Jodan Tsuki

[moocow65]

I was wondering if any of you do tsuki from jodan or nito. If so, how do you guys do tsuki from that kamae? It's been fairly effective for me during keiko. Haven't tried it in a shiai yet.

[Musha]

I’ve tried it on my own doing Nito suburi at home, just dropping the kensen down to chudan and doing tsuki as normal. Seems much easier and can be done further away than Itto kendo.

Would like to see a video of that in Jodan though and wonder if there is one on the Nito video site some one mentioned... :D.

[Hongsermeier]

Moocow...I have the Nito video from E-Bogu. It shows doing tsuki using the shoto (short sword). Looks like it could be pretty effective. Use daito as fake then come in with shoto for tsuki. :cross_eye:

[litige]

Seems much easier and can be done further away than Itto kendo.



this is quite impossible. The katate tsuki in "itto" kendo is done with a 39 shinai. In Nito, you have to start from up then go down and hit the tsuki, this, with a smaller shinai. In Itto, if you start in chudan, you are already pointing at your opponent's throath.

[Musha]

But Litige, when you do normal kendo you are actually using your left hand to do the Tsuki and that is closer to your body. I also learned that you should use your hips and not reach out at all so your Shinai should hardly move when doing normal tsuki giving even less distance than kote.

Here is a page from my book about Nito kendo.

http://community.webshots.com/scripts/editPhotos.fcgi?action=showMyPhoto&albumID=87843585&photoID=130444044&security=UaWSoF

The text next to the pictures on the left translates as follows.

'Basic tsuki

First lower your shinai and point it at your opponents throat,
Then move forwards and hit tsuki. This is Tsuki in two steps.'

The other method not visible is Tsuki in one step.

I am sure there are other ways to do tsuki but as you can see the man uses his whole arm and the shinai to hit Tsuki giving a much greater distance. It still says use the hips but the distance seems much greater to me.
And Litige I have been using my normal length shinai to practice Nito. The only reason nito shinai are shorter is because if you try to hold them 1/4 from the end of the tsuka when you swing shomen the end of the shinai is useless and gets in the way. Nito shinai are only shorter in the tsuka not the shinai it's self :).

[Andoru]

Musha: link not working :(

[Musha]

Wish this forums file attachment worked correctly :(

try these

http://community.webshots.com/album/87843585HioApY

http://community.webshots.com/photo/87843585/130444044UaWSoF

[Neil Gendzwill]

But Litige, when you do normal kendo you are actually using your left hand to do the Tsuki and that is closer to your body.
Apples and oranges, you're comparing the basic morote-zuki we all learn at the start with a single-handed tsuki from jodan or nito. More appropriate would be katate-zuki from chudan, where we not only extend with the left hand but also quite commonly cross over to attack on the left foot. Tons of distance there.

As far as katate-zuki from jodan or nito being "much easier" than from chudan... well, you did post it on April Fool's. I frankly can't think of a much more difficult technique than that, unless you make it katate-harai-tsuki from jodan.

[Musha]

Litige..
this is quite impossible. The katate tsuki in "itto" kendo is done with a 39 shinai. In Nito, you have to start from up then go down and hit the tsuki, this, with a smaller shinai. In Itto, if you start in chudan, you are already pointing at your opponent's throath.

Sorry I was not talking about Katate tsuki. I just got the impression that Litige was saying that because your shinai in Nito is smaller that it would be harder to make the distance. And he also said that it would be hard to lower the shinai then attack Tsuki. I have never done Tsuki against any one while doing Nito, Katate tsuki or Jyoudan but from what it says in the book by a dojyo that only teaches Nito and looking at the photos it does not seem harder than Itto.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There's the danger of book-learning for you. If I were to tell you seme is easy, just step in sharply and your opponent falls apart, maybe you'd believe that too?

[Musha]

:rolleyes: I can't be bothered this time..

[not-I]

:rolleyes: I can't be bothered this time..
Musha, not meaning to flame you, but i don't see why you "bother" anyway.
If a cyber-sempai like Neil were to correct me or tell me i was talking out of my hat, i'd either say "thanks, didn't know that" or just let it be, rather than trying to refute him and/or justify myself. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, unless it turns into a habit.

