Coordination..

[tantadi]

As a beginner, I read somewhere that one should move your feet as the left hand passes the eye..and it works for me, my cut then coordinates with the back foot landing in the step. But it feels a bit slow? and when I am supposed to do a cut going forward and the one going backward, I sort of loose it..any tips?

And another question, when your supposed to hit at the side at the men; you lift the shinai straight back, and then point it at the target..but should I try to make the cutting movement forward as straight as I can, and add the twist in the direction at the very end of the cut, or what?

Kiriashi: Should each cut go back to kamae? so it is up, cut--lower the arms a bit, and then start over?

Hope you understand my english, it is not my native language.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Are you talking about suburi, or fumikomi-men? As a beginner, the timing is different. For suburi moving forward, usually you raise up with the right foot moving forward, then cut down with the left foot coming forward, so that your body motion and shinai motion stop at the same time. For fumikomi-men (the stomping one) you want the shinai to hit the target as the foot hits the ground. To do this, raise the shinai without moving your feet, then start swinging forward. When your left hand is eye level on the downswing, step forward. This is a starting point for the timing, and is necessary because as a beginner your swing is very slow - if you try to move forward while swinging up, your right foot is going to be early.

It seems like a contradiction to teach one timing for suburi and another for fumikomi men, but as you progress and your swing speed increases you'll find the timing is more similar than different.

[tantadi]

I'm talking about suburi...thanks for the explanation, and it is was nice to get the fumikomi advice, now I can practice that too :)

[DCPan]

And another question, when your supposed to hit at the side at the men; you lift the shinai straight back, and then point it at the target..but should I try to make the cutting movement forward as straight as I can, and add the twist in the direction at the very end of the cut, or what?


It is my view that you wouldn't add the twist in the direction at the very end of the cut because:

1. if you turn before you connect with the target, you increase the chance that you will "roll" the blade when you really try to cut something.

2. if you turn after you connect with the target, you can't.

3. If you turn after you exit the target, what's the point? :D


Kiriashi: Should each cut go back to kamae? so it is up, cut--lower the arms a bit, and then start over?


When you do complete kirikaeshi in bogu, it would be:

1. shomen (straight men) followed with tai-atari (body check)
2. 4 strokes forward (starting on your right (opponent's left))
3. 5 strokes backward (ending on your right (opponent's left))
4. Back to kamae & kamae distance
5. shomen, follow through with zanshin, kamae OR repeat 1 through 4 again before finish.

However, if you are not in bogu, it depends on what your sensei is trying to achieve. Doing tai-atari without kote is not comfortable...can jam fingers and stuff.

Your mileage may vary....

[jmarsten]

Are you talking about suburi, or fumikomi-men? As a beginner, the timing is different. For suburi moving forward, usually you raise up with the right foot moving forward, then cut down with the left foot coming forward, so that your body motion and shinai motion stop at the same time. For fumikomi-men (the stomping one) you want the shinai to hit the target as the foot hits the ground. To do this, raise the shinai without moving your feet, then start swinging forward. When your left hand is eye level on the downswing, step forward. This is a starting point for the timing, and is necessary because as a beginner your swing is very slow - if you try to move forward while swinging up, your right foot is going to be early.

It seems like a contradiction to teach one timing for suburi and another for fumikomi men, but as you progress and your swing speed increases you'll find the timing is more similar than different.
Neil,
I strongly recommend reading the above book. It completely changed my approch to teaching and my results with the beginning classes. I adopted several parts but in particular to this thread I adapted the step method to kendo.

[ctan]

Hi, Neil! I've always found your posts helpful and thoughtful. Thank you for them! I'm a little confused by your fumikomi men description though. At least, the way I learnt it went something like: (1) As you raise you shinai to left-fist-one-fist-from-forehead level, your right knee comes up, you take a (large) step foreward by moving your hips forward (keeping them level) and pushing off with the left foot; this is all done all at once, then, (2) as you stamp with your right foot, the shinai hits men, and your stamping straightens the body, which with the left foot pushing, gets the left foot back in place; again, all at once, and, finally, (3) use the momentum to slide out for around 5 steps and quickly turn to face your opponent in zanshin. I just wanted to get your take on this; am I practising incorrectly? Thanks so much!

[tantadi]

It is my view that you wouldn't add the twist in the direction at the very end of the cut because:

1. if you turn before you connect with the target, you increase the chance that you will "roll" the blade when you really try to cut something.

2. if you turn after you connect with the target, you can't.

3. If you turn after you exit the target, what's the point? :D

....
So the turn/twist of the blade starts as soon as the cut goes forward...and the trick must then not to start it as the blade goes backward (propellar movement that I've seen some guys do).

[Neil Gendzwill]

Neil,
I strongly recommend reading the above book. It completely changed my approch to teaching and my results with the beginning classes. I adopted several parts but in particular to this thread I adapted the step method to kendo.
I looked up Don't Shoot the Dog on Amazon, it's a dog-training book. Am I missing something here, or is this just a Seattle sense of humour?

[Neil Gendzwill]

(1) As you raise you shinai to left-fist-one-fist-from-forehead level, your right knee comes up, you take a (large) step foreward by moving your hips forward (keeping them level) and pushing off with the left foot;
Thinking about raising your knee usually results in too much up and down motion and also usually a leading-knee action. Think more about the left foot push and leading with your toes. You don't want the right foot more than an inch or two off the ground. Also, the timing you describe is more advanced. Most beginners will find that they are early with their foot if they time the step as you describe. However I've found this timing to be a very personal thing. I can only provide a starting point for someone, after that they need to find the timing themselves. Initially they only will have the timing for one distance, later they will learn to adjust for different distances and speeds of attack (IOW, maai).

