Behaviour after being hit

[nollaig]

a bit of help would be appreciated on this point. Since I’m not Japanese a question of how to conduct ones self on the dojo floor came up.

One guy from another club has a habit of lashing out some wild strikes when he begins to get frustrated by another fighter. I was on the receiving end of one such badly aimed kote. It mashed my right thumb. I managed to suck up the pain the first time but when he did it again I had to stop. The pain was so bad I dropped to my knees and ripped off my kote to see had he broken my thumb.
Thankfully he hadn’t, all he had done was to drive my thumb nail into the flesh my finger ( I bite my nails and seem to have very strong finger nails!)

What a senior grade said to me afterwards “you shouldn’t be such a wimp when you take a knock in kendo you must keep going no matter what happens”

At the time I was trying to tie my shoe laces without using my right thumb so I told him where to shove his comment.

But the question was he right “suck it up and survive” or f##k this I’m hurt!!?

If I was in Japan what would be the socially correct thing to do?

if thery are any other small hints on social etiquette within the dojo that could be shared around please shout it out load
thanks
Nollaig

[Bleda]

Shiai or jikeiko? If its shiai its a competition and those things happen you should just try to suck it up and keep going. I am not saying if your thumb is shattered or you are in severe pain you shouldn't stop but most matches don't last that long anyways. If its jikeiko then i don't see the problem with stopping the fight if you get hurt. Perhaps dropping to your knees and ripping off the glove was a bit much but nonetheless i see nothing wrong with stopping it. I've personally stopped jikeiko before for injuries and such.

[litige]

When you think your thumb is broken,it's normal you try to see it ASP...

I've always been told that if I don't feel like continuing as to worsen(spl?) my case, to just stop.

[Old Warrior]

I am recently recovered from a BROKEN thumb. I do nito and when I raised the shoto to block a full force cut hit the tip of my thumb that extended under the tsuka. Although I did not know it at the time, it was fractured. The blood was welling up under the nail and the throbbing pain was intense. Now, I've survived kidney stones, a motorcycle crash that destroyed my knee and gall bladder surgery and I can state with certainty that the hit to my thumb hard was enough to stop me dead in my tracks. When I got whacked, I let out a sound of pain and had to stop. While I did not drop to my knees or whine - it hurt plenty.

I would never comment on someone else's reaction to pain. I was stoic because I didn't want to give my opponent the satisfaction of knowing he hurt me - but I still couldn't continue. But it's bad form to think you know how someone else should react to pain.

[Bleda]

Like i said before i mean if the pain is intense that you really can't go on of course you should stop the match but by the same token you really should try to control your reaction to the pain atleast a bit. I've had alot of things broken so i know it hurts terribly but you don't want to over react.

[litige]

always the little things that hurt the most....incarned nail....small toe on a corner.....hammer whack.....the nose.....precious thing cought up in the zipper....Tha COCCCCCYX

Those things stop my breathing quick....Your sempai musn't have experienced the Shinai-on-the-thumb-at-120kmhmore whack. The first reaction you get from seeing those things happening to other people is always the same..."Ouch, That hurts!"

[John W]

I reckon that if you are injured then you should stop.

If you continue to fight you could make the injury worse and who know's? it could get to the point where you may have to give up kendo due to the injury.

So it's hurt pride Vs Giving up kendo.

I know what I would rather choose.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Don't play macho games with your health. If you think you may be hurt, stop and check it out.

[Sepiraph]

a bit of help would be appreciated on this point. Since I’m not Japanese a question of how to conduct ones self on the dojo floor came up.

One guy from another club has a habit of lashing out some wild strikes when he begins to get frustrated by another fighter. I was on the receiving end of one such badly aimed kote.
If someone is hurt during sparring, the injured person should signal the other to stop the sparring.

Another important thing is that someone should teach this guy to do proper strike and not just strike at random body parts. Respect and proper temperance is important in Kendo.

[Shiro]

Another important thing is that someone should teach this guy to do proper strike and not just strike at random body parts. Respect and proper temperance is important in Kendo.