As to the high frequency of nito and jodan threads such as this one, i find it slightly disturbing, as i was told these are the kind of techniques one might attempt after achieving third or fourth dan at the very least.

"[So] I arrived in college, searching for my degree
But Lord knows a degree isn't all i got, and that's the way it's supposed to be.
I hope that when I get kids of my own, they really don't get shook
when I tell them that there are things they got to learn that can't be found in books." -Gil Scott-Heron.

[Musha]

Not-I I said that because I do not want to go off topic with this. I 've already done that about 4 times and went on for days :D.
I have no problem with taking peoples word on things but I just don't like it when people don't explain things more like saying "I know that is the true and that is the end of it".


Neil Gendzwill..As far as katate-zuki from jodan or nito being "much easier" than from chudan... well, you did post it on April Fool's. I frankly can't think of a much more difficult technique than that, unless you make it katate-harai-tsuki from jodan.

Neil why is it more difficult? Telling me would be better than slaging me off.

Since I saw I documentary about Eiga and watched his fight I think that his Tsuki was the best excample of a tsuki I have seen. I have never seen any one do one in my dojyo and my sensei said that no one should do it because it is too dangerouse. Some one did it by accident yesterday and chined me knocking my jaw up lol :silly:. So I think there would be much more power in Ryoute (Two handed tsuki).

On the other hand Nito tsuki seems like it would be difficult to aim with one hand. Though as I said I am sure if done correctly you would hit your opponent even from Touma or a further distance..

[Neil Gendzwill]

Neil why is it more difficult? Telling me would be better than slaging me off.

I haven't slagged you off, you take it as slagging off because you seem to be so desperate to be in a teaching role and any suggestion that you may have something to learn causes you insult.

I've told you you're wrong because you haven't tried it. Like much of the advice you give, it's based on extremely limited experience and guesswork. All I can say is, try to bring a shinai down from jodan, one handed, past your opponent's defences and accurately hit tsuki. It's very, very difficult. Take a look at the first post - you've got a world class competitor asking for advice because he is not yet confident enough in the technique to try it in shiai.

Lots of stuff in kendo sounds or looks simple in description, but is difficult to execute. "Straighten your back", "relax your shoulders", "make the sound of your shinai and your foot at the same time" are all easy to describe actions that take lots of practice to get right, and must be worked on continually.

[litige]

Musha, tell your sensei to do kendo the normal way. Tsuki is part of kendo. People like your sensei makes the art to loose of it originality.
I goes like this. Not doing tsuki (to dangerous) ---> Not doing any hit at all exept Kote because its much more easier to rub your shinai on your opponent's Kote. ---> Kote Fencing.

I don't know near nothing in Kendo, you also do know nothing, so would you stop talking about how its easy to do something you don't know?

[litige]

Maybe I'll go to your dojo, it seems everything that is done or seen is the right way of doing things....

[litige]

Also, you are now talking about Jodan. But some months ago, you said in your own words that Jodan was not Kendo, because at your dojo you didn't see one use it....

[Musha]

I was wondering why Moocow was asking this if he sounds like one of the best Nito fencers here. I gave a scan of how my book says to do tsuki in Nito and that is the best info I can give :).


All I can say is, try to bring a shinai down from jodan, one handed, past your opponent's defences and accurately hit tsuki. It's very, very difficult.

I am not talking about Jyodan. If you look at the scan you can use the Shouto to keep his shinai from attacking and keep it off centre called 'Pushing' or 'Guiding' in the book. This is one of the things I think is good about Nito.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


I haven't slagged you off, you take it as slagging off because you seem to be so desperate to be in a teaching role and any suggestion that you may have something to learn causes you insult.

Lastly I don't take offence at any thing people say except when they directly call me stupid... And I am not at all desperate to be in a teaching role. One of the things that I learned when I went to Japan was just how bad I was. I don't mean I was bad compared to any one else but when I talked to a boy of about 14 he said he had been doing Kendo for 4 years!! Even if I am 18 I can't expect to be better than any one that has been doing kendo longer than me in Japan. I always like to think I am bad because if I were to think I was good you I would stop learning.

