Samurai - good or bad?

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Money hungary corrupt gangsters and killers who oppresed the peasants? Only used religion and spirituality to give themseleves a "purpouse" during peace time, or genuine Disciplined and dedicated honourable warriors?

[Wout]

well prolly some were category a and some of category b and most sorta resided in between the two.

but you can make such thoughts about anything by using heuristic of disthrust, christianity: used by leaders to keep ppl like sheep and device to make all dissident suspicious and cause of many bad in this world, or system that gives ppl meaning to their lives in helping others and cause of many good things in this worlds.

even
Language: basis that allows us to communicate what we want think and feel, needed for the exsistence of culture.
On the other hand language restricts us, there can be hardly no emotions outside of language, molds our spirit to the culture we live in making a barrier to shield of other cultures, generating misunderstanding and misthrust.

[ZealUK]

Neither. Samurai were a social class. Remember they were primarily retainers to a daimyo, and bushi second during the period after the Sengoku Jidai. I believe that many samurai took administrative posts and essentially assisted in running local government when the country was in peacetime.

There is no doubt that they were motivated by money, however, as a shortage of stipends, or dissolution of feudal han left samurai out of pocket or out of a job. These men became ronin, and perhaps fulfilled the vagabond role that you refer to.

It is clear that peasant and to a lesser degree merchant classes were abused by the samurai class, but this is indicative of any feudal system, where the lowest common denominator is oppressed by the richer and more socially astute classes.

I am not particularly clear on the use of religion as a tool of social manipulation in feudal Japan, or even what relogions were prevalent at the time. I would guess that Soto and Rinzai Zen Buddhism, Amida Buddhism, Shinto, and Christianity would be the major religions.

These opinions are based on what I can remember from reading books by Turnbull et al. and I wouldn't rely on them being particularly accurate.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

The thing is , samurai as the romanticised way of life and religion and spirituality and alot of ritual only came about about in the Tokugawa period , (1600 onward) when there Was complete peace in Japan, and everyone was wondering , what do we do with the Samurai???? So the samurai decided to explore other avenues of life, whereas before they were alot more brutal in their ways, and alot less was emphasised on their non violent ways of life.

[Shiro]

Like in europe -> good lords and bad lords.

[ZealUK]

Yes the samurai ideal was re-invented during the Tokugawa shogunate by people like Yamamoto Tsunetomo, who wished to reinforce the image of noble bushi, sacrificing themselves for their lord. This generally didn't happen anymore, as large scale bloodshed was infrequent, and the samurai caste had essentially become armoured beurocrats for the mostpart. During a period of war I don't think it would be necessary to reinforce the ideal of the noble warrior, as nobody needs to hear about how they should die, when death is surrounding you constantly and life is cheap.

During the Tokugawa period, nobody was wondering "what do we do with the smaurai?" They were an established upper class in a feudal system. If people had wondered about their usefulness, I sincerely doubt that they would have lasted 265 years, from the start of the Tokugawa shogunate in 1603 to the collapse of the bakufu and restoration of the emporer Meiji in 1868.

[Shogun97]

well you can not say samurau wre bad/good......like you can not say all islamic people are terrorists or all germans are nazis....you just can not!
samurai followed the way of zen, which is a strickt way of buddism(did i spell it right?).
But i personally don't like the samurai.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

I have no doubt that ALOT of samurai where honourable warriors who upheld Buddhist beliefs, but their sole purpouse were as ruthless armies, and during the Tokugawa period the Samurai were Certainly left wondering what their role in society was, and many people were also wondering what were the samurai being payed for?! This is the reason why they expanded into political life and the arts and became more Social sort of characters.

[Shogun97]

']I have no doubt that ALOT of samurai where honourable warriors who upheld Buddhist beliefs, but their sole purpouse were as ruthless armies, and during the Tokugawa period the Samurai were Certainly left wondering what their role in society was, and many people were also wondering what were the samurai being payed for?! This is the reason why they expanded into political life and the arts and became more Social sort of characters.
Apart from the Ronin......what do you think of them?
for me ronin are the real samurai:they were free, good fighters, did not have to do seppuku(I hate this)........ect.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

Ronin, as far as i know they didnt answer to anyone (hence being masterless) and didnt live by any rules or codes, and were motivated mostly by money and wandered around lookin for jobs such as bodyguards etc and recruitment from various clans.

[jodonnell]

Didn't many ronin turn to banditry to sustain themselves? I'm sure for every Musashi there were 20 Matahachi, and thats only if you believe Yoshikawa's highly idealized/romanticized interpretations of their lives.

It's just like European knights - sure, there is Camelot and Galahad and Gawain and etc, ie, legends of great noble warriors, but I'm willing to bet the majority of that caste did not live up to those ideals. Only in peacetime can you really get that 'noble warrior' concept; during war, there isn't really that kind of time for questions of honor and nobility. And of course, when the samurai became officials during peacetime, they capable of the same pettiness as any bureaucrat.

[Shogun97]

Didn't many ronin turn to banditry to sustain themselves? I'm sure for every Musashi there were 20 Matahachi, and thats only if you believe Yoshikawa's highly idealized/romanticized interpretations of their lives.

It's just like European knights - sure, there is Camelot and Galahad and Gawain and etc, ie, legends of great noble warriors, but I'm willing to bet the majority of that caste did not live up to those ideals. Only in peacetime can you really get that 'noble warrior' concept; during war, there isn't really that kind of time for questions of honor and nobility. And of course, when the samurai became officials during peacetime, they capable of the same pettiness as any bureaucrat.

all right, all right some became bandidts...........
all though i think they did live after the bushido, didn't they?
if not i have done a silly mistake by likeing these guys...
by the way......have you read the book musashi?

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

you mean the book of the five rings by musashi>? That was written towards the end of the samurai era

[jodonnell]

I think he means Yoshikawa's novelized version of his life, titled simply Musashi. And of course I've read it, it's in my sig :)

[Shogun97]

I think he means Yoshikawa's novelized version of his life, titled simply Musashi. And of course I've read it, it's in my sig :)
that's what i mean!!!!
I'm just reading it........great book so far!!!:cool:
another thing:
so did ronin live after the bushido??

[Zaphiel]

year right did they or didn't they live after the bushido