Drawing Swords in Niten Ichi Ryu

[SamuraiKensai]

There are no schools in my area, and I'm having trouble finding books on the art. I was wondering if anyone could tell me how you're supposed to draw your swords in Niten Ichi Ryu. Thanks,

Joel

[R A Sosnowski]

There are no schools in my area, and I'm having trouble finding books on the art. I was wondering if anyone could tell me how you're supposed to draw your swords in Niten Ichi Ryu. Thanks,

Joel

I am not going to write the section out for you :D but you might just try NITEN ICHI RYU: THE SWORD OF MUSASHI MIYAMOTO available from Seidokai Training Manuals (http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_manual.htm).

[ralphy]

Here are some nito movie clips, drawing swords among others:
http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/nito/nito.htm

[R A Sosnowski]

Here are some nito movie clips, drawing swords among others:
http://www.kenshinkai.com.au/nito/nito.htm

Well, I think that we need to know if the original question was about Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu or Nito Kendo. :D They are two entirely different practices. I assumed the former, and ralphy assumed the latter.

If SamuraiKensai (aka Joel) could clarify this issue, then we can keep this thread on track, and help to answer the question that he really wants answered.

[Musha]

In Nito Kendo you usualy

1) Hold the Shoto bottom, daito top with tsuba overlapping the shoto.
2) Go in to Taito as if the two shinai were one and as if it was normal kendo
3) If it is Shou nito and you want to use the daito in your right and shoto left first draw the with your right hand across your body to the right.
4)Point the Shoto towards your opponent and bring it across your body and swap with the daito.
5) Then bring the daito under your shoto across your body to the right while going into Sonkyo.
6) You should end up with daito on shoto making a point with both shinai at your opponent as in normal kendo.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not sure about Niten ichi ryu but for Nito based 'Bokuto' practice.

1) Hold Shoto and daito in right hand like in Kendo kata
2) Pass them both to your left hand and do taito
3) With both hands at the same time draw both daito and shoto as in Kendo kata.
4) Sonkyo and point the tips of both swords at your partners throght
5) Put both bokuto on the floor crossed shoto on daito making a triangle with your nees as the bottom corners and kensen as the tip.

But Hyaku knows more than me. He is the leader of Niten ichi ryu you know,,, Joking :D.

[Twobitmage]

Hmm I always wondered something about nito (might as well ask it here)

i've only seen one guy practice it in person, and even then only for a few occasions, and after seeing that clip I wondered. When you practice kirikaeshi, you hit with both shinai right? (the large and small) but I was under the impression that you couldnt score with the small one? or that it was only for the kote and do if anything (not men)

[R A Sosnowski]

Hmm I always wondered something about nito (might as well ask it here)

i've only seen one guy practice it in person, and even then only for a few occasions, and after seeing that clip I wondered. When you practice kirikaeshi, you hit with both shinai right? (the large and small) but I was under the impression that you couldnt score with the small one? or that it was only for the kote and do if anything (not men)

Search for "nito-ryu" at e-bogu.com (http://www.e-bogu.com):


"Nito-Ryu no Waza to Riron" - Nito-Ryu Instructional Book in Japanese
KENDO PRINCIPLES IV - NITO-RYU [Two Swords] (English) Video; KENDO INSTRUCTION BY MATTHEW RAYMOND and VOICE BY MATTHEW RAYMOND


Enjoy.

[SamuraiKensai]

I'm not sure what the difference is between Niten Ichi Ryu Kendo and Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu, but I'm going to guess the kendo is with a bokken and the kenjutsu is with the real sword. If that's the case, then I mean kenjutsu.

[R A Sosnowski]

I'm not sure what the difference is between Niten Ichi Ryu Kendo and Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu, but I'm going to guess the kendo is with a bokken and the kenjutsu is with the real sword. If that's the case, then I mean kenjutsu.

