Fighting with two Shinais

[Shogun97]

On the download webside of Kendo-world there is a video,called Nito,where a guy is fighting with two Shinais .
Lookes cool and strange at the same time.:rambo:
When can you learn to do this and is it wise to learn it?
What do you think of it?

C.U.

[sminki]

Yes. It's called nito. There's been a LOT of discussions regarding this already. Look under the "waza" section of the forums or search the forum for "nito".

[mystic_kendoka]

you wont be able to learn it.... you need to have years of experience in normal kendo, and someone to teach you nito...

[Jin-e]

It might look cool but it's not very effective (I think). I once did a shiai with someone using 2 shinai, and it did'nt help him a lot.

[mystic_kendoka]

i think it would be, although ive never had the chance to try... one sword to defend, one to attack, seems effective... I'll try it on a friend or two :>

[mystic_kendoka]

besides, nito kirikaeshi would be a pain i think... for the uchidachi AND the motodachi, i think its a pain being hit by 1 sword, imagine wat its like with two...

[Mitsurugi_xx]

Hmm nito is crazy. if you are skilled in it, you'd definitely be a tough fighter.. but ya.. unless someone teaches you.. there is no way you can learn it on your own.. I think for sure if you want to do it you need solid basics in kendo. I read somewhere that Mathew Raymond on the Canadian team started nito after 3dan.. and he nito owns..

[Perfect Tommy]

besides, nito kirikaeshi would be a pain i think... for the uchidachi AND the motodachi, i think its a pain being hit by 1 sword, imagine wat its like with two...Nitto kirikaeshi is no diffrent for the motodachi to recieve than normal kirikaeshi as a nitto play can only cut with one shinai at a time, whilst one shinai is cutting the other is on the back swing for it's next cut. There is not a lot of differance in the speed of Nitto or single shinai kirikaeshi.

[Inouye02]

It might look cool but it's not very effective (I think). I once did a shiai with someone using 2 shinai, and it did'nt help him a lot.

maybe you should keiko with moocow ..

[Catherine]

I think that nitto can be very effective, but you have to be good at it. I think that it is quite difficult to find someone to teach you.

I think that Matthew Raymond on the Canadian National Team, beat one of the Japanese team members at the World Championships in Santa Clara playing nitto.

The difficult thing with fighting nitto is that the short sword can block your shinai while the long sword can cut you. I had the opportunity to fight against a nitto player in Melbourne, Australia earlier this year and it was a lot of fun. I think that you need to be really grounded in your own kendo to fight effectively against nitto.

Catherine

[Shogun97]

well, is any of you actually using nitto?

[Jarlaxle]

You need strong arms and in my opinion it also requires ambidexterity to be a good("best") nito player.

[Musha]

I tried to learn Nito by my self for a few weeks and did not find it too difficult. I also tried it against a Dan grade in my Dojyo. Did not do well, but I did not drop any of the shinai or do any thing really stupid :D. It does seem like starting kendo again though and it is a little boring without a Sensei to teach you or any one to practice with so I think I would rather wait till I get to a higher Dan grade before I start again. I am not even Ikkyu yet :D.

P.s You can strike with the Shoto and even get points. The Shoto can be used to brake down your opponent and then strike with the Daito because the Daito seems much slower than in normal kendo and you can not just go slashing people with it at will.

[Old Warrior]

"I tried to learn Nito by my self for a few weeks and did not find it too difficult."

Then clearly you are a much better kenshi than I or perhaps have a much different set of standards. On a good day nito is challenging.

[Musha]

I have heard alot of people say like Jarlaxle:-

You need strong arms and in my opinion it also requires ambidexterity to be a good("best") nito player.

I find that if you do a lot of Suburi practice it feels as fast as with a normal shinai. Probably not correct but feels ok. I read some thing that Moocow said about Jyoudan, that you should not swing the shinai over your sholder and not doing that does make it a little harder but I can still swing ok :D.
I am not saying it is easy or I am any better than bigginers level but I am sure if I did Nito every week insted of Kendo I could do it without any special expertise, Nito seems like a different thing you have to think about Shinai ballence, Hip movement, balence and body posture, Shinai weight Seme, seichu sen lots of different things. Nito is related to kendo but it could almost be Naginata :D.

P.s Don't pick at my posts it's only my view on things :wink:.

[taiwnezboi]

it's so hard to score on nito players.. fought against it yesterday.. every time I got close I got my shinai trapped =\

I heard it's weak against gyaku do.. maybe I'll do that next time =P

[Shogun97]

it's so hard to score on nito players.. fought against it yesterday.. every time I got close I got my shinai trapped =\

I heard it's weak against gyaku do.. maybe I'll do that next time =P
so nito is good against normal kendokas?

[taiwnezboi]

so nito is good against normal kendokas?

it's defensive

[Kendoka]

it's defensive

No correct kendo is defensive.

Nito needs confidence and skill to do well.

Richard

[Dave Fowler]

When I first saw nito, my first question to sensei was when can I learn :-) He indicated at that time to be at least nidan in Kendo before even trying. Now that I've got my nidan, and have attempted to teach myself a bit, mostly from the videos you can get at ebogu. I've found out that my arms are just not strong enough to do so.

As for one vs the other, hard to say. I also practiced against my sensei who was doing nito, and no he doesn't normally do it. And i'm just a lowly student, and was still able to beat him off most attacks. At which point he said see one sword is still better than two :-0

[Mitsurugi_xx]

You need strong arms and in my opinion it also requires ambidexterity to be a good("best") nito player.
I think strong arms help... but don't forget that there are many versions of nito.. i remember there are 2 different lengths allowed for the smaller shinai? and you can do "right" or "left" nito. (either the left or the right arm holding the longer shinai at jodan) and you can also have either foot forward, depending on your preference.

[Jarlaxle]

I think strong arms help... but don't forget that there are many versions of nito..

