grades in my home country.

why?? maybe a way to show that even if all the best and grand master are in japan maybe sometimes we should not always relly on them for grades?
What i want to say is that maybe I should try to trust my own federation to grade me with the same/or almost the same critical view...

I dont know if you understand what i<m trying to say ......lol

anyway i still have a lot of time to think about these things..

first must make sure to pass shodan next month ..

kata 4-5?? ish been a while....

hahahha

[Nishi]

My teacher told me that when he started kendo, it took him 4 attempts at ikkyu, and that it was only failing that made him decide that he wanted to do kendo succesfully...this determenation has stayed with him until today.
_____________________________________________
I benifet from his experience in every way.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Originally posted by kendokamax
why is everyone so excited with getting shodan.
Shodan opens up some doors for you. You'll get a lot of "you were doing it this way, now the target is different so do it this other way" stuff from your instructors.
what grades do you need to go to japan to get? I think it<s only the case for hachidan? am i wrong?
In Canada we grade up to/including nanadan. But some people go to Japan for nanadan anyways.
Anyway.. before I thought of doing all my grading (nidan and up) in japan because it would be more hmmm rewarding?? but aftter some reflextion I thought it would be nice to only get these grades in my home country.
The Canadian ranks are comparible to the Japanese ones.
first must make sure to pass shodan next month ..

kata 4-5?? ish been a while....
Tachi 1-5.

[kendokamax]

thanks for the reply

1-3 is ok for me but i almost never practiced 4-5

our dojo is kinda lazy on learning kata (we do it like 1 hour per week)

anyway i shouldnt be to stressed out for shodan since they let pass anyone who can hold a shinai ok in Canada.. I have seen some shodan here play and wanted to cry.....

[Hagakure]

Originally posted by Confound
I'm actually not to 'unconfident' about the written section, it's just the longer questions, and sanbohnme t hat are bothering me.

c

Sanbonme can be a pain. I haven't tested for Ikkyu yet, I just got Nikyu, but I did katas with another kendoka in my dojo to help prepare him for his Ikkyu test. I have trouble doing uchidachi in sanbonme. Right after shidachi's last attack I always put my kensen in the wrong place. I really have to clean it up before my test.

[Raiza]

kendokamax wrote:

anyway i shouldnt be to stressed out for shodan since they let pass anyone who can hold a shinai ok in Canada.. I have seen some shodan here play and wanted to cry.....

Good, so someday I'll have a hope of getting shodan...whee. Run for your lives. :p

Raiza

[kendokamax]

shodan wasnt so hard to get after all..
I will try to get nidan in japan...1 year is ok for the wait over there right?

[Ares2907]

Yes, although Chiba prefecture is renowned for tough gradings ;)

[nodachi]

Aw... crap!

:)

[kendokamax]

aw.....tabarn....