There is no Niten Ichi Ryu Kendo; it is Nito Kendo or Nito-ryu Kendo. It uses bokuto for 13 daito vs. nito Kata; in bogu practice there is a daito-size (37) shinai and a shoto-size shinai.

In Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu, there are just bokuto used for kata:


12 daito vs daito kata
7 daito vs. shoto kata
5 daito vs nito (or daisho) kata


There is another two sets of five daito vs. nito "kata" that represent oyo waza (applied techniques) added by later headmasters.

[Slade]

Since I'm interested in Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu as well, my question goes to Raymond.

Does the book you mentioned, "NITEN ICHI RYU: THE SWORD OF MUSASHI MIYAMOTO", contain decent descriptions of the 24 kata (waza?) you listed, or is there another source for that you can suggest? Since there are no dojos near me that teach HNIR I'm trying to obtain as much reading material on it as possible. I made a promise to myself that when I reach shodan in MJER only then will I start practicing HNIR.

Thanks!

[Kaoru]

Since I'm interested in Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu as well, my question goes to Raymond.

Does the book you mentioned, "NITEN ICHI RYU: THE SWORD OF MUSASHI MIYAMOTO", contain decent descriptions of the 24 kata (waza?) you listed, or is there another source for that you can suggest? Since there are no dojos near me that teach HNIR I'm trying to obtain as much reading material on it as possible. I made a promise to myself that when I reach shodan in MJER only then will I start practicing HNIR.

Thanks! Slade-san,

No. There IS no book with the HNIR kata in it. Ask Hyaku-sensei. Though I suspect he is tired of people claiming to have knowledge of the waza when they do not. This book is not the real HNIR deal. He said nobody from the HNIR has produced any book with kata in it. They don't put out books and videos.

Please go here for an explanation:

http://www.hyoho.com/hyohoshi.html

And, here is the main HNIR official website:

http://www.hyoho.com/index.html

Hope this helps.

To study it, you're gonna have to go to Canada or Japan or the other places mentioned on Hyaku-sensei's website. There is an HNIR seminar held in Canada each year. :) And, don't even think of taking the information from there or a dojo and writing a book on HNIR without the Soke's permission...(Remembering your other post.)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Oh and so you know...

There are NO legit HNIR dojos in the US. Hyaku-sensei will confirm this fact. So, you will not be able to study HNIR unless you go to Canada or elsewhere, as listed on Hyaku-sensei's website. Sorry... :)

Kaoru

[R A Sosnowski]

Since I'm interested in Niten Ichi Ryu Kenjutsu as well, my question goes to Raymond.

Does the book you mentioned, "NITEN ICHI RYU: THE SWORD OF MUSASHI MIYAMOTO", contain decent descriptions of the 24 kata (waza?) you listed, or is there another source for that you can suggest? Since there are no dojos near me that teach HNIR I'm trying to obtain as much reading material on it as possible. I made a promise to myself that when I reach shodan in MJER only then will I start practicing HNIR.

Thanks!

You cannot learn this art from a book. This text is for reference only.

[R A Sosnowski]

Oh and so you know...

There are NO legit HNIR dojos in the US. Hyaku-sensei will confirm this fact. So, you will not be able to study HNIR unless you go to Canada or elsewhere, as listed on Hyaku-sensei's website. Sorry... :)

Kaoru

To my knowledge, there are only two people who give regular instruction in HNIR in North America, Kim Taylor and myself. Neither of us claim to "teach" HNIR. We encourage people who study with us to attend the HNIR seminars that Kim sponsors in Guelph, Ontario. Unless you have a personal relationship with the Soke, you have nothing.

[Slade]

You cannot learn this art from a book. This text is for reference only.Reference. Precisely what I'm looking for. Since travelling is out of the question at this time, I'm looking for any accurate reference material that I can get my hands on. Is the book worth getting or in your opinion is it a just another book on the life of Musashi and doesn't really touch on HNIR?


To my knowledge, there are only two people who give regular instruction in HNIR in North America, Kim Taylor and myself. I see you're relatively close to me, but who and where is this Kim Taylor you speak of?