I have learned a few things from this post too but I am just giving my opinion that every one on this forum should have the right to have.

Sorry for long post I will put a line where things a not really relevant :).

[slidercrank]

I am not talking about Jyodan. If you look at the scan you can use the Shouto to keep his shinai from attacking and keep it off centre called 'Pushing' or 'Guiding' in the book. This is one of the things I think is good about Nito.

I think you should put that book away. It has happened here more than once already. Someone asks a question, and you answer it by quoting a passage from a book and adding a bit of your own wisdom. Sometimes the quoted passage is out of context with respect to the question asked; other times your own advice is questionable if not outright wrong. And then when people call you on it, you retort that you were just relaying info from some book.

Since you were not talking about jodan, you must have been talking about nito then, considering the question was about jodan/nito tsuki. Try this: dangle a tennis ball from the ceiling, and position it at the throat height of your imaginary opponent. Stand from 2 shinai's length away from the ball (that distance represents approximately the normal ma-ae between 2 kenshi's), adopt your favorite nito kamae, and then see how well you can tsuki that ball with your daito.

[moocow65]

Hey Musha, I just wanted to know how other people who do Jodan or Nito do their tsuki. Do you even do Jodan or Nito? This thread was for people who actually do Jodan or Nito, not for people who just read about it. I sound like I'm one of the best nito fencers here???? I don't think that even matters. I just wanted to know how other people do tsuki, and you turned it into a big argument that has nothing to do with it. Thanks.
As for me, I kinda hit tsuki from a downward angle. I bring my left hand down to the center of my chest, and from that position I bring my shinai down as if I'm going for men, but I hit the tsuki at a downward angle, and as soon as I connect then I fully extend my arm outward. It's difficult, but definitely not impossible. It's actually been easier than I thought it would be.
And Musha, Eiga's final tsuki was a little off the mark. The first one that he threw was much better.

[Musha]

Sorry Moocow, I saw this was going off topic so I did not want to carry on too much with it. Has any one that replied actually done Nito kendo or Jyoudan? Litige? Neil? I am sure it is not just me and at least I did Nito for one Jigeiko lol :D.

I'll wait for some one with experience. Oldwarrior seems like he knows a lot about Nito...

P.S I sill have a hook on my ceiling where I used to have a two strap speed punch bag. I'll try using a ball to practice tsuki, sounds fun :D.

[Old Warrior]

Actually this was the subject a small lesson I received 2 weeks ago. Although I do nito, bouting begins with my assuming a stance where the daito is pointed at the throat and the shoto is crossed under the daito near the end of the shoto. Master Seong wanted me to practice using the shoto to move the opponents blade to my left (his right) and then to tsuki with the daito. Since I stand with left foot forward, I asked if he wanted me to step forward with the right. With some translation help, I understood he wanted me to use my usual footwork and that the thrust basically came from the hips because - it had to be strong.

I hope the above is clear. For the record, I have not had the courage to try this yet, because I have not sufficiently practised the technique to attempt it on a human subject.

[JRyo]

I think there is a tsuki with the shoto somewhere in this clip:

http://individual.utoronto.ca/kendo/videos/Mar06-V4.AVI

[Neil Gendzwill]

As for me, I kinda hit tsuki from a downward angle. I bring my left hand down to the center of my chest, and from that position I bring my shinai down as if I'm going for men, but I hit the tsuki at a downward angle, and as soon as I connect then I fully extend my arm outward. It's difficult, but definitely not impossible. It's actually been easier than I thought it would be.
That's kinda the way I pictured it too, although I haven't tried it myself. My jodan is still at the stage of figuring out how to create a chance. Tsuki isn't a technique I throw much even from chudan - I think we just need to practice it a lot more at our club.

[JSchmidt]

I will occasionally (and accidently) hit the tsuki when I try to cut from too far away or opponent moves back as I cut. (I take it as a sign that I'm at least cutting straight :D), but I never try it intentionally.
I reckon you'll need a very strong (and clear) kiah to convince both opponent and shinpans that it's intentional.
Still..I think (from jodan at least) cutting men instead is the more logical choice.

