Men Construction

[Jamie]

Hello, I have a question regarding the men and its construction.

1. Does the stitching eg 4mm or 2mm also relate to the weight of the men? some definately feel heavier than others?(I know it relates to its durability).

2. Is a titainium mengane lighter than an alloy one?(no one in our dojo has titanium so I cant compare) and if so is it considerable?

I am in the market for a new men and after wearing my old heavy thing I would like a light weight model.

Thanks for reading this.

[Neil Gendzwill]

1. Does the stitching eg 4mm or 2mm also relate to the weight of the men? some definately feel heavier than others?(I know it relates to its durability).
I think it's more of an overall construction thing. Hand-stitched ones seem to be lighter, or at least mine is.


2. Is a titainium mengane lighter than an alloy one?(no one in our dojo has titanium so I cant compare) and if so is it considerable?

Actually it's about 100 g heavier. Titanium is stronger, and markets better.

[DCPan]

2. Is a titainium mengane lighter than an alloy one?(no one in our dojo has titanium so I cant compare) and if so is it considerable?

I am in the market for a new men and after wearing my old heavy thing I would like a light weight model.


Hi,

While the titanium grille is heavier than the dura-aluminum grille, I wonder how much improvement the IBB titanium grille helps?

Like when you swing a shinken...the pob changes the perceived weight of the sword...I've swung several shinkens that are heavier than my iaito by weight, but feels lighter.

My current 1.0 bu hand-stitched men has a IBB Dura-Aluminum men-grille, 15 bars for my big face... :D Can't get much lighter than that....

I've heard a lot of good things about the A-1 or "tokuren men" of Kanagawa Hakkoudo, as reported in Kendo Nippon mag April 2004...since they were designed from the specs given by the Kanagawa special training police, I suppose it would be very light and practical...haven't had the fortune of seeing or using one though.... :D


If you want light and balanced, I'd go for the IBB grilles for sure...if you are gonna pay extra, I'd go for either the IBB Dura-Aluminum or IBB Titanium Pro.

:D

[Jamie]

Thankyou both for your reply, Could you please let me know what an IBB Grille is please?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Brand name of a particular men gane - stands for "internal better-balanced". They are usually found on only the top-end equipment, although some suppliers let you order the cheaper men with them.

[Dave Fowler]

Does the alloy vs titanium really make that much difference in the men?

[DCPan]

Does the alloy vs titanium really make that much difference in the men?

I've been told that part of the reason people who train vigorously use titanium is because your sweat will corrorde the aluminum grille. Not having paid much attention in chemistry, I can't verify that statement.

Similarly, not having worn an IBB titanium grille for practice, I can't say. I will say that my IBB Dura-aluminum grille is MUCH lighter than my previous titanium grille.

As for what IBB stands for, there are many explanations to the acronym...the one I heard is "ideal best balance". The funny thing is, if it is "BEST" balance, what is the difference between IBB titanium and IBB titanium PRO? :D

Many brands carry IBB grille. I was impressed by one of the catalogs that I received last night as every bogu in their line uses IBB. That's also the first catalog that I've seen IBB Dura-aluminum grille listed.

FWIW :D

[Hai_hai]

I've been told that part of the reason people who train vigorously use titanium is because your sweat will corrorde the aluminum grille. Not having paid much attention in chemistry, I can't verify that statement...

Although aluminum can corrode, it has a very slow corrosion rate. Unless you are training in seawater, your mengane should not corrode for a very long time.

[DCPan]

Although aluminum can corrode, it has a very slow corrosion rate. Unless you are training in seawater, your mengane should not corrode for a very long time.

Well, the worry is that you won't know about the corrosion, so, 5 or 7 years down the line, a grille breaks during uchikomi practice...etc... :D

My bogu has a warranty for 10 years...so if the grille breaks, I get a new one :D

[Hai_hai]

Well, the worry is that you won't know about the corrosion, so, 5 or 7 years down the line, a grille breaks during uchikomi practice...etc... :D

My bogu has a warranty for 10 years...so if the grille breaks, I get a new one :D

Aluminum, like other metals, will corrode on the outside. Corrosion will be visible. Sailboats use aluminum masts. When I said training in seawater, very high salt-content water will corrode aluminum. The amount of sweat that your mengane is exposed to doesn't equal that of direct contact with seawater. In other words, your mengane will not corrode for an extremely long time. The second thing is that aluminum is stronger than bamboo. It is unlikely that the mengane will break from a shinai hitting it. It will, in the most extreme conditions, get partially bent.

