women and do

[reicheru]

Ok, if the boys could discuss "freedom kendo" on this forum, then I don't see why I can't bring up this subject as well (although I realize I'm setting myself up for some potentially chugakksei-like responses).

I'm, er, fairly well endowed on top, unlike most Japanese women and definitely unlike most kendoka. I was just at a college gasshuku for a few days, and I noticed that none of the girls there even wore a bra under their keikogi. There is no way I could do that! My problem therefore is that my do doesn't fit quite right -- it sticks out a bit more than it should. I think this affects my kamai. I've had a number of sensei try to correct my kamai, but it's really difficult for me to get my arms in the right place because my do is in the way. Does anyone else have this problem or know a solution (other than breast reduction surgery -- though believe me I've considered it)?

Rachel

[qpuppy]

heya reicheru.....

hmmm that is a new topic to think about.... no offence in anyway.... of course to us ( the guys ) we dont have that problem.
just a suggestion, since I have dont know what it feels like, but have you consider that the do might be tied abit tight? or even maybe getting a larger do?

hehhehe.. just wondering.. I wonder what club would that be.... most girls dont wear bra.. hmmm interesting.. hehhehe.. j/k j/k..... :P

But yes.. maybe try loosing the do himo a little more so it has abit of room to move or try a larger do....

Al

[mingshi]

Hi there Rachel,

You see, obviously the Do isn't designed for the use of female kendoka (er, with ...bigger chest). This is something worth considering if they'd ever try modernizing the Bogu.

In the changing room I've heard numerous complain on some male kendoka, who had made some thrusts on their Do's Mune (probably not intentionally, but)... From what they've described... It hurts.

Because unlike Western Fencing, female players don't have the coconut-shape chest protection gear, there is nothing you can do. Just like the case of Freedom Kendo, a piece of cloth on a bra wouldn't help much. Other sportswomen wear the athletic-type bra for support. But it may or may not be necessary.

As for the Do effecting Kamae...I don't think it's the Do's fault. You've to adjust the Himo properly. Especially those on your shoulders because you can choose to tie them higher or lower to fit your chest. For the Himo around my waist I tend to tie it tight, so that the Do wouldn't move around so much.

Well, the only active female user of the forum left is Confound, who would provide other useful advice....

[CypherSushi]

That is not entirely true... I am female and have recently become active too... :)

I haven't experienced the problems with the do getting in the way of my camae but I have on the other hand had a sempai who hit very high do-cuts... he had done som iaido and thought that the cut should end high, problem is that's where my breasts are.... Specially since the do presses them out to the side a bit. That is pain!
Have anyone else experienced this?

[KhawMengLee]

Yes.

Not only girls get this pain. Once during Jigeiko my opponent tried a Do cut but it was high and clipped my nipple between his shinai and my mune/chestguard. Arrrggghhh....

At my dojo for the beginners we do a tsuki thrust to the chest instead of throat. Usually its Tsuki-men


MENG

[supernils]

This summer i participated in the "World University Student Kendo Gathering" in Tokyo. There we had the opportunity to meet a highly skilled Bogu manufacturer. He described the differences between male and female bogu, gi and hakama. The differences was actually quite big allthough I cannot remember them all now. One problem is that this mans bogu was super expencive, like 20.000 dollars and more. There must be cheaper stuff though.

[kendo_chick]

Well, for all the women here, I am basically the biggest in the chest that you can get and still buy bras in a normal store. I find it very difficult for my do to fit. However, what I have been doing is once I bought my own bogu, I bend the do just a little where the leather meets the actual striking area of the do, this gives a little bit of a curve and therefore bends around my breasts just a little better.

As for female bogu. I can't seem to find anywhere online (and therefore accessible to me) that sells female bogu. The only way that I can see so far is to try and get your measurements almost exact and ask the maker to try and be more generous in the top portion of the do.

[CypherSushi]

e-bogu.com sells female bogu, at least they have one in the clearence section which should mean that they actually have female bogu's for sale....

They are still a bit expensive for me though :)

[Simon Chien]

My wife told me that when she was in the school ( all female student ) , her teacher ( in sports , also a female ) said using a very long cloth ( over 3 meter long and around 30 cm wide ) to wrap around the top tightly during exercise for a few girls who's , er , well endowed on top.

[harpaclark]

I've found a sportsbra -- "SportsJock" (made in US, but available in Europe) -- that straps you down and is certainly much more comfortable than wrapping a cloth around your chest.

I've also noticed that strapping down does seem to make those high Do cuts hurt a bit less...

[CypherSushi]

I would image that is does... I am a poor student so i haven't had the money to buy a proper sportsbra just yet... I could have bought a cheap bad one, but I don't think it would have done me any good... right now I use a tightfitting tanktop instead, it works for stability but not for the high hitting do cuts :)

[reicheru]

I have several nice sports bras that hold me in as much as possible; the one I like the best is made by Moving Comfort and specially designed for "full breasted" women. But you could put me in the best sports bra available or wrap me in as much cloth as you want and I'd still be shaped much differently than most of my kendo peers, male or female. As for the pain from do cuts, yeah it hurts like hell sometimes and I've even had bruises on my breasts before, but then again I've had lots of other bruises too so that part doesn't usually bother me too much -- I'm more concerned with my kamae at the moment. I've tried adjusting the himo, but whether I ties it higher or lower it still never fits right. I guess I'll try bending it a bit as kendo-chick suggested, and just suck it up and wait until they start making do "specially designed for full breasted women" as well as sports bras!

Rachel

[CypherSushi]

About bruises, I realised now that the new term has begun that I am more resistant to bruises than I was before... The one time i got full hit on the breast with the missed do cut I had only trained for a few weeks... the drawback was that I almost got scared of opening up to a do cut when we where training basics...
Tha same guy that did that cut was later so afraid of doing the same thing again that he hit me on the hip instead, and gave me another painful bruise :D

[gill]

This was a topic of quite a lot of discussion at our seminar in the UK a couple of weeks ago. Without wanting to scare-monger being hit too often on the breast is actually dangerous, as it causes a changing of the fibre of the breast tissue - and increases the risk of breast cancer.