[ZealUK]

Viola....

http://ejmas.com/tin/2004tin/tinart_taylor_3_0804.html

http://www.hyoho.com/hyohoshi.html

[R A Sosnowski]

[SNIP]

I see you're relatively close to me, but who and where is this Kim Taylor you speak of?

Start here at KimTaylor's Big Page of Stuff (http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/).

FYI, Kim and I go back to 1996 in a variety of ways: teacher-student, teacher-teacher, publisher-author, and co-directors.

HTH.

[Kaoru]

To my knowledge, there are only two people who give regular instruction in HNIR in North America, Kim Taylor and myself. Neither of us claim to "teach" HNIR. We encourage people who study with us to attend the HNIR seminars that Kim sponsors in Guelph, Ontario. Unless you have a personal relationship with the Soke, you have nothing.
Hi Sosnowski-sensei,

I said the US, not North America. :) Hyaku-sensei said it himself, that there is no HNIR dojo/study group or anyone authorised to teach it in the US. I am going on what he said. He mentions Guelph/Taylor-sensei all the time in referring people to HNIR in NA. I aso knew that Taylor-sensei runs a study group that is authorised, year-round besides the yearly HNIR seminar. I do know what I am talking about,(But I don't claim to know everything.) and yes, there are those who claim to "teach" it here in the US. I can name two at least. You are not one of those, of course. :) But until I hear from Hyaku-sensei saying there is actual HNIR instruction in the US and an official study group, I will say there ARE no HNIR dojos/study groups here in the US because that's the truth. Unless Hyaku-sensei tells me otherwise, that is.

Please don't be offended... That was not my intention. *bow* :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Oh yeah... I forgot to say that I didn't know you even had anything to do with HNIR other than just knowledge of it. Just thought you should know that. You never came up in my mind as one of those claiming to teach it. :) I'm sorry I made you think that.

Kaoru

[R A Sosnowski]

Oh yeah... I forgot to say that I didn't know you even had anything to do with HNIR other than just knowledge of it. Just thought you should know that. You never came up in my mind as one of those claiming to teach it. :) I'm sorry I made you think that.

Kaoru

FYI, Kim has a public dojo whereas I currently teach out of my house (but I am working on changing that). Hyaku-sensei is well aware of my activities. If you feel that you need to, then you may verify this with him.

FWIW,

[Kaoru]

FYI, Kim has a public dojo whereas I currently teach out of my house (but I am working on changing that). Hyaku-sensei is well aware of my activities. If you feel that you need to, then you may verify this with him.

FWIW, Hi Sosnowski-sensei,

I see! Thank you very much for the clarification! I really appreciate it. :)
I'm sorry for any misunderstandings.

Kaoru

[Slade]

FYI, Kim has a public dojo whereas I currently teach out of my house (but I am working on changing that).
Well, since you're the closest person with knowledge of HNIR I'm gonna have to dig up some free time to perster you for instruction. :)

[Hyaku]

Hi Sosnowski-sensei,

I said the US, not North America. :) Hyaku-sensei said it himself, that there is no HNIR dojo/study group or anyone authorised to teach it in the US. I am going on what he said. He mentions Guelph/Taylor-sensei all the time in referring people to HNIR in NA. I aso knew that Taylor-sensei runs a study group that is authorised, year-round besides the yearly HNIR seminar. I do know what I am talking about,(But I don't claim to know everything.) and yes, there are those who claim to "teach" it here in the US. I can name two at least. You are not one of those, of course. :) But until I hear from Hyaku-sensei saying there is actual HNIR instruction in the US and an official study group, I will say there ARE no HNIR dojos/study groups here in the US because that's the truth. Unless Hyaku-sensei tells me otherwise, that is.

Please don't be offended... That was not my intention. *bow* :)

Kaoru

Koaru give it rest will you! I can speak and write for myself and we really dont need a HNIR detective agency.