Just two versions (left or right) not many.If you choose the right swinger mode (daito in right hand) to skip your weak left ,then you lost in beginning.Most nito-wannabes start it with shoto in left and daito in right hand,so they also skip the footwork that changes your kamae to hidari front.
The original consept is daito in left and shoto in right one.You can better score kote and do by this choice.

So fighting with two shinai is not easy.If you take it seriously no seigan kendoka can beat you!!!!??


Liar,Liar
Chudan Rullz :cool:

[Musha]

The left and right are called Sho-nito and Gyaku-nito and in Niten ichi ryu I think that Sho-nito Daito in right is the standard but I don't think I have ever seen any one in a competition fight that way. You can't cut left Hidarido and kote is also harder.
In Gyaku daito in left it seems much more normal and much easier to cut kote. The Shoto also seems more offensive than defensive because most people are stronger with there right hands. But Do is pretty hard to cut because your left hand is not at manoeuvrable as your right.

But in Nito I think you want to get to the stage when both Sho-nito and Gyaku are the same for you :D.

Dave..
Now that I've got my nidan, and have attempted to teach myself a bit, mostly from the videos you can get at ebogu. I've found out that my arms are just not strong enough to do so.

Dave does that video teach you about Shinny balance? I don't really think you can learn from just a video :D.

[Old Warrior]

For the last 14 months I have done nothing but nito, with the daito in the right hand. Hitting kote simply requires a simultaneous small push of the opponents shinai to their left with the shoto, while you cut with the daito. It takes practice, but it is a very effective technique. Hitting do, is also, not that difficult, except that the cut is to the opponents left side. You just go for men and at the last instant cut to the waist. Depending on how convincing the the head cut appears, the do may or may not be open. I am hardly an expert and I am not suggesting that it is easy, but nito is like any other physical activity - it takes practice, practice and then some more practice.

[taiwnezboi]

For the last 14 months I have done nothing but nito, with the daito in the right hand. Hitting kote simply requires a simultaneous small push of the opponents shinai to their left with the shoto, while you cut with the daito. It takes practice, but it is a very effective technique. Hitting do, is also, not that difficult, except that the cut is to the opponents left side. You just go for men and at the last instant cut to the waist. Depending on how convincing the the head cut appears, the do may or may not be open. I am hardly an expert and I am not suggesting that it is easy, but nito is like any other physical activity - it takes practice, practice and then some more practice.

so you only hit do on the opponent's left side (gyaku do)? do you ever hit do on the opponent's right side? it's really hard to score in competition with gyaku do

[Old Warrior]

There is only one way that you can cut to the right side. When the opponent goes for men, you step to the right (with your back foot and break at the right knee) and cut across the right side of the attacker as he goes flying past. That is one of my favorite techniques (not one of my better ones, just favorite). I love looking over my left shoulder as shinai hits while the attacker is cutting thin air. When done right (I'm not suggesting I can), it is beautiful to behold.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You used to be able to block with the daito and swat a gyaku-doh with the shoto but I don't know if they score that one anymore.

[Musha]

I couldn't imagine hitting Dou with Shounito style lol, but I have not seen any one try for Gyakudo in normal kendo so maybe it is the same type of thing...
The thing that is strange about Nito is that your hips play much more of a part than in normal kendo. When you cut your body wants to twist sideways so you have to push your opposite hip forwards to keep strait. In my book it also shows some one hitting Dou and then using the turning momentum to turn around in Zanshin that looks quite good :D.

My arms are ok except I could do better if I did not try to swing up a fraction before attacking but the extra hip action is the most annoying thing. I need a teacher any way :).. and to wait afew years too.

[Inouye02]

it's really hard to score in competition with gyaku do

I scored at Steveston with gyaku do...

[Kendoka]

On the download webside of Kendo-world there is a video,called Nito,where a guy is fighting with two Shinais .
Lookes cool and strange at the same time.:rambo:
When can you learn to do this and is it wise to learn it?
What do you think of it?

C.U.

Shogun97, I think that you refer to Toda sensei.
He rc'd his 8th dan doing nito.
He is also a former AJKF Champion and the ONLY Champion who is NOT a policeman in Japan.
He is regarded as THE expert and is consulted widely on nito in Japan.
He is also a very nice gentleman and great teacher.

To learn nitto you will need to be an already experienced kendo player, use excellent zan-shin all the time and be tough!

And Jin-e, nito IS effective - very. But it depends (of course) on the skill of the nito player.

Have fun,

Richard

[taiwnezboi]

Shogun97, I think that you refer to Toda sensei.
He rc'd his 8th dan doing nito.
He is also a former AJKF Champion and the ONLY Champion who is NOT a policeman in Japan.
He is regarded as THE expert and is consulted widely on nito in Japan.
He is also a very nice gentleman and great teacher.

To learn nitto you will need to be an already experienced kendo player, use excellent zan-shin all the time and be tough!

And Jin-e, nito IS effective - very. But it depends (of course) on the skill of the nito player.

Have fun,

Richard

Miyazaki and Eiga are policemen?

[taiwnezboi]

I scored at Steveston with gyaku do...

never said it was impossible.. just difficult

[moocow65]

Yes Toda-sensei is awesome. I had the honor of practicing against him using my nito. He is a very open-minded sensei, and very nice.

[Musha]

Miyazaki and Eiga are policemen?

I don't think Eiga is a policeman. I watched a documentary and I think I remember that he had is own open school in Hokkaido?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Eiga-sensei is a policeman from Hokaido, Miyazaki-sensei (Masahiro) is a policeman from Kanagawa.

[Musha]

Sorry Eiga is a Police man, On the All Japan renmei site it says that Mitsunobu is the only mens fencer in the WKC who is not a member of the police force. Also most of the women that took part are also in the police force.

[moocow65]

Except for my homie Shinzato. She was the only college student on the team.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Shogun97, I think that you refer to Toda sensei.
He rc'd his 8th dan doing nito.
He is also a former AJKF Champion and the ONLY Champion who is NOT a policeman in Japan.
He is regarded as THE expert and is consulted widely on nito in Japan.
He is also a very nice gentleman and great teacher.