Even if it's a sempai, telling him he shouldn't hit like that is no exaggeration.

Besides, I think that hitting like that and being frustrated is way worse than stopping to check if everything is ok (though I agree you might have overacted a bit, but that would be the spur of the moment, I guess).

[iwatekenshi]

a bit of help would be appreciated on this point. Since I’m not Japanese a question of how to conduct ones self on the dojo floor came up.

One guy from another club has a habit of lashing out some wild strikes when he begins to get frustrated by another fighter. I was on the receiving end of one such badly aimed kote. It mashed my right thumb. I managed to suck up the pain the first time but when he did it again I had to stop. The pain was so bad I dropped to my knees and ripped off my kote to see had he broken my thumb.
Thankfully he hadn’t, all he had done was to drive my thumb nail into the flesh my finger ( I bite my nails and seem to have very strong finger nails!)

What a senior grade said to me afterwards “you shouldn’t be such a wimp when you take a knock in kendo you must keep going no matter what happens”

At the time I was trying to tie my shoe laces without using my right thumb so I told him where to shove his comment.

But the question was he right “suck it up and survive” or f##k this I’m hurt!!?

If I was in Japan what would be the socially correct thing to do?

if thery are any other small hints on social etiquette within the dojo that could be shared around please shout it out load
thanks
Nollaig
Yes and no. You should keep going no matter what happens but what is fundamentally wrong here is that he got frustrated and injured you. The point of keiko is completely missed.

This particular kendoist was from another dojo it seems, therefore a guest. His conduct should be of that standing. Just common sense I think. Would you want that guest to come back and bash more fingers? An apology during keiko would probably be more appropriate rather than you worrying about your own code of conduct. Was there even an apology? In Japan we often apologize gracefully if we made a mistake.

This hard hitter does not have his tenouchi down nor does he know anything about heijoshin. If he became frustrated then he lost the psychological battle in keiko. There, keiko should end and move on. A higher ranking teacher would pick up on this and either say thank you gracefully and move on or go into marathon uchikomi to tire the student out. Out of respect and honor the student would later say thank you and perhaps the teacher might even explain the reasons why he did what he did. The student would then think about that and reassess his keiko.

I think you did nothing wrong, maybe you went a little overboard but still your guest made all the wrong moves for being a guest. If that person nearly managed to bust your thumb then he should go re-evaluate his kendo. If I were your senior I would have taken a better look at your situation and would not have said what your senior said but rather speak words of encouragement.

[KhawMengLee]

Yo wassup Neol!

Haha, haven't seen u since WKC in Scotland. Dude, you're a pretty big lad so if this fella is playing rough I would give him a nice good smack and then tai atari his butt into the wall.

Or I would stop him for a second and point out the valid target areas and say "could you try harder to hit these places accurately?"(maybe he'll get embarrased and start doing proper kendo).

[Niels]

A guy in our dojo can't sit in seiza because of his ankle, dunno exactly what's up with it, anyway you might think that it's a big deal that you cant join in on the sensei ni rei part and what have you not.But our sensei just said

"If you can't do it,don't.We used to be tough,now we're wise"

Okay that was translated from Dutch so it sounds a little less cool in English.

--Niels

[dorkusxmaximus]

don't even practice if you're hurt. you're going to mess it up even more if you do.

[ctan]

I don't think you overreacted at all, personally (just my opinion though). I think it is perfectly natural to be concerned if one gets hurt, and to want to physically inspect the hurt area, assess it's severity, and see if it needs immediate treatment. I wouldn't personally care if someone in your dojo implied that you were "soft" or something. It's *your* body; they can take whatever risks they want with their own. The fact is, you don't do kendo for a living, you have a life outside of kendo, and you don't want to mess up your quality of life too severely. I'd prefer to let them call me a wimp in your situation.