I am not medical, but I have started looking into this recently after being on the receiving end of some extremely painful do cuts (actually almost all by the same person - but thats a new topic altogether ) The danger is actually the same for the men - but generally the target is much smaller. (although you do get the odd bloke who could probably do with a sports bra....)

I have been looking into different types of Sports Bras, and have found them to be a very worthwhile investment - the Berlei shock absorber range being particularly good. I have found trying to flatten the target as much as possible to be the best option for me - and it also helps the do fit better. kendo chicks Do bending suggestion is also a good one.

The problem with protective equipment (ie 'coconuts') is that you could end up with a lot of damage during tai-atari, and they could do more harm than good.

I am going to have an experiment with padding round the sides (although this is not condusive to reducing the target - it's big enough already....!) the other idea I have had is to use the flexible plastic type stuff that is on wrist and elbow guards.

I'll let you know how I get on.

At the end of the day, for the moment we need to educate people to the dangers of striking wildly at do - especially when they are fighting women, and do our best as a group to find the best protection - be it a change in the do, or some type of personal armour.

Hope I haven't scared anyone too much - perhaps the best response if a guy gets you in the tits is to offer to whack him in his sensitive area if he does it again - they'll soon get the message!!!!

Cheers!!

Gill

[saki_wooah]

I experienced the pain of some very high do... but they all excused themselves and now their do is better (even if they hit very low/too low for now). I tried different sizes of Do, and with a bigger one, I have some problems doing kamae properly. Now I have a small one (it's the last small one that I didn't break a himo on it, and I hope it will last...) and it's a lot more easier with it. for the bra problem, I use a very elastic/stretching one, like the ones for young teenagers, and it fits me well. I have no problems with them, and they are cheaper than the sport ones.
I'd like to ask you some questions: how many girls/women are practising kendo in your dojo (like someone who has practice a while with a bogu and experienced the pain with it)? Do you have a female sensei? And do you have a junior team or something like that? I'm the only one under 15 (the maximum age for the junior category in Canada... I think so...)...

[A. Henriksson]

Every woman in my dojo who has used bogu have tied their do very high, to better fit their body I guess. But this also means that the strike doesn´t have to be high over the bottom of the do to hit the breasts. I´m not saying it´s their fault for tying the do high, just that it can be hard not to hit there. At first I didn´t even think of that when we started having female kenshi at the dojo but now I always take care not to hit them with high do.

Speaking of genderbound pain by misplaced do - I once saw a woman in my dojo hit a guy with a very low do so her sakigawa struck right on his... :eek:

[saki_wooah]

Originally posted by A. Henriksson
Every woman in my dojo who has used bogu have tied their do very high, to better fit their body I guess. But this also means that the strike doesn´t have to be high over the bottom of the do to hit the breasts. I´m not saying it´s their fault for tying the do high, just that it can be hard not to hit there. At first I didn´t even think of that when we started having female kenshi at the dojo but now I always take care not to hit them with high do.

Speaking of genderbound pain by misplaced do - I once saw a woman in my dojo hit a guy with a very low do so her sakigawa struck right on his... :eek:


I don't like tying the Do very high cause all it will do is increase the number of hits under the do... :(


aouch... was it revenge or what...?

[Curtis]

Dear Rachel,

Even though I am a male I can sympathize with your situation. A correct fitting doh for my wife and female students is always a concern.

My advice is to get a sports bra that will help some. The best you can do on the doh is if at some time if you have an opportunity is to try several on and pick the one that best fits.

I have one more solution that will help protect you. We have for some time been using thin sheets of neoprene to help fit the men for kids, usually 3 to 6mm thick. The kendo men pads you can buy are often too thick. I was attending a regular practice where my armpit and chest were getting bruised every practice. Mostly it was during the drills that this occurred. After 26 years of kendo I decided I was tired of this. During jigeiko it is not a problem as I can keep it from happening. I took a piece of tare name cloth (nafuda) and sewed a pocket on the inside of my keikogi to cover the area from where the doh curves down to around my side. The pocket lets me slip the neoprene in from the top so it stays in place and take it out for separate washing. It measures about 10cm by 20cm. End of bruises to my side and chest area. Best thing is you can’t tell it’s in there. At one time I saw a keikogi in a Japanese kendo catalog with pads sewn in.

This is quite a serious matter for women. I know of a woman who suffered a hematoma to her breast from a hard hit and was out of practice for some time.

I know that this does not address exactly your problem with a correct kamae. As long as it works for you then it’s fine. Everyone’s kamae is a little different. Hope this is a help to you and others.

Sincerely, Curtis

[Confound]

Two things:

Careful with stuff marked 'female bogu' sometimes it refers only to the colour. Some good old fashioned folks still think that women shoudl wear white and red. (Those are the ugliest bogu colours i've ever seen, looks like a paper wrapped splatted tomatoe.)

Secondly, may i suggest wearing a bra without underwire that us slightly smaller than your normal size in the cup? It will be slightly uncomfortable at first, but you'll get used to it.

Or we could always go bakc to the custom of binding breasts. It seemed to work well for women impersonating young men...

c

[kendo_chick]

Originally posted by saki_wooah
I'd like to ask you some questions: how many girls/women are practising kendo in your dojo (like someone who has practice a while with a bogu and experienced the pain with it)? Do you have a female sensei? And do you have a junior team or something like that? I'm the only one under 15 (the maximum age for the junior category in Canada... I think so...)...

Our dojo has only around 4 female kendoka at the moment, but there is the prospect of a few more. I am the highest ranking female in my dojo at the moment. We used to have a 3rd dan, but alas there were political problems and she decided not to return. We do not have a junior team at our dojo, but we do have several junior members, none of which at the moment are female however.

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee
Yes.

Not only girls get this pain. Once during Jigeiko my opponent tried a Do cut but it was high and clipped my nipple between his shinai and my mune/chestguard. Arrrggghhh....

At my dojo for the beginners we do a tsuki thrust to the chest instead of throat. Usually its Tsuki-men


MENG

Mmmmm ah....... Trying hard not to let my imagination run wild.... BUt how Did those beginners of yours get their shinai between your nipple and mune ?? I would had thought Mune already protected your nipple, unless the shinai was inserted in from the side ....... That won't call Do cut..... that will call special Tsuki.... Can't really imagine how ......