To learn nitto you will need to be an already experienced kendo player, use excellent zan-shin all the time and be tough!

And Jin-e, nito IS effective - very. But it depends (of course) on the skill of the nito player.

Have fun,

Richard

Toda sensei is indeed a great guy and great teacher (although I have a feeling that he`s not the only non-police champion, although I may be wrong). Anyway, he onle properly started kendo in high school, and even then with breaks, and yet began nito at uni (`a friend and I wanted to see how hard we could hit with one hand`). So if we take his example, you don`t have to become an itto genius first to make a success of nito. Although he just happens to be both...

[Kendoka]

Miyazaki and Eiga are policemen?

Yes, and the info came to me first hand, from the horses mouth, so to speak!

[Catherine]

There was a musing earlier in the forum in relation to whether a particular cut with the sho-to could still be scored.

Toda sensei held a workshop in Melbourne a few years ago (not on nitto specifically, but you can guess what sort of questions we asked !) - at that workshop he let us know that it is not possible to score a cut with the sho-to any longer.

Catherine

[JamesB]

Can you still score Tsuki with the shoto ?

[MaxPayneWayne]

There was a musing earlier in the forum in relation to whether a particular cut with the sho-to could still be scored.

Toda sensei held a workshop in Melbourne a few years ago (not on nitto specifically, but you can guess what sort of questions we asked !) - at that workshop he let us know that it is not possible to score a cut with the sho-to any longer.

Catherine

JamesB read the last thing Catherine said.

[JamesB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine
There was a musing earlier in the forum in relation to whether a particular cut with the sho-to could still be scored.

Toda sensei held a workshop in Melbourne a few years ago (not on nitto specifically, but you can guess what sort of questions we asked !) - at that workshop he let us know that it is not possible to score a cut with the sho-to any longer.

Catherine



JamesB read the last thing Catherine said.
It said a CUT. Tsuki is not a cut. So does someone know if you can still score a tsuki with the shoto ?

thanks,

J.

[Kendoka]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine
There was a musing earlier in the forum in relation to whether a particular cut with the sho-to could still be scored.

Toda sensei held a workshop in Melbourne a few years ago (not on nitto specifically, but you can guess what sort of questions we asked !) - at that workshop he let us know that it is not possible to score a cut with the sho-to any longer.

Catherine




It said a CUT. Tsuki is not a cut. So does someone know if you can still score a tsuki with the shoto ?

thanks,

J.
A point can not be scored with the shoto.

[MaxPayneWayne]

you're kidding right James? a tsuki is not a cut? is that your justification for asking that unnecessary question? aren't men, kote, do, and tsuki all points in kendo? so why would tsuki be exempt from the no scoring rule with the shoto? a tsuki is not a cut...... don't you think Toda-Sensei meant ALL areas of scoring?

[Neil Gendzwill]

I thought it was a perfectly legitimate question. Tsuki is not a cut, it is a thrust. Catherine said "it is not possible to score a cut ". The guy asked for a clarification, is all. I'd like to know too.

[Catherine]

Hi,

A tsuki is indeed a thrust rather than a cut. We were told by Toda sensei that it was not possible to score anything at all with the sho-to, that it could now only be used for blocking.

We did not specifically ask about tsuki, but Toda sensei was very adament that the sho-to could not be used to score points.

Catherine

[JamesB]

Thanx for the extra explanation Catherine.

To MaxPayneWayne: I guess you've never received a tsuki, if you have you really should know that tsuki is NOT a cut but a thrust (thanks Neil)

[Hyaku]

Point wise it may be different But technically a tsuki is a cut. Its a thrusting action but the sori will open up a wide cut if you use a blade. This should be taken into account when you do kendo kata.

[Shogun97]

Point wise it may be different But technically a tsuki is a cut. Its a thrusting action but the sori will open up a wide cut if you use a blade. This should be taken into account when you do kendo kata.

why the hell is tsuki a cut??

[Hyaku]

why the hell is tsuki a cut??

Read again?

[Zaphiel]

i love nito......want to do it as soon as possible(which will take soooooome years)

[MaxPayneWayne]

Thanx for the extra explanation Catherine.

To MaxPayneWayne: I guess you've never received a tsuki, if you have you really should know that tsuki is NOT a cut but a thrust (thanks Neil)

JamesB, exactly how many years have you been studying kendo? Do not make assumptions like that about someone whom you don't even know. I have been doing kendo for over 15 years. I have practiced kendo all over the world. If you knew so much about kendo, you would know that a tsuki is not supposed to THRUST directly into an opponents throat, but it is supposed to come down at an angle into the tsuki......just like a men cut. If you want to question that, then you better question Miyazaki Masahiro because that's also what he said in Kendo Nippon.

[Kingofmyrrh]

Is there really any need to get so vitriolic about the whole thing? Certainly, talking about real swordwork, what Hyaku says agrees with everything that I`ve ever heard.
However, in terms of shinai kendo, which is the issue right now, I think it`s reasonable to think of them differently. I`m sure with so much experience you`ve come across the term `yuukou datotsu` many times. If you`re reading kendo nihon then I guess you also know it`s written 有効打突. `yuukou` meaning valid. `da` meaning strike. `totsu` meaning thrust. So even this basic definition gives a nod to their difference by referring to each separately. Anyway, even if this weren`t the case, it was a perfectly innocent question...
By the way, everything I`ve heard from Toda sensei suggests that a point can be scored with the shoto, but ONLY when suppressing the opponent`s shinai with the daito. he does concede that this is a practically impossible situation, as much down to the fact that not many people would know how to judge it. I certainly wouldn`t!

[mystic_kendoka]

exactly wat does a 'tsuki' mean in japanese? i think that could clear the argument here,

i *think* ive seen the term tsuki used in other japanese martial arts and it means a thrust or stab with their hand...

not 100% confident though...