Sosnowsky Sensei my apologies.

[Kaoru]

Koaru give it rest will you! I can speak and write for myself and we really dont need a HNIR detective agency.

Sosnowsky Sensei my apologies.
Hi Hyaku-sensei,

All right. I'm sorry. I was just trying to explain what I meant, that's all. Looking at it, I should have re-written it. I had to explain, but I certainly could have said it differently and in a much shorter way and... not so, I can't think of the right word, but not so... silly?

And detective agency? Oh no. I wouldn't dare. I wasn't even thinking of such a thing. Please don't think I'd do that. I don't go looking for wrong dojos. The two I mean are one I read about on e-budo and another I ran across on a website by accident while looking for something else one day. That's all. That would be wrong to go looking for bad things on purpose.

And, please don't apologise to Sosnowski-sensei for my mistake. It is not your fault at all. It is mine. You don't have anything to apologise for. Since it is my fault, why should you have to apologise? That's not right, because you didn't do anything wrong. It is all my fault so I am the only one who should apologise. *shame*

And, I promise not to say another word on the subject. You have my word if honor on that, and when I make a promise, I keep my word. If anyone asks about HNIR and I happen to see the post, I'll just say to ask you and that is all.(As it would be impolite to refuse help to a person if I know where find the information.) Beyond that, I won't say a word. I promise.

Kaoru

[R A Sosnowski]

Hi Hyaku-sensei,

[SNIP]

And, please don't apologise to Sosnowski-sensei for my mistake. It is not your fault at all. It is mine. You don't have anything to apologise for. Since it is my fault, why should you have to apologise? That's not right, because you didn't do anything wrong. It is all my fault so I am the only one who should apologise. *shame*

[SNIP]

Kaoru

Under old-style Japanese etiquette, it is right and proper for Hyaku-sama to apologize for your actions. Modern Western culture has no analogue to this. Try to understand what he has done and why.

Apology accepted.

Now let's get back to training.

[Wout]

I am not sure about Niten ichi ryu but for Nito based 'Bokuto' practice.

1) Hold Shoto and daito in right hand like in Kendo kata
2) Pass them both to your left hand and do taito
3) With both hands at the same time draw both daito and shoto as in Kendo kata.
4) Sonkyo and point the tips of both swords at your partners throght
5) Put both bokuto on the floor crossed shoto on daito making a triangle with your nees as the bottom corners and kensen as the tip.

But Hyaku knows more than me. He is the leader of Niten ichi ryu you know,,, Joking :D.
I don't get it aren't the swords in the left hand, that would make it hard to draw with it, no?
BTW if you draw a sword out of a sheat wouldn't the sheat move too much if you didn't hold it with your hand?
Actually the more I think about how to draw two sword the more problematic it seems so there must be a certain way of doing it?

speakin as someone who has no clue how to draw a sword, knowing how to draw one sword looks like practice, drawing two swords looks.... complicated.

[Kaoru]

Under old-style Japanese etiquette, it is right and proper for Hyaku-sama to apologize for your actions. Modern Western culture has no analogue to this. Try to understand what he has done and why.

Apology accepted.

Now let's get back to training.
Hai. :( *seiza rei*

Kaoru

[Musha]

I took the drawing methord from the musashi kai nito ryu practice kata so I'm not sure how it is done in the Niten ichi ryu style.
I can't test it right now because I haven't any practive katana with sheath.


I would guess you hold the sheath with the left hand and draw with the right.


Then cross the drawn sword over to the remaining sword and grip the sheath of that sword with the right hand.



Draw the raming sword with the left hand.

[Slade]

After some debate a dojo-mate of mine and myself determined that you draw the daito as you normally would into a two-hand stance, then passing that to your left draw the shoto with your right. Again, I'm without my dang book and can't verify this for this post. In addition he nor myself have trained in HNIR, so this is by no means official or confirmed. It came by way of educated simulation.