[KhawMengLee]

Nah, the tsuki men is a totally different cut. I was talking about how the DO moves during practice and sometimes the mune doesn't cover my (ahem) and when they do a bad DO cut....

[qpuppy]

hmmm.... Meng.. I think that means you are wearing your do too loose... Beside... your club member should have told you during training

[Raiza]

Hi there,

Since I was intrigued by the comments regarding a link between breast trauma and breast cancer, I decided to do a little looking to see if, in fact, this was the case.

Not until recently has there been any genuine attempt to look at breast trauma as a significant factor in breast cancer. In the June 2002 edition of the European Journal of Cancer Prevention, a study of approximately 200 women of ages 50-65 reporting breast trauma in the past five years were, on average, 3 times more likely to develop breast carcinoma. However, the range of the difference was a 30% greater likelihood to a 1000.8% greater likelihood, when looking at the statistics. In short, significant breast trauma (i.e. seatbelt injuries, horse bites) places a woman at increased risk of developing breast cancer. Granted, the size of the study was pretty small and the women were postmenopausal, but the result is one that should definitely be looked at further. Keep in mind that the injuries are pretty serious in nature. Infortunately, there's no such equivalent study for men.
You can check out the link here to the summary of the study:
http://www.eurjcancerprev.com/article.asp?ISSN=0959-8278&VOL=11&ISS=3&PAGE=307

Now, before us ladies decide to throw away our shinais, I have this to add. There has been an equally large (or small, depending on your point of view) study in Japan on women to determine whether moderate exercise does reduce the risk of breast cancer. Indeed, it does, and women (29-65) who perform moderate exercise are, on average, 63% LESS likely (range is from 27-83% less) to develop breast cancer as those who do not exercise. Since kendo is a prevalent physical activity in Japan, it doesn't appear that it's affecting breast cancer rates in a significant manner. Yes, until the arrival of regular dietary intakes of dairy products, Japanese women were, uh, less endowed (no offense intended!), but still, there appears to be a beneficial effect to regular moderate exercise.
I couldn't get the link for the Japanese study, but here's the citation. It's also a small study so you can place just as much significance on that one as the one described previously
Uegi et al., 1998. Physical activity and the risk of breast cancer: a case-control study of Japanese women. Journal of Epidemiology 8(2):116-122.

So I'm not going to be throwing away my shinai anytime soon. The kenshi in my dojo are great and such accidents are always apologized for and I really haven't been hit there very much at all-it's usually my butt, but that's ok. I think if everyone is conscientious about making proper do and are encouraged to do so, then the overal risk is not large enough to make me want to give up kendo. I risk myself far more by taking public transit.

I hope I've been able to shed a little light on the subject.

Raiza
"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"

[reicheru]

Raiza,

Thanks for doing the research! I'm not too worried about the cancer risk -- I agree, I have many riskier habits than kendo (and it's not *that* often that I come home with bruised breasts anyway).

Meanwhile, I tried bending my do a bit with limited success... so I guess for now I'll just stick to what I've always been doing, and maybe someday when I have a little more money I'll look into getting a custom-made do that fits me better.


it's usually my butt, but that's ok
um... what strike would that be?

:) Rachel

[Raiza]

Hm, since I'm generally referring to the side of my hip, which is technically part of my behind, that sort of technique would be a misdirected hiki-do. A *really* misdirected hiki-do. :P

Doesn't happen so much lately though, like once a month, so no big deal.

[JSchmidt]

I get whacked over the knee at least once a month :)


Jakob

[Kendoboy]

I'm not a girl, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but the best sugestion I've heard so far is the bending, so maybe you could do the same as breaking in a new baseball glove, and stick a couple coconuts behind the mune, then stick the top flat part under your mattress or something. or maybe it would work better for you if you make the mune follow the curve of the target area of the do, so it's more like the "coconut shaped" chest protector of european fencing. The female dos you speak of (e-bogu) are definetly coloured differently only, not cut differently, so the only options you have (since the sports bras are apparently not a huge help) are a custom cut do ($$$$$) or to try and make the one you have conform to your body better. But like I said, I'm not a girl so......

[kendo_chick]

Bending is the only thing that I have found to work so far. I am very well endowed (we are talking in the DD range here). I also got custom made bogu (all in total 2.5mm stitching $900) and it fits me much better then any other do ever has. I got it made so that the actual "bamboo" part (mine is SO not bamboo!) is larger and the sides are cut higher and wider. It squishes my chest in a little and it somewhat protects hits on the side.

[Kendoka]

Originally posted by reicheru
My problem therefore is that my do doesn't fit quite right -- it sticks out a bit more than it should.

Rachel, the do design is different for men and women, just like for jeans and shirts etc.

Unfortunately for a lot of female kendoka, most do's around are for males. Next time your dojo is inline for some handout kendogu, mention the need for dos that suit the female form.

And take care until then.

Richard

[don_lubo]

Excuse me but first of all Kendo is not for the womens
Kendo-chick-WHAT IS THAT NAME??????

[CypherSushi]

I think I am going to leave you idiocy to be trashed by some of the other females that are more familiar with the english language....

*shakes head*

[mingshi]

Great Post Mr. Don_lubo. You just launched an official challenge against 10 million female Kendoka on the entire planet. Meanwhile enjoy being sneered in the KW forum. Wish you would be in Japan someday and visit one keiko of the Riot Squad Policewomen...

BTW I do recommand people to sign their post properly. But I don't know what Don_lubo means anyway.

[CypherSushi]

Oh, I would like to thank you don_lubo... I now have something to focus my zanshin on when I do Iaido. Thank you...

[AlexM]

don_lubo are you kidding?

Women are the reason I do kendo.

Without them our dojo would be:
1) Poorly organised
2) Less fun
3) Devoid of Japanese speakers
4) Devoid of flirting (its just not the same between men)
5) Nowhere near as good as it could be. The women in our dojo seem to have such nice, elegant and proficient kendo compared to the guys' version.

Do you perhaps prefer the company of men? (Not that there's anything wrong with that).
Your post is the most "flammable" I've seen on the board so far. I've got to assume you're just trying to provoke people (you can't be that closed minded).