[Musha]

突く Tsuki [To thurust, Push, Lunge, Poke, Attack] :D.

[emitbrownne]

By the way, everything I`ve heard from Toda sensei suggests that a point can be scored with the shoto, but ONLY when suppressing the opponent`s shinai with the daito. he does concede that this is a practically impossible situation, as much down to the fact that not many people would know how to judge it. I certainly wouldn`t!
why are shoto cuts disallowed?

[Kendoka]

why are shoto cuts disallowed?

Possibly because -
Toda senseie said so, (LOL)
and
If you have two swords and one of them is a long one, why would you want to cut with the short one?
Remember that in the real situation, being in so close to you opponent (to be able to cut with the shoto) is a VERY dangerous situation.

Richard

[Kingofmyrrh]

As I (very roughly) recall, it`s just because the whole situation at tsuba-zeria becomes farcical if you allow shoto cuts, as you can just whack the other guy without even really trying. I`m sure that there are many people of the `realistic technique` bent who may not accept that as a valid answer, but that seems to be the main reason.

[Ishii]

Is there any rules in Nito about in which hand should be longer shinai ? Is it allowed to use right or left hand depening what is more comfortable for you?

[Kendoka]

Is there any rules in Nito about in which hand should be longer shinai ? Is it allowed to use right or left hand depening what is more comfortable for you?

You can use either hand for either shinai.

[Kendoka]

Is there any rules in Nito about in which hand should be longer shinai ? Is it allowed to use right or left hand depening what is more comfortable for you?

Either hand can hold either shinai.

[Musha]

Yes you can use either hand. The normal and Niten ichi ryu form is called (Seinito) and (Gyaku nito). In kendo we usually fence from Sei the right side of your partners shinai and cross over to Kote and Do. But we can also fight from Gyaku the left side of your opponents Shinai that usually leads to fooling your opponent into thinking you are attacking kote. But acutely you want him to cross back and attack men.

This is the same in Nito but we must always fight from Gaku Daito shinai in left hand or right hand. Sei nito is easier for right handed people but I am coming to believe gyaku is more effective in a true fight. :cool:

[Zaphiel]

I've heard you use two different long shinais in nito....is that right?

[mystic_kendoka]

two long shinais? normally its one long one short isnt it?

[Musha]

I've seen two long Katana in films but not Nito. Shoto for blocking and maintaining Chudan and Daito for attacking and maintaining Joudan :D.

[Kendoka]

I've heard you use two different long shinais in nito....is that right?

All your questions are answered at http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kendo/shinai.htm.

[Zaphiel]

All your questions are answered at http://home.vicnet.net.au/~kendo/shinai.htm.
thanks a lot!

[JamesB]

JamesB, exactly how many years have you been studying kendo? Do not make assumptions like that about someone whom you don't even know. I have been doing kendo for over 15 years. I have practiced kendo all over the world. If you knew so much about kendo, you would know that a tsuki is not supposed to THRUST directly into an opponents throat, but it is supposed to come down at an angle into the tsuki......just like a men cut. If you want to question that, then you better question Miyazaki Masahiro because that's also what he said in Kendo Nippon.
Sorry if I offended you Max, I didn't mean to.

But what then with Mune-tsuki ? I know it's not done in Kendo (surely no point) but is this a cut also ?

[DCPan]

Sorry if I offended you Max, I didn't mean to.

But what then with Mune-tsuki ? I know it's not done in Kendo (surely no point) but is this a cut also ?

Actually, at one point in time, Mune-Tsuki were allowed against opponents in Jodan.

As that resulted in the decline of Jodan-competitors, they took that away.

:smiley:

Also, tsuki is kind of a thrusting-cut...that's how it's done in seitei iai #6 morote-zuki and seitei iai #9 soete-zuki.

IMHO, the tsuki coming down at an angle is a nicer technique esp for shinai kendo because it allows you to track the target as the tip is coming down, if the opponent tries to move aside. It is MUCH harder to track the target if the tip is on it's way up from chudan. Also, if you miss, if the tip is coming down to the target, it could potentially become a mune-tsuki or land somewhere on the opponent to stop their forward motion. If you miss on an upward tsuki, you hit air, they hit you... :evolved:

That said, it's surprising how many Japanese college competitors do a tsuki from gedan.... I am told that it keeps the tip of the shinai out of the opponent's visual field until it's too late...dangerous though as it's more likely to go under the men and into the throat. Supposely, it's an itto-ryu technique as well.
The annoying thing is they have a tendency of bouncing the tip of the shinai off the floor on the tsuki extraction....Breaking the tip of your sword...bad ... :ko:

FWIW

[not-I]

I've seen two long Katana in films but not Nito.
Zaphiel might have gotten confused last week by seeing our sensei smack the shinai out of someone's hands, collect it first, and then wield it with his own in dai-nito. :D

[Kendoka]

... Also, tsuki is kind of a thrusting-cut...that's how it's done in seitei iai #6 morote-zuki and seitei iai #9 soete-zuki.

Let's all agree that a cut or a thrust is actually "yuko da totsu"

[Musha]

I went my first British Taikai last week and was interested in seeing one Sensei do Nito kendo.

What I was thinking is if you use Shoto to cut, and your opponent was cutting at the same time. Would the Shouto contact cancel out your opponents Yukou datotsu??!! Is that what the Shouto if for in modern Kendo?

[mystic_kendoka]

if it does cancel it out, i think it would be a HUGE advantage for the nito kendoka..

[emitbrownne]

If you have two swords and one of them is a long one, why would you want to cut with the short one?Why wouldnt you?
otherwise carry a jutte/baton/shield/stick... if you are not going to cut... why use a sword?

Remember that in the real situation, being in so close to you opponent (to be able to cut with the shoto) is a VERY dangerous situation.
Richard
having a shoto at close range is very dangerous for your opponent, who is too close to use his longsword well.