Jakob

[moocow65]

I totally agree with you when you said that cutting men would be the most logical choice, but when your opponent knows you're going to hit either men or kote, it's going to be pretty difficult to score. This is especially the case when your opponent is of extremely high caliber. Being able to do tsuki and do would definitely throw off your opponent, and will create more opportunities to score when your opponent has four areas to worry about instead of just two.

[kendokamax]

I think i remember Etou (oosaka police) scoring in All Japan a tsuki like that. He is not a jodan player but the tsuki was really like trying to go for men and oops the men is a bit short and he goes for the tsuki. Looks cool. From jodan, it must be extremly difficult...

Moocow!! you should go to kanagawa, see Shoudai . You probably heard of that guy, but his jodan is complently nuts. He is young (22) , I think when he played in All Japan he was showing off doing a lot of "useless stuff",like the renzoku katate men (like 6 men in a row!) but he is just amazing. Looks like he is liked by Miyazaki, same police station. I think (I hope!) he will be one of the powerful jodan player in the future. Even, I, wanted to give a try to jodan after seeing his matches in All Japan. Kakkoii desuyo!!

It s been too long since there wasnt any strong Jodan player on the All Japan scene uh? well at least some Americans are trying to be there on the world scene haha

sorry didnt really have anything to do with this thread!

[KhawMengLee]

Moocow!! you should go to kanagawa, see Shoudai . You probably heard of that guy, but his jodan is complently nuts. He is young (22) , I think when he played in All Japan he was showing off doing a lot of "useless stuff",like the renzoku katate men (like 6 men in a row!) but he is just amazing. Looks like he is liked by Miyazaki, same police station. I think (I hope!) he will be one of the powerful jodan player in the future. Even, I, wanted to give a try to jodan after seeing his matches in All Japan. Kakkoii desuyo!!


Doesn't he appear in Miyazaki's new kendo book? BTW what's his full name?

[slidercrank]

Doesn't he appear in Miyazaki's new kendo book? BTW what's his full name?
Shoudai Kenji. His picture is on page 9 of this issue of Kendo World.

[Twobitmage]

tsuki from jodan? whoa..how does that work?

[Eldritch Knight]

One of my senpai would harai down to chudan and then tsuki from there, all in a continuous motion. I don't know if that's right (never got around to asking my sensei) but he seemed to have the technique down solidly, so it seemed right.

[NukF]

The problem with that is the time. Even if you`re in a continues movement it takes to long. But it works, I tried it in keiko, but against more experienced kenshi i was not able to handle it.

[Eldritch Knight]

Yea. Every time my senpai does jodan tsuki, I always manage to evade it. I'd guess that unless you're really good, jodan tsuki would be merely a show-off move.

[emitbrownne]

I was wondering if any of you do tsuki from jodan or nito. If so, how do you guys do tsuki from that kamae? It's been fairly effective for me during keiko. Haven't tried it in a shiai yet.
Doesnt the Kamae in nito affect the question. If you are in a chudan,gedan or neutral nito Kamae then your tsuki would surely be as difficult as from a normal two handed chudan through to katate tsuki?

If your hands were high (jodan style) then I see the problem. Maybe it would work best as a two cut technique (kote-tsuki, men-tsuki), or as a step back technique?

but then what do I know... apart from nothing :)

[Musha]

Look at P39 of the 'Kendo nito ryu waza to riron book' [migi waki no kamae] :).

[emitbrownne]

look at pg 63 (dont worry folks who do not have the book, I will see if I can find images to post), this is a jodan kamae that moves to tsuki in one move.

[Musha]

I posted about that at the start of this post but some people did not want to listen and wanted to argue instead :). Here is it again

http://community.webshots.com/photo/87843585/130444044UaWSoF

'Basic tsuki

First lower your shinai and point it at your opponents throat,
Then move forwards and hit tsuki. This is Tsuki in two steps.'

The other method not visible is Tsuki in one step.

Basically I think because nito is mostly in Jodan because you have the Shoto to maintain chudan. You must lower the Daito into Chuudan and do a normal Tsuki. Simple as that. Maybe I could show you next time I am at your Dojyo :D.

