Curved shinai

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

dont you think its about time there was a curved shinai with a shorter grip and slightly heavier to make kendo more realistic (in regards to the katana) even though there are bokken aroun

[Ralutin]

']dont you think its about time there was a curved shinai with a shorter grip and slightly heavier to make kendo more realistic (in regards to the katana) even though there are bokken aroun


Hi,

I bet you that these curved shinai would be more expensive and a bear to manufacture. Besides, you'd think that more people would've come up with this idea within the last 50+ years that kendo's been around.

Just my two cents...

[Anjin-san]

http://www.e-bogu.com/Akatsuki_Ichikawa_Model_p/aka-ken-shi-akaichikawa--.htm

there ya go

[Snobody]

Weird... Is there any reason someone would use a curved shinai like that? There don't seem to be any benefits of having a curved shinai, besides the fact that it resembles the curve of a katana...
I wonder if those are allowed for shiai, although I don't see why not... The curve probably drops overall length quite noticeably.
Seems kind of pointless overall though.

[Ralutin]

http://www.e-bogu.com/Akatsuki_Ichikawa_Model_p/aka-ken-shi-akaichikawa--.htm

there ya go

Hi,

Well, I'll be damned...$115.00 and three inches shorter than the standard 39". Yeah, you'd definitely be at a disadvantage against some one using a standard shinai. Hmmm...

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

it would seem logical that the first shinai to emerge in kendo SHOULD have been curved, simply because they were meant to be copying real katana, and also the grips should be shorter and slightly curved, the shinai is more the sort of a sword a ninja would use.
I doubt they would be too hapy if anyone used those curved shinai in shiai, let alone keiko. And it seems like an odd way to curve a shinai, like the bamboo could snap under pressure too. However it seems like its better for hitting with, because the tip will only come into contact with the opponent

[forbidden]

Sounds too expensive in my opinion.
Every now and then I sand the bumped parts at the end of my shinai, to keep it from crack. I also rotate it 90 degrees once in a while, so the shinai wont take impact on the same side all the time. ( Im sure some of you do the same )

You wouldn't be able to do this with a curved shinai. I am pretty sure it would break pretty fast, if you go keiko alot.

[Neil Gendzwill]

The curve isn't the major thing preventing a shinai from behaving like a sword. It's the width and the weight, neither of which can be changed without seriously compromising safety.

[mystic_kendoka]

i think the curved shinai wld be useless,
1) its shorter
2) its curve makes it even shorter
3) its curve means you would have to swing about 2 inches more to have contact, in comparison to a normal straight shinai
4) difficult to put down (edge down) in seiza
5) phreaking expensive
6) makes rotation impossible, lasts only 1/4 of wat a normal shinai does
7) PS : wouldnt the tsuru be sticking out a lot? and shinais get stuck under the tsuru more?

[moetl]

and what about the technical aspect? i mean, i do not know how bamboo reacts exactly, but i can't believe that the bamboo from a curved shinai bends as bamboo from a straight shinai when hitting a target...

i'm sure you all have seen once a photo taken exaclty at the moment when the shinai hits the men - it's awesome how much the bamboo bends.
i doubt that a curved shinai reacts the same way. it would be more painful, wouldn't it?

[Hyaku]

If it was curved you would have to cut deeper. This would bring the hands down in front up the opponent and would hinder going through.There must be a dozen other reasons but this is the first that comes to mind.

You would have to review everything.

[mystic_kendoka]

it would hurt a LOT because the shape prevents the bamboo slats from sliding past each other, i think tsuki would be a bit awkward too...

[Hyaku]

']dont you think its about time there was a curved shinai with a shorter grip and slightly heavier to make kendo more realistic (in regards to the katana) even though there are bokken aroun

But exactly how realistic do you want to make it. Thinking that way you can forget kendo kikentaichi. You can even do away with cuts to the head. As I said a complete review would be necessary as to just how realistic you would want it to be an exactly how far back you would want to go in budo history.

Prewar kendo had a twisting movement of the back foot rather than going through. There have been so many changes as it is. Japan's tradition is predominantly, "If it works why change it". But this is not the case in Kendo. In fact they are still making it up. For my part I do wish they would just leave it alone for a while.

Without a doubt sword arts have spilit into facets over the years. If you want something different its best to do another facet rather than make one up. They are inexorably linked and certain good attributes do flow over.