[Anderzander]

When you do complete kirikaeshi in bogu, it would be:

1. shomen (straight men) followed with tai-atari (body check)
2. 4 strokes forward (starting on your right (opponent's left))
3. 5 strokes backward (ending on your right (opponent's left))
4. Back to kamae & kamae distance
5. shomen, follow through with zanshin, kamae OR repeat 1 through 4 again before finish.
Can anyone give me a good description of the backward stepping strokes? I struggle with those more than any.

Do you keep your hips square or do you have a twist?
At what point do you put weight back into the front leg to commence the next step?

Any help would be appreciated.
Steve

[DCPan]

I looked up Don't Shoot the Dog on Amazon, it's a dog-training book. Am I missing something here, or is this just a Seattle sense of humour?

I haven't read the book.

From what I can gather with the online reviews, it is a book on operant conditioning where you use positive reinforcement to built up the desired behaviors in steps rather than all at once.

So, in the same way that Kendo applies to life, how you motivate and encourage behaviors in your pet can be applied to your daily interactions with others.

The reference to B.F. Skinner in the book, however, is disturbing as for me personally, I just can't get over the idea that Skinner would put his own daughter in the Skinner's box.

I obviously wasn't a fan of "Walden II" :D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Can anyone give me a good description of the backward stepping strokes? I struggle with those more than any.

Do you keep your hips square or do you have a twist?
At what point do you put weight back into the front leg to commence the next step?


Keep your hips square. Step back with your left foot and raise the shinai at the same time. Cut down with the shinai and draw your right foot. Your shinai should make contact at the same time that your foot stops moving. The motion is the same as the backwards step in suburi, so you can practice going backwards (or forwards) without a partner. Once you have a partner, all you need to do is make sure the distance is right.

[DCPan]

So the turn/twist of the blade starts as soon as the cut goes forward...and the trick must then not to start it as the blade goes backward (propellar movement that I've seen some guys do).

Well, this is something I'm still thinking about, actually :D. So, you are not going to get a "this is it" response from me :D

If you watch the Toyama Ryu cutting videos, when the sword is swung over the head (in Jodan), the hands then kind of "set-up" the blade on the plane of the cut according to how the final entry should be, then comes down pretty much along that plane.

However, in execution, someone could watch that "set-up" and figure out the plane, and move aside accordingly.

From what I see in advanced kendo practitioners, before the down stroke, the sword is straight up in Jodan, then, as the sword comes up, the plane that it is travelling on "rolls" sort of on the point of balance.

So, rather than rolling on the axis of tip to handle which I interpreted as the twist that you are suggesting, this planar roll allows you to reacquire the target if the target changes...i.e. from hidari-men to gyaku-do. It also doesn't telegraph as much, IMHO :D

Again, I'm still working on it, so your mileage probably will vary :D

[DCPan]

From what I see in advanced kendo practitioners, before the down stroke, the sword is straight up in Jodan, then, as the sword comes up, the plane that it is travelling on "rolls" sort of on the point of balance.


Actually, I should have wrote the plane sort of "rolls" on the left fist. Otherwise, the left fist won't stay on the center line.

:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

Absolutely, raise straight up, cut with the angle, don't do helicopter-men.

[ctan]

Hi! Thanks for the advice, Neil. Actually, this is my "reference point" for good men; I stumbled acrossed it sometime back and have been looking at it before practices ever since:

http://digilander.iol.it/kendoliguria/movies/menpiccolo.mpg

It isn't big men, but in terms of timing, coordination, and posture, I was personally pretty impressed by what I saw. I also like the smooth transition; the flowing and even-timing, from strike to zanshin. I was wondering what others thought of the video. (Wish it were longer with more panned-out shots.)

[tantadi]

Hm.."planar roll"..I have to think about what that is...

But anyways, are there aesthetics included in cuts that go left/right? Do you need a visible swing to score a point?

@Ctan: The video clip: Why does he keep his hands raised after cutting? Is that something you do in keiko too? (There is probably an embarrassing simple answer..)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Actually, this is my "reference point" for good men; I stumbled acrossed it sometime back and have been looking at it before practices ever since: [snip]
It's OK, I guess. I wouldn't recommend beginners to look at it as it's a small men, with a very small step - he's already very close when he strikes the men. I'm also not much of a fan of the way his right knee leads his foot.

[Neil Gendzwill]

PS, here's a clip of a very nice small men. The camera angle is bad, though. It's from the Tozai Taikai:
http://www.kendo.or.jp/jpeg-mpeg/tozai-6sho-m.mpg

[ctan]

Hi, Tantadi! Well, at least in our practice, we are told that the right fist should end up around tsuki-level at the end of the men strike. Then, either go through to zanshi or pull-down quickly to around chest level for taiatari. I'm like 5'8" (i.e., pretty short!) so I tend to end up a little higher since my kendomates tend to be substantially taller. I do have to "reach" and "lift" a little to get past the men grill to the top of the men, and deep enough for clean datotsu.


Hi, Neil! Thanks for the clip! I can't really see from the angle of the camera, but it seems the attacker took a pretty small step there too, didn't he? I get your point about not leading with the right knee though; in the video you put up, he took his right foot up no more than a couple of inches. Nice clip!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Hi, Neil! Thanks for the clip! I can't really see from the angle of the camera, but it seems the attacker took a pretty small step there too, didn't he?
Yes, I didn't intend that clip to be instructional for beginners, either :)