???

[taganahan]

at what rank are you really permitted to use nito? i've been practicing doing men, saiyou-men and kote with my left and right arms. it's only been a week since i've been practicing and now i have the speed to do it.

oh yeah....for everyone who wants to learn nito and wants to learn the techniques of musashi, here's your chance. there's a news letter from kim taylor

August 5-8 Niten Ichiryu with Imai soke and Iwami sensei as well as Colin
Watkin (Hyakutake) sensei. We'd like to see a large turnout for this one.
For everyone who has been asking for the last 10 years "how do I study
Musashi's sword style", here's your chance to do it without having to
travel to Japan. The seminar is in August this year so rooms are available
cheap in the hostel

for info contact him
Kim Taylor
mailto:kataylor@ejmas.com
519-836-4357
44 Inkerman St
Guelph Ontario
Canada N1H 3C5

[mystic_kendoka]

bah.. i was getting excited, until i read "Canada"..

anyway, u can start nito anytime u like, even people who have never had kendo experience can start it, but its like driving an F1 formula racing car, they can start when they like to, but if they start too early, chances are they'll suck at it..

normally anyone who is quite confident in kendo, has strong enough arms, generally good basics should be okay at nito..

[KhawMengLee]

at what rank are you really permitted to use nito? i've been practicing doing men, saiyou-men and kote with my left and right arms. it's only been a week since i've been practicing and now i have the speed to do it.
[/font]

Most my Senseis say after Yondan(4thdan). Basically its so you have well rounded sense(I won't use the word mastered) of Kendo basics...sorta like saying you gotta learn to walk before you try to run.

I started Nito just before I got my Shodan because I had to opportunity to learn from one of my Senseis in the UK who practices it. He had the philosophy that we can learn from all the different styles and kamae, so he taught me a bit of Jodan and Nito.

Nito I like in particular and it teaches you a lot about Maai and timing...as well as getting the co-ordination right. At the moment I cheat, in the sense I train myself to make two movements into one...eg, strike with daito and raise shoto to protect men...etc...and I drill this for an hour each day.

I would really like to get to the stage tho' where both my shoto and daito can operate independantly, sorta like a good drummer.

p.s. if you wanna pick it up make sure your arms are nice and strong...lots of one handed suburi. And make sure you get lots of practice in keiko before you enter a taikai doing Nito because, as MOOCOW said, everyone will be watching and if you suck...hahahha...the world remembers.

[taganahan]

yondan?...that sure is a long time. guess i'm back to the dojo or my bedroom and practice my arms...grrr:)

[KhawMengLee]

yondan?...that sure is a long time. guess i'm back to the dojo or my bedroom and practice my arms...grrr:)

Heh, well if you have the opportunity to train with someone who has done it for a while, take it! Its pretty interesting.

[taganahan]

the problem is, we don't have anyone from our dojo who practices nito. the only time i saw one used nito in our dojo was when someone came in to practice with us from another dojo and also at the steveston tournament this year. right now, might as well strengthen my arms just so that i'll be ready when i can take it up.

found a good place to practice kendo, at the backyard. beware, your feet will turn green after quite sometime of rubbing it on the grass. lol

[kanyil]

Heh, well if you have the opportunity to train with someone who has done it for a while, take it! Its pretty interesting.Indeed, I've just received permission to learn nito from one of my sensei who is a nito nanadan. It's so different from chudan, and places a very high demand on your strength/stamina.

It's especially interesting when 2 nitos fence each other because it felt like there were shinais-shinais everywhere.


p.s. if you wanna pick it up make sure your arms are nice and strong...lots of one handed suburi. And make sure you get lots of practice in keiko before you enter a taikai doing Nito because, as MOOCOW said, everyone will be watching and if you suck...hahahha...the world remembers.
After 2 practices using nito I felt so...sloppy, despite the fact that I have been training my one-handed suburis for sometime now. I think I will do nothing but nito kirikaeshi for a while so that I could get better at the basics.

[Old Warrior]

Indeed, I've just received permission to learn nito from one of my sensei who is a nito nanadan. It's so different from chudan, and places a very high demand on your strength/stamina.

It's especially interesting when 2 nitos fence each other because it felt like there were shinais-shinais everywhere.

After 2 practices using nito I felt so...sloppy, despite the fact that I have been training my one-handed suburis for sometime now. I think I will do nothing but nito kirikaeshi for a while so that I could get better at the basics.
I disagree with the stamina conclusion. I'm not saying that stamina isn't important, but Nito is a matter of wait, watch & study, and look for the instant for the best attack. I find the key is to be able to relax; while waiting for that one chance. Training the eye is more important than the body.

I hate facing someone whose mind set is so similar. It's like a left handed fencer facing another. You see so few of them that is actually quite challenging and often turns out to be very awkward looking.

For shodan I had to do 1000 one handed suburi. I was the first student who was ever asked to do it and at 57, Sabumnim was worried about my health if I did them all. I have been taught to do kirakaeshi solely with the daito and told to do full cuts, holding the shinai at the end, with a concentration on better form than speed.

Its been a fascinating Kendo journey and doing only nito has proven to be quite challenging and rewarding.

[Paburo]

whoa... where can you find this Toda-sensei? :D

[moocow65]

whoa... where can you find this Toda-sensei? :D
Ah yes. Toda-sensei. I practiced with him using my nito, but not before 3 other hachidan senseis dragged me over to practice with them, and I got all tired. I believes he lives in Tokyo. I know a couple of guys where I live who practiced with him all the time when they were in Japan. He's a really great guy.
Old Warrior, stamina is very important in nito. Holding that damn daito over your head takes ALOT of stamina. Then there's all that other stuff you have to do in kendo that uses stamina. There are those nito kenshi who rest the daito on their men. Those people are lazy and weak, and I heard that strikes from that position do not count. I guess it would be like resting the end of your tsuka on your tare if you're in chudan. Doesn't look good, it's being lazy, and it shouldn't count as an ippon.
Kanyil, don't practice with nito, until that daito is relatively light. When you're able to do 50 hayasuburi one handed, and you do them CORRECTLY, that's when you know you're physically able to do keiko. Well, that's how I base it on.