[[Kensei 剣の聖者]]

if all sword arts developed from kenjitsu then why did they have to alter the practice swords for Kendo into Shinai

[Bleda]

Bamboo is naturally pretty straight, not curved. To curve bamboo a constant pressure would need to be exerted on the slats leading to fatigue and shorter life spans. Also the main use of the curved sword is sharpness and drawing speed, neither of which matters in kendo. If you were fighting iaikendo(made this up i know its fake lol) where you both stand there and just draw then a curved sword would be better but since you start with the sword out the muscle memory is the same whether you use a curved sword or a straight sword. Its pretty easy to see this, use a bokken and a shinai and strike men, then kote, then do, then tsuki. Its the same motion with either sword the only thing that changes is distances. As to why t he shinai's are longer i bet the explenation is as simple as some guy decided to get a little advantage and pull out a longer shinai then his friend copied and before you knew it everyone was making longer and longer shinais to give themselves the advantage.

[mystic_kendoka]

ur bending theory may not be correct if the bamboo was bent while it was still alive and growing, in which case it would have still be the same strength, which would also explain the HUGE cost of this goddamn thing

[Bleda]

I'm talking from an economically plausible standpoint. The demand for quality shinai already has the prices fairly high requiring everyone to use a curved shinai cut from a special made bamboo plant that can only produce 1 sword would push the cost of each shinai well above the price of bogu most likely. Even then the curved bamboo would not be as strong nor as durable as the straight shinai since when you hit it flexes downwards causing the fibers to stretch even more than a standard straight shinai.

[Hyaku]

Bamboo was thought to be a good material "because" of its flexible properties. These properties outweigh the fact that it is naturally straight.

If you really wanted to nitpick look a shot captured as a shinai strikes. Its curved on impact.

I would have said the purpose for most is more on "Can you hit the guy" rather than "Is it technical enough". Reach the age of fifty and you can spend more time on technicalities. Better still, for more in depth study do iaido or a related art.

But they are making some nice bamboo bokuto now. Why not use one of those? I'm all for it. Promise I won't stike too hard.

[mystic_kendoka]

yea and i'll use my white oak bokuto, i promise i wont strike too hard,

it just DOESNT make sense, no matter how 'softly' you hit, it'll still hurt like hell!

[Bleda]

yea and i'll use my white oak bokuto, i promise i wont strike too hard,

it just DOESNT make sense, no matter how 'softly' you hit, it'll still hurt like hell!
That was kind of his whole point Mystic...

[Anjin-san]

this article:

http://www.auskf.info/mainpages/article2.htm

although long, includes relevant history.

I think my sensei once mentioned to me that the reason the shinai was longer than the real sword was it was too easy to make valid cuts with a shorter weapon, and consequently for sporting purposes it was lengthened.

[Riczander]

http://budk.com/Swords/Full-Force-Bamboo-Bokken-Sword

I just ordered two of these and we'll see how they hold up.

[Lloromannic]

That...
That isn't a shinai.

[LowFatMat]

http://budk.com/Swords/Full-Force-Bamboo-Bokken-Sword

I just ordered two of these and we'll see how they hold up.

I'd wear goggles for when when it showers you in bamboo splinters!

The tsuka on that thing is massive (or the hand model is five years old).

Have to admit, though, for ten bucks I'd buy one if they sold them in the UK just for the novelty.

[Riczander]

I'd wear goggles for when when it showers you in bamboo splinters!

The tsuka on that thing is massive (or the hand model is five years old).

Have to admit, though, for ten bucks I'd buy one if they sold them in the UK just for the novelty.


The only real expectation I can have of something like this is the same that I have of other cheap shinai. We all know they come in a wide range of prices and qualities. I don't do kendo, but I'm with a group of people that free spar outside with shinai and bokken, we've been doing this for years. I wouldn't say this sword is good for kendo, but it looks like it would be perfect for the more acrobatic of us. I'll make sure to treat it with the same respect I'd treat a regular shinai of the same price. Meaning I will beat its bamboo brain out. We'll see how long it lasts. :)

[DCooper]

Perhaps this works ..... Hope the link works.

http://www.dfwkik.org/dallas/node/265

Ken Onishi men strike :)

[Kris]

I'd wear goggles for when when it showers you in bamboo splinters!

The tsuka on that thing is massive (or the hand model is five years old).

Have to admit, though, for ten bucks I'd buy one if they sold them in the UK just for the novelty.


A couple of guys at our dojo have these, not quite shinai but can be used for contact..........

http://www.playwell.co.uk/contact-bamboo-bokken-with-scabbard-p-2501.html

They sometimes use them for iaido, never seen them when we do kendo though.

