Tsuki

[sungmin]

Hi All,

I am still a beginner but I think Tsuki is very cool technic. How long should I wait to practice Tsuki ???

[Odachi]

First chance you get..especially if you are just doing men hits on a motodachi. Just imagin the surprised look they will have: then everyone will laugh and laugh.....:)

No seriously, it is an advanced skill only to be attempted when Sensai says so.

[mystic_kendoka]

i think at about shodan you should start..

[Will]

forget being shodan, only when your sensei says so...there are a lot of bad shodans out there that shouldn't be doing tsuki....

and even then, you need to use your judgment of when to practice tsuki. btw, just b/c your sensei has the class practice tsuki, it doesn't mean he wants you to do it.

[mystic_kendoka]

i guess.. but no matter how good i wouldnt say it is safe to try before shodan, i guess sensei knows best :)

[Pauly]

forget being shodan, only when your sensei says so...there are a lot of bad shodans out there that shouldn't be doing tsuki....

and even then, you need to use your judgment of when to practice tsuki. btw, just b/c your sensei has the class practice tsuki, it doesn't mean he wants you to do it.
I agree with Will, sexy member. Shodan is not a level that permits you to do advanced techniques. You should really concentrate on getting good men. It's the most fundamental and, in my opinion, the hardest.

For tsuki, it's cool, yes. We practice it occasionally but only the higher ranking students (3rd dan and above) actually use it during keiko. And even this is rare. I would never think about using it myself. Kind of a hands-off feeling. I'll wait for the sensei to say when...

[mystic_kendoka]

i wouldnt mind using it, since its a two pointer and all, but its dangerous/painful for the person ur using it on, if you miss... so i've never used it in jigeiko/shiai...

[sungmin]

I got the point !!! I should practice more Men !!! Great to have such great advise from around the world !!!

[Yann]

Ok I am very new to kendo too, and I didn't know there were some "order" concerning the technics you are taught. I thought that all the men, do, kote, tsuki technics were basic ones.

Now you say first you leanr Men, then.. what ? I'd like to know the usual order, please.
Thanks ;)

[mystic_kendoka]

ther are usually taught at the same time, its just different ways to execute them that you are taught at different times...

[Yann]

Ah ok thanks mystic_kendoka...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Normally you learn men, then you learn men some more, then after that you practice men for a while. Later on you learn kote and doh. If you can do men properly, kote and doh aren't too hard.

[isi]

i wouldnt mind using it, since its a two pointer and all, but its dangerous/painful for the person ur using it on, if you miss... so i've never used it in jigeiko/shiai...


What do you mean by "two pointer"?

[mystic_kendoka]

its worth 2 points, in a judged match, who ever wins 2 points wins, so to win, you need to score men/kote/do two times, but if u score tsuki once you have won the match, it is worth 2 points...

[Neil Gendzwill]

its worth 2 points, in a judged match, who ever wins 2 points wins, so to win, you need to score men/kote/do two times, but if u score tsuki once you have won the match, it is worth 2 points...
No, it's worth one point, same as any other target.

[mystic_kendoka]

it IS? i mean, i cant ask if you're sure since you ARE a sensei... but i always thought it was a 2 pointer...

[Neil Gendzwill]

it IS? i mean, i cant ask if you're sure since you ARE a sensei... but i always thought it was a 2 pointer...
Well, it's at least twice as hard to get as any other point :) but yes, I'm sure.

[mystic_kendoka]

then, in the ishujiai video (kendo-world media), who won? the kenshi or the naginataka? i always thought, the kendoka scored 1 men, and then the naginatata won by tsuki... but if it is only one point...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Sorry, haven't seen that video.

[nonamehandle]

mystic kendoka,

the men that you thought was by the kendo player, was actually a debana kote by the naginata player.

the vid is found on the kendo-world download section

[mystic_kendoka]

oh... ill look at it more closely next time, but that is very demoralizing, the naginataka raped the kendoka... hmm...

[orayakab]

it IS? i mean, i cant ask if you're sure since you ARE a sensei... but i always thought it was a 2 pointer...

Tsuki is one point.

This isn't like basketball where you score extra points by shooting from the 3 point line...

Orayakab, U.

[samurai999]

just b/c your sensei has the class practice tsuki, it doesn't mean he wants you to do it.

True, but what is the point of learning something if you don't utilize it as part of your "bag of tricks"?

Tim

[Bleda]

oh... ill look at it more closely next time, but that is very demoralizing, the naginataka raped the kendoka... hmm...
Sad part is an equal naginata vs an equal swordsman is going to end 9 out of 10 times with the naginata winning. The weapon has to be the finest infantry weapon created by japan.