[burger boy]

don_lubo,

First off, I think kendo-chick is a very cool name.

Secondly, you live under a rock, right?

Third, my sensei is a woman who has amazing skills.
If I can learn just a fraction of what she knows about
kendo I will consider myself very fortunate.


- burger boy

[Tato]

Ehemm.

Don_lubo, the problem is that there're not enough woman doing Kendo. So please keep this kind of childish crap for yourself (under the rock where you lives).

By the way, I think great that we the guys defend that the girls can do Kendo (and meny times better than us). World still has some chance of being a nice place to live in.

Rei (yes, even to you Don Lubo).

[Alex]

This thread has been reported. Don-lubo, as moderator I think you are entitled to your opinions, but common sense would suggest that you are way out of line by publicising this particular segregative remark.

Shobu Ari!

Lets get back to the original topic.

:angry:

[Confound]

*off topic warning *
Glad to know I'm not the only one with a bruised butt. How about the backs of the thighs? Some bruises there. For the curious, those bruises come from the 'follow-through slap' employed by some senseis to encourage you to move just a little faster. used to send me pinwheeling across the dojo floor...

c

[Ares2907]

One might suggest that those bruises may be avoided by moving just a little faster :p

As for bruises - hey it's damn hard to get a proper do on all you short people. Just as soon as I become king of the world, I am going to impose a new rule that short people have to do kendo with stilts.

You might at least have the decency to lift your arms when you see us winding up ;)

*suddenly pictures self holding a suburi-to and pointing to the high dojo window - Babe Ruth style*

[Confound]

Ares,

i move faster now, but when i started, it was hard to sit down some days. now it's hard to sit because of iaidou... stupid yonhon me. it leaves my ankles sore for a day or two.

as for the short people... they have their uses. it's really easy to hit kote or men on short people, but I hate it when they're really short (elementary school kids), and they get so close that I can't see them without bending over. that's a little annoying.

c

[Ares2907]

as for yonhonme - I have a feeling that kata was intended to be done in battle-dress. I did it once whilst wearing sune - it was really quite comfortable. Perhaps you could take to wearing them under your hakama - I assume you'll get used to it in time.

As for elementary school kids, they're so cute. When you push them over, they slide along the dojo floor like upended turtles.

A

[inner_cent]

Originally posted by Ares2907

As for elementary school kids, they're so cute. When you push them over, they slide along the dojo floor like upended turtles.

A

Man... you are cruel !!!!......
They are cute.... but they sre after all, children.

[JSchmidt]

"*suddenly pictures self holding a suburi-to and pointing to the high dojo window - Babe Ruth style*"

The moment I read that I had the mental image of some nutter pointing up to the sky, Babe Ruth style and promptly recieves 20 tsuki's :)

Jakob

[don_lubo]

Anyway, I think Kendo is NOT for women because they are too risorganized and they don't take Shiai seriously. And also, it is a well known fact that a 1-dan-man can easily defeat a 4-dan woman (unless ofcourse she's japaneese). So i'm kindly going to ask all women on this forum to get rid of their issues in their own dojos. I just shared my opinion, there's no need for everybody to stand against me. Women deserve respect, but not in Kendo.

[JSchmidt]

You gotta be trolling...that or extremly stupid.

Jakob

[Kent Enfield]

Originally posted by don_lubo
Anyway, I think Kendo is NOT for women because they are too risorganized and they don't take Shiai seriously. And also, it is a well known fact that a 1-dan-man can easily defeat a 4-dan woman (unless ofcourse she's japaneese). So i'm kindly going to ask all women on this forum to get rid of their issues in their own dojos. I just shared my opinion, there's no need for everybody to stand against me. Women deserve respect, but not in Kendo. You, sir, are an idiot. Have you ever trained with a woman? Or even talked to one?

[mingshi]

Dear Mr. Don_lubo,

Sometimes we do need people like you in the KW Forum. People like you can be so entertaining.

Anyway, I think Kendo is NOT for women because they are too risorganized
No, YOU are too "risorganized"!! I'm not dyslexic, so do some spell check, Mr. Disorganize!

and they don't take Shiai seriously.
You take shiai seriously?? Hmmm...Get well soon!

And also, it is a well known fact that a 1-dan-man can easily defeat a 4-dan woman
The "well known fact" works in the other way round. Meanwhile what do you actually mean by "defeat"? People having a higher grade or more experienced ALWAYS let beginners cut them!! Senpai always give out opportunities. In your terms I've technically DEFEAT a couple of Nanadan Sensei (male), both outside dojo and in Beer Keiko.

(unless ofcourse she's japaneese).
That's very much a racial discrimination. Another of your "well known fact"??

So i'm kindly going to ask all women on this forum to get rid of their issues in their own dojos. I just shared my opinion, there's no need for everybody to stand against me. Women deserve respect, but not in Kendo.
"But not in Kendo"....?????? Kendo=Respect!!!

Your post sound totally illogical. YOU are reason why many women start doing Kendo.

Lol.

[gill]

Originally posted by don_lubo
Anyway, I think Kendo is NOT for women because they are too risorganized and they don't take Shiai seriously. And also, it is a well known fact that a 1-dan-man can easily defeat a 4-dan woman (unless ofcourse she's japaneese). So i'm kindly going to ask all women on this forum to get rid of their issues in their own dojos. I just shared my opinion, there's no need for everybody to stand against me. Women deserve respect, but not in Kendo.

Don Lubo, anytime you wish to prove this theory of yours just let me know

Gill (4th Dan, Non-Japanese)

[Confound]

Ares: Amen about those little elementary school kids. They look more like Kappa then turtles to me, their heads are too big to be turtles!

As for you, Mr. Lubo: I will be pleased to take you to the cleaners at any time. Please, come to miyagi-ken, and I will show you why women deserve respect in kendou. If I can't take you to the cleaners, then I'm sure my go-dan sempai will be more than happy to show you why women in kendou deserve respect.

I have seen a fifth dan woman take on men of higher level, and the same level, and win, consistently. I have seen young girls, not even at the sho-dan level, who can take on males of greater level, and win without breaking a sweat. There are many accomplished female kendouka.