[kanyil]

Chudan is touted as the most balanced kamae there is, and there is much less "senior/sensei pressure". I am still a chudan person, but was granted the privilege to start studying nito with this sensei.

It's a steeeeep learning curve, especially when my other senseis from other dojos don't want anything to do with nito. I finally understand why so many sempais studied under this sensei and then went back to itto.

My lessons in nito for now is just kirikaeshi, kakarigeiko, and fencing itto against nito sempais. I find fencing itto against nito sempais is a really useful way to learn nito as you learn about nito's strengths and weaknesses first hand.

Old Warrior[/b]]I disagree with the stamina conclusion. I'm not saying that stamina isn't important, but Nito is a matter of wait, watch & study, and look for the instant for the best attack. I find the key is to be able to relax; while waiting for that one chance. Training the eye is more important than the body.
That's what I thought too, but nito "kirikaeshi - kakarigeiko - kirikaeshi" seemed to be this sensei's preferred method of training. Kihons are learned from sempais.

While I get to jigeiko with the others in the dojo using nito, I was constantly being told to "attack", "attack", "attack". Maybe I'm too new to nito to wait, watch, study and pounce as you said. Thank you for your advice, I will keep your advice in mind for future keikos.

My reference to stamina also includes the ability to hold the shinai over my head for extended periods of time, as Moocow has said. I have now resorted to holding a suburito over my head in nito position while watching tv, reading books, working etc, to build up muscle strength. Have been getting a few strange looks from my colleagues too, but oh well. :D

Moocow65[/b]]Kanyil, don't practice with nito, until that daito is relatively light. When you're able to do 50 hayasuburi one handed, and you do them CORRECTLY, that's when you know you're physically able to do keiko. Well, that's how I base it on.
Thanks for the advice Moocow. I cannot possible do 50 correct katate-hyasuburis at this point and maybe the lack of strength and form is why I felt so sloppy when doing jigeiko with nito.

I have recently switched to fencing itto with 750 g shinais and will bear your advice in mind when trying to prepare myself for nito.

[Old Warrior]

Old Warrior, stamina is very important in nito. Holding that damn daito over your head takes ALOT of stamina. Then there's all that other stuff you have to do in kendo that uses stamina. There are those nito kenshi who rest the daito on their men. Those people are lazy and weak, and I heard that strikes from that position do not count. I guess it would be like resting the end of your tsuka on your tare if you're in chudan. Doesn't look good, it's being lazy, and it shouldn't count as an ippon.
I did not mean to imply that stamina was unimportant. Rather, for someone of my years, the least available commodity is stamina/energy. That is not to say that I cannot improve and that I should not try harder, but at this age my only hope is to start moving to the place I think you are going to be, before you realize that's where you're going or to induce you to go to a place I can control (seme).

We usually do bouting by using the same rotation of 2 lines that we do for regular practice. I fully understand that by the the 4th rotation my 37 shinai feels like a 73. If I could rest between bouts I could go on for much longer but continuous bouting absolutely demands more stamina than I will ever have.

[Alessandro]

The nitoryu it`s for everyone, it is true u need experience on basic kendo first...but c`mon!! u don`t need "YEARS" U just need strong arms for the hidari men and aim. And about needing somebody for learn it, well it`s true but not SO necesary

[mystic_kendoka]

The nitoryu it`s for everyone, it is true u need experience on basic kendo first...but c`mon!! u don`t need "YEARS" U just need strong arms for the hidari men and aim. And about needing somebody for learn it, well it`s true but not SO necesary

beware: RETARDED post above!!

[Alessandro]

Yeah sorry about that, i was distracted reading something, but u must admit, that the nito don`t need years =S does it?

[Alessandro]

Well, it`s just an opinion, don`t u agree? Maybe just a a year or 2, but not more than that...i guess =P

[Alessandro]

By the way...is it true there is a new kata of iaido?? =S i heard something like that last month

[zato]

theres something about nito...its not only you must know how to hit with two shinai, there must be reason to use two shinai...reason to hit with two shinai...bah...what do i know....

2:36 n to much cofee!

[Malekith]

I found this if anyones interested on ebay. I know you cant learn from a book and its in Japanese but it may be of some help to someone

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4515530150&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V

[Ryukyu]

Old Warrior,

If I understand you correctly from one of your previous posts, then you hold the daito in your right hand and shoto in your left.

Did you reverse your foot work from the norm?

[Louis X]

ABOUT E-BAY : don't get this auction. (Sorry to yell :D)

Starting price : 39 $, postage to US : 18 $ + insurance. Do a search on amazon or somewhere else.

[neko kenshi]

I have a really stupid question, but I can't contain my curiosity; Sorry. Is it illegal to hold the daito in haso? Once again, I know it's a stupid question, but I have never seen a rule against it. Sorry again.

[neko kenshi]

One more thing, I've found this:

For nito-no-kamae



Sex

Daito (longer sword)

Shoto (shorter sword)

Length

Both

<114cm

<62cm

Weight

Male

Female

>440g

>400g

Between 280 & 300g

Between 250 & 280g

Tip Diameter

Male

Female

>25mm

>24mm

>24mm

>24mm




Does this mean that for the daito, one could make a shinai with the tsuka being only long enough for one hand? It seems that would be easier to use in tsuba-zari and other situations if you had that length as bamboo instead of more tsuka than you'd use anyway. Also, I had heard in an earlier post that there are two lengths of shoto? Could someone please clarify this for me? Thank you very much in advance for your help and tolerance.

[mystic_kendoka]

tht wld be a stupid thing to do.. coz ur very limited then, u cant move ur hand up n down to change the balance..