[Kendoka]

;39588']dont you think its about time there was a curved shinai with a shorter grip and slightly heavier to make kendo more realistic (in regards to the katana) even though there are bokken aroun

Err, No. And you asked this question a bit late. About 13.5 days late.

[Raindrop]

Well according to some senseis you're supposed to be able to still "cut" with a regular shinai. It should be "more realistic" automatically if you do more old school kendo and cut down your opponent instead of "snapping" your shinai on the target. I don't understand too much about it myself, but that's what I've heard from a sensei in Japan. More or less the "realism" should come from inside you, and it doesn't matter if you use a regular shinai or a fancy new shinai/bokkuto crossbreed.

And if you think about it, on impact the shinai does become curved, doesn't it? :3

And aren't there some kenjutsu schools that spar with bokkuto? (outch!)

[Anorymous]

;39588']dont you think its about time there was a curved shinai with a shorter grip and slightly heavier to make kendo more realistic (in regards to the katana) even though there are bokken aroun

I so want me one of those. (http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=940&CatID=98)

I wholly disagree with the "heavier" part. Shinai might be lighter than swords, but their rotational inertia and air-resistance mean they do build arm strength. Plus, if they got heavier they'd be too dangerous to hit people with!

[ShinKenshi]

I so want me one of those. (http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=940&CatID=98)

I wholly disagree with the "heavier" part. Shinai might be lighter than swords, but their rotational inertia and air-resistance mean they do build arm strength. Plus, if they got heavier they'd be too dangerous to hit people with!Re-read the thread. You're wasting your time with curved shinai. Save your money and get a regular shinai instead.

[IronWarrior]

In the UK, our Nine Circles have one for £46.81


http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/product_details.asp?ProdID=940&CatID=98



Handmade from best quality Madake, these sword shaped Shinai are unique in the market. Offering Kendoka the chance to experience Shiai like never before, the curved blade, oval grip Tsuka and oval blade profile beautifully replicate the feeling of using a real sword.

I asked few of my Senpai's and they never seen or used one before.

[UnimportantHero]

I think I could imagine hollow PVC (or similar material) bokuto being used before curved shinai, for the reasons people mention above. Breaking and snapping and all that. Nevermind that the manufacturing might be slightly more a pain in the ass.

[tannim656]

Actually its very easy to do. Take apart the weapon, soak the planks in a bathtub overnight, place them in the shape best fitted to your needs and allow them to dry for a few days. putting them back together is the trick. I prefer 1 half plank and two full length for balance. Granted these are not official. Mine are held together on the handle with braided leather. and the heft of the blade with electrical tape. I have a leather tip.
The short plank is placed from the handle between the full length planks to about mid point. This gives them a nearly perfect balance when wielded.

I have both a 30" set and a full length 42" set. As I dual wield equal length weapons.

[tannim656]

and what about the technical aspect? i mean, i do not know how bamboo reacts exactly, but i can't believe that the bamboo from a curved shinai bends as bamboo from a straight shinai when hitting a target...

i'm sure you all have seen once a photo taken exaclty at the moment when the shinai hits the men - it's awesome how much the bamboo bends.
i doubt that a curved shinai reacts the same way. it would be more painful, wouldn't it?

You all make me laugh. It hurts no less than a straight sword. Is easier to soak, and reset as a bent plank. Stop thinking in terms of having someone else do all the work. Be creative people.
As far as a curved sword goes, beware. If you have never faced an opponent who knows how to brandish the curved weapon then you are in for the shock of your life, never underestimate a curved weapon. As far as the life of a curved shenai, I have had mine for 8 years and they are as strong as the day I made them

[MikeW]

holy thread revival Batman! I don't know about your home made curved shinai but there are commercial ones made and they do not have the snap and flexibility of a regular shinai and actually do hurt a bit more as a result. If you have had one for 8 years I must assume you do not use it too regularly for jigeiko as most shinai wear out in at least 6 months of regular use. As far as a person using a curved shinai vs a normal one, it is the talent of the person using the weapon and not the weapon itself that makes the difference.

[b8amack]

Actually its very easy to do. Take apart the weapon, soak the planks in a bathtub overnight, place them in the shape best fitted to your needs and allow them to dry for a few days. putting them back together is the trick. I prefer 1 half plank and two full length for balance. Granted these are not official. Mine are held together on the handle with braided leather. and the heft of the blade with electrical tape. I have a leather tip.
The short plank is placed from the handle between the full length planks to about mid point. This gives them a nearly perfect balance when wielded.