As for 'Japanese-ness' .. Let me invite you to come live over here, Mr. Lubo. Your racist and sexist views would be very well accepted by the Japanese. You'd fit right in.

c

ps - Huzzah to that Mingshi, and as for Gill, beat him over the head a few times. might knock some sense into him! (However, i've never seen any upper yudansha talk that way, he may not even be worth your time, probably isn't even ranked.)

[sjp]

My money is on Gill

Don Lubo ..... she did not get yondan just for turning up on the day. She is a seriously good kendoka and I have seen her beat most of the guys in the UK over the last few years.

You want to be very careful what you post on a public forum as i am sure everyone will be looking for your zekken in the future.

As for women in the UK , George has a point we need more of them and at higher grades, Gill is leading the way since Liz Dutton left for NZ. I fenced Liz on several occasions was soundly thrashed but she was really helpful and taught me a great deal.

[Tato]

Just to point that I'm with the girls, and happy with this unanimity against Don Lubo posting's.

I already told in another place how important are girls in my dojo, I only suspect that Don Lubo lacks experience with the approiate people.

Rei

[CypherSushi]

Dear don_lubo
If your share your opinion you have to realise that people will tell you theirs. Why would you othervice even bother to take the few seconds to write down your opinion in the first place?

and just FYI... I would really like to get a second opinion on the fact of a fourth-dan female getting beat by a firts dan male. Any of the higher graded females care to enlighten us... or maybe a first dan male?

[CypherSushi]

and once again I post without reading the rest of the responeses. *wacks herself over the head a few times*

darn it! *smile*

[don_lubo]

First off, Gill,
In this forum there's an unwritten tradition that noone should share his grade with the world as you did. I promise you that one day we'll meet each other.

SJP, my zekken says:
MUSSO
japaneese glyph for MUSSO
L. Sagaev

Kent Enfield: You, sir, are an idiot. Have you ever trained with a woman? Or even talked to one? calling people "idiots" on the forum will get you far. You should get banned.

[KhawMengLee]

Anyway, I think Kendo is NOT for women because they are too risorganized and they don't take Shiai seriously. And also, it is a well known fact that a 1-dan-man can easily defeat a 4-dan woman (unless ofcourse she's japaneese). So i'm kindly going to ask all women on this forum to get rid of their issues in their own dojos. I just shared my opinion, there's no need for everybody to stand against me. Women deserve respect, but not in Kendo.


Sigh...I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt because anyone making a comment like "women don't belong in kendo" has either got a real intelligent reason or just plain stupid. I really didn't think you were the latter...oh, well.

Women may not be as strong as men but what they may lack in size or muscles they make up for in speed and accuracy. We have a Sandan who would kick your arse and she has worked damn hard for it. She trains at every opportunity she gets. A kendokas rating depends on their determination. We are all individuals so don't judge women as a group. You sound like a bloody Nazi who says something like all jews are untermensch...sigh

Physical Strenght does not = good kendo. You ever wonder why an old man at 70 can kick your arse? Its skill not strenght that shines through. You are insinuating that men are better because of their physical attributes...well, then kendo is not for you, why don't you try some other meathead sport like dropping bricks on your head.

Women deserve respect but not in Kendo?
I suppose not in court, society or anywhere but the kitchen, eh?


In this forum there's an unwritten tradition that noone should share his grade with the world as you did. I promise you that one day we'll meet each other.

Really? Anyone else heard of this cockamamie tradition?


Kent Enfield: You, sir, are an idiot. Have you ever trained with a woman? Or even talked to one?

judging by your total lack of respect or compassion or sensitivity Mr Lubo I'm sure you haven't.

Well, I'm sure Mr Enfield, by his Gentlemen's conduct, has. I have trained with women and they have fought just as well as a men. They are Kendoka and I respect them as worthy opponents and teachers, just as they feel the same when we don our bogu.

Look this up in history:

Jean of Arc

Women in the Red Army

***********************************************

I feel real sad for you that you judge people like that. I certainly would not judge all your countrymen as bigots because of your actions....

PEACE
MENG

[James]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee


Really? Anyone else heard of this cockamamie tradition?


This thread is getting out of control, already we have people saying cockamamie

It's just a slippery slope........

[KhawMengLee]

oops...hee :P

back to DO then...one day there will be a female friendly DO just like there are female friendly wetsuits.

PEACE
MENG

[gill]

Originally posted by KhawMengLee


Really? Anyone else heard of this cockamamie tradition?



Obviously not the people who started the forum - as there a space for it in the profile:D

[saki_wooah]

tssss what are those postings of discrimination here? If you are a true kendoka, you should respect everyone! What is kendo for you then? a thing in life like others? a way to beat people with a shinai? what is that?

[Confound]

Amen, Saki_wooah (I'd prefer to call you samurai kirby, but..)!
I was waiting for someone to point out that kendou is about respect for others, not bludgeoning people over the head with your ideas or your shinai.

Perhaps I speak out of turn, not that it has ever bothered me before, but I honestly believe that kendou is not about whapping people over the head, or on the wrist, or anywhere else. it's about many other richer things.

My apologies to Minshi in advance on this one, but kendou is like that tree on Dagobah. You find only what you bring with you into it. Yes, you'll find things you never knew before, that your sempai show you, or your sensei teaches you, but in the end, the potential for it was in you all along.

The miraculous thing about kendou in Japan is that it's one of the few places where women in this society can be considered on equal footing with men. sometimes i feel sadness for my female sempai, because the only time they get to be equal is when they put on hakama and bogu. the rest of the time, no matter how earnest and honest they are, they're women. that is a strike against them in this culture, and a reason to treat them as inferiors.

Mr. Lubo, I entreat you to come live in Japan, in a rural mountain village, somewhere in Tohouku. You will find not only people whoshare your sentiments toward women (with the exception of their place in kendou), but people who also have very little hot water, quite possibly no more than junior high school education, and very little interest in anything beyond their tiny little village.

Sometimes I rue the day the internet was opened to the unwashed masses. especially when i read things like Mr. Lubo's posts. Fortunately, I usually encounter more useful things a short time later. Luckily for all of us, our trolls are few and far between.

c

[inner_cent]

look... why are we still chatting about this guy ??? If we continou flame him, he just keep on stick to it... bets ignore him .... Or better, can moderator kick him ?