[Old Warrior]

Old Warrior,

If I understand you correctly from one of your previous posts, then you hold the daito in your right hand and shoto in your left.

Did you reverse your foot work from the norm?
Yes, my left foot is forward. That means to hit kote, the shoto must move the opponents shinai off center to open the target. It also means that even people who are experienced dealing with nito, find me a bit confusing. At tsubazerai, opponents are not quite sure which side of do I can or will hit.

I do wish to again point out again (for those who think this was some kind of whim on my part) that doing nito was not my idea. Three months into kendo, Sabumnim took away my 39 shinai, came back with a shoto and a 37 and said "you will learn". He has never (through a translator) told me why, but I know he thought about it and has reasons.

By teaching me something that no one else was being taught, he challenged me, enabled me to use those skills I have (an understanding of sword combat) to compete at a satisfying level. I'll never be really good, but I am thoroughly enjoying the journey.

[Ryukyu]

Thanks for the reply Old Warrior.

It seems like kote would be more difficult like this, but I would guess that it's just what you get used to after practicing it enough.

Do you get much instruction, or are your pretty much left to your own devices to figure things out?

How long did it take to get used to using the left foot forward footwork?

Sorry for so many questions, but enquiring minds want to know.

Happy New Year.

[DCPan]

Does this mean that for the daito, one could make a shinai with the tsuka being only long enough for one hand? It seems that would be easier to use in tsuba-zari and other situations if you had that length as bamboo instead of more tsuka than you'd use anyway. Also, I had heard in an earlier post that there are two lengths of shoto? Could someone please clarify this for me? Thank you very much in advance for your help and tolerance.

I believe so. Many nito books actually recommend making your own 37 shinai from a 39 shinai.

However, I hear from someone who did do that that by cutting down a 39 and leaving enough for only one hand, the balance of the shinai is much more tip-heavy compare to an off the shelf 37.

FWIW.

[Old Warrior]

Thanks for the reply Old Warrior.

It seems like kote would be more difficult like this, but I would guess that it's just what you get used to after practicing it enough.

Do you get much instruction, or are your pretty much left to your own devices to figure things out?

How long did it take to get used to using the left foot forward footwork?
.
By now the best students know the biggest mistake they can make is to cross my shoto as they try and close the distance. At the instant they do, I push their shinai to my right and simultaneously hit kote. Most learn quickly that failing to stay at distance (until you attack) is a no, no.

I get as much instruction as I can handle. In other words, kendo is repeating basic actions over and over, striving for that elusive perfection. Many times, I see Sabumnim, by himself, trying out new techniques with nito, and then deciding which one will work for me. And then, when he has found one he likes, he shows it to me and tells my training partners that no matter what the class does, when its my turn he wants me to practice the new technique. It is hard, because he does nito with the daito in the left and not every technique translates well to the reverse hand style. But, I can tell, he loves it when I learn something new, practice it for days and then he sees it work. I really get the sense he is enjoying teaching me nito. When we have guests (and they are always ranks above me) he saves me to be their last bout and I sense he gets a kick out of it, when his oldest, fattest, white haired student, with no knees, decimates someone who takes me too lightly.

The footwork was no problem because I started doing it so soon in my studies. I never really learned the footwork any other way. I do admit that my footwork is the weakest part of my kendo and it needs much improvement.

[moocow65]

The nitoryu it`s for everyone, it is true u need experience on basic kendo first...but c`mon!! u don`t need "YEARS" U just need strong arms for the hidari men and aim. And about needing somebody for learn it, well it`s true but not SO necesary
I have a feeling you're just saying this to annoy people, but eh whatever. In my opinion, there is only ONE strong nito practioner in North America, everybody else has a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong way to go. He is the one who inspired me to start nito. You need to know about seme, timing, and other advanced kendo concepts to excel in nito, not just brute strength. As for needing somebody to learn it, I really didn't need someone to teach me one on one, but that's because I had 16 years of kendo under my belt. So in a sense I did need YEARS to learn it.

[kanyil]

Hi Old Warrior, Moocow and other nito-sempais,

I was wondering whether is it possible to separate the learning of "nito theory" from "nito keiko"? I know this sounds a bit dumb as one learns kendo mostly by doing, but please bear with me.

As stated in my earlier posts in this thread, I have a nito sensei who said he is willing to teach me, upon my request when I felt I am ready. I do not yet feel ready. However, I might be leaving Taiwan sometime this year for a new job in Sydney and therefore will lose access to this sensei, and I understand nito senseis are quite rare.

Presently I act as the itto guy for the other nito sempais in the dojo to keiko with to gain experience being on the receiving end of nito. I also listen closely to all the advice and instruction given out by the sensei to the other sempais. However, I can't help but wonder whether all of the advice and instructions so received will come to nothing if I do not actually start jigeikoing with nito. However, I simply feel that I have so much more to work on with my itto.

Would it be preferable for me to ask to start nito immediately? Or is it possible for me to continue with my present practice and soak up "nito theory" first, and then start nito overseas at a time when I felt I have sufficiently prepared myself? I appreciate your thoughts on this issue.

[JSchmidt]

I moved to NZ not too long after I started jodan and suddenly found myself in a country where virtually noone had any experience with jodan. (neither doing it or fighting against it)...and...it was a struggle. For awhile I actually thought I was doing ok, until I went to a taikai in Canberra and got beaten badly. Luckily, Kirby Smith (DeathbyKendo) gave me quite a few pointers to where I was going wrong and I managed to salvage it after that.

So. If you are serious about doing nito, my advice would be to start now, while you can still get instruction, so that you got a reaonable chance of getting the basics down.

Jakob

[Old Warrior]

Would it be preferable for me to ask to start nito immediately? Or is it possible for me to continue with my present practice and soak up "nito theory" first, and then start nito overseas at a time when I felt I have sufficiently prepared myself? I appreciate your thoughts on this issue.
There is no finite end point when one has finally "learned kendo". I don't think one wakes up on a particular day and has some sort of epiphany. While I am sure that I am not worthy to carry Moocow's bogu bag, I do have an opinion.