P.S you were great at Naginata, would like to see you against Leng :).

[emitbrownne]

look at pg 63 (dont worry folks who do not have the book, I will see if I can find images to post), this is a jodan kamae that moves to tsuki in one move.http://nls-edits01.ofoto.eu.com/servlet/OplCommandServlet?r=0.9581738686959167&sessionid=108315724846234906135633&cmd=get_image&img=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ofoto.eu.com%2Fphotos103%2 F6%2F35%2F61%2F71%2F46%2F0%2F46716135633_0_ALB.jpg ..................

dodgy pic but you get the gist :)

[moocow65]

The tsuki in the picture that Musha posted would never work in a shiai. People would see you coming from a mile away. I don't agree with it being a kihon tsuki either. Tsuki doesn't really go straight into the throat, it comes down at a slight angle into the throat. The one that brown posted is the better way to do tsuki. That's the way I do it, and it works really well. It's much faster and harder to tell that it's actually a tsuki. I just push down their shinai and go for tsuki. There's the side-step Jodan tsuki, and the stutter-step tsuki that I also do. They are all pretty effective, but to me, Jodan tsuki is mostly useful for opening up other targets like men and kote. So all you nito guys in training, I recommend you guys learn tsuki too if you haven't yet.

[Kendoka]

I was wondering if any of you do tsuki from jodan or nito. If so, how do you guys do tsuki from that kamae? It's been fairly effective for me during keiko. Haven't tried it in a shiai yet.

Seen it done by a 9th dan and have tried myself.

Commencing from jodan, it is a one handed waza, or "katate".
Think of this technique "katate tsuki" as more of a cut than a thrust.
Try from jodan doing a cut like a straight men, but the ken sen travels a bit lower, so that it meets the target, the "tsuki tame" on a bit of an angle rather than straight in >.

When contact is made, apply some pressure and show zanshin.

Hard to explain in words, but it is quite a beautiful technique.

Richard

[yamaguchi]

Do you know Tuki has 2 style? One from under, and one from upper!

[D'Artagnan]

Do you know Tsuki has 2 styles? One from under, and one from upper!


did you get that off the back of a Penguin?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

(not the bird, the biscuit, they have little 'did you knows' on the back)

p.s. i took the liberty of correcting your grammar in my post. :wink:

[not-I]

p.s. i took the liberty of correcting your grammar in my post.
not really. then it would be "the one from below and the one from above." :smoker:

and what about "the one from the left and the one from the right"?

yours truly from beneath the underdog,
the love below.
:evolved:

[D'Artagnan]

not really. then it would be "the one from below and the one from above." :smoker:


hahahahaha

fair point,

the Grammar oF me,'! perfect {is} ...no't ?. :dead:

[emitbrownne]

Do you know Tuki has 2 style? One from under, and one from upper!
Do you know my tsuki has no style? One in the throat the other flat on the mune! :)

[JSchmidt]

I actually did manage to pull off a tsuki from jodan this Saturday.
Was fighting one of my teachers and we were goofing around a fair bit, including him going into waki-gamae(!), so I decided to give the tsuki a go and much to my own amazement, I pulled it off perfectly.

Jakob

[Steve]

I'll just add a couple of cents worth of comments here.

First off, Tsuki from nito as far as i have ever seen (and felt) was by using the shoto. I'm sure its possible to hit with the daito, but unless the opponent was asleep how could you ever hit?

From Jodan, (again as far as my limited experince goes) just isn't viable. Jodan depends on being aggressive on holding your kamae. Sensei have told me that its better to take the hit than to break your kamae or block. Keeping that in mind, unless you did an attack which missed and follow up with tsuki, or a morote harai-tsuki...well, tsuki just isn't in the jodan arsenal.

This is my opinion, but i don't think that Tsuki is a viable waza to be in a Nito players arsenal either. It *does* exist in both, in theory. But as a practicle waza, well....

[moocow65]

I'll just add a couple of cents worth of comments here.