[Simon Chien]

To female kendoka,

Please visit http://www.bujindesign.com/wdogi.html#t

You may find useful information there.

[IsahoNaginata]

Hmm.

I find that a Frog Bra is great (basically a sports bra with high compression) and so are the compression shirts from Underworks, which can turn a large female chest into a perfectly flat chest while being worn. Though the Underworks stuff is really tight and I would not recommend wearing it during the heavy workout of kendo or any other martial art for that matter.

But a Frog Bra would work great.

[IsahoNaginata]

"Women may not be as strong as men but what they may lack in size or muscles they make up for in speed and accuracy."

Not totally true. It is just that physical strength is more difficult to maintain over time due to the lower levels of testosterone. It is more a hormonal quality than a genetic quality and some women are naturally stronger than men, some men are naturally weaker than most women, and so on.

[moetl]

hi,
allthough i'm not in bogu yet (but hope to be soon :)) i thought about this problem since i will be confronted with it sooner or later...
aren't there two problems?
* the first is that the breasts stick out and therefore the do doesn't fit well.
* the second problem is that the breasts stick out on the side and when you get a too high do cut it hurts like hell because the soft breast-tissue gets "smashed".

how can both problems be avoided at the same time? can this even be managed?

* a "frog bra" squeezes your breasts flat - but pushes the tissue towards the side (the breast-tissue has to move somewhere...)
* and a bra that presses the breasts together to move the tissue away from the hitting zone increases your circumference so the do won't fit well.

as i said before this is just theoretical.

has anyone of you ever tried one of these? (https://www.allstar.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PostTep&file=index&action=product_info.php&cPath=5_515_51510&products_id=52600).

or what do you think of these? (https://www.allstar.de/modules.php?op=modload&name=PostTep&file=index&action=product_info.php&products_id=52512) they seem quite appropriate to me - they protect the sides, but well, the breasts still stick out... :(

[tantadi]

From what I have heard, the hard shell bra doesn't feel very good on and can pinch parts when you move your arms or get hit. And I don't like the bras that compress things...I think I am going to try to sew some padding material into an ordinary bra.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Somehow I seen the results of a misplaced Do manage to turn into a tsuki....dropped a sempai pretty quick...don't ask how...the scary part was the tsuki went right under the throat guard on the men.

[Hai_hai]

hi,
allthough i'm not in bogu yet (but hope to be soon :)) i thought about this problem since i will be confronted with it sooner or later...
aren't there two problems?
* the first is that the breasts stick out and therefore the do doesn't fit well.
* the second problem is that the breasts stick out on the side and when you get a too high do cut it hurts like hell because the soft breast-tissue gets "smashed".

how can both problems be avoided at the same time? can this even be managed?...

First, this entire thread has answers to your question. Why don't you read the previous posts.

Second, this is my most favorite kendo-world forum thread. It's so erotic. Sugoi!

[Raiza]

hi,
allthough i'm not in bogu yet (but hope to be soon :)) i thought about this problem since i will be confronted with it sooner or later...
aren't there two problems?
* the first is that the breasts stick out and therefore the do doesn't fit well.
* the second problem is that the breasts stick out on the side and when you get a too high do cut it hurts like hell because the soft breast-tissue gets "smashed".

how can both problems be avoided at the same time? can this even be managed?

Solution: Wear a tightfitting sports bra that lets you breathe and use a dou that fits properly. A panelled racerback sports bra might do the trick, but it depends on your assets. You should be properly contained (please see above relevant posts) unless you're really big (like DD+). You won't get hit often up there anyhow. I think I've been hit there once in over two years of regular practise.

[Hai_hai]

...You should be properly contained (please see above relevant posts) unless you're really big (like DD+)...

Domo arigato.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Mr. Roboto.

[moetl]

i read the posts above, but none of them dealt with the combination of the two problems. i said that i only thought about it so it could well be that the combination of these two problems is no problem [pretty much problems here, eh? ;)]

i'm relieved that it's not common that your breast gets "smashed"... only the thought of this is painful X_x

[Hai_hai]

i read the posts above, but none of them dealt with the combination of the two problems. i said that i only thought about it so it could well be that the combination of these two problems is no problem [pretty much problems here, eh? ...

Your problem is not with kendo, it is not maximizing your potential through an activity that has problems with having big boobs.

[moetl]

Your problem is not with kendo, it is not maximizing your potential through an activity that has problems with having big boobs.sorry, but i don't get the meaning of that... :redface:
btw, i don't have big "boobs" [as you put it], i'm just medium sized ^^

anyway, this conversation leads to nothing constructive as i see it. let's quit it and get back to topic, please.

[Raiza]

Hai_hai is a troll. Ignore him.

[Emchen]

This summer i participated in the "World University Student Kendo Gathering" in Tokyo. There we had the opportunity to meet a highly skilled Bogu manufacturer. He described the differences between male and female bogu, gi and hakama. The differences was actually quite big allthough I cannot remember them all now. One problem is that this mans bogu was super expencive, like 20.000 dollars and more. There must be cheaper stuff though.
Male and female bougu? Why haven't I ever heard of separate bougus being made for both sexes?

[Raiza]

Because a proper "women's bogu" is extremely rare, that's why. I've got a nice set that doesn't say "women's bogu" and it it fits me just right.

Just get some nice bogu and bend it a bit around the mune. It works great.

[GBN]

I'll try and ask my naginata teacher how this is handled in the naginata world which is almost exclusively women in japan. I'm guessing you could have a do custom made for you. It'd be expensive I'm sure and you'd probably have to have a good knowledge of japanese to negotiate with the manufacturer effectively. FWIW, my teacher said that the mune on the naginata bogu is wider to try and cut down on tsuki accidents.

Brian

[Stimpson J. Cat]

in the naginata world which is almost exclusively women in japan.
Brian
How much different is a naginata do from a kendo do? If they are close enough that a naginata do would be acceptable for kendo, it might be easier to get a naginata do that was built suitably for a "well-endowed" woman if there are proportionately more female naginata practicitioners. I have seen naginata bogu on the web, but never paid much attention to them.