I would, however, have politely signalled to the other kendoka (given that the sensei can't be everywhere and see everything all at once), that I thought he should go a bit easy. I'd also remind him (again politely) that you are *offering* him your body so he can train and get better; in return, he at least has to respect you enough to look out for your well-being. Also, you don't want him hurting your other kendomates, so you should probably check him there and then. The same reasoning applies to practice mates who don't look after their shinai, I think. We do kendo at some level to have fun (at least, I do!), and unsafe practice definitely isn't going to contribute to this, and is, frankly, unnecessary.

Again, just MHO.

[Danny Boy]

a bit of help would be appreciated on this point. Since I’m not Japanese a question of how to conduct ones self on the dojo floor came up.

SNIP SNIP SNIP
Nollaig


Yeah man, you did overreact, in fact you proved that you're just a big wimp pussy cat :P.

Seriously though, you did the right thing by stoping the fight, but you should have informed the guy what he did. Maybe instead of halting the fight right there and ripping off the kote, bowing out would be a better alternative.

Besides, we are doing kendo, and are practising...well how to kill in some ways (i hope this comment does not get misunderstood) and while i understand that sustaining an injury is one thing, if it happens, one still has to act with dignity that comes along with participating in kendo.

[septern]

Quote: "I dropped to my knees and ripped off my kote to see had he broken my thumb..........all he had done was to drive my thumb nail into the flesh my finger "

are you sure your grip is correct?
I can't see you you could be hit on the thumbnail - if you were holding it correctly, your thumb should have been protected by the tsuba - thats what it is for.
if you leave your thumb sticking out, of course you will be hit there

[Shogun97]

Well in your case I would say you were right stopping your training.
Sounds to me really painfull!
However not every hit you get is a cause to stop fighting...........Think about what would happen if everyone would do so!
In a reall fight (I do know there are hardly any) nobody woud bother!

[not-I]

are you sure your grip is correct?
I can't see you you could be hit on the thumbnail - if you were holding it correctly, your thumb should have been protected by the tsuba - thats what it is for.
if you leave your thumb sticking out, of course you will be hit there
Sure, but remember that the tsuba is not really that wide. Getting whacked on the thumb is not an uncommon phenomenon. True, it won't occur when you're in chudan, but sometimes does when raising to strike men or blocking a men-uchi, as in these cases the tip of your right thumb is exposed to the opponent. Obviously, it's a bad strike by your opponent and it hurts like hell, but these things happen.

As to the etiquette during ji-geiko, I think it's pretty simple. If you've been injured, or anything is wrong with your or your partner's shinai, bogu, (loose himo, etc.) you just raise one hand to signal "time out" and go deal with it, which is what i did when someone whacked my thumb a couple weeks ago.

It's a traditional Japanese attitude to maintain dignity even when hurt and not make a big show of it such as collapsing on the floor or howling, but as Old Warrior said, pain is subjective, and no one knows how others experience it. But in any case, it's just plain stupid to go on when you think something could be seriously wrong.

[Neil Gendzwill]

are you sure your grip is correct?
I can't see you you could be hit on the thumbnail - if you were holding it correctly, your thumb should have been protected by the tsuba - thats what it is for.
if you leave your thumb sticking out, of course you will be hit there
Naw, getting hit on the thumb is one of the most common injuries around. No bad technique required - if your hands are on the way up when he cuts, you can get hit on the thumb and the tsuba affords no protection. The kote make it harder to keep the thumb completely wrapped like it should be.

[Wout]

idd also if you try kaesi you can get hit on the inside', really their are numerous ways your thumb can be hit, also if you are a short person (short arms) and your tsuka is quite long the tsuba won't perfectly protect your thumb (only if you realy choke it the tsuba will perfectly protect (but then you gridp is wrong). Best is to stop the keiko and see what is the matter I guess (keiko means practice it doesn't mean selfmutiliation), no good doing kendo with a broken thumb? Also don't raise your hand when he strikes to ask for a time out, you'll brke more then just your thumb if you try to catch it.