[splice]

If we're talking about drawing swords in Niten Ichi Ryu, then guesses and books on "nito ryu" and "educated simulation" are worthless. If you want to practice Niten Ichi Ryu, find a teacher. If you want to know how to draw your two swords out, do it whichever way seems best to you; it's nothing to do with Niten Ichi Ryu. Niten Ichi Ryu is just a style, and not the only one to include nito components (afaik, not even the first one).

Slade, while your method gets both swords out, you end up in a reverse position from what Niten Ichi Ryu uses. If don't know much about an art, trying to figure out how they draw their sword on your own is bound to result in frustration and to be far from reality. If you want to experiment with drawing two swords, that's cool, probably all of us wonder about it at some point. Just don't think that it is related in any way to Niten Ichi Ryu :).

[Slade]

splice, your post sounds as if you're trying to prove me wrong but I said that I wasn't right about my idea in the first place. I know I haven't trained in HNIR and yes, I have found a teacher but time and distance might not get me started until this summer. And from what he's told me there's no draw in HNIR, both swords are at the "ready". If I got mine backwards that's only because I haven't done it yet officially. So, since there's no drawn, I was only speculating on how to get both of them out. I keep getting flashbacks in my head from TLS, where Katsumoto's son draws both as he charges across the bridge and all I picture is myself slicing both arms off at the same time. :wink:

If I need a disclaimer to re-emphasize that certain things I say have no official standing then I guess I'll have to use one.

[Hyaku]

Slade

Well I dont know who your teacher is but I did Ipponme for around seven years before moving on to Nihonme. You can forget Nito seiho if you really want to learn correctly.

There is little point in learning to draw if you dont know how to hold weapons in the HNIR manner. Then if you could grip them you would need to learn how to effectively use weapons one handed!

I can assure you that splice already has enough HNIR experience to realize the futility of books etc and is just trying to help you out.

Incidently he also reads them in Japanese.

[splice]

splice, your post sounds as if you're trying to prove me wrong but I said that I wasn't right about my idea in the first place.

I'm sorry that's the way you see it. I'm not out to prove anything, just to point out that imagining or logically deducing or anything of the sort doesn't have a place in this. If you want to draw swords "the Niten Ichi Ryu way", you learn Niten Ichi Ryu. If you want to talk about getting both swords out, there's no need to mention Niten Ichi Ryu at all, it's just a totally different topic.

There is more than one Ryu that does Nito, and I'm reasonably sure not all Ryu draw the swords the same way. Trying to deduce how to draw two swords out seems to ignore these stylistic differences. Really, are we talking about "how do I get my daito and kodachi out of their sheaths and into my hands", or "how does Niten Ichi Ryu hyohosha get their daito and kodachi into their hands"? For one statement, you can finagle and come up with ways, logical and not. For the second, there is but one answer, and it's not deduced or read in a book.

And while I realize the futility of books insofar as aids or guides to budo practice, I still quite enjoy them and am slowly building a collection :). There's no reason to be afraid of them, as long as you don't equate them with practice or learning an art.

[Slade]

Ok, when you said that "then guesses and books on "nito ryu" and "educated simulation" are worthless" you assumed I was talking about drawing both sword in HNIR, when in fact I was talking about drawing two swords in general. Your correction of my self-admittedly non-official guess was directed specifically towards HNIR style even though I wasn't talking about HNIR. Again with the reversed swords you stated that it was contrary to HNIR when I never said I was trying to figure out HNIR. So this whole time you thought I was talking specifically about HNIR, when I was just talking in general. Nothing like a little miscommunication to drive everyone nuts. :wink: Please understand that I wasn't trying to diss anyone, I was merely trying to point out that I was speaking in general and not specifically about the topic style in question. The book I was referring to had pictures of HNIR wazas (should've done a 'Net search) that I wouldn't dare replace for actual practice and that would've corrected my wrong swords in the wrong hands issue then and there.

So no harm done, bad choice of wording on my part and I'll try to be clearer and more direct in the future. Cool?