[DCPan]

Aluminum, like other metals, will corrode on the outside. Corrosion will be visible. Sailboats use aluminum masts. When I said training in seawater, very high salt-content water will corrode aluminum. The amount of sweat that your mengane is exposed to doesn't equal that of direct contact with seawater. In other words, your mengane will not corrode for an extremely long time. The second thing is that aluminum is stronger than bamboo. It is unlikely that the mengane will break from a shinai hitting it. It will, in the most extreme conditions, get partially bent.

Well, there are a couple of pieces to this :D

First, when and if the grilles are bent, there are increased chances where the shinai stave can go through and do bad things :D

Second, while bamboo is weaker than aluminum, grille and grille in headbutt?

Besides, can't water erode the cliff?

I've seen bent and broken grilles at my old dojo...as for from "what", that I can't say, since I wasn't there when it broke :D

[Curtis]

As for what IBB stands for, there are many explanations to the acronym...the one I heard is "ideal best balance".
Yes straight from the Koei catalog, ideal best balance in katakana.

I started kendo using the nickle-iron mengane. Felt like you had a rock tied to the front of your face.

I have a set with the IBB Titanium mengane. I love it. It is very comfortable and it feels like I have nothing on my face. I also have duralumin, and regular titanium. The difference is small but I feel more comfort with the IBB. The duralumin does not seem to have as much shock absorption. Titanium can withstand more than twice the force of duralumin, 25.3Kg vs 11.5Kg if I read the catalog right.

Every one of my men have been subject to some bending of the top bars. I had to take a hammer and piece of wood and straighten the one and it was nickle-iron.


I have a Hasegawa men and it actually vibrates when someone hits men during drills. They are not hitting hard, but with less horizontal bars it has less mass to absorb the shock. I really like the vision it gives for keiko though. My opponents complain it is a little unnerving to see the whole face.

[DCPan]

I have a set with the IBB Titanium mengane.


Hi sensei,

What's the difference between IBB Titanium and the IBB Titanium PRO? Which one of the two do you have?



The duralumin does not seem to have as much shock absorption. Titanium can withstand more than twice the force of duralumin, 25.3Kg vs 11.5Kg if I read the catalog right.

I suspected the same.... I remember feeling that way when I first switched to dura-aluminum....

:D

[Curtis]

What's the difference between IBB Titanium and the IBB Titanium PRO? Which one of the two do you have?:D
I have wondered that myself besides the cost. I will have to ask Koei.

I have the standard IBB and I will never go back to the regular ones.

[Jamie]

What sort of money would you expect to pay for a machine-stitched men with a IBB Dura-Aluminium mengane? The only ones I can find are about £500 which is a bit rich for my blood.

[DCPan]

What sort of money would you expect to pay for a machine-stitched men with a IBB Dura-Aluminium mengane? The only ones I can find are about £500 which is a bit rich for my blood.

Well,

Looking at my 2004 Mori Budogu Catalog, it would appear that a 5mm machine-gonome-sashi men with IBB Dura-Aluminum Grille retails at 38000yen.

So, if you can wait for a sale or have a dojo discount....

The real problem is if you want nice stitching width with it, it'll probably be a custom job as most bogu at that level would come with the titanium version, for marketing reasons if nothing else.

:D "Still can't decide whether I'll ever wear titanium again"

[streetcleaner]

What sort of money would you expect to pay for a machine-stitched men with a IBB Dura-Aluminium mengane?

kendoshop.com has IBB mengane. look at this
http://kendoshop.com/eshop/index.php?mode=subdetail&num=33&flag=catedetail

in a PRICE dropdown you can see the prices for IBB mens - 327$ for a IBB 2 mm men and 479$ for a IBB Pro 2 mm men.

[tantadi]

In my 2004 Mori Budogu Catalog, the 5 mm set (M-340) has a IBB mengane at 21500 yen. I might get that set, or MC-35. It is not that expensive compared to other brands, I think.

[Jamie]

Thanks for all the replies!

[amatsuda]

I have a set with the IBB Titanium mengane. I love it. It is very comfortable and it feels like I have nothing on my face. I also have duralumin, and regular titanium. The difference is small but I feel more comfort with the IBB. The duralumin does not seem to have as much shock absorption. Titanium can withstand more than twice the force of duralumin, 25.3Kg vs 11.5Kg if I read the catalog right.

I agree. IBB is the way to go especially for those who have previously injured their neck through other sports or auto accidents.

IBB is also the best for those long kyoka renshus when even the muscles in your neck become fatigued....it's the same weight, but feels a lot lighter because of the center of gravity of the mengane...

amatsuda
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/sjkendo

[Hai_hai]

On a bit of different slant, my head doesn't go in as deep into the front of the men as other people. That would put more of the weight forward then if my face was closer to the mengane. But, my men doesn't feel front heavy.