[GBN]

According to my teacher, the naginata do is pretty much the same except the mune tends to be wider because naginata players dont square off face to face. Look at chudan kamae for naginata. The hip is facing the opponent not the front of the body. Here's a picture from bogu bag:

http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Naginata/N4_L.jpg

vs a similar kendo one:

http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Machine_3mm/S21_L.jpg

while we are at it here's a jukendo one:

http://www.bogubag.com/Bogu/Jukendo/J01_L.jpg

notice the HUGE tsuki protector.

enjoy,
Brian

[Eiliries]

thanks for this thread, it's extremely helpfull and informative! Nevrtheless, I must say I am disgusted by the outbursts of the neanderthal Don_Lubo, if you don't like women, why did you click on the thread "women and do"? I'm glad no one at my dojo thinks like you, you see, in the real world, gentlemen/gentlekendoka have respect for their peers, regardless of their gender.

[GBN]

Hi all,

I didn't forget about this thread. My naginata teacher is back from vacation and I asked her about the problem with large breasts and the do. The gist of her answer is that this isn't a problem in Japan. :( Sorry ladies. At first she thought it was an issue of being big from chest through the waist. i.e. big and fat, for that she just suggested a bigger do, like a bamboo 64. I guess one could try and contact a bogu maker and try to have a custom mune made. You might also want to try a saddle shop to see if they could make a custom mune for you. I'd think that most shops that handle leather, cobbler or saddlery, might be able to make something custom for you. If you do that please let us know for future reference.

Thanks,
Brian

[kanyil]

i'm sorry if someone's already brought this up before, but couldn't you just wear the fencing chest guards underneath a bigger do?

[Erikku]

In another post, I heard about someone who had stitched some cushionning (?) inside his/her gi underarm general area to prevent bruises from misplaced Do. Maybe something like this might help if you fear being hit on, er... , it.

I don't know how a "women Do" would be built though... Do you create a larger Mune??? Then how can you move your arms? It would need to be a Medieval-movie-female-warrior kind of Do with moulded er... curves.

As for fencing breast cups... I've been teaching fencing to females and seen the equipment a bit, and those won't really protect against a shinai hit. Remember fencing hits needs only a light touch to be valid.

[Hai_hai]

i'm sorry if someone's already brought this up before, but couldn't you just wear the fencing chest guards underneath a bigger do?
Yes, it's been brought up before. You have to go back and read the old posts.

[louisvandalen]

Can someone give me the adres of the Double D dojo?

Best Regards,

Louis

[louisvandalen]

What about topless Kendo ? That would solve all "sizing" problems and it would definatly inspire me to practice more often.

Best Regards,

Louis

[reg]

What about topless Kendo ? That would solve all "sizing" problems and it would definatly inspire me to practice more often.

Best Regards,

Louis
you seem quite misguided and in possession of an imaginative mind. have you ever considered a career in politics?

[louisvandalen]

I posted another reaction but that got removed, lucky you :).

Looking at your previous threads: you must be an experienced politician already with all these short and shallow reactions (please make em some fun to read next time and you can run for president*). Any other carreer tips?

G'day m8,

Louis

*president of a banana republic or the US maybe (forget europe).

[reg]

I posted another reaction but that got removed, lucky you :).

Looking at your previous threads: you must be an experienced politician already with all these short and shallow reactions (please make em some fun to read next time and you can run for president*). Any other carreer tips?

G'day m8,

Louis

*president of a banana republic or the US maybe (forget europe).
short and shallow response for a recipient short in wits and shallow in humour.

[satoshi]

I came across an article by a female kendoka who makes various recommendations to make bogu more comfortable. I think the issue amongst Japanese female kendoka is mostly about being shorter and smaller than average males. Therefore it may not be directly relevant to the discussion but I hope it is informative to somebody...

http://t-shobudo.com/kodawari/koe/koe0212.html

A rough summary of the suggestions:

Men: By making sure that the monomi (the slightly wider space between the 6th and 7th men-gane) is at the correct position, narrowing the width and shortening the length of men buton ('flap'), it becomes easier to take the correct posture and to swing/control the shinai.

Do: By shortening the height of the do-dai (belly guard) and mune (chest guard), the area between the tsuki-dare and do-mune becomes less tight. Also, by making the width of the do smaller, the arms do not get caught by the mune part.

Tare: Make the tare flaps smaller, the hara-obi (sash/belt part) narrower, and the waki-himo shorter. This will make it less tight when bowing from seiza position. Obviously the zekken must be made smaller as well.

Keiko-gi: Make the sleeve thinner and shorter. The sleeve should be the length at which there is a small gap between the keiko-gi and the kote, and when the arm is raised the elbow is not hidden.

Hakama: Adjust the width of the front and back of Hakama to your waist measure, so that the V-shaped gap/slit at the side is not too narrow or too wide. Naturally you must make the koshi-ita smaller as well. Also make the himo narrower and shorter to make it easier to tie.

[nalogg]

Hmmmmm

i'm an industrial designer,
I should get together with a japanese or korean manufacturer and strike up a deal to design manufacture and sell female "form-fitting" bogu... it would be a big seller here in canada
anybody got any connections? :smiley:

[nalogg]

Keiko-gi: Make the sleeve thinner and shorter. The sleeve should be the length at which there is a small gap between the keiko-gi and the kote, and when the arm is raised the elbow is not hidden.

Yeah, i noticed that some of the smaller women on the club will roll the sleeves, or kinda have them sort of tucked under the kote

i think the solution to the problem is an affordable custom bogu making service

HEY
imagine having a kiosk at a mall where you could step inside, have a 3d scan of your body taken, and within a couple hours a machine would rapid-prototype custom bogu for you out of fibreglass reinforced polymer... it may not last as long as the metal kind, but they'd be about 1/4 the cost, and have a lot of colour options

sorry.. i'm getting a bit "star trek" on you here but the technology is out there

[senjlee]

I dearly agree that currrent bogu sets need diversity not just in quality but in shape. Ever increasing number of people are participating in kendo community, and want to enjoy this art & sport.
Though I'm right handed, I have been curious why there is no mirror image kamae for left handed people.
I can imagine the possible confusion in KATA and the colloiding knees and feet during keiko.....just curious.