I have both a 30" set and a full length 42" set. As I dual wield equal length weapons.


You all make me laugh. It hurts no less than a straight sword. Is easier to soak, and reset as a bent plank. Stop thinking in terms of having someone else do all the work. Be creative people.
As far as a curved sword goes, beware. If you have never faced an opponent who knows how to brandish the curved weapon then you are in for the shock of your life, never underestimate a curved weapon. As far as the life of a curved shenai, I have had mine for 8 years and they are as strong as the day I made them

You've never actually set foot in a kendo dojo, have you?

[DigitalDowntown]

You've never actually set foot in a kendo dojo, have you?
My thoughts exactly.

[IronWarrior]

Maybe he's a member of a McDojo instead.

[hl1978]

When I used a curved padded foam sword during a gekken seminar, it had all sorts of interesting effects. I really should have written a review when the subject matter was fresh in my mind, but the effects can be felt by using a bokken.

My first shinai was a freak of nature, I used it for 4 years and it never broke. I used it exclusively my first year, and rotated it among a few others for the next couple of years. I retired it evenually when I completely switched over to oval grip. I guess it lasted so long as I oiled it religiously and hit very lightly.

[tannim656]

attack your own inability to think outside the box, not another persons ability with a weapon, or Dojo!

Bring it anytime, I do not underestimate anybody, maybe you should learn the same - Course wisdom isn't something taught at a Dojo, that has to come from within does it not?

So before attacking my style or fact that I have been fighting for 20+ years nearly every day for up to 3 hours a day, attack your inability to be a wiser student of the form.

[Neil Gendzwill]

This is the kendo forum. We discuss kendo and related Japanese martial arts. Thinking outside of the box, at least the kendo box, not required. We are for the most part not interested in cross-training with whatever you are doing or incorporating it into kendo or whatever. I suggest you try swordforum (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forum.php) where there are a few people like yourself. Alternately, you could try thinking outside of your own box and give kendo a go. We'd be happy to help you find a dojo.

[MikeW]

Umm Tannim656, perhaps you didn't read my reply to your post.

[b8amack]

attack your own inability to think outside the box, not another persons ability with a weapon, or Dojo!

Bring it anytime, I do not underestimate anybody, maybe you should learn the same - Course wisdom isn't something taught at a Dojo, that has to come from within does it not?

So before attacking my style or fact that I have been fighting for 20+ years nearly every day for up to 3 hours a day, attack your inability to be a wiser student of the form.

I don't post the specs and virtues of my tennis racquet on a badminton forum.

As far as ability or inability, well, I made no mention of that whatsoever. Since you bring it up, though, your choice of words/phrases:


"Beware"


"I wield dual ______"

Those are the words of backyard ninjery.

[DigitalDowntown]

tannim656, It's comments like the ones below that make it quite obvious you do not do kendo. That doesn't mean you aren't experienced in other sword arts, but you clearly aren't doing kendo. This is a global community of kendo practitioners, don't act so surprised that your statements have been called out.


…Granted these are not official. Mine are held together on the handle with braided leather. and the heft of the blade with electrical tape….

…I have both a 30" set and a full length 42" set. As I dual wield equal length weapons….


…As far as the life of a curved shenai, I have had mine for 8 years and they are as strong as the day I made them

[Bob]

Curved shinai's would be crap because every time you went do and the person caught it with their elbow you would pull the leather off the tip every time. I screw people's loose shinai's like that all the time I cannot imagine a curved shinai.

[Lloromannic]

I have never seen that in my life.

[rfoxmich]

1. We _do_ do kata with curved swords and sword-like objects.
2. Not _all_ sword arts use Shinai (iaido e.g.).

Shinai are 'enineering compromises' in a compromise you give up something to get something. Kendo gave up a sword that has _all_ of the characteristics of a katana for the ability to practice with full contact and retain safety. For those of us that practice kendo for reasons other than competition, the key points are the mental development that comes about as a result of the interchange/communication with an opponent. For that I would argue that 100% realism is not all it's cracked up to be (thank god since 100% realism in a sword art also involves spilling a lot of blood guts and deaths among practitioners).

Just my grumpy Monday morning thoughts.



;39779']if all sword arts developed from kenjitsu then why did they have to alter the practice swords for Kendo into Shinai

[yoda-waza]

(7 year old thread - a record?) Kendo developed from persons who were versed in Japanese sword arts as they existed in the 19th century. How can a noob from the 21st century question why a shinai doesn't look the way they think it should? Galling ignorance, perhaps?