I am learning nito because sabumnin decided that I should. If you want to do nito, be prepared to: be the only one doing nito in the class, adjust so as to fit in to the itto practice routine, make up your own practise exercises when what everyone else is doing doesn't translate into nito, and lastly deal with the fact that everyone wants a piece of you because you are different.

The bottom line is that if you are doing kendo and enjoying it - I don't see why is nito such a burning desire. If the stars line up and you have learned the basic kendo lessons of distance, timing, grip, holding center etc. and you want to venture out into something even more demanding - go for it. But, don't think about it too much.

[DCPan]

I was wondering whether is it possible to separate the learning of "nito theory" from "nito keiko"?

LOL...do you want to learn nito kendo based on itto basics OR nito kendo?

Also, do you want to do sei-nito or gyaku-nito?

As stated in my earlier posts in this thread, I have a nito sensei who said he is willing to teach me, upon my request when I felt I am ready. I do not yet feel ready.

BTW, Taiwan is one of the few places that has niten-ichi ryu. While I don't know the details and the politics of it, I do know that Aoki Soke lived in Taiwan for quite a while. I believe Chen sensei down south was given some sort of license from Imai soke.

Care to PM me on which nito sensei in Taiwan you are referring to?

Presently I act as the itto guy for the other nito sempais in the dojo to keiko with to gain experience being on the receiving end of nito.

My body still remembers the way one of the sensei I visited strips the shinai out of my hand way back in 1993.

When the conditions are right, I just unconsciously disarm somebody...I'm still not quite sure how it happens...I guess I'm fairly impressionable, esp when the sensei would ask me "Are you ready?" and proceed to disarm me in the exactly same way...3 times in a row....

[kanyil]

Hi Old Warrior and DCPan,

Thank you both for your comments.

I just realized how dense I have been. Of course there will not be a magical moment that I just wake up and feel "I am good enough at itto now so I guess I am ready to start nito". I will request to start nito immediately.

I will be doing sei-nito, as I do not have full use of my left arm due to an old accident.

I remember seeing the Niten-Ichi-Ryu bokken story reported on news a while back. I had just found out that Hyaku will be coming to Kaohsiung during the March 26-28 "Asian Cities Invitational Taikai" to do a demonstration. Hopefully I can make the trip.

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

I think i remember a quote from the book of the five rings by Miamoto Mushashi. He said that the key to learning the Nito technique was to practice with two long swords ( Bokkens)

[mystic_kendoka]

umm.. since nito meant 2 swords, using 2 swords is logical..

what he said was to be able to master his way, you had to use the short sword closely, and the long sword farly (is this a word?)

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

I meant using two long swords instead on one long and the other short.

[Light Samurai]

I meant using two long swords instead on one long and the other short.We know. using two long swords means you cannot protect up close. this is a bad strategy in my mind. but do as you wish. Musashi said to use both Wakizashi and Katana. although with two long swords you could keep them all at bay until your over run... okay, anyway, the point is.... that you can learn mito with a long and short sword... or after you have alot of martial experince, use two long. oh well. sorry if this came across rude, it did not.
Peace.

[MINAMOTO YOSHI]

I think Mushashi meant that if you practice with two long swords you would get used to the weight and able to weild to swords freely.

[Kaoru]

I think Mushashi meant that if you practice with two long swords you would get used to the weight and able to weild to swords freely.
You mean one long, one short. That's what he used. :) Please read here before commenting further:

http://www.hyoho.com

Asking Hyaku-sensei, a member here, about this who teaches and trains in HNIR(Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, Musashi's sword art.), would be a very good idea. :)

Kaoru

[moocow65]

Does anybody really know what he meant????? Just give me my shinai and let me hit people. That's my philosophy and there's no need to analyze that. It means what it says.

[Kaoru]

Does anybody really know what he meant????? Just give me my shinai and let me hit people. That's my philosophy and there's no need to analyze that. It means what it says.
Ahahaha! Too funny. But, true! :)

Kaoru

[kanyil]

Hey nito-kas. If you guys ever visit the Tokyo area you should really think about paying the Musashi-kai guys a visit (do email them before hand). They website also has some excellent content.

I've posted my experience on the following thread if anyone's interested:

http://www.kendo-world.com/forum/showthread.php?p=89451#post89451


Cheers!

[kanyil]

Kanyil, don't practice with nito, until that daito is relatively light. When you're able to do 50 hayasuburi one handed, and you do them CORRECTLY, that's when you know you're physically able to do keiko. Well, that's how I base it on.
50! :D

For some reason I found doing the hyasuburi correctly with the shoto to be much harder than the daito. I wonder if it's because of the different balance, or whether my busted left elbow is preventing me from doing katate suburis correctly. This problem was not as noticeable when I was doing itto.

[Lemonzee]

you wont be able to learn it.... you need to have years of experience in normal kendo, and someone to teach you nito...

i don't think it's right to simply state that you can't learn something like that. i started nito after 4 years of kumdo, and it's simply a personality question when it comes to the bottom line. there is always a preference. granted that you need a base in one sword, two swords is a wholey different style in which there is limited compatibility to the one sword style. the difficulty of beginning nito is what i find as the biggest reason for the lack of its popularity.

[Lemonzee]

that just sounded extremely ignorant... or am i missing something?

[Old Warrior]

...the difficulty of beginning nito is what i find as the biggest reason for the lack of its popularity.

Believe it or not, if you start Kendo being taught nito, it seems as natural as learning one sword. Of course, if gaining rank is a prime goal, life gets a lot harder as time goes on when you are forced to learn one sword, particularly doing kata.

For me, the choices were made by sabumnin and a torn up left knee. I can't begin to tell you whats "right", but it has made for an interesting journey met with enough success to keep it interesting and challenging.