[Stimpson J. Cat]

Sad part is an equal naginata vs an equal swordsman is going to end 9 out of 10 times with the naginata winning. The weapon has to be the finest infantry weapon created by japan.
The situation was similar in Europe, by the late middle ages, the poleaxe had been developed and knights on foot usually left the sword in it's scabbard and fought with a poleaxe, somewhat different in design than the naginata since it was developed to overcome different armor, but with a similar purpose.

Staff weapons worked against them when mounted as well, before gunpowder delivered the final blow in driving the fully armored knight from the field of battle, their effectiveness had already be greatly reduced by infantry using improved staff weapons (poleaxes/halbreds/bills) and techniques.

Does anybody know if that situation was similar between Europe and Japan as well? Was the elite (mounted?) warrior losing his dominance of the battlefield as weapons and techniques used by troops from lower social classes improved?

[Will]

True, but what is the point of learning something if you don't utilize it as part of your "bag of tricks"?

Tim

When i said class, I meant class as a whole, so some people in it shouldn't be practicing it.

but yes, you should utilize your bag of tricks.

[sungmin]

ok, I have been learing Ji-Keiko last three weeks. Forget about Tsugi, I realize that my men-uchi sucks big time. Forget about Kote, my men-uchi shit. Do ? I am not even thinking about Do. Men, men, men, men, men, men. men.......

[not-I]

The weapon has to be the finest infantry weapon created by japan.That thing is evil. The wicked sword on a stick!
No wonder Shogun: Total War puts a cap on them by having them stomp around in heavy armor. :wink:

Where were we? Oh yeah....
men, men, men, men, men, men....

[Hai_hai]

... The weapon has to be the finest infantry weapon created by japan.

Actually, I am the finest infantry weapon created by Japan....

Mecha-Hai_hai

[Bleda]

The situation was similar in Europe, by the late middle ages, the poleaxe had been developed and knights on foot usually left the sword in it's scabbard and fought with a poleaxe, somewhat different in design than the naginata since it was developed to overcome different armor, but with a similar purpose.

Staff weapons worked against them when mounted as well, before gunpowder delivered the final blow in driving the fully armored knight from the field of battle, their effectiveness had already be greatly reduced by infantry using improved staff weapons (poleaxes/halbreds/bills) and techniques.

Does anybody know if that situation was similar between Europe and Japan as well? Was the elite (mounted?) warrior losing his dominance of the battlefield as weapons and techniques used by troops from lower social classes improved?

This is exactly what happened actually Stimpy. As more and more ashagiri <sic> (the peasant and lower class infantry) began to appear weilding yari the horses began to become less and less as relied upon. Unlike europe though the japanese did not utilze the polearm extensively rather elite troops were often trained in their arts since it was very difficult to master and even then were utilzed against the infantry.

A big deciding factor in this difference b/w japan and europe is that asian horses tend to be smaller and unable to bare as much weight thus forcing its rider to be less heavily armored as compared to a western knight. In turn a mounted rider was very susceptible to the archery skills of the samurai while the yari weilding soldiers held them at bay.

[Dave Fowler]

Getting somewhat back on topic, I have been told that for my san-dan grading in a few years I should start practicing tsuki drills, with a bit of a twist. I think it's to work on something else and this is the way to do it, but tsuki will be my friend for the next while :)

[Phil]

When i said class, I meant class as a whole, so some people in it shouldn't be practicing it.

but yes, you should utilize your bag of tricks.


In naginata you need to be 18 years old and shodan to practice tsuki
(but i think you can practice it on mudansha ^^) in kendo it should be the same?


++

Phil

[Masahiro]

hmmm, you know, the japanese senseis I know are almost the same way. They are very happy to teach students shodan and above tsuki techniques. I think their logic is if you don't practice, you will never know how to do it. But, as for me. ..my men strike still isn't very good. I don't think I will be thinking about anything else besides men uchi for a while.

[nonamehandle]

In naginata you need to be 18 years old and shodan to practice tsuki
(but i think you can practice it on mudansha ^^) in kendo it should be the same?


++

Phil


just making sure, you do mean yudansha right?
yudan-with dan
mudan-without dan

for what its worth, i only practice tsuki with yudansha

[Phil]

arf it was a joke... sorry :ko:

(for everyone! don t practice on mudansha it could be dangerous and they will try also so!! only on Yudansha)

[samurai999]

I think it is more of a "are you ready to learn" issue for me. If a person has no seme, bad mechanics, etc, then they should just be doing men and kote. Forget do even.

Tim

[Zaphiel]

hey guys

just wondered: is tsuki technically a cut or a thrust?