[m_french]

As has been stated here previously there is definately a conclusion that you will have to make as to the extent of your injury, it's potential for further complications through continued practice or "just a flesh wound" ( to quote Monty Python). However that being said lets remember that kendo is a contact sport, we do hit eachother with sticks. There will always be a fellow kenshi who is not at the same level you are at on both ends of the spectrum. Just as your sempai did before you, it is now your turn.....if you can, "SUCK IT UP". While OW and others are correct in the fact that no one can judge your level of discomfort, hey this is kendo not checkers. Nothing is worse than a kenshi who stops practice every time someone hits them in the wrong spot. I have had some rather large contusions from errant hits just as I know there has been more than a few errant Dos or hammer like kotes on my part. it is part of the game. Yes we do "do this for fun" but that in itself should be the commentary....we let people hit us with bamboo (just like that guy in Singapore) for fun. And if someone continues to hit you incorrectly and does not seem to progress.....hey you are armed as well....as they say paybacks a @#$%.

[Karaken]

It's very simple ( in principle ). If it's just pain ( nothing broken or permanently damaged ), you suck it up like a man and go on.. If not ( your well neing is at risk ), then you stop ( no matter who says what ) and check or go to ER. However, the swinger ( clubber ) need to be taken care of by your sensei or sempai - they don't belong or need to be taught. I had to teach so many of them how to stop just below the target. If they don't learn after so many lessons - I'm sorry to say that I had to hit them harder till they soften up. Well that's a long story...

Center

[nollaig]

Just like to a couple of things clear.
I didn't just drop to my knees and rip my kote off
I bowed quickly and knelt down to see what was wrong

Having practiced judo for over 10 years I have relocated fingers and toes on the mat while in competition

I dislocated my elbow (judo again) and walked off the mat
and crushed the top of my index finger in a large steel press tool

I can say that I have never felt such blinding pain as when I got hit on the thumb

the whole result was a badly bruised finger nail

BTW I was in chudan at the time and the swing came in from my left!!!

[Karaken]

Just like to a couple of things clear.
I didn't just drop to my knees and rip my kote off
I bowed quickly and knelt down to see what was wrong

Having practiced judo for over 10 years I have relocated fingers and toes on the mat while in competition

I dislocated my elbow (judo again) and walked off the mat
and crushed the top of my index finger in a large steel press tool

I can say that I have never felt such blinding pain as when I got hit on the thumb

the whole result was a badly bruised finger nail

BTW I was in chudan at the time and the swing came in from my left!!!

We had a thread somewhere - I remember posting a similar injury by a beginners who missed my Kote and hit my left thumb - Bruise lasted 4 weeks. Old Warrior broke his finger ( or lost fingernail ) after being hit..

Center

[Koori]

In our dojo, there is a standing rule. If you feel there is something wrong then you stop. No questions asked. One of the senior sensei will come and ask if you are ok or if you are in need of something.
I don't know if they are just over protective of me because I am a woman or not. I fell really bad once and twisted my ankle and it swelled up beautifully. Our head instructor helped me up off the floor (side note, he was the one that put me on the floor :) ) and walked me over to stairs to sit down. He took his spare tenugi and soaked it it cold water and tied it on my ankle to get the swelling down. He even came over throughout the rest of practice to check my ankle to see if it was going down or not.

Our sensei tell us that only we know our bodies and limitations. but they also know that I will push myself beyond my abilities because I love kendo.

Long story but at least at my dojo, they don't think less of you for stopping when you feel you must.

Later

~Koori

[not-I]

BTW I was in chudan at the time and the swing came in from my left!!!
judging from your second description, it seems you did the right thing and the "senior student" who afterwards accused you of "wimping out" was just being mr. tough guy. but i think there were enough posts already for you to have resolved this issue for yourself.

the last time my thumb got whacked, i was raising to strike men and my partner went for my men at the same time (thumb-uchi, he saw it, i signalled, and went to check it out -- it hurt like a mofo, but i was mainly concerned about the leather on my kote getting bloodied).

but this brings us back to the question of what the hell your partner thought he was doing striking from your left -- trying to hit your left kote while you were in chudan? that's just wrong technique. i hope he apologized.