First off, Tsuki from nito as far as i have ever seen (and felt) was by using the shoto. I'm sure its possible to hit with the daito, but unless the opponent was asleep how could you ever hit?

From Jodan, (again as far as my limited experince goes) just isn't viable. Jodan depends on being aggressive on holding your kamae. Sensei have told me that its better to take the hit than to break your kamae or block. Keeping that in mind, unless you did an attack which missed and follow up with tsuki, or a morote harai-tsuki...well, tsuki just isn't in the jodan arsenal.

This is my opinion, but i don't think that Tsuki is a viable waza to be in a Nito players arsenal either. It *does* exist in both, in theory. But as a practicle waza, well....

I have yet to score an ippon with a a tsuki from nito in a shiai, but I have hit many tsuki that could count as an ippon in practice. I did a tsuki on a guy who was in the world championships during keiko as well. Tsuki can be in the nito and jodan arsenal. It just takes a hell of alot of practice to be able to do it. Most people believe its impossible to do tsuki from that position so they dont even attempt to practice it. I first thought so at first, but its very possible.

[Steve]

I belive i can be done, I've done it myself in practice at our club. It hit, which cool. This may be off topic a bit, but the point I'm getting at (and maybe I'm wrong) but doesn't coming down from the Jodan position to perform a Tsuki (from Chudan) break the spirit or essence of a jodan Kamae?

Oh, when i say Jodan I'm including Nito as well since the nito we are all talking about is the Nito-Jodan no Kamae.

A side tangent fropm the current thread, but just curious on people's opinion on that one.

[kendokamax]

This may be off topic a bit, but the point I'm getting at (and maybe I'm wrong) but doesn't coming down from the Jodan position to perform a Tsuki (from Chudan) break the spirit or essence of a jodan Kamae?



well wheter you go for men or kote or tsuki or whatever you break your kamae..where is the difference?


actually I feel countering tsuki from jodan is more difficult than men or kote where you "easely" can do suriage. plus the effect of surprise is huge.

[Steve]

Striking a men or Kote is different than going for Tsuki though. To hiut Tsuki, you have to break your Jodan kamae in order to (at least momentarily) assume a type of Chudan no kamae.

This makes the Tsuki strike a 2 stage process, where the men or kote are a single smooth continuous motion.

hmmm, unless you initial down movement was a Morote Harai Waza. But then again wouldn't you have broken your Jodan spirit be being so close in order for that to work? This allows your opponent to easily attack, allowing then to move from defensiveness to offensiveness. Exactly opposite to what Jodan is meant to do.

[moocow65]

Striking a men or Kote is different than going for Tsuki though. To hiut Tsuki, you have to break your Jodan kamae in order to (at least momentarily) assume a type of Chudan no kamae.

This makes the Tsuki strike a 2 stage process, where the men or kote are a single smooth continuous motion.

hmmm, unless you initial down movement was a Morote Harai Waza. But then again wouldn't you have broken your Jodan spirit be being so close in order for that to work? This allows your opponent to easily attack, allowing then to move from defensiveness to offensiveness. Exactly opposite to what Jodan is meant to do.
Jodan tsuki is a one stage process. You come down from jodan similar to doing a men strike, but it hits the tsuki instead. You dont go down into chudan and then do tsuki from there. That takes forever and is really easy to see.

[Hai_hai]

... I did a tsuki on a guy who was in the world championships during keiko as well...
If a tree falls in a forest, does it still make a sound. Yes.
Moocow... you are my hero.

[Steve]

ok MooCow, now i'm curious. You're saying that instead of lowering your kensen down, and then thrusting that you instead try to just hit the Tsuki? I assume that you push once you've made contact, but am I understanding this correctly?

I don't mean that i would lower from Jodan into chudan, but swing down as if for a katate strike, and when my Kensen was at "chudan Level", change from swinging down to thrusting forward. But you say that the downward "strike" should actually land on the tsuki? Is this correct?

anyway, maybe the best thing here (at least for me anyway) would be for you to maybe give a step by step of what you are saying to do. Thanks!

[Chusan]

@moocow: thanks a lot for this extremely interesting topic!
One more thing to work on for my list of strange things to study during keiko.