[Kaoru]

I dearly agree that currrent bogu sets need diversity not just in quality but in shape. Ever increasing number of people are participating in kendo community, and want to enjoy this art & sport.
Though I'm right handed, I have been curious why there is no mirror image kamae for left handed people.
I can imagine the possible confusion in KATA and the colloiding knees and feet during keiko.....just curious.

Kendo is for left-handed people. :) The power is in the left hand even though the left hand is held at the end of the tsuka. There's no need for a left handed kamae, as a result. And, hehehe, I think you just answered your own question what with the colliding feet and all. There's really not a need for seperate kamae for a left-handed person in the end, due to these facts. :)

Kaoru

[Kaoru]

Yeah, i noticed that some of the smaller women on the club will roll the sleeves, or kinda have them sort of tucked under the kote

i think the solution to the problem is an affordable custom bogu making service

HEY
imagine having a kiosk at a mall where you could step inside, have a 3d scan of your body taken, and within a couple hours a machine would rapid-prototype custom bogu for you out of fibreglass reinforced polymer... it may not last as long as the metal kind, but they'd be about 1/4 the cost, and have a lot of colour options

sorry.. i'm getting a bit "star trek" on you here but the technology is out there

Metal kind? I thought a do was either bamboo or plastic or some other synthetic fiber? IS metal involved in a do? I didn't think there was. :confused: The only metal part I know of, is the mengane on the men. Please explain?

Thanks.

Kaoru

[senjlee]

Kendo is for left-handed people. :) The power is in the left hand even though the left hand is held at the end of the tsuka. There's no need for a left handed kamae, as a result. And, hehehe, I think you just answered your own question what with the colliding feet and all. There's really not a need for seperate kamae for a left-handed person in the end, due to these facts. :)

Kaoru

I have not met any left handed kenshi complaining. So, I guess you're right.
But still I hope better bogu design.
I hope for better shaped "do" for femele, also better protection for throat.
"Tsuki" is an important waza closely related with seme and centerline.
But less practiced due to the possible injury.

[ixi]

Two women in our Dojo tried the breast protector for Taek won do under their Do.
One said, that the protection was very good and that the protector felt comfortable (she has very big breasts).
The other complained about to much pressure on the stomach and removed it after the warm-ups (her breasts are smaller).
I didn't try yet...

[Solinde]

Kendo is for left-handed people. :) The power is in the left hand even though the left hand is held at the end of the tsuka.

Actually it is rather right-handed as the right hand does all the precision work, which is generally what is difficult to get right with the "wrong" hand, i e I am right-handed and I don't feel any specific difference swinging the shinai with either hand, but I sure miss the target a lot more often with my left than with my right hand. Although, as both hands are more or less cooperating when holding the shinai it shouldn't really matter.

In iaido, where we do actually use the sword one-handed as well, left-handed people often have a little more trouble getting it right at first. From what I've understood this is (at least partly) because the samurai were forced to be right-handed, just as it was in many other countries (including Sweden) until not to long ago.

Although all of this is really off-topic. Sorry. :o

[Timeline]

Two women in our Dojo tried the breast protector for Taek won do under their Do.
One said, that the protection was very good and that the protector felt comfortable (she has very big breasts).
The other complained about to much pressure on the stomach and removed it after the warm-ups (her breasts are smaller).
I didn't try yet...

Hi, is this thread still being watched?
Do you have a link to the Tae Kwon Do breast protector?
We have two potential lady Kendoka at our Dojo. They were asking about extra protection for female Kendoka. I've read through this thread and there seems to be good advice.

Any more female Kendoka got any good advice?

[Commander]

Yeah, we need female-friendly Do's! LOL

[Mugu]

Yeah, we need female-friendly Do's! LOL

mmm now, the Do J.Lo wore starts to look good... NOT! I don't have big breast anywayz :redface:

http://users.telenet.be/man.seung.han1/corset.jpg

[Commander]

NOT! I don't have big breast anywayz :redface:

http://users.telenet.be/man.seung.han1/corset.jpg

No comment lol

[mingshi]

Taekwondo ones:-

http://www.challengermartialarts.com/femalechest.jpg

Looks a bit too hot tho... Temperature-wise!!

[Paikea]

Taekwondo ones:-

http://www.challengermartialarts.com/femalechest.jpg

Looks a bit too hot tho... Temperature-wise!!Didn't I see that on "tripping the rift" last night?

[pgsmith]

Chiba bogu advertises special sizing for women.

http://www.chibabogu.com/catalog/

[Naginatagirl]

The do doesn't bother me so much as the tare. My kamae is the same with or without the do since there was always something in the way :ermm: But the tare always looks like it's tied too high so I tried tying it on my hips...bad idea. The difference of waist and hip being what they are, this doesn't work and leads to more severe bruising from missed do hits. From pgsmith's post and chiba bogu I think this is the most important:



"Women have more pronounced hips, and tapering waists as compared to their male counterparts. Especially for smaller women this leaves little space between the hips and lower ribs of the mid-torso. Therefore, the tare's mae-obi, the belt portion at the front of the tare must be shorter in height, to fit the available space, to allow for freedom of movement, and for unrestricted breathing. A soft and flexible tare is one of the most important features a woman should look for in a set of bogu."


If I accidentally tie my tare too tight it feels like a corset. If you bend and fold (work in) the mae-obi it makes it more flexible and easier to move in. Just a tip I found useful.

[ixi]

Our Member uses this one:

http://www.energy-sports.de/product_info.php/products_id/175/language/en

http://www.energy-sports.de/product_info.php/products_id/176?osCsid=d933008facf44e91a253dc5558cee4f7

[subygal]

Dragging up an old thread - but I have only just read this (it was linked to in one of the sticky threads on womens bogu) I have just ordered 2 of those Frog Bras :) Now to wait 10 days until they arrive!

[kendoindia]

well please contact this bogu mfg. he was willing to adjust the problem faced regarding DO adjustment, http://www.bogu-ya.com/
or else can also try this PROTECTOR (http://www.energy-sports.de/index.php/cPath/42_50) , HOPE SOMETHING OR THE OTHER SOLVES THIS PROBLEM, so that in future such things have a remedy, specially for beginners, who are more afraid to continue,
take care